Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

[Rynjin]

Re: CR: I think that's more a fundamental difference in our interpretations of the CR system with groups we've played. Going by the guidelines you're right, but IME most characters can 1v1 tango with a creature of CR = APL at most levels beyond around 3rd, unless they're one of those overtuned monsters many parties would be hard pressed to fight, but I tend to play with mid-high op groups and 3rd party material, so my view may be a bit skewed.

And really, a lot of your suggestions are numbers boosters by another name. They're good workarounds for not having +X items, but really just boil down to having +X items which add up to the same numerical value in a different way.

Re: Games: Ah, that sucks. I'm east coast as well, actually, but it's already difficult juggling everyone else' schedules in that regard, so we don't even usually start games until around 8-9 PM EST.

[Nicos]

I work most weekends but late in the evening. Maybe I could join sometime early in the day perhaps? I'm an east coaster and gotta be at work at 5pm on most days.

Then you could try one of the PBP. I think there are only three players in lemmy's campaing.

[Lemmy]

Oh well. Maybe if we play together sometime, I'll include some sort of auto-scaling things for you.

EDIT: Would you be opposed to the method I presented earlier?

I'm OK with anything. Not using ABP isn't a deal breaker. It's just not my #1 prefered style... There are many other factors that I consider to be far more important than whether or not ABP is a thing.

The system I use for my games is a bit more complex than Paizo's and doesn't give weapon/armor enhancement bonuses,]

Basically, every level you gain one of the following benefits:

+1 deflection bonus to AC
+1 resistance bonus to all saves
+1 enhancement bonus to natural armor
+1 untyped bonus to all skills

You have to wait at least 3 levels before choosing the same bonus again, so over the course of 20 levels, you gain a +5 to each of them. There are a few alternative choices that characters can take in case they don't want one of these bonus (e.g.: Clerics with the Protection domain may have no use for the Resistance bonus).

Separately, everyone starts the game with a +0 enhancement bonus to all attributes. Every even-numbered level, you increase the bonus to 2 attributes by +1. And you can't boost the same attributes twice in a row. So you can end up with a max +5 enhancement bonus to 4 attributes... And at level 20 you gain an +1 increase to the enhancement bonus of all attributes, including the ones you choose to raise at 20th level. so you'll probably end up with a +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1 set of enhancement bonuses to attributes.

I kept the same types of bonus just to avoid unforeseen stacking, but I consider them to be part of the character, so they don't disappear in things like anti-magic fields.

(These changes only replace RoP, AoNA, CoR and attribute boosting belts & headbands - Inherent bonuses and everything else are completely untouched).

[catman04221985]

I'm OK with anything. Not using ABP isn't a deal breaker. It's just not my #1 prefered style... There are many other factors that I consider to be far more important than whether or not ABP is a thing.

The system I use for my games is a bit more complex than Paizo's and doesn't give weapon/armor enhancement bonuses,]

Basically, every level you gain one of the following benefits:

+1 deflection bonus to AC
+1 resistance bonus to all saves
+1 enhancement bonus to natural armor
+1 untyped bonus to all skills

You have to wait at least 3 levels before choosing the same bonus again, so over the course of 20 levels, you gain a +5 to each of them. There are a few alternative choices that characters can take in case they don't want one of these bonus (e.g.: Clerics with the Protection domain may have no use for the Resistance bonus).

Separately, everyone starts the game with a +0 enhancement bonus to all attributes. Every even-numbered level, you increase the bonus to 2 attributes by +1. And you can't boost the same attributes twice in a row. So you can end up with a max +5 enhancement bonus to 4 attributes... And at level 20 you gain an +1 increase to the enhancement bonus of all attributes, including the ones you choose to raise at 20th level. so you'll probably end up with a +6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1 set of enhancement bonuses to attributes.

I kept the same types of bonus just to avoid unforeseen stacking, but I consider them to be part of the character, so they don't disappear in things like anti-magic fields.

(These changes only replace RoP, AoNA, CoR and attribute boosting belts & headbands - Inherent bonuses and everything else are completely untouched).

That sounds very interesting.

[Ashiel]

Re: CR: I think that's more a fundamental difference in our interpretations of the CR system with groups we've played. Going by the guidelines you're right, but IME most characters can 1v1 tango with a creature of CR = APL at most levels beyond around 3rd, unless they're one of those overtuned monsters many parties would be hard pressed to fight, but I tend to play with mid-high op groups and 3rd party material, so my view may be a bit skewed.

Our groups sound similar at least, which is good (mid-high op, expanded content). But, consider this. A mirror match with the PC would be an equal CR encounter. In such a situation, the PC would have probably a 50% chance to be killed (since they would be dead even), and the game is designed to not result in a TPK 50% of the time (because otherwise you'd not get very far).

But that leads to another thing. The example I gave assumed the Fighter didn't really have anything beyond some utility/buff items. No big-six, and I forgot to add the masterwork bonus from his weapon too, so he would have been completely handicapped, and against an equal-CR giant he was still in a very nice position. Now imagine if you will, an optimized character, and see again that the claim that "you absolutely need these" seems even further away given the circumstances. For me, I see it as a luxury of sorts. Nice to have but not really necessary when a bit of know-how.

Put another way, the hypothetical fighter on a very cheap budget of utility items (boots of speed and a 50 gp oil at 10th level) is reliably able to solo a giant of equal CR in a few rounds without backup, and within the desired parameters you specified (3-4 rounds). Naturally a more optimized hero (even if that was simply making him a Paladin or Ranger really) could do that and more, arguably with even less. This scenario actually seems a better example of why big-6 is actually fairly optional most of the time (or at least minimal).

Now if the problem is that to somehow compensate for more optimized characters you are inflating CRs much beyond the intended norms for encounters, then of course you're going to see disparity between their raw numbers get harder to deal with, and expecting a lower level character to overpower a higher level character in a one-on-one fight seems rather optimistic at best and rather cruel at worst.

I suppose I'm just curious as to what exactly the goal is? What are you aiming for exactly and how does that influence your views?

And really, a lot of your suggestions are numbers boosters by another name. They're good workarounds for not having +X items, but really just boil down to having +X items which add up to the same numerical value in a different way.

Well I mean, naturally different spells and effects will have some effect on your character, but most of what I mentioned (at least in the fighter example) was effect-based. They did provide some static bonuses (such as improved hit and CMB) but the real winners of the effects were things like the added speed and increased weapon damage (the reach to compensate for fighting the giant is also a nice touch, otherwise you'd risk an opportunity attack unless you wanted to play action games with a tower shield - something I totally recommend in a pinch), and the bonuses they provided stack with the big-6 anyway so there's a deficit either way.

Lots of itemization involves effects that don't specifically raise statistics at all, such as items that grant resistances or immunities to whole attack types (such as poison immunity, immunity to mind control, immunity to negative energy, high amounts of energy resistance) or allow you to do something you couldn't before (such as teleporting, or seeing in the dark, or suddenly gaining a minion).

There's also the game aspect. If you can have your cake and eat it too, it removes an element of strategy and prioritization. For example, we've already seen that the Fighter can wreck the giant without lots of raw stat boosts and just some utility items, but of course the fighter could just have all the raw stat modifiers and the neat powers, but then that sort of takes the nuance out of it a bit, since you're assured to always have the best raw stats available. Put another way, if I don't have to choose between different effects, the choice feels less important. That may be seen as a pro for some of course. For me specifically, I like the give and take.

Re: Games: Ah, that sucks. I'm east coast as well, actually, but it's already difficult juggling everyone else' schedules in that regard, so we don't even usually start games until around 8-9 PM EST.

Oddly enough that might actually work out better? I mostly just work dinner shifts so it's not uncommon for me to be home by 9pm.

[Zilrax]

Inb4 one day we have an Ask Ashiel Anything Game.

[Lemmy]

Inb4 one day we have an Ask Ashiel Anything Game.

I've been pestering Ashiel for about 6 years now... Still no response . Now, I understand Ash (understandably) has issues with the owners of Roll20 (they are *******s), but like it or not, it's still the most practical and accessible free plataform around, AFAIK.

[Ashiel]

I've been pestering Ashiel for about 6 years now... Still no response . Now, I understand Ash (understandably) has issues with the owners of Roll20 (they are *******s), but like it or not, it's still the most practical and accessible free plataform around, AFAIK.

I adore Maptool personally.

[Nicos]

Now, I understand Ash (understandably) has issues with the owners of Roll20 (they are *******s)

[Ashiel]

They're a bunch of racists, sexists, and discriminate against people based on sexuality.

[Zilrax]

Nothing wrong with maptools really besides being kinda old. Starfinder game of mines on roll20 but it's what it is. Certainly not arguing about the owners though, I'm familiar with at least one story out of this mess.

[Tels]

I've seen it mentioned a few times in the last few pages of people running NPC classed games. Anyone care to go into more detail on that?

For 5+ years now (since that 'Petition to hire Ashiel' thread) I've wanted to run a kind-of a video game-esque zombie survival game using NPC classes. The idea being I would create many different NPC builds, giving them titles like, The Noble, The Guard, The Harlot, The Thug, and so on, each with a small backstory that has interactions with people and oragnizations from around a town. Then the players choose their avatar, and then they would play out the game starting with the outbreak of a zombie plague that results in the city being quarantined by surrounding governments. Kind of like Left4Dead, Dying Light, or State of Decay.

Never really put a lot of serious effort into it, because there's never been the right time to start it, but I've worked on it off and on over the years. Making a new character here, a new gang there, looking up psuedo-plausible places one might find ingredients for gun powder or essential materials for healing potions and so on.

Anyway, I was wondering what you guys did with your NPC class games? If you have any suggestions for encounters or plots for this sandbox game, I'm also all ears.

[Nicos]

I once DMed a brief pbp NPC game.

The players were teenagers. One of them won money competition in a carnival (archery and obstacle racing). Then the father of the second PC was very sick, and since they were poor and could not afford the tretment they went into robbery. Another player was the daughter of the "mayor" but was bored with her life and scaped from home at every opportunity.

[Ashiel]

I've seen it mentioned a few times in the last few pages of people running NPC classed games. Anyone care to go into more detail on that?

For 5+ years now (since that 'Petition to hire Ashiel' thread) I've wanted to run a kind-of a video game-esque zombie survival game using NPC classes. The idea being I would create many different NPC builds, giving them titles like, The Noble, The Guard, The Harlot, The Thug, and so on, each with a small backstory that has interactions with people and oragnizations from around a town. Then the players choose their avatar, and then they would play out the game starting with the outbreak of a zombie plague that results in the city being quarantined by surrounding governments. Kind of like Left4Dead, Dying Light, or State of Decay.

Never really put a lot of serious effort into it, because there's never been the right time to start it, but I've worked on it off and on over the years. Making a new character here, a new gang there, looking up psuedo-plausible places one might find ingredients for gun powder or essential materials for healing potions and so on.

Anyway, I was wondering what you guys did with your NPC class games? If you have any suggestions for encounters or plots for this sandbox game, I'm also all ears.

There's a few things about NPC games.

1. They are low powered. You're much weaker than PC classed characters and NPCs are built using 3 PB instead of the standard 15 (pity da foo' that can't handle less than 20). Your classes are warrior, expert, and adept.

2. They are very simple and fast. They harken back to the days of yore when there was basically fighter, thief, and magic user (adept sort of fills mage and cleric roles). There's no class features to deal with, and if a character dies making a new one takes less than 10 minutes.

3. You're the everyman. Everything is potentially dangerous. A one on one fight with a goblin warrior? Yeah, that's an APL+4 encounter without your friends for backup. Brute forcing things is rarely much of an option, especially early on.

There's also lots of variants you can use.

A. By default NPCs use average HP at low levels too. You might decide to start with more HP but the lethality is part of the appeal (stuff is scary and you'll want to pick and choose your fights).

B. You could use Variant Multiclassing or Spheres of Power/Might to add more complexity.

C. You could let adepts choose different spell lists so they're not all the same (but the default adept is okay too because it has a mixture of spells). Or let adepts choose domain spells similar to how clerics used to get spheres.

[Ashiel]

Further speaking about an NPC game, the scale of things is pretty wildly different. I made mention of the goblin in the previous post, but to give some more examples, let's take your run of the mill zombie.

A typical 1st level human zombie made out of a commoner (not even a warrior) has 3d8+3 (16 hp), +2 BAB, +1 Strength, DR 5/slashing, 11 AC naked, and a 1d6+1 slam attack with a +3 to hit. That's quite a frightful beast when you're operating on 3 PB and have 3, 4, or 5 base hit points before Constitution modifiers.

Hazards are pretty dangerous too. That 1d6 damage from falling 10ft. can be quite dangerous even from full HP.

Tactics and strategy tend to be very important. Positioning so you're providing your adepts +4 cover bonuses to AC at all times is good. Making use of terrain for high ground bonuses, cover, or concealment are especially important.

A Note on Leveling
Another thing worth mentioning is that in Pathfinder, every 2 levels of an NPC class are considered to be worth 1 of a PC class for CR. As a result, you might consider allowing characters to level faster (requiring half the XP to reach next level as an equivalent regular character). Leveling frequently isn't much of an issue in these sorts of games because of the simplicity of NPC classes (add some HP, BAB, Saves, Skill Ranks, Spell Slots, done), and can give a nice sense of progression regularly.

Further, it means you could extend into fighting higher level foes as regular adventurers would, by going into epic NPC levels (such as level 40 warriors, experts, and adepts vs CR 20 encounters).

You can do what you want as far as treasure is concerned but I'd generally just award as much treasure as normal for any challenges that the party overcomes.

[Tels]

Stat and level wise these characters will all be 7th level, and they will use the Heroic NPC stat array. One other thing I will change is that Adepts will gain access to spells at a similar large level to that of the 6th level casters, i.e. 2nd level spells at 4th level, 3rd level spells at 7th level etc. This is mostly to keep the characters within the range of "zombies are still a threat," but also meaty enough to survive, while also giving the Adepts access to 3rd level spells.

I want them to be able survive attacks from small groups of zombies, while being threatened by them. Maybe even put a dent in large horde if they use their limited AoE abilities, like The Noble who is an amateur tinkerer and alchemist with a small supply of black powder and alchemist fire, or The Priest with a limited ability to unleash a wave of holy energy, or wield bolts of lightning, and The Thug with her ability to cleave through all enemies within her reach.

Each character is designed to have a different style of combat, and/or bring a different level of utility to the group. For example, The Soldier and The Thug are both Warriors, but The Soldier is sword and board with more health, while The Thug has less AC, and health, but deals more damage and has Great Cleave; or The Noble and The Woodsman who are both ranged attackers, but The Noble uses a pistol and alchemy while The Woodsman uses a longbow and Vital Strike.

So, while they are "NPCs" they are also "PC-NPCs" at the same time. Some of the normal rules won't apply.

I should also add this isn't meant to be a full campaign, maybe something to play off and on during Halloween/the Fall, of whenever the moment strikes us. Or maybe when some of the group can't make it and use this to fill.

[Ashiel]

Sounds pretty neat. NPC games are definitely pretty flexible.

I'm also writing up the points I want to go over concerning building encounters before I try turning it into a youtube video, so I'll post it for you guys to check out before I start on the video.

[Ashiel]

Building Encounters by Ashiel
Building encounters is one aspect of 3.x/Pathfinder that feels most daunting, even for experienced GMs. A big part of that is the illusion of complexity. However, in this guide I hope to show you that building encounters can be simple, easy, and even fun in its own right. Whether you're writing your own adventure path or doing some frantic prep ten minutes before the game starts, you may find this guide useful.

Encounter Concepts
Encounters usually begin with a concept or idea that leads to it. It might be as simple as you have a room in a dungeon you want to fill (such as the king's kennel), or maybe a monster you want to use (you always wanted to use a beholder but never have), or maybe an environment you want to showcase (such as a fight on a bridge), or maybe you're simply writing an adventure and need some more encounters to entertain the players with while pacing the story (such as wanting some more action before the final act). In the end it doesn't really matter, because no matter where you start from the end goal is a fun encounter or series of encounters.

Step 1 - Challenge Roadmap
When building adventures, don't worry about things like specific challenge ratings of an encounter. Rather, decide on relative challenges and map your adventure like that. For example, the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game defines an encounter of APL (average party level) -1 as an "Easy" encounter, APL+0 as "Average", APL+1 as "Challenging", APL+2 as "Hard", APL+3 as "Epic", and so on. That's how I recommend planning out your encounters.

For example, you might decide that the pace of your adventure is intended to go "easy", "easy", "hard", "average", "epic". It's nice to know ahead of time how strong an encounter should be before you start putting the pieces together. Not every fight should be a struggle for survival and not every fight should be a cakewalk either.

Step 2 - Encounter Palette
A useful tool that I like having on hand is a "Encounter palette". This would be an assortment of monsters or NPCs that I can build the encounter out of. For example, if I am running an adventure with lots of orcs, this might include classed orcs (NPC or Heroic), and creatures that they would have with them (such as perhaps war hounds or mounts) and their experience values. Traps and hazards (such as pit traps or brown mold) can be handled the same way. A simple encounter palette might look something like this.

Orcs warrior (no wealth, 100 XP), adept (no wealth, 100 XP), warrior (135 XP), adept (135 XP), barbarian (200 XP), cleric (200 XP), 4th level fighter (800 XP), 4th level cleric (800 XP)
Animals riding dog (400 XP), boar (600 XP)
Traps oil brazier (200 XP), pit trap (400 XP), wall spikes (400 XP), collapsing stones (400 XP)

As with many of the steps in this guide, an encounter palette isn't required but it's very useful, especially for building encounters on the fly. I would strongly encourage GMs to put together a few encounter palettes when building your adventures. It can save you a lot of time later on and is an invaluable tool if you have to add an encounter to the game in a hurry.

If you're building around a theme and want your encounter to scale very well, consider including similar but progressively stronger foes on your palette. If you intend for an encounter to include canine enemies, you might have an encounter palette that has dogs, wolves, riding dogs, worgs, hell hounds, and winter wolves. This is especially useful when you're planning out fun encounters and you don't yet know when (or what level) you will be running the encounter.

Step 3 - Encounter Budgets
Pathfinder drastically simplified building encounters compared to the instructions in the 3.x DMG. Basically you pick a challenge rating for the encounter and that gives you your experience budget. This is where the first two steps come in handy. Let's say our party's average level is 3rd. We want to run a "Hard" encounter so we set the CR at 5 (APL+2). This gives us an XP budget of 1600 XP. We then use this XP budget to "buy" enemies and hazards from our palette until we run out of XP. The value doesn't have to be exact but should be as close as you can get them (three CR 1/3 creatures is 405 XP, so they're a good mix for a CR 1 encounter with a 400 XP budget).

Scaling Budgets: The game is balanced around the idea of a 4 person party. You can quickly scale an encounter up or down by increasing the base budget value by 25% for each additional party member, or reducing it by 25% for each fewer party member. For example, if we had a party of six heroes we would use the same CR 5 encounter as in the previous example, except we increase the XP budget by 50% (+25% for each party member) giving us a total budget of 2400 XP. However, if the party was only 2 people we would instead have only 800 XP worth of enemies. The net result is it's still the equivalent of a CR 5 encounter for our heroes.

If you haven't already realized how step 1 and 2 help with step 3, especially for building an entire adventure, now's a good time to break it down. Basically, you can quickly throw together interesting encounters for a variety of party levels and environments, without having to map out every detail ahead of time. You can throw together combinations of monsters and traps and hazards seemingly instantly, or build entire encounters moments before your party enters the next room. You can quickly scale up encounters if more friends come over (adding more enemies), or quickly scale encounters down if not everyone could make it (reducing the number of enemies or adding weaker tiers off your palette).

Voila, you can quickly make encounters on the fly. Next, let's discuss how to make those encounters more engaging and interesting.

Encounter Environment
A big part of coming up with the concepts for your encounter should probably be the environment of the encounter. You can take the same group of orcs and by changing the location, change the entire encounter. For example, fighting orcs in a tavern will be a drastically different experience than fighting them on a craggy cliff-side or in the mires of a swamp.

When I use the term "environment", I mean everything that isn't specifically an NPC and how it relates to the encounter. In many cases the enemies of the encounter aren't as important to the encounter being memorable and interesting as the environment. In some cases, the encounter itself is an excuse to show off the environment itself.

For example, once when running a campaign, the party was caught in a pincer-attack between two towers high in the sky in the middle of a thunderstorm. The enemies at this point were essentially the rank and file goons they had become accustomed to fighting earlier in the adventure, but now they were hundreds of feet in the air, wind and rain whipping around them, and the ominous bolt of lightning cracking around them as the way forward and back was blocked by the goons. In this encounter, it wasn't the creatures that were the attraction but the very scene itself.

An environment can add lots of neat elements for players and their enemies to use to their advantage. In a tavern brawl, players and NPCs can turn over tables to create cover for them and their allies, or perhaps attempt to collapse segments of the upstairs by breaking wooden pillars. On a rope bridge over a chasm, the bridge may be severed and throw unfortunates into the valley below. A simple forest is often filled with sources of cover and concealment and may be noticeably darker than the time of day would indicate depending on the thickness of the canopy. Even unnatural environments such as a worked stone floor covered in oil can make for quite the interesting situation as enemies and allies have to move carefully and make acrobatics checks to avoid falling down.

Not Your Daddy's Traps
I generally include traps as part of the environment. You can drop traps into an environment just like monsters with your experience budgets, and the trap mechanics work quite well for creating "natural" hazards that aren't literally traps. For example, if there's a bunch of logs bound in rope, a clever player or a devious NPC may attempt to severe the ropes and send logs tumbling in a direction towards his or her enemies, or much the same with a brazier of burning oil, and these things can be easily represented with traps.

If neither side has a specific advantage concerning traps, you might include a few into the encounter "for free" and see which side makes use of them first. For example, you might place a lone ballista on an unmanned watchtower or rampart during an encounter with the orcs. The ballista in this case might be a CR 2 Javalin trap (+15 atk, 1d6+6 dmg) but it doesn't do anything until someone runs up and spends a round activating it, at which point they pick an enemy in the trap's firing arc and let it rip. If you're giving the party a homefield advantage (such as giving them the ballista first) you could provide extra enemies equal to the value of the traps in they have to leverage against their foes. This can be a great excuse to use a few higher powered monsters than you otherwise would.

For example, you might include three such ballista or maybe pots of burning oil during a siege. Maybe the traps on your party's side are worth a combined total of 1600 XP. You could add 1600 XP worth of enemies from your encounter palette to the enemy team as additional troops or monsters and it'll balance out, since they could use things like the ballista to shoot down an ogre and oil to pour on masses of orcs.

This is also a great way to give players some ways to turn a fight. Perhaps a goblin normally mans one of those ballista, but a sneaky rogue quietly takes out the goblin and takes over the trap his or herself, turning the advantage the orcs would have had into the party's advantage, in much the same way that a charm person would have turned an enemy into an ally.

Recommended House Rule: I recommend ignoring the minimum CR of 1 on traps, especially as it pertains to traps that don't inflict damage. A trap that causes people to slip and fall down, or that rings a bell to make noise but doesn't otherwise threaten anyone shouldn't be worth the same XP as a trap that's going to drop you into a pit of spikes or shove a spear through your chest. As such, I would allow traps to go into fractional CRs just like enemies (so a bell on a string might have a -1 for low detection DC, -1 for low disable DC, -2 for low attack bonus for a CR 1/6, so the bell's worth 65 XP to "survive").

You can even make "traps" that are aren't meant to cause damage. You can get pretty cute with the way traps work, especially since traps can often mimic spells without actually being magical. A catapult that hurls people in a general direction similar to a telekinesis spell could be used to leap around the battlefield or over enemies, while shooting holes in beer barrels might be equivalent to activating a grease trap in the nearby area as the booze spills out all over the floor and makes it slippery.

In these cases, finding traps can be be quite amusing and helpful. Being able to spot some of these "traps" would effectively be attuned to your environment enough that you see something that can be exploited. For example, if the party entered a room with the orcs and "checked for traps" they might notice that the corks on the barrels of ale could grease the floors, or that the huge iron chandelier is held aloft by a single rope tied to one of the walls and is actually a CR 5 falling block trap. It'd be a darn shame of someone were to cut it when the ogre was underneath it.

Final Thoughts
More than anything be dynamic. You don't have to make every fight super interesting. Sometimes you just want to crack some goblin skulls in a quick throw-away encounter. However, keep some of these things in mind (and a handy palette or five) and you can turn even a lowly random encounter in an otherwise featureless location into something quite magical.

[Lemmy]

Those are cool thoughts and all, Ash... But I think you overestimate the CR system. It isn't really precise enough to measure the threat of an encounter with any accuracy greater than "It's more or less this much of a challenge... Give or take 2~4 levels". At least IME, it's okay(-ish) at evaluating the threat level of "brute"-like monsters, but that's about it. When spell-casting and the more exotic abilities come into play, the CR measurement becomes more about GM's experience and gut feeling than actual math. Specially if an enemy includes any sort of SoL effect.

It''s like you're attempting to draw a perfectly straight line of a very specific length, but the ruler Paizo gave you has wavy edges and varying measurements for what constitutes a centimeter.

Still, that's a great post. I really admire and appreciate the reasoning and insight.

[Ashiel]

Those are cool thoughts and all, Ash... But I think you overestimate the CR system. It isn't really precise enough to measure the threat of an encounter with any accuracy greater than "It's more or less this much of a challenge... Give or take 2~4 levels". At least IME, it's okay(-ish) at evaluating the threat level of "brute"-like monsters, but that's about it. When the spell-casting and the more exotic abilities come into play, the CR measurement becomes more about GM's experience and gut feeling than actual math. Specially if an enemy includes any sort of SoL effect.

It''s like you're attempting to draw a perfectly straight line of a very specific length, but the ruler Paizo gave you has wavy edges and varying measurements for what constitutes a centimeter.

Still, that's a great post. I really admire and appreciate the reasoning and insight.

I really do have to GM for you guys sometime.

Picture relevant.


EDIT:

Specially if an enemy includes any sort of SoL effect.

Reminds me of the time my players entered a room with three psychic warrior mummies. Ahhh, gotta love those auras. The basilisks a few rooms down were a hoot too.

[Lemmy]

Oh, I don't doubt you can make an CR-appropriate encounter that is balanced and/or challenging. I'm merely pointing out that the CR system is... Let's go with "imprecise".

BTW, for some reason, I can't open the image you linked.

[Ashiel]

Oh, I don't doubt you can make an CR-appropriate encounter that is balanced and/or challenging. I'm merely pointing out that the CR system is... Let's go with "imprecise".

BTW, for some reason, I can't open the image you linked.

Yeah it stopped working for me too for some reason. I thought it was just me ('cause it was working before). Lemme try something else.

Image Link Maybe?

EDIT: I guess it depends on your definition of "balanced". My encounters are sometimes made of hate and a lot of folks would call all manner of foul but my players keep begging for more. Like that time I had the party fight harpies on an airship a hundred feet or so off the ground. Gotta love that siren song.

[Zilrax]

It works if you remove the i. from the start of the address.

I'd say cr, a few monsters are "off" for their cr. Succubi, witchfires etc. But most the time it's more that pcs may not be up to the challenge because it's possible to play or build chars badly. Also how much the players decide to put themselves into tactical cooperation. There's a lot of factors.

Also dragon girl in picture pleases me. Hurray for dargon harpies.

[Rynjin]

I really do have to GM for you guys sometime.

Please do!

I could even make do with a PbP on this site, though the game is much harder to play here than on Paizo. Not as bad as trying to do PbP on myth-Weavers' site though at least.

[Ashiel]

Also dragon girl in picture pleases me. Hurray for dargon harpies.

She's actually a baby red dragon wearing a limited shapeshifting ring. Kooky story as the pale woman with the white hair (whose token I'm currently using for my forum avatar) is her adoptive mother, who is actually a white wyrm trapped in human form by a variant baleful polymorph cast by a coven of witches in her homeland. She has a sister as well who's the natural daughter of the white dragon and carries the same curse.

It's a quite tangled affair to be certain. The love each other very much, the white dragon daughter murdered their father and is really guilty about that, and the mother really dislikes being weak and becoming more and more human in her mannerisms and mindset, and was reminded quite fiercely that she's not what she once was (the party faced off against a CR 9 dragon-beastie and her mother got wrecked, despite being the strongest NPC in the game the party is familiar with). In her real form she would have ate him, but she was brutally overpowered by the larger wyrm in her human form.

There's a short story involving her sister Varis and their father.

[Florian]

I'd say cr, a few monsters are "off" for their cr. Succubi, witchfires etc. But most the time it's more that pcs may not be up to the challenge because it's possible to play or build chars badly. Also how much the players decide to put themselves into tactical cooperation. There's a lot of factors.

CR is only a rough guideline of what performance could be expected. It´s not so hard to see that some creatures come equipped with abilities that make them unsuitable as "equal encounters", often because a regular party lacks the means to deal with the consequences. That makes the difference between creating "generic encounters" vs. tailoring them to the party doubly meaningful, with the first often becoming ridiculously and the later becoming too hard when you miscalculated (You know, like thinking "Oh, I know my players, someone will bring antidote and either splash weapons or area damage spells, so that poisonous swarm is ok")

[Ashiel]

CR is only a rough guideline of what performance could be expected. It´s not so hard to see that some creatures come equipped with abilities that make them unsuitable as "equal encounters", often because a regular party lacks the means to deal with the consequences.

There's a few that are questionable, but I usually notice monsters being underpowered rather than overpowered. That's actually why I rewrote a few monsters like gnolls, mariliths, and balors.

That makes the difference between creating "generic encounters" vs. tailoring them to the party doubly meaningful, with the first often becoming ridiculously and the later becoming too hard when you miscalculated

Fun fact. I don't ever tailor encounters to my party, as a rule. There are several reasons I don't, but the main ones are...

• Allows my players choices of character to be meaningful.
• Prevents any possibility of metagaming (as player or GM).
• Encourages players to have opportunities to try different things organically.
• Means I write the adventure, not the party.

(You know, like thinking "Oh, I know my players, someone will bring antidote and either splash weapons or area damage spells, so that poisonous swarm is ok")

Heh, well see, that's the beauty of it. If they don't, then that's their problem. If they do, they will be rewarded for doing so. If they don't, they might think to do so next time because they learned and gained some real experience from the encounter. If you're GMing for a bunch of newbies, you could use the Baldur's Gate approach and include a few choice consumables in treasure hoards if you want to give them a hint.

But I let them lie in the beds they make. I mean, what you describe is IMHO functionally equivalent to not buying a ranged weapon and then complaining that you fought flying foes or foes shooting at you across a chasm. Poison is a thing, so you'll be rewarded for preparing for it when it comes up (antitoxins and potions of delay poison are only 50 gp). Swarms are a thing, so having a few scrolls of CL 5 burning hands might be a good idea if you don't want to prepare something yourself.

I have no qualms what-so-ever about using things like swarms, poison, or even Shadows against even 1st level parties (a shadow is CR 3, which puts it within APL+3 range for a 1st level party). Had a great game where a PC dove out a window when a shadow emerged from a mirror and he forgot to pack an oil of magic weapon or similar.

[Ashiel]

Also it occurs to me that sources of monsters tend to matter. I get most of my monsters from the Bestiary/MM, and I hold their general power range to be pretty on point. When in doubt, I generally compare to how strong an equal level PC would be expected to be, since having PCs face priests and mages is fair game after all. I'm more likely to buff an interesting but lackluster monster than I am to nerf one by a pretty large margin.

That said, not all sources are created equal. The Monster Manual 2 in the 3.x days is notorious for having really badly designed monsters that appear to have their CRs picked with a dartboard and a few shots of Jack Daniels. But as mentioned, if it's nothing worse than a good PC can bring to the table I've no qualms with it.

Compare for example the Succubus (one of my favorite monsters in the books because of how many ways you can use them as a GM). The succubus is quite strong at what she does, but her edge is quickly dulled when the party casts protection from evil or its equivalent, which negates her most dangerous tricks outright (her ultra-high DC charm, dominate, and suggestion SLAs). Similarly, at CR 7, she's not particularly more frightening than an 8th level NPC cleric or wizard (who while having lower save DCs tend to have other benefits like hoards of animated undead minions, summoned monsters, battlefield control, and immunities to choice spells).

[Ashiel]

Though unrelated to the CR thing specifically, I'm reminded of a post that I think Lemmy wrote concerning the descriptions of some of my games back on the Paizo forums. It was often a point of contention among some because there are many things that many GMs and even players thought were broken and not suitable to see the light of play, and yet all of them were complaining about how troubled the balance in their games were and weren't sure how to deal with X/Y/Z (after generally banning things that contribute against those problems amusingly enough).

If memory serves, Lemmy remarked that there was something a bit fascinating about how often I find the game runs well while letting the game be pushed so hard. I believe the conversation involved my suggesting planar binding and simulacrum to be effective means of supporting parties at higher levels, when discussing with Bob Loblaw about his party's high level woes (if I recall they didn't have enough healers and such in a very Fighter-heavy party, but they did have a wizard or some equivalent). For example, having a pocket efreeti basically serves much the same purposes as running back to town to get spellcasting services, because an efreeti's save DCs and caster level with wish are extremely low, even for their CR, which makes them less ideal as combat minions and more ideal for things like healing, removing bad effects on your party, raising someone that got gibed, or transporting the party around). I think I had suggested a simulacrum of a planetar or solar would be a similar alternative since they have a lot of at-will support stuff.

Thinking back on it, I do sometimes get the impression that maybe the sand doesn't fall out of my hands because I'm not squeezing very hard.

[Ashiel]

Succubi, witchfires etc.

Emphasis added.

Two words. Vital Strike.