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  1. - Top - End - #1051
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Heh, well see, that's the beauty of it. If they don't, then that's their problem.
    +1.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    But I let them lie in the beds they make. I mean, what you describe is IMHO functionally equivalent to not buying a ranged weapon and then complaining that you fought flying foes or foes shooting at you across a chasm. Poison is a thing, so you'll be rewarded for preparing for it when it comes up (antitoxins and potions of delay poison are only 50 gp). Swarms are a thing, so having a few scrolls of CL 5 burning hands might be a good idea if you don't want to prepare something yourself.
    This sounds very familar somehow...

  2. - Top - End - #1052
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Tangentially, that's why I don't like the design of the rangers favorite enemy class feature.

    The usefulness of the ability just depend too much if the DM choose to use or not to use the ranger favorite enemies, And while the same can be said to smite evil, at least evil enemiers are a bigger subset of the monster manual.

    Also, somehow learning to fight gnomes takes the same amount of practice that learning to fight the infinite amount of species of evil outsiders out there.
    Last edited by Nicos; 2019-02-01 at 10:22 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #1053
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicos View Post
    Tangentially, that's why I don't like the design of the rangers favorite enemy class feature.

    The usefulness of the ability just depend too much if the DM choose to use or not to use the ranger favorite enemies, And while the same can be said to smite evil, at least evil enemiers are a bigger subset of the monster manual.

    Also, somehow learning to fight gnomes takes the same amount of practice that learning to fight the infinite amount of species of evil outsiders out there.
    Gnomes are tricky like that.

    I concur however. One of the reasons I really love instant enemy which was one of the best buffs rangers have ever been offered. Generally speaking rangers are actually best served picking monstrous creature subtypes such as Outsider (evil), Undead, Construct, Magical Beast, etc. Also if you have a meta-gaming GM who avoids using monsters you're stronger than, you can snicker and know you're actually narrowing the pool of enemies you actually have to worry about.
    You are my God.

  4. - Top - End - #1054
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicos View Post
    Heh, well see, that's the beauty of it. If they don't, then that's their problem.
    +1.
    But I let them lie in the beds they make. I mean, what you describe is IMHO functionally equivalent to not buying a ranged weapon and then complaining that you fought flying foes or foes shooting at you across a chasm. Poison is a thing, so you'll be rewarded for preparing for it when it comes up (antitoxins and potions of delay poison are only 50 gp). Swarms are a thing, so having a few scrolls of CL 5 burning hands might be a good idea if you don't want to prepare something yourself.
    This sounds very familar somehow...
    I've probably said something similar in the past, or maybe someone else came to the same conclusions. Just playing the game well is usually more important than what your stats are most of the time, and players are not entitled to win every encounter (incidentally caltrops make a great deterrent when you need to make a hasty retreat, especially against monsters who rarely if ever wear shoes).

    Sometimes though, it might just be a good idea to run away if you forgot to pack your sunscreen. Most of the time there's no harm in doing so.
    You are my God.

  5. - Top - End - #1055
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    Ashiel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Well, having thought about it for a bit, I might be able to run a one shot or short string of adventures for you guys if interested.

    If I was to run a game, is there anything you'd like to do or explore? Is there any campaign setting you'd prefer?

    I'll see if I can find some time that might work.
    Last edited by Ashiel; 2019-02-01 at 02:03 PM.
    You are my God.

  6. - Top - End - #1056
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Low blood pressure and the hottest summer in 30 years got me home early today... I generally prefer not to leave early, as I have some freedom in choosing my hours, and I'm supposed to set a good example... But when it gets to the point where I'm barely able to stand up and my sight is beginning to blur, I think it's OK to give myself a break...

    By all gods... I f***ing hate summer!
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-02-01 at 03:15 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #1057
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Low blood pressure and the hottest summer in 30 years got em home early today... I generally prefer not to leave early, as I have some freedom in choosing my hours, and I'm supposed to set a good example... But when it gets to the point where I'm barely able to stand up and my sight is beginning to blur, I think it's OK to give myself a break...

    By all gods... I f***ing hate summer!
    Heat stroke is no joke. Take care of yourself so you can keep setting a good example, instead of setting a good example of what not to do.
    You are my God.

  8. - Top - End - #1058
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Well, having thought about it for a bit, I might be able to run a one shot or short string of adventures for you guys if interested.

    If I was to run a game, is there anything you'd like to do or explore? Is there any campaign setting you'd prefer?

    I'll see if I can find some time that might work.
    I have always wanted to play a Dark Sun campaign, myself.

    If we do standard fantasy, I prefer Golarion and Greyhawk over Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-02-01 at 02:57 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #1059
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Heat stroke is no joke. Take care of yourself so you can keep setting a good example, instead of setting a good example of what not to do.
    Thanks.

    And... Well... Considering I have a degree in Occupational Safety and Health and that instructing employees on safety protocols and personal care are part of my job, I felt that leaving early when I'm unable to work safely was a good example to set.

    Now... If someone can turn down the sun for the next 2~3 months, I'd be grateful...
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-02-01 at 03:15 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #1060
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Well, having thought about it for a bit, I might be able to run a one shot or short string of adventures for you guys if interested.

    If I was to run a game, is there anything you'd like to do or explore? Is there any campaign setting you'd prefer?

    I'll see if I can find some time that might work.
    As long as it isn't Dragonlance, I'm OK with anything... I actually prefer homebrew settings, as it gives a greater sense of mystery and discovery while allowing more freedom to the GM.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-02-01 at 03:15 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #1061
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    As long as it isn't Dragonlance, I'm OK with anything... I actually prefer homebrew settings, as it gives a greater sense of mystery and discovery while allowing more freedom to the GM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin
    I have always wanted to play a Dark Sun campaign, myself.

    If we do standard fantasy, I prefer Golarion and Greyhawk over Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance.
    Maybe I'll write up a primer for my regular campaign and pitch the lore and see if anyone might like that.

    As for Dark Sun, I've never GM'd Dark Sun, so I'd need to check out the major differences lore wise but I don't suspect it would be too far out of the way. As I recall, arcane magic is pretty much a no-go because it sucks the life out of the planet or somesuch and is the reason the world's a barren wasteland, which has a pretty heavy impact on what people can play, but maybe that's desirable in some situations.

    EDIT: If it were dragonlance, it would have to take place in a time period after Kender went extinct and are beyond true resurrection's limits to return to life, otherwise I'd have to decline.
    Last edited by Ashiel; 2019-02-01 at 03:37 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #1062
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    The three primary features of Athas/Dark Sun campaigns:

    1.) Arcane Magic is evil, since using it kills the planet. There are like evil Sorcerer Kings and stuff IIRC that rule certain nations that are even more blasted than the rest of the planet.
    --1a.) As a result, the primary "casting" method on Athas is Psionics. Every race is Naturally Psionic.
    --1b.) Gods are dead; divine magic is sourced from nature itself (where possible) and the Elemental Planes.

    2.) Ain't no metal. Everybody wears leather or bone armor and uses weapons made of bone or obsidian.

    3.) Everybody starts at a minimum of level 3, because the planet is so deadly nobody lives to adulthood without leveling at least twice.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-02-01 at 03:58 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #1063
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    You know it's funny, but, "arcane magic is evil/unnatural, Divine magic is good/natural" is such a standard tropenof ganes, yet, in most tabletop games, its often the opposite that is most true.

    In Patfinder, for example, classes like Wizards and Magus all learn how to tap into the magic of the world through study and wield the magic, while Bards learn how to tap into the magic of their performance. Classes like Sorcerers and Blood Ragers learn magic because Mommy and/or Daddy were into some kinky stuff.

    Everyone else? Their power is granted to them abd can be taken away. There is nothing natural about a Cleric's magic, it comes from a god and can be taken away by a god. A Druid's magic is supposedly natural, yet if you don't follow these rules, it gets taken away. Oracle's and Witches have their magic granted by some unknowable thing, and so on and so on.

    In Pathfinder, Divine magic is an abomination, and Arcane magic is the natural order. Even creatures with the inborn ability to world magic are using arcane magic unless the ability is explicitly called out as Divine, or the spell originates on the Divine side.

    Just a thought I've had and the Dark Sun setting reminded me of it.
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  14. - Top - End - #1064
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Tels View Post
    You know it's funny, but, "arcane magic is evil/unnatural, Divine magic is good/natural" is such a standard tropenof ganes, yet, in most tabletop games, its often the opposite that is most true.

    In Patfinder, for example, classes like Wizards and Magus all learn how to tap into the magic of the world through study and wield the magic, while Bards learn how to tap into the magic of their performance. Classes like Sorcerers and Blood Ragers learn magic because Mommy and/or Daddy were into some kinky stuff.

    Everyone else? Their power is granted to them abd can be taken away. There is nothing natural about a Cleric's magic, it comes from a god and can be taken away by a god. A Druid's magic is supposedly natural, yet if you don't follow these rules, it gets taken away. Oracle's and Witches have their magic granted by some unknowable thing, and so on and so on.

    In Pathfinder, Divine magic is an abomination, and Arcane magic is the natural order. Even creatures with the inborn ability to world magic are using arcane magic unless the ability is explicitly called out as Divine, or the spell originates on the Divine side.

    Just a thought I've had and the Dark Sun setting reminded me of it.
    I mean... Technically speaking, if it exists, it's part of nature... So all magic is natural! Just like everything else... Including undead!
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  15. - Top - End - #1065
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Gnomes are tricky like that.

    I concur however. One of the reasons I really love instant enemy which was one of the best buffs rangers have ever been offered.
    I dislike instant enemy because it's too big of a buff.

  16. - Top - End - #1066
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    By all gods... I f***ing hate summer!
    Don't move to my hometown then. It's summer all year long.
    Last edited by Nicos; 2019-02-01 at 06:57 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #1067
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    I'm game. And I can roll with almsot any setting. I trust Ashiel not to spring something on me like oh we're using psionics and magic are separate so you can't dispel magic the mindflayers tricks and then I get pissy you didn't read my mind expecting it. That was fun/s/.

    In any case, I'm not sure what to expect, I mean the temptation to build a tank with technician is high but setting... Yeah I'm not feeling too picky right now, any setting sort of thing makes me happy right now.

  18. - Top - End - #1068
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    THe lost lands and Midgard are good settings too. The lonely coast from Raging swan is a good mini-setting.

  19. - Top - End - #1069
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicos View Post
    I dislike instant enemy because it's too big of a buff.
    I highly recommend the Freebooter as a good compromise. Action economy comes into play for mine a lot.
    Players are like water. They go everywhere.
    So you need to cut the channels that direct them where you want them to go.
    If they try to skip the channel, let them. Cut another one ahead of them.
    Eventually, they'll take the channel. They'll even think it was entirely their own idea.
    When you try to build a dam, that's when they resent you.

  20. - Top - End - #1070
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicos View Post
    I dislike instant enemy because it's too big of a buff.
    Not sure why exactly. Puts them closer to Paladins, who have options for picking up things like divine power (sweet, sweet divine power), which stacks with their smites to boot.
    You are my God.

  21. - Top - End - #1071
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by TOZ View Post
    I highly recommend the Freebooter as a good compromise. Action economy comes into play for mine a lot.

    Well, With the homebrewed class creation It can't be that dificcult too persuade players to exchange favorite enmy for something else in case they want a ranger-like character, They have plenty of options.

  22. - Top - End - #1072
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicos View Post
    Well, With the homebrewed class creation It can't be that dificcult too persuade players to exchange favorite enmy for something else in case they want a ranger-like character, They have plenty of options.
    I'm not so sure about that, since the big perk about rangers and their favored enemy stuff is that it also applies to their animal companion, granting the ranger and their companion bonuses to skills and of course the bonus to hit and damage rolls, which goes a very long way towards keeping a companion relevant at higher levels (that +6 to hit and damage helps your animal companion still hit foes or successfully perform combat maneuvers).

    Unless their animal companions received the benefits of whatever alternative they received, I would be hesitant to give it up.
    You are my God.

  23. - Top - End - #1073
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    I admit that I had not thought about the animal companion.

  24. - Top - End - #1074
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    I do think that Instant Enemy is a bit too good... But that's only because it's a low level spell, and it's so easy to get more of those. If they were a class feature limited to 1~4 times a day depending on level, it'd perfectly fine.
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  25. - Top - End - #1075
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I do think that Instant Enemy is a bit too good... But that's only because it's a low level spell, and it's so easy to get more of those. If they were a class feature limited to 1~4 times a day depending on level, it'd perfectly fine.
    Why is it "too good" if I may ask?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicos
    I admit that I had not thought about the animal companion.
    The ripple effects matter when making changes. Martials took a hard dive in 3.5 from 3.0, despite generally getting better class features and buffs to their class. Why was this? Because suddenly a lot of feats couldn't be used anymore, and haste had been nerfed under the explanation that it was a nerf to mages to keep them from casting 2 spells per round (and then promptly introduced metamagic rods in the exact same update), but the nerf hit martials harder than mages.

    3.0 haste was a single target spell, provided an extra action each turn, and gave pretty significant bonuses. Because it gave you an extra action each turn, a martial could move up to twice their speed and full attack in the same round when hasted. Which meant that martials were actually mobile in the original 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons.

    They have never recovered from that loss through two cores (3.5 and PF).

    EDIT: With expanded material, the un-nerfed quickrunner's shirt was a step in the right direction. However, if you allow psionics, hustle items are a good replacement for 3.0 haste. It grants a move action as a swift action, which is enough to move and full attack, which does a lot for keeping melee viable at mid to high levels without demanding enormous amounts of system mastery.
    Last edited by Ashiel; 2019-02-02 at 12:38 PM.
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  26. - Top - End - #1076
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Also I'd like to note that Rangers do not have the myriad buff opportunities that Paladins do. For example, most of the buff spells for rangers are wholly defensive in nature. Things like freedom of movement and resist energy. Instant enemy allows rangers to better keep up as their level advances against significant foes, whereas a Paladin of course has Smite evil, the paladin also has spells like bless weapon (auto-crits), divine favor (+3 to hit and damage), and holy sword in the core rulebook alone. With expanded material, Unsanctioned Knowledge (Ultimate Magic) also gives the Paladin access to things like divine power, heroism, displacement, haste, or greater invisibility, just looking through a few core rulebook spells alone.

    I'm wondering what feeds into this idea that Favored Enemy/Instant Enemy is too good. If you feel that Instant enemy is too gimmicky or is the ranger equivalent of Natural Spell, perhaps a cleaner solution would be to change the Ranger's ability to an always on hunter's instinct that doubles its bonus against specific types of enemies that the ranger has chosen, which would also negate the need to track different levels of favored enemies (so you don't have +4 versus some and +2 vs others for example).
    You are my God.

  27. - Top - End - #1077
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Why is it "too good" if I may ask?
    You know why. But, fine... I'll humor you.

    FE is a passive bonus that is considerably stronger than similar abilities (Studied Target, Weapon Training, Judgement, etc). It's balanced by being somewhat situational (usually). Instant Enemy effectively turns it into "use whenever you want" ability, which puts it head and shoulder above most other "attack bonus" abilities (it's not as good as Smite Evil, but you get far more uses per day).

    Now... It has the downside of requiring a 3rd level spell. But that offers another downside in gameplay, IMHO. it's so much more likely to be useful in an adventure than most other 3rd level ranger spells, that it ends up Natural Spell-ing down the variety and creativity of spell selection. Even worse... Since it requires the target to be "one creature who is not your favored enemy", it encourages the player to metagame against himself, by picking one powerful/common type of creature for their main FE and then choosing weak/uncommon types of enemies for their additional FE. So basically, the spell "balances" itself in the most obnoxious, unfun, creativity-stifling, Jason Bulmahn-ish ways possible.

    Is it enough to make Rangers OP or even bring them up from Tier 4? Most certainly not. But I don't think the problem with martials can or should be fixed by inflating numbers. Rangers get a decent amount of versatility and utility through their spells, skill points, animal companion and stealth-related abilities. And they pretty good combat abilities even without FE too. They aren't in such a bad place that they needed such a shameless buff to their combat numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    I'm wondering what feeds into this idea that Favored Enemy/Instant Enemy is too good. If you feel that Instant enemy is too gimmicky or is the ranger equivalent of Natural Spell, perhaps a cleaner solution would be to change the Ranger's ability to an always on hunter's instinct that doubles its bonus against specific types of enemies that the ranger has chosen, which would also negate the need to track different levels of favored enemies (so you don't have +4 versus some and +2 vs others for example).
    Indeed. I actually considered making that change in my own house-rules in the past. Although that would still make it objectively better than most other class features, unless they too were buffed to better in certain situations (which is an idea I generally approve).

    Anyway, I prefer to see Rangers get more buffs and utility spells than a single 3rd-level spell that outshines nearly all of his spell list.

    EDIT: A change I seriously consider making is splinting FE into "Primary Enemy" and "Secondary Enemy" (or whatever you want to call it)... Specifically, the Rangers gains the normal FE bonus against his Primary Enemy and half that bonus to all selected Secondary Enemies. Thus making FE more versatile without making it as super universally applicable as weaker similar class features, such as Studied Target.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-02-03 at 08:49 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #1078
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    With expanded material, the un-nerfed quickrunner's shirt was a step in the right direction. .

    I disagree. Quickrunner shirt just became another must have item in a game filled with must have stuffs. Quickrunner shirt were just a patch, I dislike patchest in the form of magic items. What the game needed was a fix.
    Last edited by Nicos; 2019-02-02 at 01:39 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #1079
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    confused Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    So basically, the spell "balances" itself in the most obnoxious, unfun, creativity-stifling, James Jacobs-ish ways possible.



  30. - Top - End - #1080
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    Default Re: Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Unless their animal companions received the benefits of whatever alternative they received...

    I can see this as a thing if the player buys the Ranger animal companion class feature. A Raging Bear would be a thing.

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