DnD without metamagic

[TheElfLord]

In my group's 3.x games we have never dealt with metamagic in any form. It has never created a problem for us. What I'm wondering is what effect removing all metamagic from the game would be. Specifically I'm looking for how it might effect things like class balance.

[lord_khaine]

it would make full casters a bit weaker, especaly wizards and sorceres, and to a lesser degree clerics and druids.

its not something that will create game-breaking imbalance if thats what you are asking after.

[TheElfLord]

Well given that casters are already overpowered and unbalanced I was hoping removing metamagic would help bring things a little more on level.

[valadil]

I don't think it would reduce a caster's power too much if you're looking to balance things a bit. It would make casting quite a bit more boring though. You'd probably be better off removing specific MM feats (quicken and persistent spell come to mind) but leaving others. What do you expect wizards to do with their bonus feats if metamagic isn't an option?

[Kurald Galain]

It would help balancing power levels, and I disagree that it makes casters boring because they're the most versatile classes in the game. Besides, there's other fun wizard feats, like the various school specialization (e.g. conjure with free puff of yucky smoke, stuff like that).

[tsuyoshikentsu]

The one it really hits is the divine casters; Divine Metamagic is a powerhouse.

Outside of that, I don't really know how much difference it'll make overall.

[Roderick_BR]

It would help a bit. Full casters don't really need it to be powerful.
Since wizards usually gain bonus feats for metamagic and item creation feats, you could find something else to replace it.
In a group without wizards (only sorcerer, bard, cleric, etc...) it would work without any change in the rules.

[Kurald Galain]

The one it really hits is the divine casters; Divine Metamagic is a powerhouse.

I seriously doubt that barring Divine Metacheese would somehow be bad for game balance

[SITB]

Won't this change make a lot of wizards PrC's unaccessible and sometimes worthless or golden?

[Callos_DeTerran]

I seriously doubt that barring Divine Metacheese would somehow be bad for game balance

Divine Metacheese isn't as bad since it's been errated. Still...only being able to pick a single metamagic feat for it to apply to is still pretty good.

[stainboy]

I can't see any game-balance problems. My group has never really used it, aside from me dropping it onto the occasional NPC caster, and casters are plenty powerful as-is.

I don't like metamagic much anyway. It's expensive, rarely worth it, and uses a cumbersome set of rules. I remember reading that WotC had intended to put a new metamagic system into 3.5, and scrapped it. I'd be curious to see what they had planned.

[Swordguy]

I don't think it would reduce a caster's power too much if you're looking to balance things a bit. It would make casting quite a bit more boring though. You'd probably be better off removing specific MM feats (quicken and persistent spell come to mind) but leaving others. What do you expect wizards to do with their bonus feats if metamagic isn't an option?

?!

How on earth did you play through AD&D? Metamagic is a relatively new invention.

Aren't there enough spells to do anything you want to do anyway?

[Rad]

I have been wondering for a long time if they were worth the fuss. Not in terms of their convenience for the PCs but in what their existence adds to the game enjoyment. Please let us know how that works.

[Irreverent Fool]

I can't see any game-balance problems. My group has never really used it, aside from me dropping it onto the occasional NPC caster, and casters are plenty powerful as-is.

I don't like metamagic much anyway. It's expensive, rarely worth it, and uses a cumbersome set of rules. I remember reading that WotC had intended to put a new metamagic system into 3.5, and scrapped it. I'd be curious to see what they had planned.

While I understand fully reasons for getting rid of it, I'm afraid I don't find it cumbersome or 'not worth it' at all. Granted, you don't use metamagic ALL THE TIME. You don't use most feats all the time.

One of my favorites is 'sculpt spell'. It only raises the level by 1 and allows you to change an AOE spell into a fireball-like burst, a lightning bolt-like line, or a flamestrike-like number of 10' cubes.

I think the primary problem with metamagic is that it (despite the full-round action involved) is more useful for spontaneous casters since you're not sure if you really want to waste a 4-th level slot for a maximized magic missile today until you start fighting incoporeal things.

I have been wondering for a long time if they were worth the fuss. Not in terms of their convenience for the PCs but in what their existence adds to the game enjoyment. Please let us know how that works.

I have a 10th level sorcerer/4th level arcane avatar (Mongoose Publishing's d20 Ultimate Prestige Classes) that I've been playing in a group for going on 3 years now. I didn't come up with a feat build or even spell selection ahead of time and rarely even planned ahead one level, my character being more of a spontaneous person who simply reveled in his power as it increased.

That having been said, I've been taking metamagics simply because they add versatility, something that a sorcerer can end up lacking. I took sculpt spell because I often found I had a hard time placing spells so as to keep my party out of the AOEs, I took heighten spell because I found against bigger baddies I sometimes wanted a certain effect at a higher DC, I took Energy Substitution: Cold and Lord of the Uttercold because at one point I managed to animate a few skeletons (He's Chaotic Neutral) and wanted to keep them alive and hit my enemies at the same time. I took Maximize spell because... well, I wanted to maximize ennervate and drain a whole 4 levels, but it's come in handy in other places too.

I find metamagic gives me more choices with my limited spell selection and I can't expound upon the virtues of 'heighten spell' enough. How many times have you wanted to 'charm person' that badass NPC but knew he'd easily make the save against a 1-st level spell? Kick it up by 5 and see how he likes it.

[Green Bean]

Dropping metamagic would slightly weaken casting classes. It wouldn't totally balance them, but it would take them down a bit.

However, this would have the unfortunate side effect of nerfing the arguably most balanced full caster- the blaster. Blasters do tend to rely on metamagic more than other full casters, things like Empower or Maximize, which allow them to keep blasting at higher levels. For instance, without metamagic, there's only one fifth level direct damage spell: Cone of Cold. With metamagic available, a wizard could memorize Cone of Cold, and an Empowered Fireball to give him/herself options. Without metamagic, he/she'd be stuck with a single high level elemental damage type, which is annoying if you run into resistant monsters and further weakens blasters compared to other classes.

[Kurald Galain]

Blasters do tend to rely on metamagic more than other full casters,

I suppose the blasters could get to keep all those nifty blaster feats, like energy admixture and three thunders and so forth. Just not persistent / quicken / etc.

[Draz74]

It might be worth noting that Heighten Spell is very different from the other metamagics, and is especially valuable to the spontaneous casters. Poor Sorcerer will really be outshined by a wizard if he can't get Heighten.

... then again, the fact that the wizard can no longer laugh at the sorcerer as he Quickens a bunch of spells will help make up for it.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I agree Quicken (Two spells in a round is huge), Persist and Sculpt are probably the most useful feats and are generally the most abuseable feats.

Removing all the meta spell feats just damps down the power of a spellcaster particularly if the NPCs are not mirroring the PC spellcasters in their feat selections.

Letting casters take things like crafting feats, magical artisan or a reserve feat still enhances the party.

Take a PRC like Ultimate Magus and lots of Quickened level 5 and below spells compared to other casters or using a Turning feat to pay down the spell meta.

[Ikkitosen]

Many of the very worst rules abuses concern metamagic - banning anything with more than +1 spell level adjustment might be good whilst retaining some of the more basic uses for MM.

[Droodle]

I don't like the idea of removing meta-magic. It hardly weakens the wizard, cleric, and druid at all, but Bards and Sorcerers (the weakest 2 casting classes) are severely nerfed. In my opinion, removing meta-magic is only going to make balance worse. Removing Quicken isn't necessarily a bad idea, though, and Divine Meta-magic shouldn't be allowed, either.

[Matthew]

Meta Magic Feats do cause problems here and there, and occasionally game break effects. Reducing these is part of the answer to bringing down the Spell Caster, but it has to be part of a consistant and systemic reorganisation of those Classes.

[Arbitrarity]

Letting casters take things like crafting feats, magical artisan or a reserve feat still enhances the party.

Eeevilll.

It's a trap!

[Ssiauhll]

I wouldn't say that casters are over powered at all. They have a different rate of progression. Its a matter of no only havening a different slope but also a different intercept as well.

At low levels, which have been most of the games that I've played, they are weak. By mid levels they start to be on par with the other characters and can be every flexible. I wouldn't know about high levels as I've never played in a game with a PC about 8th level, and NPCs just aren't the same.

At low-mid levels I have never seen any one use meta magic, feats are just to rare to waste and the spells level that you can cast aren't high enough to make it worth while.

[PinkysBrain]

Some of the cheaper metamagic rods can be handy at low levels.

[Dark_Wind]

Metamagic feats alone really aren't broken. The cheese comes from things like Divine Metamagic, Metamagic Rods, Sudden Metamagic Feats, and other things that remove the increase in spell level that is the one balancing factor for metamagic. Get rid of these things first.

After that, consider getting rid of just individual feats, like Persist Spell and Quicken Spell, rather than banning all metamagic at once. A blanket ban, as others have said, screws over spontaneous casters quite a bit, because metamagic allows these casters to make the best use of their spell slots with their limited known spells.

@Ssiauhll: High levels are where they become really, really, powerful. Forget Epic. Epic D&D is borked beyond repair.

[Kurald Galain]

I wouldn't say that casters are over powered at all.

Eeeer, right. Google CoDzilla. Read the Batman thread. Have a nice day.

Oh and yeah, it's not metamagic per se that's overpowered (although it could still be considered so) but reduced cost metamagic. Rather than adding spell levels, you add cheese.