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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 8BitNinja View Post
    There is a reason there are a lot of Miko paladins. Falling hurts.
    Is that a pun on falling or did that joke fly over my head? Then again you don't seem like a ranged paladin...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Deceiving is evil. Being proud of how well you follow rules that no one but you cares about is Lawful. Put them together, and you get a character who lies all the time, but brags about how his lies weren't technically lies.
    I'm going to take issue with that first sentence - I don't think deceiving is inherently evil. It depends on what you use it for. To use a trivial example, if you're sheltering escaped slaves in order to help them make their way to freedom in a Lawful Evil society, and you have to deceive the slave hunters in order to protect both yourself and your allies, that's not Evil.

    I'd say that flat-out lying has a mild chaotic tendency, but not to such a degree that Lawful people can't lie. I'd say that people who choose to deceive with technical truths are more likely to be Lawful, and I think Chaotic people are probably more willing to lie on average, but I don't think it's that strong a correlation.

    And deceit itself, which I use to mean both flat-out lying and deceit through technical truths or lies of omission, I'd rule as a totally neutral method. Deceit is just a tool; what you use it for is what makes or breaks the alignment.

    (Mind you, in an ideal world, you're rarely going to need deceit in the service of a good cause, but campaign worlds are rarely ideal.)
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2016-10-03 at 12:14 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Loosely related to the discussion on whether 'lying = evil'...

    One of my favourite campaigns I ever ran as a GM was a Planescape campaign, and included a pre-made adventure, called The Fires of Dis, that I was able to slip into the ongoing campaign. The PCs had to travel to Baator and make it from the 1st Hell, to the 2nd, and retrieve a Holy Avenger from the boss man there, and take it to Mount Celestia (which was where the next thread of the main plot was due to take place - handy, huh? ).

    I played the LE as truthful, but not necessarily the truth you think you heard. It was so much fun playing the Baatezu, though; tricking the players into all sorts of awful situations/agreements, without ever lying to them. And the party's Paladin was forced to go along with what had been agreed. They caught on by the end with the lesser Baatezu, but still fell for the twist at the end from Dispater himself

    The Paladin in the party managed to hold onto his Paladinhood, just barely... it was a close thing at times, and nearly caused the party to splinter at more than one point, with the Rogue and the Paladin clashing over a particular course of action most of the time One clash was when they had to crawl in order to get into the 2nd Hell and the Paladin (who was playing to his class feature with great gusto) was refusing to crawl for the amusement of the Baatezu... and the pair ended up in a blazing row, nearly ending in drawn swords/daggers... till the others pointed out that they had just snuck past Tiamat's lair, and that maybe now was not the best time to be having a barney

    I agree with DaggerPen, in that lying in and of itself is not Evil, dependant on reason and result... As someone said earlier, an embodiment of Law and Evil, like the Baatezu, do not lie... just need to be certain to close all the loopholes... and a LE person can certainly use the same 'rules' to get their own way... after all, they're still evil, so...
    Last edited by War-Wren; 2016-10-03 at 04:37 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Is that a pun on falling or did that joke fly over my head? Then again you don't seem like a ranged paladin...
    While I won't deny the stealth pun, I think the shiny one is referring to how Paladins have a tendency to not be fed all the information they need to actually prevent them from taking actions that would cause all their Paladin abilities to simply fly out the window.

    "Oh, did I mention the Goblin child you left behind wasn't evil and died in that fire?"
    "Er... no."
    "Well, it wasn't, and since you didn't do all you could to save it, BAM! Paladin powers go bye-bye!"
    "Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!"
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    And deceit itself, which I use to mean both flat-out lying and deceit through technical truths or lies of omission, I'd rule as a totally neutral method. Deceit is just a tool; what you use it for is what makes or breaks the alignment.
    I'd argue that deceit is at least as evil as lying is chaotic.

    Quote Originally Posted by War-Wren View Post
    As someone said earlier, an embodiment of Law and Evil, like the Baatezu, do not lie... just need to be certain to close all the loopholes...
    I don't think that's a hard-and-fast rule. I don't recall reading anywhere that all devils follow such rules. Some do, of course, but I'd imagine some demons would as well.
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    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    His body is walking around, and his spirit is inside.
    OK. Is Durkon any less dead because of it? There's something about him that's so dead, it's like how much more dead could he be? And the answer is none. None more dead.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    OK. Is Durkon any less dead because of it? There's something about him that's so dead, it's like how much more dead could he be? And the answer is none. None more dead.
    Has his soul moved into the proper afterlife?

    Has his soul made significant steps towards becoming one with his afterlife (e.g. "climbing the mountain" in Celestia)?

    Has his soul, in fact, been absorbed into the fabric of his alignment plane?

    I would say that only the people who answer yes to all of the above are really, truly dead. In D&D cosmology, there are definitely graduations of being dead. Roy was less dead than his grandfather - or, put another way, more attached to the material plane.

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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JumboWheat01 View Post
    While I won't deny the stealth pun, I think the shiny one is referring to how Paladins have a tendency to not be fed all the information they need to actually prevent them from taking actions that would cause all their Paladin abilities to simply fly out the window.

    "Oh, did I mention the Goblin child you left behind wasn't evil and died in that fire?"
    "Er... no."
    "Well, it wasn't, and since you didn't do all you could to save it, BAM! Paladin powers go bye-bye!"
    "Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!"
    I have two conflicting reactions to this.

    Yes, some DMs go out of their way to make paladins fall, and it's bad.
    No, no one who leaves a child behind in a fire has grounds to be surprised that they fell. Or that their alignment got shifted to evil.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Has his soul moved into the proper afterlife?

    Has his soul made significant steps towards becoming one with his afterlife (e.g. "climbing the mountain" in Celestia)?

    Has his soul, in fact, been absorbed into the fabric of his alignment plane?

    I would say that only the people who answer yes to all of the above are really, truly dead. In D&D cosmology, there are definitely graduations of being dead. Roy was less dead than his grandfather - or, put another way, more attached to the material plane.

    Grey Wolf
    By this argument, Roy was more dead than Eugene (who, due to death by old age, cannot even be raised, unlike Roy). Do you agree with this implication?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I don't think that's a hard-and-fast rule. I don't recall reading anywhere that all devils follow such rules. Some do, of course, but I'd imagine some demons would as well.
    All my Planscape books are still up in my folks' loft, so I can't check for certain, but my instinct is that it's one of those things that gets more common the higher up the social tree a native of Baator goes; your average petitioner is just a LE Shmoe, so is fallible in that respect, prone to lies if necessary... the actual natives embody the plane, but again, the low level Baatezu aren't very good at it, compared to the Pit Fiends (at the top of the tree) who could probably twist things without a thought and make mortals get into all sorts of trouble, all without the whisper of a lie.

    Demons, the Tanaa'ri of The Abyss, are CE... so anything goes... best not to trust them in any way shape or form Could be truth... but even if it is, nothing will stop them stabbing you in the back...

    That was my take on it, back in the day anyway

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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    By this argument, Roy was more dead than Eugene (who, due to death by old age, cannot even be raised, unlike Roy). Do you agree with this implication?
    No. Roy is clearly more attached to the material world than Eugene. I don't know what the hard rules on resurrection (can a wish or miracle sidestep the old age limitation? Can sufficiently epic magic?), but if there really is no other way to resurrect Eugene, that would also be another indicator of deadness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No. Roy is clearly more attached to the material world than Eugene. I don't know what the hard rules on resurrection (can a wish or miracle sidestep the old age limitation? Can sufficiently epic magic?), but if there really is no other way to resurrect Eugene, that would also be another indicator of deadness.

    GW
    Awesome! So, if we add difficulty to resurrect as a metric of deadity, then Durkon has, at the very least, a foot in the door.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    I think the old definitions of death work just fine here. Is his heart beating or his lungs respirating? No? Then he's dead. The fact he's walking around and talking to people doesn't change that, especially since the entity doing that is not actually Durkon.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I have two conflicting reactions to this.

    Yes, some DMs go out of their way to make paladins fall, and it's bad.
    No, no one who leaves a child behind in a fire has grounds to be surprised that they fell. Or that their alignment got shifted to evil.
    To paraphrase the opening scene of Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide

    "But goblins are creatures of evil, you can't expect me to help one." - Human Paladin
    "And naturally the child couldn't be raised differently." - Half-orc Sorcerer/Barbarian

    There's a reason why the Lawful Good alignment is often called the Lawful Stupid one. Assumptions are made quite frequently, and proper information isn't given to counter the assumption. At least for most other classes, it's just a notch down on their alignment grid, not a destruction of their abilities. Even Monks can get away with it so long as it isn't a Chaotic shift as well.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Ah, argumentum ad extremely stupid character* in a video game. I concede; clearly if Misha thinks it then it's morally valid, particularly in the context of her mentor trying to teach her that it wasn't morally valid.

    *This is, for the benefit of anyone else reading this, not a Kish judgment but explicit in the game in question: Misha, like Thog, dumped her Intelligence.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Ah, argumentum ad extremely stupid character* in a video game. I concede; clearly if Misha thinks it then it's morally valid, particularly in the context of her mentor trying to teach her that it wasn't morally valid.

    *This is, for the benefit of anyone else reading this, not a Kish judgment but explicit in the game in question: Misha, like Thog, dumped her Intelligence.
    Those silly 3rd Edition humans, thinking that just because they gain an extra skill point per level that they can leave INT low. No wonder things names like "paladunce" are common.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Regarding the idea that lying and deceiving are inherently chaotic/evil acts...oots0545
    In the OOTSverse at least, attempting to deceive and lie to people is something a paladin can do without falling. Admittedly this might just be a super-contextual situation, so I wouldn't call it conclusive evidence.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I have two conflicting reactions to this.

    Yes, some DMs go out of their way to make paladins fall, and it's bad.
    No, no one who leaves a child behind in a fire has grounds to be surprised that they fell. Or that their alignment got shifted to evil.
    Agreed on both points. Now, if the DM were to spontaneously reveal that you'd left a child behind in a fire when you had no legitimate way to know they were there, then that would be a definite DM jerk move.

    Quote Originally Posted by arrowed View Post
    Regarding the idea that lying and deceiving are inherently chaotic/evil acts...oots0545
    In the OOTSverse at least, attempting to deceive and lie to people is something a paladin can do without falling. Admittedly this might just be a super-contextual situation, so I wouldn't call it conclusive evidence.
    I would argue that acts whose alignment is contextual are definitionally not inherently any alignment. My rule of thumb is, if no one gets hurt except as immediate and proportionate comeuppance to an Evil act, and if the act itself does not serve a cause that will hurt people who don't deserve it, it's not Evil.

    (Which isn't to say there's never room for ambiguity if something is Evil or not, but it's still a good litmus test.)
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    I don't know about being evil but I definitely feel for those poor expendable frost giants, there but to grace the comic for a few short strips in order to show us how much the party has grown in level...and maturity.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Now, if the DM were to spontaneously reveal that you'd left a child behind in a fire when you had no legitimate way to know they were there, then that would be a definite DM jerk move.
    No, it would be a jerk move if said DM actually then made you Fall for that, because that would be ridiculous. You can only act according to the information you have available--heck, you don't Fall for associating with an evil being unless you do it *knowingly*--so not saving a child you never knew was there in the first place is not grounds for making a paladin Fall.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LuisDantas View Post
    Personally, I don't think Belkar is at all interesting as a character, nor do I think he can be salvaged from the built-in character damage.

    Particularly given how unwilling to learn he has always been. His popularity puzzles me to no end.
    You must also not understand people liking Hulk, Wolverine, Deadpool, Punisher, Juggernaut, Rogue, Mystique, Gambit, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Magneto, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, The Thunderbolts, Ghost Rider, Catwoman, Joker, Harley Quinn, Riddler, Flash's Rogues, The Suicide Squad, The Secret Six, and Lobo. Because the popularity stems from the same enjoyment of the not so good guy doing good (or not even doing good) with humor, wit, snark, and awesome writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    The only one of your claimed loopholes which is even seriously arguable is the Haley one--the one which points to the most actually useful prophecy to have come true so far.

    Durkon is going home, posthumously. The Oracle didn't tell him "and then you'll have a funeral and be buried."

    Vaarsuvius said four words. The Oracle never said "four unique words." The people on this board who protested never had a legitimate basis for doing so.

    Belkar fulfilled the prophecy in the most direct way possible, killing one of the people on his list by stabbing him with his daggers. On an unrelated note, the Oracle spent a strip trolling Belkar.

    Roy asked which Gate of the two he named Xykon would be close to next; he got the entirely correct answer "Girard's Gate."
    Don't know why this is brought up, Oracle is a liar, not a prophet. He even admits he can only understand Haley because all the readers translated her speech.

    Durkon is not returning Posthumously... If the body is Durkon's, Hel has no right to it for Durkoff to ride it into the Dwarven lands... the body doesn't return... if Durkoff can enter Dwarven Lands, Then Durkon is not returning Posthumously, he's dead and Durkoff is entering the lands. The Oracle plays in semantics to twist facts to fit his narrative.

    Vaarsuvius prophecy was 4 words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons, but was only 3 words (I...I is one word... period, it is a stutter, a verbal stumbling, not two separate words), said to no one, V wasn't talking Qarr, or the Fiends, or actually even to V... so it was not said to the right being. Sleep/Meditation deprived, injured, out of spells, teammateless, being manipulated by literal evil, family being threatened is far from the right time, it is practically the definition of the worst time possible to be making a decision... Saving ones family from a vengeful Elder Black Dragon is not a wrong reason and there were many possible wrong reasons (like intending to join Xykon and rule the world, for example) that V was not making the decision based off so it was not assuredly not for all the wrong reasons.

    Belkar hasn't caused the death of anyone on the list, yet. V hasn't died, Windwalker hasn't died, Miko's death was her own fault, Roy and the Oracle each had a death, but both of those were not permanent and therefore not The Death (final, last, permanent, ergo the word The used instead of A meaning one of... highly important in a world where Death can be remedied) nd while Xykon can be blamed for Roy's death, the Oracle orchestrated his own demise. For the Oracle's prophecy for Belkar to be correct, he should gave said "No, while you'll be remotely involved with a few of them getting killed, it will be mere coincidence, but even when one dies by your own hand, you will regret it, and that won't even be a permanent death, sucks to be you."

    A Trojan Horse resembles a gift Horse, but is actually the opposite of a Gift Horse, so Haley's prophecy was also wrong.

    Roy's prophecy was also wrong... the proper response should have been "Neither you hideous bald pile of mammal flesh, the Sapphire gate... my job is to tell the future, not grant your pendatic wishes."

    Even the previous prophecy should have been "In Dorukan's Gate Room" not "In his Throne Room". Just because you put a toilet and a tub on your front lawn doesn't make it a bathroom. Rooms that hold a major purpose in their design retain that purpose until that design is totally changed to remove that purpose.

    Blackwing paid for a prophecy... it was wrong. Ginko Bilboa has not done anything.

    The Oracle's claim is the memory charm is to cover his slips, but it is in fact so he can hide his lies.
    His supposed slips for Belkar
    Shouldn't Fund IRA... so Belkar won't live to old age, or his IRA could just be lost to bad bank issues... just idle threat.
    Savor his next Birthday Cake... Belkar is a foodie, you shoukd savor every birthday cake, it was a throwaway line.
    Belkar is not long for this world... It is a height joke... in a world of stick figures, long is how you measure their sticks... Oracle is just saying Belkar is short.

    The Official misunderstood prophecy "Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year."

    Well since Prophecies are always fake lies with twisted implied alternate meanings... Last Breath -- Ever must be a weapon he will gain, maybe for his next birthday when he should savor his cake and pull money from his IRA to buy "Last Breath -- Ever".

    The Oracle couldn't even properly predict Ghost Roy would keep his memory... The Oracle is charlatan, and people need to forget about his silly lies.
    Last edited by Shoelessgdowar; 2016-10-04 at 05:53 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    You're hilariously wrong in almost everything you said, so I'll just focus on one bit that may not be so obvious to some people here. The Trojan horse came very much as a gift. Ever heard that famous quote from the Aeneid, Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes ("I fear the Danaans, even when they bring gifts")? The expression "gift horse" is 100% a reference to the Trojan horse.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    The expression "gift horse" is 100% a reference to the Trojan horse.
    I didn't read the last posts, so I have no idea what the matter is at all, but this sentence is wrong.

    The meaning of the expression (which dates back to the Romans and in latin is: "Noli equi dentes inspicere donati") is that you must accept, graciously, a gift, without seeking too much for its flaws. It's close to "the thought is what matters" and similar expressions.

    Totally unrelated with the Trojan horse, where, indeed they would have been better checking very well the gift.

    Edit: Oh, maybe I see... you two are debating if Nale's trojan horse qualifies as a gift horse and so the reference you're talking about is an OOTS reference, and not from where the proverb comes (maybe).
    Last edited by Dr.Zero; 2016-10-04 at 07:27 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoelessgdowar View Post
    The Oracle's claim is the memory charm is to cover his slips, but it is in fact so he can hide his lies.
    The lies..... that people can explicitly remember? Imean, if you argue that his prophecies are lies, and the memory charm lets the prophecies through, then you admit that it lets the lies through. And then proceed to claim that its sole purpose is to hide the fact that he lies.

    That's an interesting debate tactic there, cutting off your own feet before a race.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shoelessgdowar View Post
    Last Breath -- Ever must be a weapon he will gain, maybe for his next birthday when he should savor his cake and pull money from his IRA to buy "Last Breath -- Ever".
    Must, eh?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    OK. Is Durkon any less dead because of it? There's something about him that's so dead, it's like how much more dead could he be? And the answer is none. None more dead.
    Yes, Durkon's technically dead, and technically Darth Vader ended Anakin Skywalker. Some could find reason to disagree with both of these statements. Not the same people, and not in the same numbers, but I never said that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    By this argument, Roy was more dead than Eugene (who, due to death by old age, cannot even be raised, unlike Roy). Do you agree with this implication?
    Eugene was in the afterlife. He's just in the waiting room, but he's certainly not trapped in the mortal realm the way Durkon's soul is.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    You're hilariously wrong in almost everything you said
    Co-sign, especially regarding the Oracle.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Eugene was in the afterlife. He's just in the waiting room, but he's certainly not trapped in the mortal realm the way Durkon's soul is.
    Never said he wasn't. He wasn't in the proper afterlife or making any steps toward oneness with the planes, though, which is why I brought him up in response to Grey Wolf's assertion.

    Are Lilian and Dorukan not as dead as Eugene as well? Who is more dead, Durkon or Lirian? Imean, Durkon's corpse is walking around, but so was Lirian's (and still may be, for all we know. I don't think I recall her zombified body getting destroyed). Does the specific, geographic location matter then? One soul trapped in its own corpse, one trapped in a gem five feet from the corpse? If the Oracle told Lirian she'd next see Dorukan posthumously, would it carry the same connotations of "but not really, since your corpse is still walking around?"

    I fully agree with factotum. Death is binary. Sure, some may be able to contact back to life, but that doesn't mean they were any less dead.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2016-10-04 at 02:39 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I fully agree with factotum. Death is binary. Sure, some may be able to contact back to life, but that doesn't mean they were any less dead.
    And yet you have not been able to counter my explanation. Heck, even in the real world, there are graduations of dead. People with no pulse and no breathing have come back to life. But if what you are saying was true, "Death is binary", they were dead, with all that that should mean (execution of their last will and testament, loss of all claims to possessions, etc.)

    No, there are clearly graduations of death. A soul that has ceased to exist, absorbed into a plane is far, far more dead than a soul trapped in a vampire.

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2016-10-04 at 02:47 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    And yet you have not been able to counter my explanation. Heck, even in the real world, there are graduations of dead. People with no pulse and no breathing have come back to life. But if what you are saying was true, "Death is binary", they were dead, with all that that should mean (execution of their last will and testament, loss of all claims to possessions, etc.)

    No, there are clearly graduations of death. A soul that has ceased to exist, absorbed into a plane is far, far more dead than a soul trapped in a vampire.

    Grey Wolf
    Ignoring real-world logistics and legalities, 3.5 rules state that when a character drops to -10 hit points. That character dies. It makes no mention and gives no connotation of varying degrees or graduation of death. There are ways to undo death, but death itself is treated as a binary condition.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1053 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    death itself is treated as a binary condition.
    No, it is not, as you yourself observed. Many spells which deal with targets that are dead add a number of conditionals to distinguish between various flavours of dead, like the varying lengths of the death status & willingness of the dead subjects for the resurrect family of spells.

    GW
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    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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