Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide

[Lyracian]

Black MAD
SAD
its hard to understand what you mean cuz you spaming those terms and idk what they means :(

Multi Ability Dependent
Single Ability Dependent

How many of your six abilities (Str, Dex, Int, ...) the character needs to have high.

Could do with a glossary

[catalyst20xx]

Again, and again, and again, thanks for this guide. I know you've heard it a lot, but it's well-deserved.

I'm looking for some MC guidance from you and the community at large. Character build is Aarakocra Pirate Bard. I was originally thinking on a TWF Swords/Swashbuck MC but figured it wouldn't stack very well, was overly complicated for minimal payout, and it shifting things squarely in the martial arena while I'd like to stay somewhat balanced between martial and magic. Did some digging around and am currently looking at Swords/Hexblade. I'm currently at Bard 2 and should hit lvl 3 in a couple days at our next session.

I'm thinking on progressing Bard 6/Lock 4 to get up to lvl 10. The guidance I'm looking for is:

Should I rush Bard for 6, then get Lock to 4 or do you recommend a different progression? What's your guidance on levels after 10? My current concept is bard spells mainly for utility/buff/heals, lock spells mainly for damage and alternate utilities, dueling fighting style w/ rapier and shield; get the CHA bonus for weapons + dueling bonus to damage and the smites for extra umph + flourishes for even MORE umph and tactical advantage when appropriate. It's probably worth noting that I also have an Instrument of the Bards: Mac-Fuirmidh Cittern which REALLY bumps my available utility spells.

I don't want to be the "behind the lines" guy playing primarily support - I want to be acting as the bragadocious, inspiring, combat-hardened, front-line, dancing and mobile, flying pirate leader with a flair and charismatic charm. What are your thoughts on all of this? I'm not aiming to min/max or optimize at the expense of RP, but it is something I want to consider because the more effective my character is while still fitting the RP side, the more fun I and everyone else will have! Any other recommendations for spells/abilities, etc with this concept in mind would also be welcome.

Thanks in advance!

[ZorroGames]

Again, and again, and again, thanks for this guide. I know you've heard it a lot, but it's well-deserved.

I'm looking for some MC guidance from you and the community at large. Character build is Aarakocra Pirate Bard. I was originally thinking on a TWF Swords/Swashbuck MC but figured it wouldn't stack very well, was overly complicated for minimal payout, and it shifting things squarely in the martial arena while I'd like to stay somewhat balanced between martial and magic. Did some digging around and am currently looking at Swords/Hexblade. I'm currently at Bard 2 and should hit lvl 3 in a couple days at our next session.

I'm thinking on progressing Bard 6/Lock 4 to get up to lvl 10. The guidance I'm looking for is:

Should I rush Bard for 6, then get Lock to 4 or do you recommend a different progression? What's your guidance on levels after 10? My current concept is bard spells mainly for utility/buff/heals, lock spells mainly for damage and alternate utilities, dueling fighting style w/ rapier and shield; get the CHA bonus for weapons + dueling bonus to damage and the smites for extra umph + flourishes for even MORE umph and tactical advantage when appropriate. It's probably worth noting that I also have an Instrument of the Bards: Mac-Fuirmidh Cittern which REALLY bumps my available utility spells.

I don't want to be the "behind the lines" guy playing primarily support - I want to be acting as the bragadocious, inspiring, combat-hardened, front-line, dancing and mobile, flying pirate leader with a flair and charismatic charm. What are your thoughts on all of this? I'm not aiming to min/max or optimize at the expense of RP, but it is something I want to consider because the more effective my character is while still fitting the RP side, the more fun I and everyone else will have! Any other recommendations for spells/abilities, etc with this concept in mind would also be welcome.

Thanks in advance!

Ooh, I like this.. Could not do it justice but I really like it!

Maybe dance around the end of the “line” while in combat allowing you to melee, Missile, utility spell as needed?

If you are not looking for Medium Armor from Hexblade, which it seems you might be, either go Bard 4 (if you go to 3rd it is just a bump to the ASI/Feat at 4) or go Hex 4 from Second than return to Bard. Note that page page 164 of PHB says you gain essentially zip proficiencies if you MC into Warlock from something else. No Medium Armor proficiency, only light which you have. Only Simple Weapons while you have Rapier currently. Talk with your DM to “adjust” that if possible.

[catalyst20xx]

Ooh, I like this.. Could not do it justice but I really like it!

Maybe dance around the end of the “line” while in combat allowing you to melee, Missile, utility spell as needed?

If you are not looking for Medium Armor from Hexblade, which it seems you might be, either go Bard 4 (if you go to 3rd it is just a bump to the ASI/Feat at 4) or go Hex 4 from Second than return to Bard. Note that page page 164 of PHB says you gain essentially zip proficiencies if you MC into Warlock from something else. No Medium Armor proficiency, only light which you have. Only Simple Weapons while you have Rapier currently. Talk with your DM to “adjust” that if possible.

Yeah, the object is to dart in and out, being highly mobile and using my flourishes tactically and flight to keep horizontal/vertical distance to avoid harm - helping to save spell slots from using shield, etc. That way I can fight on my terms rather than get stuck as a squishy bard/lock in melee.

Bard 5 to get short rest recharges and lvl 3 spells, then just one more to 6 to get extra attack. Then MC Warlock for CHA bonuses next level and get to 3 for improved pact weapon (weapon can be focus for Warlock spells - can already be focus for Bard spells due to Swords), opting to go to 4 simply so I'm not missing out on an easy ASI; then back to bard or keep going Warlock. Leaning Bard atm, but looking for input on that post-lvl-10 progression. Not really losing spells slots because I get the short rest recharges on Lock slots, and I can use either Lock or Bard slots to cast either (unless the spell specifically say so, which isn't many of them).

I'm opting for Light armor specifically because we're using Variant Encumbrance and the Medium armor MIGHT get me 1 AC over Light after accounting for my DEX bonus, but I have to shed all the weight I can.

I'm looking at Hexblade specifically because it gives shield proficiency (small AC bonus used w/ my dueling fighting style); the charisma modifiers to my weapons instead of DEX/STR; Hexblade Curse is great for tough enemies, and the expanded spell list gives more Smite options for extra damage if desired/necessary.

So, combat = buff/heal before and during as necessary, control spells if necessary, eldritch blast for range, melee damage by darting in, hitting twice w/ rapier using cha mods and dueling bonus, stack smites for extra damage if necessary, use bardic inspiration for extra damage if necessary and/or tactical advantage, either remain or escape freely and vertically w/ flourish if desirable. Rinse/repeat!

For RP as an fyi; playing Princes of the Apocalypse - character was Pirate captain and ship was wrecked by water cultists for unknown reasons - I washed up on shore, eventually married up w/ the adventuring party, looking to take revenge, make some gold, gain some renown, and go back to my pirating ways. Chaotic Good - Robin Hood, anti-authority type of pirate. Only targeted greedy merchant ships or government privateers, used gold/influence to help the less advantaged when I felt like being "goody" but definitely can be selfish and overly fond of treasure/alcohol.

Thanks for the input!

[Man_Over_Game]

Hey, Pete (or anyone else), this might seem odd, but I'd like to ask you a favor and use your Expertise on the topic of this thread.

I've developed a list of alternate attributes for classes to use in my Prestige Options homebrew, each having specific restrictions on how you're allowed to multiclass.

If you have time, could you take a look and see if you can come up with anything particularly overpowered from multiclassing with these rules? They're really simple, so it shouldn't take someone like you more than a minute to figure out how it all works. I've ruled out most unbalanced things I can think of, but I might have missed something.

Hopefully someone with your experience could provide some insight.

[PeteNutButter]

Yeah, the object is to dart in and out, being highly mobile and using my flourishes tactically and flight to keep horizontal/vertical distance to avoid harm - helping to save spell slots from using shield, etc. That way I can fight on my terms rather than get stuck as a squishy bard/lock in melee.

Bard 5 to get short rest recharges and lvl 3 spells, then just one more to 6 to get extra attack. Then MC Warlock for CHA bonuses next level and get to 3 for improved pact weapon (weapon can be focus for Warlock spells - can already be focus for Bard spells due to Swords), opting to go to 4 simply so I'm not missing out on an easy ASI; then back to bard or keep going Warlock. Leaning Bard atm, but looking for input on that post-lvl-10 progression. Not really losing spells slots because I get the short rest recharges on Lock slots, and I can use either Lock or Bard slots to cast either (unless the spell specifically say so, which isn't many of them).

I'm opting for Light armor specifically because we're using Variant Encumbrance and the Medium armor MIGHT get me 1 AC over Light after accounting for my DEX bonus, but I have to shed all the weight I can.

I'm looking at Hexblade specifically because it gives shield proficiency (small AC bonus used w/ my dueling fighting style); the charisma modifiers to my weapons instead of DEX/STR; Hexblade Curse is great for tough enemies, and the expanded spell list gives more Smite options for extra damage if desired/necessary.

So, combat = buff/heal before and during as necessary, control spells if necessary, eldritch blast for range, melee damage by darting in, hitting twice w/ rapier using cha mods and dueling bonus, stack smites for extra damage if necessary, use bardic inspiration for extra damage if necessary and/or tactical advantage, either remain or escape freely and vertically w/ flourish if desirable. Rinse/repeat!

For RP as an fyi; playing Princes of the Apocalypse - character was Pirate captain and ship was wrecked by water cultists for unknown reasons - I washed up on shore, eventually married up w/ the adventuring party, looking to take revenge, make some gold, gain some renown, and go back to my pirating ways. Chaotic Good - Robin Hood, anti-authority type of pirate. Only targeted greedy merchant ships or government privateers, used gold/influence to help the less advantaged when I felt like being "goody" but definitely can be selfish and overly fond of treasure/alcohol.

Thanks for the input!

It certainly depends on what your cha vs dex/str is. If you have a really high charisma and low physical stats, it could potentially be worth it to get hexblade sooner. Generally the math favors Bard 6 ASAP, as it doubles your attacks. You could still dip out of bard sooner just for the feel of it, but I'd only risk one level in warlock before getting extra attack.

Hey, Pete (or anyone else), this might seem odd, but I'd like to ask you a favor and use your Expertise on the topic of this thread.

I've developed a list of alternate attributes for classes to use in my Prestige Options homebrew, each having specific restrictions on how you're allowed to multiclass.

If you have time, could you take a look and see if you can come up with anything particularly overpowered from multiclassing with these rules? They're really simple, so it shouldn't take someone like you more than a minute to figure out how it all works. I've ruled out most unbalanced things I can think of, but I might have missed something.

Hopefully someone with your experience could provide some insight.

I'll check it out...

[Man_Over_Game]

I'll check it out...

Thanks a bunch in advance, man!

[catalyst20xx]

It certainly depends on what your cha vs dex/str is. If you have a really high charisma and low physical stats, it could potentially be worth it to get hexblade sooner. Generally the math favors Bard 6 ASAP, as it doubles your attacks. You could still dip out of bard sooner just for the feel of it, but I'd only risk one level in warlock before getting extra attack.

Currently at lvl 2, my DEX and CHA mod are identical, DEX 16 (+3), CHA 17 (+3). Once I hit 4 that'll obviously change, I'll prob take a bump in CHA and in CON so I can go to 18/12. I think by level 5 though, with short recharge for Inspire and Lvl 3 spells for Bard, it's better to do that instead of dip Warlock for a simple +1/+1 to weapon. Then it's only 1 to lvl 6 for extra attack, again pushing off the dip. That's the primary reason I was going to go that route. Any other tips/advice/guidance is appreciated. Thanks.

P.S. - What's up with that HUGE character post above!?

[stoutstien]

P.S. - What's up with that HUGE character post above!?

Just spam. Best bet just ignore

[PeteNutButter]

Currently at lvl 2, my DEX and CHA mod are identical, DEX 16 (+3), CHA 17 (+3). Once I hit 4 that'll obviously change, I'll prob take a bump in CHA and in CON so I can go to 18/12. I think by level 5 though, with short recharge for Inspire and Lvl 3 spells for Bard, it's better to do that instead of dip Warlock for a simple +1/+1 to weapon. Then it's only 1 to lvl 6 for extra attack, again pushing off the dip. That's the primary reason I was going to go that route. Any other tips/advice/guidance is appreciated. Thanks.

P.S. - What's up with that HUGE character post above!?

Well not so much a tip, but a mention that a lot of people don't realize. You can use TWF with hexblade as the level 1 and pact weapon +cha weapons are separate. Works well if you feel inclined to use TWF over the shield and single weapon.

Shield spell is a must of course, but a very strict RAW will not allow you to cast shield with hands full even after you have improved pact weapon, since it has no material component. Most DMs just handwave that. If not, war caster is now a feat tax.

You might consider just taking 1 level in hexblade, then pushing bard to 10. Lots of goodies there in magical secrets. I'm a fan of find greater steed, perhaps combined with an upcast Armor of Agathys (from warlock).

[catalyst20xx]

Well not so much a tip, but a mention that a lot of people don't realize. You can use TWF with hexblade as the level 1 and pact weapon +cha weapons are separate. Works well if you feel inclined to use TWF over the shield and single weapon.

Shield spell is a must of course, but a very strict RAW will not allow you to cast shield with hands full even after you have improved pact weapon, since it has no material component. Most DMs just handwave that. If not, war caster is now a feat tax.

You might consider just taking 1 level in hexblade, then pushing bard to 10. Lots of goodies there in magical secrets. I'm a fan of find greater steed, perhaps combined with an upcast Armor of Agathys (from warlock).

Two things: 1) The way I was interpreting the CHA bonus was that it was only a single weapon; but I see now how it could be interpreted to virtually any weapon that meets the requirements along with the pact weapon since it specifies "this feature extends to . . ." I was hung up on the level 1 "a particular weapon" phrasing.

Secondly, I thought War Caster specifically says it allows you to cast the somatic component of a spell with (your hands full weapon/shield). Nothing about material component. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that mean not having a material component is irrelevant. In this case, you aren't using your weapon/shield as a focus, just that you can perform the somatic component without a free hand.

I'll probably end up dual wielding w/ a normal and pact weapon for those juicy CHA mods on both then. I'd prefer TWF to dueling for better damage output and rely on mobility/abilities/spells to keep me healthy.

[PeteNutButter]

Two things: 1) The way I was interpreting the CHA bonus was that it was only a single weapon; but I see now how it could be interpreted to virtually any weapon that meets the requirements along with the pact weapon since it specifies "this feature extends to . . ." I was hung up on the level 1 "a particular weapon" phrasing.

Secondly, I thought War Caster specifically says it allows you to cast the somatic component of a spell with (your hands full weapon/shield). Nothing about material component. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that mean not having a material component is irrelevant. In this case, you aren't using your weapon/shield as a focus, just that you can perform the somatic component without a free hand.

I'll probably end up dual wielding w/ a normal and pact weapon for those juicy CHA mods on both then. I'd prefer TWF to dueling for better damage output and rely on mobility/abilities/spells to keep me healthy.

The issue with war caster is it allows you to perform somatic components of spells with your hands full. The swords bard and hexblade features allow your weapons to be spell foci. The potential issue is for spells that do not have a material component (like shield) the rules imply you can only use a focus for spells that have a material component. To be honest it's a bit contrived and I don't think most DMs would bother to rule in such a silly unfun way.

"A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the [material] components specified for a spell."
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."

These and the TWF thing are both probably best left in the territory of ask your DM.

[catalyst20xx]

The issue with war caster is it allows you to perform somatic components of spells with your hands full. The swords bard and hexblade features allow your weapons to be spell foci. The potential issue is for spells that do not have a material component (like shield) the rules imply you can only use a focus for spells that have a material component. To be honest it's a bit contrived and I don't think most DMs would bother to rule in such a silly unfun way.

"A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the [material] components specified for a spell."
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."

These and the TWF thing are both probably best left in the territory of ask your DM.

I agree. Thanks for your input!

[Urizen382]

Hello, All,
I'm new to this website so I apologize if I'm not posting in the correct area/ following the correct procedure. I just wanted to make sure I was reading the Wizard/Cleric multiclass correctly. It says, "Invoker" as the Wizard subclass. Is that... Evocation? I'm playing a one shot soon and I wanted to give this a try. Thanks!

[PeteNutButter]

Hello, All,
I'm new to this website so I apologize if I'm not posting in the correct area/ following the correct procedure. I just wanted to make sure I was reading the Wizard/Cleric multiclass correctly. It says, "Invoker" as the Wizard subclass. Is that... Evocation? I'm playing a one shot soon and I wanted to give this a try. Thanks!

Yes, that is what I meant. Old school terminology probably...

[Urizen382]

Yes, that is what I meant. Old school terminology probably...

Awesome. Thank you! Yeah, I thought it might have been. Just wanted to make sure. I jumped in about... A year or so ago now? So I'm still newish. Really enjoying the game and community!

[LiaLili]

Hello! Thank you so much for this, this is a SUPER useful resource!

I do have one question. I'm a total beginner so pardon me if I sound noob-ish. I'm not 100% sure what "Warlock 5+/Sorcerer 4+" means. Does it mean start multiclassing at Warlock 5 and work up to Sorcerer 4 (and keep them one level apart from there), or does it mean multiclass ASAP and keep Warlock one level above Sorcerer as you level?

[Aimeryan]

Hello! Thank you so much for this, this is a SUPER useful resource!

I do have one question. I'm a total beginner so pardon me if I sound noob-ish. I'm not 100% sure what "Warlock 5+/Sorcerer 4+" means. Does it mean start multiclassing at Warlock 5 and work up to Sorcerer 4 (and keep them one level apart from there), or does it mean multiclass ASAP and keep Warlock one level above Sorcerer as you level?

It is a suggestion to take Warlock to a minimum of 5 and Sorcerer to a minimum of 4, then proceed as you like in either.

[PeteNutButter]

Hello! Thank you so much for this, this is a SUPER useful resource!

I do have one question. I'm a total beginner so pardon me if I sound noob-ish. I'm not 100% sure what "Warlock 5+/Sorcerer 4+" means. Does it mean start multiclassing at Warlock 5 and work up to Sorcerer 4 (and keep them one level apart from there), or does it mean multiclass ASAP and keep Warlock one level above Sorcerer as you level?

It's just a basis for what the build requires. You can level as you see fit. Generally though, you'll want sorcerer first for con save proficiency and then rush warlock 2. The rest is up to you. Once you're at Sorcerer 1/Warlock 2 (with agonizing blast invocation) you really can't screw the build up. Warlock gives more short rest power. Sorcerer gives more sorcery points which you'll want in the long run to quicken Eldritch Blast.

[DibbleDobble]

Hiya! New guy here, I have nowhere else to ask, but I'm not sure if you guys are cool with homebrew. If so, I was wondering how multiclassing a bard and an audiomancer (Fights w/ sound based spells) and was wondering how that build would work, and if its possible to do on an Avilian (7-10 Inch bird race). Thanks for any possible consideration, I hope this isn't "unacceptable" since it isn't in the books.

[PeteNutButter]

Hiya! New guy here, I have nowhere else to ask, but I'm not sure if you guys are cool with homebrew. If so, I was wondering how multiclassing a bard and an audiomancer (Fights w/ sound based spells) and was wondering how that build would work, and if its possible to do on an Avilian (7-10 Inch bird race). Thanks for any possible consideration, I hope this isn't "unacceptable" since it isn't in the books.

Sorry, I can't really help with homebrew, because I'd have to have experience with it in play. Your best bet is to make a new thread, and hope someone else can give you some input.

[DibbleDobble]

Sorry, I can't really help with homebrew, because I'd have to have experience with it in play. Your best bet is to make a new thread, and hope someone else can give you some input.

That's fine, thanks for the help though!

[Nobodythatshere]

I would say this one definitely falls under "Niche/situational cheese" category but might be worth pointing out another possible use of a Wizard/Warlock multiclass, using Armor of Shadows to replenish your Arcane Ward out of combat.

[PeteNutButter]

I would say this one definitely falls under "Niche/situational cheese" category but might be worth pointing out another possible use of a Wizard/Warlock multiclass, using Armor of Shadows to replenish your Arcane Ward out of combat.

Definitely a niche ability, but I could mention it. I'm not sure it's worth it, depending on the campaign. Ritual alarm is tedious but does the same effect, if time isn't a big issue. People also use the Deep Gnome trick to do the same thing by spending a feat to be able to spam nondetection.

[KyleG]

I just wanted to say i quite often refer to these when im creating a character, even though i have yet to multiclass i like to consider the flavor and story that could go into it. Your names for your multi classes and some amazing art from the internet go along way to convey the right sense of your characters.

So Im wondering what you might be able to do with a Deep Gnome Wizard of the War Magic College. Your Mystic Theurge intrigued me for my character who has spent the past 100 years as a tutor for several generations of a family and i wondered whether he had perhaps taken another class in that time. Unfortunately the example of a tempest cleric i didnt feel fit the character but it certainly has made me consider whether i should infact take War Magic.

[PeteNutButter]

I just wanted to say i quite often refer to these when im creating a character, even though i have yet to multiclass i like to consider the flavor and story that could go into it. Your names for your multi classes and some amazing art from the internet go along way to convey the right sense of your characters.

So Im wondering what you might be able to do with a Deep Gnome Wizard of the War Magic College. Your Mystic Theurge intrigued me for my character who has spent the past 100 years as a tutor for several generations of a family and i wondered whether he had perhaps taken another class in that time. Unfortunately the example of a tempest cleric i didnt feel fit the character but it certainly has made me consider whether i should infact take War Magic.

It's all about what you're looking to get or what sort fluff you are going for. A single level in cleric can do wonders for any wizard if they want to be able to survive a good bit more and support their teammates with things like bless and healing word.

Life Cleric is always a great choice if you like supporting, and could make a good medic type character. Really you can't go wrong with anything. They'll all give medium armor, and shields and the good level 1 spells.

[Zigludo]

This thread is awesome. Your write-ups in the OP have given me a lot to think about and influenced how I think about the game.

Do you include content from GGR? Because if so I think you should consider tossing in a few STR-based Monk multiclasses using minotaur which I think outperforms V Human. Although these are, as you put it, "non-Monky Monks." With point buy you get the Minotaur to 16 STR and CON, 13 DEX and WIS. Then you either start with a single Fighter level, or dip a level in Cleric (probably Forge, maybe War for martial prof) to get heavy armor + shield. This allows you to go STR>CON instead of DEX>WIS and has lots of advantages:

+much better AC early (18/19 with a shield, 16/17 with a 2 hander, vs 16 for a Monk). AC can now be improved hugely by magic armor in later levels, no longer capping at 20
+better weapon damage (you can flurry after attacking with a Greatsword)
+better HP in the later levels once you can start investing in CON
+better grapples
+better jumps (synergy with Step of the Wind)
+spells (cleric)


of course there are disadvantages:
-no martial arts dice
this is neatly patched by the Minotaur's horns, which actually deal more damage than martial arts in tier 1, the same amount in tier 2, and only falls off slightly in tiers 3 and 4.

-no bonus action unarmed strike
a significant loss, but the Minotaur still does equal or slightly better damage with a martial weapon + fighting style. Kensei patches this somewhat with Kensei's Shot; you'll have to take Darts as your ranged weapon since you're using STR.

-bad Stunning Strike DC due to lack of WIS
Seems painful at first, but Kensei comes to the rescue again; you won't want to spend your Ki on Stunning Strike so instead you'll be burning it all on Flurry, and later on Sharpen the Blade, which is fine.

-no Unarmored Movement
No way around this, really.


Basically it's a monk that trades away stuns and mobility for a lot more damage and survival. You can also start Barbarian for rage, but I'd hate to have you replaced your ninja turtle listed under monk/barb. Sorry if this is a flood, I guess I'm just gushing about STR Minotaur monk multiclasses, lol. Wondering what you think.

[PeteNutButter]

This thread is awesome. Your write-ups in the OP have given me a lot to think about and influenced how I think about the game.

Do you include content from GGR? Because if so I think you should consider tossing in a few STR-based Monk multiclasses using minotaur which I think outperforms V Human. Although these are, as you put it, "non-Monky Monks." With point buy you get the Minotaur to 16 STR and CON, 13 DEX and WIS. Then you either start with a single Fighter level, or dip a level in Cleric (probably Forge, maybe War for martial prof) to get heavy armor + shield. This allows you to go STR>CON instead of DEX>WIS and has lots of advantages:

+much better AC early (18/19 with a shield, 16/17 with a 2 hander, vs 16 for a Monk). AC can now be improved hugely by magic armor in later levels, no longer capping at 20
+better weapon damage (you can flurry after attacking with a Greatsword)
+better HP in the later levels once you can start investing in CON
+better grapples
+better jumps (synergy with Step of the Wind)
+spells (cleric)


of course there are disadvantages:
-no martial arts dice
this is neatly patched by the Minotaur's horns, which actually deal more damage than martial arts in tier 1, the same amount in tier 2, and only falls off slightly in tiers 3 and 4.

-no bonus action unarmed strike
a significant loss, but the Minotaur still does equal or slightly better damage with a martial weapon + fighting style. Kensei patches this somewhat with Kensei's Shot; you'll have to take Darts as your ranged weapon since you're using STR.

-bad Stunning Strike DC due to lack of WIS
Seems painful at first, but Kensei comes to the rescue again; you won't want to spend your Ki on Stunning Strike so instead you'll be burning it all on Flurry, and later on Sharpen the Blade, which is fine.

-no Unarmored Movement
No way around this, really.


Basically it's a monk that trades away stuns and mobility for a lot more damage and survival. You can also start Barbarian for rage, but I'd hate to have you replaced your ninja turtle listed under monk/barb. Sorry if this is a flood, I guess I'm just gushing about STR Minotaur monk multiclasses, lol. Wondering what you think.

Non-monky monks are definitely a fun idea. I've played around with them in low levels, but always ended up playing something different in tier two. My main thing with them is what do I gain over a traditional monk. There are two options, either daamge or tankiness.

On the damage front, strength attacks open up the rage, which is what makes my Tortle character so effective, additionally you have access to GWM if you are ok using a non-monk weapon. For this path, the tortle is best, because he can do this without giving up his monk features, like mobility, and having good stuns.

On the defense front, things like the Minotaur work well. You're best bet is heavy armor, shield, and kensei. With bonus action dodge, you've got a near unhittable AC against many things. If you went with cleric you can even toss on shield of faith. With fighter, take defense FS. Depending on what level you expect to get to, you might want to dip out of monk after 8, since monk 9 is a dead level. Though if you seriously expect to get to monk 14, you can suffer through it.

[KyleG]

Researching for a religiously indoctrined rogue, kinda like silas from the da vinci code and was looking at your rogue/cleric build. Ill be either kalashtar or wildhunt shifter. Thinking death or grave for the cleric subclass and inquisitive or assassin for the rogue. Split I've worked out would be a 12/8 rogue/cleric or maybe 14/6. What are your thoughts? Perhaps I just play a religious zealot rogue no multiclass. But I like the idea that these cleric levels just manifest as a divine gift further fueling his zealotry. He is for sure telling his allies "the raven queen says not today" as he heals them. Always with a smile, death is not the end.

[PeteNutButter]

Researching for a religiously indoctrined rogue, kinda like silas from the da vinci code and was looking at your rogue/cleric build. Ill be either kalashtar or wildhunt shifter. Thinking death or grave for the cleric subclass and inquisitive or assassin for the rogue. Split I've worked out would be a 12/8 rogue/cleric or maybe 14/6. What are your thoughts? Perhaps I just play a religious zealot rogue no multiclass. But I like the idea that these cleric levels just manifest as a divine gift further fueling his zealotry. He is for sure telling his allies "the raven queen says not today" as he heals them. Always with a smile, death is not the end.

I like grave + rogue.

Favored Soul could also work if you'd prefer the character to be cha based, and would fit better with powers just manifesting.

I'd probably just keep cleric as a dip, and focus on rogue. You get all your damage from sneak attack, so you only really want a few spells. You'll start to suffer on damage if you spend too many levels away and aren't getting something like extra attack in return. Alternatively, a higher cleric dip does allow you to serve as a more practical healer.

Assassin is good thematically, but mechanically you might want to consider going Swashbuckler so you can effectively get the disengage effect and still have a bonus action to toss out a healing word. Although you can always stick to a ranged rogue, and not have to worry about disengaging as an assassin.