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2020-05-04, 03:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
These claims are extreme hyperbole. No, Stealth is not hopeless (especially if the PC takes Stealth proficiency), even with low Dex and disadvantage from heavy armor. Not only do many monsters have fairly low passive Perception, not only does Stealth proficiency go a long way towards offsetting low Dex and disadvantage, not only are there many ways to boost Stealth, but the d20 roll still swamps modifiers. "Will probably never succeed [on] a stealth roll?" Please.
For what? Being a bit less MAD when you're already running a multiclass with 4 prereqs? It isn't even a difficult stat array to satisfy:
HElf point buy can give you: 16 14 14 8 10 14 at level 1, your primary stat is on par with most other optimised builds, your Con is respectable and the only thing you had to dump was Int. In this specific instance you still have the option of picking up EA at somepoint to crit fish if that tickles your fancy.
So you end up with: The ability to actually rage (better at-will DPS, resistance, advantage on Str checks), better initiative, better Dex saves, better Dex skills, better naked AC if caught out of armor and the option to not even have disadvantage on stealth (breast plate or half plate (with MAM). Where's the benefit here of dumping Dex? You can even still wear heavy armor if you want to with that stat array (though I'm not seeing why you'd prioritise 1AC over all of the other benefits, especially resistance and Dex saves). Dumping Dex when you don't absolutely have to make very little sense and has a not trivial amount of drawbacks.
RE: "and the option to not even have disadvantage on stealth (breast plate or half plate (with MAM)", you have that option already because you're part-Barbarian. Even with Dex 8 you can still put on a breastplate (AC 13 + 2 for shield) to nullify Stealth disadvantage, and rely on Rage to offset your low AC for that part of the adventure.
I'm not taking a position overall on Barb/Paladin as a build. All I'm trying to do is point out that Dex 14 costs a lot and isn't always worth it, and that having low Dex isn't as crippling as Dork_Forge is claiming. That is all.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-05-04 at 03:30 AM.
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2020-05-04, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
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- Finland
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Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
Base Class: Warlord | Roguish Archetype: Inquisitor | Roguish Archetype: Thug | Primal Path: Rage Mage
Ongoing game & character:
Sajan Uttam, human Monk 6/Fist of Irori 3 (Legacy of Fire)
D&D/Pathfinder CV of sorts
3.0 since 2002
3.5 since 2003
4e since 2008
Pathfinder 1e since 2008
5e since 2014
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2020-05-04, 04:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
The d20 has the potential to outweigh modifiers yes, rolling at disadvantage with a flat -1 makes it unlikely you'd make most checks unless you specifically take a background or burna floating choice for stealth prof. Even then you're pitching realistically 2-4 from prof against -6 (disadvantage and modifier) and still coming out at a loss. IF you have someone with Pass Without Trace AND they have the slots to cast it (and want to spend a slot to do so) then you can come out on top. Vs just not putting yourself with those hurdles to overcome to begin with.
You also talk a lot about tactics and what the players can do, whilst disregarding (or appearing to) the value of modifiers and essentially saying 'well you could just get lucky on the d20.' That's not even considering that some Stealth checks will likely just be out of your reach, crit success isn't a thing on skills and DCs can easily go outside your attainable (or likely attainable) checks. Of course there are specific things that can counter these things and there likely always will be, but why put yourself in the position to need good rolls and help from others when you don't need to and arguably there's no benefit great enough to do so.
I'm not completely following your stat rolls here. Since you need Str 13 Con 13 in order to multiclass, and you're assigning 16 to Cha, I think you're proposing Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 16, is that right? I.e. you're dumping Int and Wis. If so, clearly one thing that dumping Dex could buy you is a better Wis. That's important to some people who expect to face lots of mental attacks. Alternately, it could buy you higher attack/damage rolls and a feat: Str 16 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 16 human (Polearm Master) has over 3x the offensive output of your half-elf at low levels.
The fixed stat array addresses attack/damage, V. Human feat is always going to be powerful and tempting, but your array now fully dumps Dex and Int and leaves Wis at a 10 with your core stats no better off. I'm not sure where the 3x bit comes from (are you just adding together the higher modifier you were assuming with the bonus attack?) but the V. Human feat always comes at a price: you don't have Darkvision (a tactical disadvantage off the bat), your stat array suffers from only +2 from the race and you have no other racial traits besides a skill (which you'll likely need to use to counteract your low stats anyway seeing as Str has one skill and Con has none).
RE: "and the option to not even have disadvantage on stealth (breast plate or half plate (with MAM)", you have that option already because you're part-Barbarian. Even with Dex 8 you can still put on a breastplate (AC 13 + 2 for shield) to nullify Stealth disadvantage, and rely on Rage to offset your low AC for that part of the adventure.
I'm not taking a position overall on Barb/Paladin as a build. All I'm trying to do is point out that Dex 14 costs a lot and isn't always worth it, and that having low Dex isn't as crippling as Dork_Forge is claiming. That is all.
Edit: I think my opinion can be summed up in a lot of ways like this- If you don't NEED to dump Dex, then you're probably better off not doing so.
It isn't irrelevant at all, there's a difference between going first and just going before the bad guys, I consider going before the bad guys a win. If you always/most of the time went first overall your casters wouldn't get the chance to place any buffs (Haste, Bless etc.) down for you to benefit from on the first turn.Last edited by Dork_Forge; 2020-05-04 at 05:10 AM. Reason: typos and format
For D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge
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2020-05-27, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2020
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
What do you guys think about the Battlesmith 5 War Wizard 15 combo? Maybe grab a level in fighter?
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2020-05-27, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
For D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge
Feel free to message for any build requests or challenges
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2020-05-27, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2020
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
Hi everyone. What do you think about a Battlesmith Art 12 / Trickster Rogue 8? Hand crossbow and shield w/ crossbow expert? Human Variant. Or a Wu Jen Mystic / Battlesmith Art with a shield and sword <_< oh the possibilities..
Last edited by Zotharius; 2020-05-27 at 08:06 PM.
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2020-05-27, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2020
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2020-05-28, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
Personally I'd go Immortal/Battlesmith so you get the most out of pumping your Int (the temp hp), between Beastial Form and the focus of Mastery of Earth and Wood your AC in Fights would get pretty high (with Shield to back it up)
If you went mostly War Wizard you'd end up with a tanky Wizard but besides access to more support casting through the Artificer I think you'd mostly just end up with an underpowered caster (significantly behind in spell level known). I'd suggest instead focusing on Battle Smith with War Wizard being more of a dip (up to 4th at most for ASI+2nd level spells maybe), Flash of Genius is a great ability you'll want to nab (so is Arcane Jolt at 9th) but besides that you'll end up not only with more hp for yourself, but your Steel Defender (if you left the dip at 5, the SD would age very badly, ending up getting taken out in most challenging fights and becoming an unnecessary drain on spell slots). A Fighter level can also be great for the style and Second Wind, but if you're dipping minimum 2 for War Wizard as well you're going to be really delaying your abilities unless you start at a higher level.For D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge
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2020-05-28, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2020
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
I liked the idea of wizard also because of Tensor's Transformation, it just seems like such a juicy spell for a battlesmith that can get 3 attacks per turn. That's a 6th level spell for wizard. I'm not entirely knowledgable on how the multiclass spellcasting works. I know I need to be an 11th level caster but how many of those levels have to be wizard? Do you think it would be worth it?
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2020-05-28, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
You calculate your slots as a result of your multiclass (youw Wizard level+half your Artificer level rounded up) but you calculate spells known for each of your classes like you're single classed. So for Tenser's you need to be 11 levels just in Wizard, if you want that spell specifically then you'd probably be better off not going 5 in Battle Smith (the proficiencies and Extra Attack from the spell become irrelevant), though unless you're going to play a game that start in late tier 2 or you level up very quickly, I wouldn't build everything around such a high level spell.
It's a great spell but honestly just being a Battle Smith and building those things up separately (getting access to a source of temp hp, advantage and extra damage) would probably be better (especially since your SD wouldn't be suffering in the hp department). Consider just dipping 3 in War Wizard and then using False Life (temp hp with one hour duration) and Shadow Blade (spell that creates a weapon that does good damage and can easily get advantage), that should hit a lot of the notes you want from Tenser's but at a lower level.For D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge
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2020-05-28, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2020
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2020-08-09, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2020
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
I was looking through this and noticed a slight error. Fighters don't actually get Con Save proficiency, just Strength and Dex.
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2020-08-09, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
Avatar by me. Behold my art thread for a bigger-resolution view.
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2020-10-28, 02:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
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Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
Just noticed as my friend was interested in a druid warlock that in your warlock with a druid dip your classes said they go shepherd but the text suggests dreams druid. I think shepherd makes more sense for a support character and dreams seems redundant.
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2021-05-03, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2021
Barbarian / Bladesinger Multiclass??!? (BladeBarian)
You know, IÂ’ve thought of a way to potentially make a Barbarian / Wizard multiclass work. I call it the BladeBarian and itÂ’s a Barb. / Bladesinger Combo! I havenÂ’t thought it out completely but start with focusing on Str. & Int. and drop Con for now. ThatÂ’s bad so I took Human V. and gave him Tough for extra HP. Next for ASIÂ’s (if weÂ’re doing the Point Buy Method):
16, 14, 12, 16, 8, 8.
So I did +2 into Str. & +1 into Int. However now youÂ’re going to say that the AC will be quite terrible. And that would be the case if it werenÂ’t for Bladesong; you gain a bonus to your AC equal to your Intelligence modifier. ThatÂ’s a +3. Add that to our measly 12 AC (from the BarbarianÂ’s UD), and thatÂ’s just enough to get us to 15 AC.
Next for weapons, it says from the books that you cannot use Bladesong if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. To me, it:
1. DoesnÂ’t specify what weapon you can use. As in Simple or Martial.
2. Says that I cannot use Bladesong if I use both hands to attack with A weapon, or a single weapon (like a Greataxe or a Pike). But it doesnÂ’t say I couldnÂ’t use two-weapon fighting.
This will probably still be bottom of the barrel in terms of viability but I think itÂ’s slightly better then the War Wizard Combo. But what do I know, since IÂ’ve never played a Wizard before!!
IÂ’m not going to go much further then that as I havenÂ’t had Breakfast yet and IÂ’m empty! Please let me know if this is viable or if IÂ’m completely wrong.
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2021-05-03, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: Barbarian / Bladesinger Multiclass??!? (BladeBarian)
You could do something like this and certainly have fun with the concept, if you aim is something optimised then it falls fairly short:
-Your AC is higher than you think, with that statline it's a baseline AC 13, but you'd be far better off using Mage Armor for AC 15 before Bladesong
-This build will struggle with resources and action economy, you need two rounds/bonus actions for Rage and Bladesong and you'll only have enough Rages for 2-3 combats a day for most of the time
-With Tough you'll still not only struggle with max HP (you're still 1*level behind a straight Barbarian, assuming level 1 is Barbarian) and short rest recovery. You're going to have some d6 hit die and a low Con, but a chunk of HP from Tough
-Damage will be eh at best, in reality you're going to spend two rounds just attacking with a d6 weapon since the bonus you need for TWF is consumed by Rage and the Bladesong
-Wisdom saves are going to be rough
Bladesinger adds in more complication for little benefit imo, and trying to fill the roll of stick and hit tanking like other Barbarians is going to lead to going down very quickly (as you'll have both lower AC and HP than a normal Barbarian).
So I guess the question is, what are you looking to get out of the Wizard levels?For D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge
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2021-05-04, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2021
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
This thread has been officially necro'ed.
I steal Signatures, and like General Grevious, add them to my collection. Or, I would, if there wasn't a forum limit to signature length.
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2021-05-05, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2017
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
Yep. I find it a pretty good thread and original post but the forum mods are usually pretty draconian about shutting down threads that haven't been accessed and this one was dormant for almost 7 months.
It might be useful if the forums would allow pinning of some of the more useful persistent threads. Or maybe add it to the notable threads list.Last edited by Keravath; 2021-05-05 at 10:40 AM.
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2021-10-01, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2021
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
Is there any plan to add in the Blood Hunter from Critical Role?
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2021-10-02, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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- DC Area
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Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
Lovely resource here, thanks for all the work that went into this!
I was browsing through the sky blues just to see what kond of things were rated highly, and came across the rogue/artificer:
"Rogue/Art
Dipping artificer gives medium armor & shields, some useful spells, and magic items. This is a solid, versatile that opens lots of doors."
It seems pretty scant and I'm not sure what the benefits are that make it skyblue. BB/GFB are nice, but a lot of 5th level artificers get 2nd attack. Heavy armor isnt worth a lot for 1 AC and becoming way more MAD, shield prof is good but up to 5 levels for level 2 MAD spellcasting don't seem too appealing... what am I missing here? I feel like theres a specific plan here I'm not noticing. It might be worth having an example build for one of the most highly rated combos.
Thanks!!
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2021-10-24, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
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Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
Thanks! Good point! I was definitely scant with a lot of the later additions as I have run out of space. At some point I plan to remake the thread with more reserved posts.
As for the dip in question, it isn't more MAD since you can go STR build instead of DEX. Shields on Rogues are a solid addition. Honestly, I haven't dabbled in D&D 5e for over a year, so I can't exactly elaborate on wtf I was thinking.
I plan to be digging into it again to update this guide soon.Last edited by PeteNutButter; 2021-10-25 at 07:57 AM.
Want to Multiclass? I wrote the book on it:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...classing-Guide
Expect advice on the optimization rules you are breaking: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-Optimization
I am an avid optimizer and love to give fire to the people... So long as they are restrained first so they have disadvantage on their dex saves.
Feel free to PM me for one on one build advice.
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2021-10-25, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2021
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
I haven't figured it out in this multiclassing........
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2022-04-03, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
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Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
I hope this isn't thread necro but this has been so helpful for me the moment you posted it. And furthermore it has really helped my GF as she has been getting more interested in multiclassing in order to make more interesting mechanics for her characters. From the bottom of my heart thank you.
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2022-04-08, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Currently Tampa
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Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
I'm the center of attention only when I want to be. I am the bard. I'm the power behind the throne. Its where I want to be. I am... Superfunkidiculous.
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2022-08-31, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
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- Currently Tampa
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2022-09-21, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2022
Re: Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide
For ranger/ sorcerer it would be MAD, but really I would off set that by focusing more on dex and cha scores, and shouldn’t be tough to get in there a 14 or so for wisdom just to qualify ranger requirement. If you can get past the MADness then it’s a very good ranger aoe danage soaker. I recommend the MotM bugbear for race , and classes as 11 hunter ranger/ 9 divine soul sorcerer. True cleric would be more SAD, but wouldn’t be good enough for this build. Metamagic go quicken spell/ extended spell. This build might use hunter’s mark at start, and at lvl 1 should go sorcerer for con saves, but lvl 2 should be ranger and continue so til extra attack. This is then where I would do 4 more lvls in sorcerer to get metamagic and fireball. It also gives spiritual weapon which scales damage with the build as it can be up casted, and does reach a lvl 8 slot to max out spiritual weapon with (4d8+mod force damage, and cast it with extended spell.) by 9 lvls in sorcerer you get to holy weapon , and this pairs really well with 11 lvls in ranger for volley. I would save the spiritual weapon for when you getting too low to keep quickening spells to cast as a bonus action with volley. Because it gets to lvl 5 sorcerer spells and lvl 3 ranger spells and is a lvl 15 caster for spell slots for font of magic fodder and upcasting, it has some longevity with casting. By lvl 16 you should be able to start getting this more fully on line with having both volley and fireball or other lvl 3 sorcerer spells to quicken with. Volley if enemy is fully clustered has a chance to hit 25 foes in a round with its 20ft to 25ft sphere of effect ( depending if you count the point in between squares or a square as the point.) I did a test using perfect world situations max damage, always hits so on over 5 turns with just a standard heavy crossbow. Assuming there was 25 enemy in range for volley +horde breaker and 1st round I quicken casted holy weapon, after that my bonus action was to cast vitriolic sphere with a volley+ horde breaker every turn after it totaled 15k damage or 120 damage per target hit x 25 targets x 5 rounds. You tell me if that is not worth the bit of MADness. Also I recommend using magic weapon by lvl 2 ranger spells, and elemental weapon by lvl 3 ranger spells over hunter’s mark. Unless you get a magic weapon before lvl 2 spells, and by lvl 3 ranger spells I would then use flame arrows over hunter’s mark . Holy weapon though is the superior choice to use with volley though since it hits everything hit by volley or horde breaker with an extra 2d8 radiant damage. 2d8 x 25 for volley clustered foes+1 for horde breaker = 52 to 416 extra damage total .