OOTS #353 - The Discussion Thread

[Doug_Lampert]

People keep thinking that Durkon's going to get demolished in this fight. I'm going to hold the opposite - he'll stand a pretty good chance. I honestly dunno if these carried over into 3.5ed, but I distinctly remember dwarves getting bonuses to their fights with big tall things, just because they were so short they had the big guys at a disadvantage.

Eh? Eh?

Who thinks Durkon is gonna loose?

BtW, Dwarfs do get a bonus against Giants. Gnome Druids in Dire Bear form aren't Giants.

But Durkon doesn't need that bonus.
Durkon'll will win because he's a PC. Because Durkon loosing wouldn't be funny. Because Leaky is outnumbered (even if V is out I wouldn't discount Julia completely). Because Kitty isn't there and is a non-negligable part of Leaky's fighting strength. Because Leaky is badly hurt, depleted in spells, and short a staff, while Durkon is fresh. Because at level 13 I think Clerics are at least as strong as Druids, if Durkon is also level 13 then Harm isn't even one of his best spells (he could easily have Destruction prepared, make your fort save and still take 10d6 damage, and you really don't want to fail...). Because while we don't know what Durkon's domains are Strength is a good bet and Thor's Might + Strength Domain stacks for a +21 to Strength for one round at level 13 plus the other benefits of Righteous Might.

[Allandaros]

I counted at least six people betting on Leeky in the first four (or so) pages of the thread, is all.

I defer to people's superior knowledge of 3.5e mechanics. Heck, of mechanics of high-level characters in general. I didn't get anything beyond 5th/5th level or so in 2e...

[okpokalypse]

Druids: winning D&D since 3.5.

Stars of such hits as "I'm A Giant Bear Who Can Cast Spells" and "I'm A Full Caster And A Tank (And You're Not)".

Nah, I think a well prepared Cleric trumps a Druid. After all, the errata has taken a lot away from Druids.

They no longer get the Con of the shape they assume. They Lose all Item Bonuses in WildShape now. (Meaning he may have lost a significant amount of +Stat Pts - and subsequent bonuses - during that shift).

All Durkon needs is a Divine Power and a Thor's Might and he's much beefier than any Druid Shape. In fact, he'd have a Fighter's BAB, +2 HP/Level, +10 Strength (+6 Enhance, +4 Size), 10' Reach, Large Sized Damage, and DR 10 / Evil.

I think Cleric wins.

[okpokalypse]

Who thinks Durkon is gonna loose?

BtW, Dwarfs do get a bonus against Giants. Gnome Druids in Dire Bear form aren't Giants.

But Durkon doesn't need that bonus.
Durkon'll will win because he's a PC. Because Durkon loosing wouldn't be funny. Because Leaky is outnumbered (even if V is out I wouldn't discount Julia completely). Because Kitty isn't there and is a non-negligable part of Leaky's fighting strength. Because Leaky is badly hurt, depleted in spells, and short a staff, while Durkon is fresh. Because at level 13 I think Clerics are at least as strong as Druids, if Durkon is also level 13 then Harm isn't even one of his best spells (he could easily have Destruction prepared, make your fort save and still take 10d6 damage, and you really don't want to fail...). Because while we don't know what Durkon's domains are Strength is a good bet and Thor's Might + Strength Domain stacks for a +21 to Strength for one round at level 13 plus the other benefits of Righteous Might.

Well put.

I think a nice Blade Barrier could likely drop the Druid after all the Damage he's already taken. Level d6 Slashing - and I don't think he's got DR ;)

[Daedrous Avari]

LETS AGO and find out.

[sakusha]

3) Leaky no longer has to outcast Durkon. Initiate a grapple check, and crush away is a remarkably effective strategy when youhave a base Strength of 31 and size Large.

One spell: Freedom of Movement.

Speaking of which, Shifters with wilding clasps own.

Shifters were taken out of 3.5D&D if memory serves. They were in Masters of the Wild and I haven't seen them in Complete Divine and I know it's not a Core prestige class.

However ... there is of course the equally broken Nature's Warrior and Master of Many Forms (I think? The one that after 3-4 levels makes you immune to crits...)

One really bizzarre option would be for Leeky to have taken the Druid Levels out of the PHB2 which are for those druids that love wildshape-combat. They can't cast while in wildshape form no matter what (yes, even if they took Natural Spell), but get uber stat bonus while in their forms plus the normal wildshape rules.

And what on earth is NWN?

[KeiranHalcyon]

NWN = Neverwinter Nights.

You know what annoys me more than "w00t, n-th page"? "I'm sorry if this was mentioned already in the first k pages (which I didn't read), but Q", where Q is some prediction/observation that has been mentioned at least once every other page in the thread, often on the very page being posted to.[/rant]

But anyway, I think that the Giant, possessing a gamer mentality himself, was well on top of the "how did control weather do THAT?" issue without reading the forums, and had the resolution preplanned accordingly. The resolution was borderline predictable, but then, it's not the resolution itself that was funny, it was the delivery. "BOOYAH!" The jab at the inevitable controversy was the icing on the cake.

[Shea Landford]

He and Ye and Me be having a talk about how awesome of a comic that was!

[Werebear]

Well, I've been folloing OoTS for a long time... but I just HAD to join here after seeing this one.

This comic is one of the most amazing out there... it's funny, and these stick people sometimes have more expression than a 'realistic' one. The expressions on 337 - (the episode with the "25 words per scroll") as well as the writing... fantastic.

Anyways, well, thanks. :)

[innovan]

>He speaks scottish.

"Bonnie Scotland I Adore Thee"

(Singular pronoun, only one country is loved)

http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_bonnie.htm

"Cam' ye by Athol?"

Which uses both ye and thee correctly.

"Follow thee, follow thee, wha wadna follow thee?"
(Singular pronoun, only one Prince Charlie)

http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_atholl.htm

[charik]

Sorry, I didnt read the past 12 pages so I'm sorry if this was already brought up...

spoiler:
Maybe Durkon will do that thing where he grows uber large.

Yes, yes it was.

Why do people want to be heard without bothering to listen? :'(

[Nightfall]

Oh...my...Goddess! That was SO funny! I'm still laughing! :D

My favorite part:

"An' incident'lly, him 'n ye 'n me will be havin' a conversation when this be over aboot wha is an' wha is not proper behavior fer a young lady o' yer age. Do I make myself clear?"

".....Yes, sir."

Giant, can Durkon come over to MY house when he's done with Julia? Pleeeease??

[the_tick_rules]

well if durkon had time to buff himself before battle things would be much more even. But remember V and Julia are around, so the druid potentially has a 3 on 1. Are we sure it's a dire bear and not a regular bear? Durkon is pretty small.

[JoseB]

Cam' ye by Athol?

Which includes the lyric "Follow thee, follow thee, wha wadna follow thee?"

(Singular pronoun, only one Prince Charlie)

http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_atholl.htm

Although in the title and the first stanza of that song "ye" seems to be rather clearly used with the meaning of "you" (singular):

"Cam' ye by Athol, lad wi' the philabeg,
Down by the Tummel, or banks of the Garry?
Saw ye the lads, wi' their bonnets an' white cockades,
Leaving their mountains to follow Prince Charlie."

There is only one "lad" mentioned in the first line, which is addressed to by means of "ye" (according to the webpage, "philabeg" means "a small kilt", btw).

So I would say that "ye" is acceptable as singular "you" in Scots dialect, according to that song you showed as an example, at least.

[Spit_Dog]

If she had more levels in the Rouge from homebrew forums, this might not have happened.

Actually I suspect Julia has enough levels already in "Rouge"..."Rogue" on the other hand is entirely up to speculation.

[innovan]

Although in the title and the first stanza of that song "ye" seems to be rather clearly used with the meaning of "you" (singular):

I disagree. To me the plural "ye" that he's talking to are us, the audience, the listeners to the song, asking if we've seen the lads wearing white white cockades in these many different locations.

The same "ye" spoken to in the song's title, ""Cam' ye by Athol?"" The same use as in "Come All Ye Faithful".

[Drerek]

I just love that Thor's little celestial peon is holding a copy of the Player's Handbook. I'm such a rules lawyer, but I love what the Giant did with that spell. Darn trees!

[Ironers]

I like the scene where they are climbing down the ladder and Julia's hand is just coming down from the top of the panel, apparantly to keep her skirt from hanging loose, like she's expecting Durkon to do something unlawful and sneak a peek.

It's the little details like this that keeps drawing me back. That and Belkar stabbiness, he's so stabby.

[Aliquid]

I like the scene where they are climbing down the ladder and Julia's hand is just coming down from the top of the panel, apparantly to keep her skirt from hanging loose, like she's expecting Durkon to do something unlawful and sneak a peek.

I interpreted it a bit different.
I thought she was holding her skirt, because she was scared Durkon would get mad at her if she didn't. Especially after he told her off about "proper behavior for a young lady o' yer age"

[theKOT]

I interpreted it a bit different.
I thought she was holding her skirt, because she was scared Durkon would get mad at her if she didn't. Especially after he told her off about "proper behavior for a young lady o' yer age"

I didn't notice that at first, but I definitely think your explaination makes more sense.

Or her hand could just be their for no reason. Meh.

[Solmage]

Give it up for the D-Man!

Gimme a D! D!

Gimme a U! U!

Gimme an R! R!

Gimme a K! K!

Gimme an O! O!

Gimme an N! N!

Whaddya ya spell?

LUNCH!

[chibibar]

Durkon is bad at math... so he might think he lost when actually he really won.

It would be interesting.... Durkon does have good ac and CAN fight pretty well when need be. Also Durkon is probably full up on heal spells.

[yuccadude]

I don't know, the druid wildshape kinda lookds like a feral sloth to me, slothy, but cool

[Krytha]

I hope Julia is well past cantrips...

[KeiranHalcyon]

I was hoping this wouldn't be necessary, but apparently I was wrong.

It is commonly accepted in America, whether correctly or incorrectly, that "you" is pronounced "ye" in Scottish (or the Scottish accent of English; I'm not sure which description is proper). It is also common stereotype that Dwarves speak with Scottish, or at least faux-Scottish, accents (perpetuated no doubt by the portrayal of Gimli in the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings films). In Durkon's case, his pronunciation of "your" ("yer"), his dialogue with Leeky (more "ye"s and "yer"s), and countless other examples of his speech support that what he actually said, sans accent, was "him and you and me," and that he was not, in fact, attempting to use "ye" in any semblance of a grammatically correct fashion.

~blinks, shakes head~ Oh, sorry, I think I channeled V there for a moment. ;)

[Vargtass]

I hope Julia is well past cantrips...

I see no reason why she should not be. She is (was) in the same class (approximately) as Pompey, who holds his place in the Liniear Guild. There is no reason Julia could not be quite a capable wizard in her own right.

[taraxia]

Actually "YE" is not prounced with a hard "Y" sound in period. The "Y" was a printer's adaptation of the letter "thorn" which was a soft TH sound as in "THIS". 'Ye' as is seen on old coffee shoppes would have, in period, been prounounced as "THE OLD COFFEE SHOP". Pronounciation of YE with a hard Y instead of soft TH is another modern idiot-ism (like thunder travels 1 mile per minute) that seems to constantly be re invoked.
Ye has no plaural or singular form or gender, it was and is used as we use the THE today just spelled strangely.

Not trying to be a know it all. Just trying to keep the dissemination of false information to a minimum.

That's completely true of "ye" when it means "the". It's completely untrue of "ye" when it's the archaic nominative case of the second-person plural pronoun in Early Modern English (that is, originally "you" corresponded to "me" and "ye" corresponded to "I"). The fact that the two get confused nowadays does not negate the existence of "ye" meaning "you". In fact, that usage was rather more common than the written form of "the" as "ye" with the thorn replaced by Y, which is why it was such a natural misunderstanding to assume "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe" was referring to something like "Your Old Magic Shop".

Durkon's using "ye" here is completely grammatically correct. It's confusing, since you'd think "ye" would be the analogue of "me" and "I" the analogue of "you", but it's the opposite. "I hate you", and "Ye hate me".

Moreover, it's the formal plural, which was in wide use by the time English sounded anything like modern English -- yes, Julia is one person, but Durkon is nothing if not a proper gentleman when speaking to a stranger, especially if that stranger is the young, unmarried sister of his best friend.

Ironically, it's the "him" and the "me" that are ungrammatical here -- it's the nominative case since it's the subject of the sentence, so it should be "he and ye and I" in proper Early Modern English.

On the other hand, it's important to note that this is a dialect that generalized "ye" to cover the bases of "you" and "ye" while most other English dialects picked "you" to stand for both. Also, a Scotsman who's actually saying "you" may sound like he's saying "ye" anyway, at least to American ears, because of those Scottish vowels.

Not trying to be a know it all. Just trying to prevent the dissemination of false information. Especially when it's being disseminated by arrogant know-it-alls who don't seem to know that much.

[taraxia]

It's not "Ye". It's "Thee".

"Ye" is plural. "Thee" is singular.

Durkon should have said, "Him and thee and me".

Unless he starts taking a fancy after Julia. In which case he can start using the more intimate "thou".

And if he asks "Thou God" only one shows up. But "Ye Gods", he gets trampled by the crowd, since that's the plural pronoun.

*deep sigh*

No. The usage of "ye" and "you" as formal versions of "thee" and "thou" dates back to the Norman Conquest. What linguists call the T-V split was firmly entrenched in English by the time it took the form of Modern English. If what the person is speaking sounds *anything like* recognizable English to your ear -- anything after Chaucer's time, like, say, Shakespeare -- then the people who spoke it used "ye" and "you" to address people formally and "thou" and "thee" to address intimate friends. The reason the King James Bible always uses "thou" is that this was a *conscious affectation* when it was written -- the original Hebrew and Greek texts from which the Bible was translated had a very clear distinction between singular and plural second-person pronouns, and the KJV translators wanted to keep that distinction in the text. It's the same reason Ernest Hemingway used "thou" in the translated Spanish in For Whom the Bell Tolls.

Furthermore, "thou" and "thee" are not a different pronoun. They are the *same* pronoun -- one is the nominative case (thou) and one is the objective case (thee). Neither one is more or less formal than the other -- they are *equally* intimate, and which one you use depends on whether it's the subject or object of the sentence. "Thou lovest me", but "I love thee". See? Just like the Spanish "tú" and "te".

Finally, while the fact that it's different from "thou" and "thee" and "I" and "me" confuses people, "ye" is actually the nominative case in Early Modern English and "you" is the objective case. "Ye love me" but "I love you". I'm guessing the Giant was mistaken about this too, since he wanted Durkon to be using the ungrammatical objective case in the subject to go with "him and me" (which is a common nonstandard usage that many people use -- "Me and my brother are going now"). Even so, I'm just pointing that out in case people harp on that too.

[taraxia]

I disagree. To me the plural "ye" that he's talking to are us, the audience, the listeners to the song, asking if we've seen the lads wearing white white cockades in these many different locations.

The same "ye" spoken to in the song's title, ""Cam' ye by Athol?"" The same use as in "Come All Ye Faithful".

Sorry, doesn't fly. Did you actually *read* the song's first line?

"Cam' ye by Athol, lad with the philabeg/
Doon frae the Tummel or banks o' the Garry". There's no hidden clause reading "and did you see the" in there. "Came you by Athol, lad with the philabeg, down from the Tummel or banks of the Garry?" is what it's asking, and the person being addressed is clearly the lad with the philabeg. There's no two ways about it -- this is a singular addressee being addressed with the pronoun "ye".

Which is unsurprising, because *we* address singular individuals with the pronoun "ye" *all the time*. You do it every time you say "Can I help you?" to one guy standing by himself. It's just that we've generalized "ye" and "you" to be the same word. To a Middle English speaker, we'd all sound a bit like Thog, as though we were constantly saying "Me want to go to the store" or "Me am hungry". The only difference between the Scots dialect and most dialects here is that it picked a different case to generalize (or it picked the same case but pronounces it funny, take your pick).

Interestingly, this song actually illustrates the T-V split very well. The person being addressed in the song is a stranger, being desperately inquired for news about the war (Bonnie Prince Charlie's rebellion), and then shifts to addressing Prince Charlie directly -- dropping his title and simply calling him "Charlie" -- in a plaintive, intimate cry of love and devotion ("Who wouldna' follow thee?").

It's interesting to note, though, that later versions of this song do, in fact, replace the "thee" with a "ye" as "thou/thee" passes out of use in English as time goes on. There's nothing grammatically bad about unilaterally replacing "thou" with "ye" at all, unless you think nearly every English speaker in the world is speaking incorrectly.

[Durin]

Scottish is not a language it's an accent english speaking scotts like mesef have! Scottsmen speak Gaelic a celtic language that we spoke before we even knew what america was.

Unfortunately less than 60% of the population speaks it anymore and it's more commonly heard in the highlands.

P.S. It's good to be back