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  1. - Top - End - #1111
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by LightningStrike View Post
    Hello! As someone starting out in D&D itself (though I've been reading around it for the part couple of years), I've been using this thread to guide the build of my paladin to-be-sorcadin, Brigid, as my first character. (Yes, I know. I like to throw myself in at the deep end with these things.) It has been immensely helpful; thank you to Gastronomie for creating it! However, I now have a couple of questions and so have emerged from my lurking state to assume my true accounted form! To the points, then:

    - Reading through the first few pages of the thread, the consensus for the main trade-off between Paladin 2-3/Sorcerer 17-18 and Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 seems to be access to Level 8 and 9 Sorcerer spells (Wish) vs. Extra Attack and Aura of Protection; of the two, I currently intend to go for the former (Phoenix Sorcerer is pretty anti-synergistic with Aura of Protection...). Looking through my Player's Handbook, though, seems to suggest to my eyes that this limitation shouldn't exist. From the multiclassing spell slot table, a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 would reach a spell level of 17, giving them access to a Level 8 and a Level 9 spell slot. Meanwhile, the Sorcerer's 'Spellcasting' section reads that 'when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be a level for which you have spell slots'. Though one isn't learning new spells by that point, I'm not sure why it wouldn't be possible to learn a redundant lower-level spell beforehand and then exchange it for a desired 8th or 9th Level spell upon reaching the multiclass spell level to give you a spell slot for it. Assuming that I, somebody with all of a few weeks of D&D experience, haven't made a major breakthrough in sorcadin builds missed by countless experienced players, could somebody explain to me why this doesn't work?

    - How do people tend to roleplay the need for a free hand to use material components? I understand how this works mechanically - drop weapon for free, use material component as part of spellcasting action/bonus action, pick up weapon again as item interaction - but constantly dropping your weapon and then leaning over to pick it back up feels a bit silly in-universe, especially in the middle of close combat. For Brigid, I've been thinking of having her attach her warhammer's haft to her gauntlet by a fine chain so it doesn't fall all the way to the ground each time but I'm curious about how other people have done it in the past!
    Welcome to the club!

    I wouldnít worry about what your character will look like at level 20. Itís very rare that a game will go that far and even if it does, you wonít play more than a few sessions at that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain.


    BRING BACK ALIGNMENT LANGUAGES!!!

  2. - Top - End - #1112
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Well, those were some swift responses! Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Spells known is based on class levels not character levels. Itís right there in the multiclass section that you treat your spell casting classes separately when learning spells. To be clear you have higher level slots as MC character so you can upcast spells but you would not have any higher level spells known.
    Checked again... I suppose that this statement's what it ultimately comes down to: 'You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.'. This, I assume, is intended to include 'as if you had the spell slots of a single-classed member of that class' but doesn't explicitly spell it out, especially in the light of class spellcasting rules discussing gaining spells 'of a level for which you have spell slots'. Perhaps could be made a touch clearer!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    As for free hand use a two hander, get warcaster, subtle meta, get gem on weapon from Xanathars, or cast then draw weapon.
    All true! That wasn't really my question, though: I was curious about how people had previously narratively treated what would be constantly dropping and picking up a weapon from a mechanical point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    Welcome to the club!

    I wouldnít worry about what your character will look like at level 20. Itís very rare that a game will go that far and even if it does, you wonít play more than a few sessions at that point.
    Thank you - and don't worry, I appreciate that! I'm mainly asking for reasons of character development that rely on potential access to 9th Level spells (mainly Wish) far more than actual mechanical attainment of that level of spellcasting. Regardless, I seem to have my answer now!
    Last edited by LightningStrike; 2019-11-23 at 03:46 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #1113
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by LightningStrike View Post
    Checked again... I suppose that this statement's what it ultimately comes down to: 'You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.'. This, I assume, is intended to include 'as if you had the spell slots of a single-classed member of that class' but doesn't explicitly spell it out, especially in the light of class spellcasting rules discussing gaining spells 'of a level for which you have spell slots'. Perhaps could be made a touch clearer!
    Yup; Spells Known and Prepared is different to Spell Slots - the former is restricted to single-class, the latter is based on multi-class. The Sorcerer Spells Known is anything you have a Spell Slot for, which means technically you could be something like Paladin 12, take a Sorcerer level, learn 4th Level Sorcerer Spells. For a Sorcerer this actually makes sense; you don't study magic to do more powerful magic, instead you just tap the power you have access to and shape it with your will - if you have access to more power, you could shape more powerful spells.

    The rulings used in Adventure League games are that you pretend you only had the Spell Slots of the single class; it can be argued that this was the intent on the text if not the actual result. Note, WotC being bad at writing rules is a pretty common thing, so it wouldn't be unprecedented - that said, the player base is very defensive about this and you'll find a lot of opposition to actually using the rules as written.



    All true! That wasn't really my question, though: I was curious about how people had previously narratively treated what would be constantly dropping and picking up a weapon from a mechanical point of view.
    You can use one free hand for both material and somatic components. I am guessing you are looking at the situation where you have a shield and weapon?

    Once again, WotC have some issues with how they handle shields in the text; it is both an armour (+2 AC) and something you wield (+2 AC); by the text you would get a bonus for doing both. Again, AL rulings and the player base will oppose this and go by the intent rather than the text.

    Regardless, it never says you are always wielding a shield or carrying it, so there is technically nothing stopping you from not doing so, which would free up your hand. This is the same as no longer wielding a 2H Greatsword or carrying a 1H Warhammer - by letting go with that hand. The shield would stay roughly where it was because it is strapped on (it takes an action to remove it), although you would lose the wielding bonus (readied attack could take advantage).

    Of course, you can just drop the 1H weapon, cast, pick back up. There is a potential issue with terrain and readied actions to pick up the weapon, though. Try doing this on a steep slope or while fording a river - see what the DM decides happens to your weapon!
    Last edited by Aimeryan; 2019-11-24 at 08:11 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #1114
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Hello everyone! ♥

    I'm playing my Sorcadin a while now (but I still feel like a new player tbh) and started before the awesome Pala/Sorc/WL combo came out, so I'm still thinking whether to go Pala 2/Sorc 18 or if I should switch to P6/S13/WL1 - but anyway, that's not the main reason I'm writing my first (? i'm such a lurker) post tonight.

    I'm playing a Half-Elf (Draconic / Brass) at level 9 right now with these stats (INT and CHA got boosted through magical items and one good deed granted him a +1 stat too so I pushed WIS to 10)
    STR 13 / DEX 16 / CON 14 / INT 10 / WIS 10 / CHA 18

    My first ASI was War Caster and now we're close to the next level up!
    As you can see, I'm playing a DEX based Sorcadin with a Rapier and a Shield and skipping through the guide again, I'm not quite sure what I should chose next.
    Should I go for +2 DEX, +2 CHA or even Elven Accuracy? This feat seems to get a lot of attention and since I have a Fighter by my side during the fights, we have the possibility of flanking the enemies.

    And how important is Haste for a Sorcadin? (if I would cast haste, could I use (in the next turn) 2 attack actions + GFB/BB + smite and then use quicken for another round? Or would it be 1 attack with GFB/BB then just a normal attack without the cantrip and then a quicken for another attack+cantrip? Basically this would give me the possibility to smite 3 times if I hit and/or have the spell slots.)
    Because if it really works like I think it does, then it would be a lot of dmg in one round? So this couldn't be right ... right?

    I also take any general tips if you have some - to impove my character!

    Any help would be deeply appreciated! Thank you so much in advance!

  5. - Top - End - #1115
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    The nice thing is that sorcadins are able to go many different ways and still be effective. You have a Dex pally using rapier and shield with half plate. I'm guessing 6pal/3sorc and your main role is melee, meaning you use slots for smites and shield spells.

    I am in a similar place with my sorcadin, so we have about the same amount of experience, but I'll try to help.

    The +2 Dex looks like a good option even if it doesn't seem the most fun. Elven accuracy can potentially turn misses into hits, but you have to have advantage already to use it. So ultimately you should have successfully hit without it and are using the third roll to try and get a critical hit. Crit fishing is great for big smites, but can wait for another ASI opportunity when you have more slots to use. While +2 Dex will increase your to hit, initiative and skills, but unfortunately won't improve your AC.

    The +2 Chr looks like a good option if you plan on turning more to the caster/controller role. If you are never going to go up another level of paladin and plan on only going up levels in sorcerer maxing out Chr will help. It increases you DC on spells, your aura of courage and skills. It is even more important if you are considering a hexblade dip, since it will max out your attacking attribute too.

    What else is there for feats? Well, Elven Accuracy, Inspiring Leader and Sentinel are all good with sword and shield, but like the guide says ASI's are better for sorcadins than feats.

    Which way did I go? Well, I got very lucky and found some gauntlets of ogre power. Suddenly my Dex paladin can wear full plate, wield a magic longsword and I don't need to max my Dex anymore. On my next ASI I will take +2 Chr and max it at 20.

    As to Haste spell, all the obvious stuff like +2 AC, advantage on Dex saves, and the extra attack make it awesome. I think because sorcadins don't get three and four attacks like fighters in the higher tiers some people want to use it for extra output. I chose Shadow Blade (before I found my gauntlets) for the extra damage, advantage in dim light and finesse. I am unsure if I will keep it or switch to haste or something else.
    Skill monkeys, away!

  6. - Top - End - #1116
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by saucerhead View Post
    The nice thing is that sorcadins are able to go many different ways and still be effective. You have a Dex pally using rapier and shield with half plate. I'm guessing 6pal/3sorc and your main role is melee, meaning you use slots for smites and shield spells.

    I am in a similar place with my sorcadin, so we have about the same amount of experience, but I'll try to help.

    The +2 Dex looks like a good option even if it doesn't seem the most fun. Elven accuracy can potentially turn misses into hits, but you have to have advantage already to use it. So ultimately you should have successfully hit without it and are using the third roll to try and get a critical hit. Crit fishing is great for big smites, but can wait for another ASI opportunity when you have more slots to use. While +2 Dex will increase your to hit, initiative and skills, but unfortunately won't improve your AC.

    The +2 Chr looks like a good option if you plan on turning more to the caster/controller role. If you are never going to go up another level of paladin and plan on only going up levels in sorcerer maxing out Chr will help. It increases you DC on spells, your aura of courage and skills. It is even more important if you are considering a hexblade dip, since it will max out your attacking attribute too.

    What else is there for feats? Well, Elven Accuracy, Inspiring Leader and Sentinel are all good with sword and shield, but like the guide says ASI's are better for sorcadins than feats.

    Which way did I go? Well, I got very lucky and found some gauntlets of ogre power. Suddenly my Dex paladin can wear full plate, wield a magic longsword and I don't need to max my Dex anymore. On my next ASI I will take +2 Chr and max it at 20.

    As to Haste spell, all the obvious stuff like +2 AC, advantage on Dex saves, and the extra attack make it awesome. I think because sorcadins don't get three and four attacks like fighters in the higher tiers some people want to use it for extra output. I chose Shadow Blade (before I found my gauntlets) for the extra damage, advantage in dim light and finesse. I am unsure if I will keep it or switch to haste or something else.
    Thank you so much for your reply and help! x)

    I do plan to also do a bit of casting /controlling and our campaign is a bit social heavy so I think ... I'll take the 20 CHA. After long loooong consideration. So the next ASI will be Dex 18. And then, we'll see. Maybe something will happen in the campaign which forces my OC to do something different than I had in mind :, )

    Damn you're lucky indeed! Gauntles of Ogre are really a nice addition! Although I think these would go straight to our fighter!

    Thank you so much again for taking your time ♥

  7. - Top - End - #1117
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Hello everyone.

    I'm about to start a campaign using point-buy starting around level 3. How would you guys go about building a sorcadin focused on tanking/dpr?

    I was thinking of going half-elf vengeance paladin 6/divine soul 13/hexblade 1, but I'm unsure whether the hexblade dip is worth it. The main draw is elven accuracy, SADness and expanded crits but the superior spellcasting progression and strength boosting items might make the dip unnecessary.

  8. - Top - End - #1118
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Blasphemous View Post
    Hello everyone.

    I'm about to start a campaign using point-buy starting around level 3. How would you guys go about building a sorcadin focused on tanking/dpr?

    I was thinking of going half-elf vengeance paladin 6/divine soul 13/hexblade 1, but I'm unsure whether the hexblade dip is worth it. The main draw is elven accuracy, SADness and expanded crits but the superior spellcasting progression and strength boosting items might make the dip unnecessary.
    Ask the DM about Gauntlets of Ogre Power - if you can buy these (only uncommon, only several hundred gold pieces), obtain these as loot (again, only uncommon), quest for them, or acquire in some other fashion, then the Hexblade dip is largely wasted. Adventure League games guarantee these easily, so the Hexblade dip tends to not be encouraged on these forums. Otherwise, the dip is amazing for allowing your ASIs/Feats to go elsewhere.

  9. - Top - End - #1119
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Hello. Great guide, I have been following it for a long time. I just recently played a Dex Sorcadin in my home game from levels 1-13 and I wanted to share my experiences on the section of the guide that is missing.

    I have loved the Gish since 3.5 and have experience with Sorcadins and played a Paladin 2 / Sorceror X on two separate occasions. Once from Level 3-8 and again from level 5-11. Those both very much felt more caster oriented and while fights where you are fully committed are just totally spectacular, I felt a little underpowered in the random fights where you donít want to expend any resources. I wanted to try a build that was heavy on the Paladin side of things to establish a solid base to jump off of and I could not be more pleased. I have also played a straight classed Paladin all the way to level 10, and this build ended up being more tanky. Iíll do a level by level breakdown of my build and notes along the way.

    My concept was to take advantage of Elven Accuracy and Vow of Enmity to gain triple advantage on attack rolls and fish for crits to stretch my smites. Being Dex-Based means taking advantage of stealth skills and having a higher initiative, and instead of an attack cantrip you can carry a Longbow as your ranged option, making you a decent Archer when paired with Vengeanceís Hunterís Mark.

    I went with Mordekainenís Eladrin for a Race, and my point-buy stats worked out to be Str: 13, Dex: 17(+2 Elf,) Con: 12, Int: 8, Wis: 8, Cha: 16.

    Level 1 - Paladin. You start your Lay On Hands progression but other than that are a very plain Ranged/Melee switch hitter. Sell your chainmail for some studded leather and a longbow. Your attack routine is +5 1D8+3 with either your Bow or Rapier. Save your Lay On Hands for 1HP party member revivals. AC with Studded Leather and a shield is a respectable 17.

    Level 2 - Paladin. Fighting Style, Spells, Divine Smite. For your Fighting Style I highly recommend Defense over anything else. 18AC. Detect Magic, Bless, Shield of Faith, all solid options here. My tactics at this level were mostly to cast Shield of Faith to push my AC to 20 and absorb hits for the party. You only have two spell slots here so I only ended up smiting in boss fights.

    Level 3 - Paladin. VENGEANCE. Vow of Enmity, Hunterís Mark and Bane always prepared. Your bonus actions start to become precious here, but typically every fight I would use the Vow, then next turn Hunterís Mark with my bonus action. Attack routine becomes +5/1D8+3+1D6. The ranger in my party had Hordebreaker, but we were actually pretty similar archers.

    Level 4 - Elven Accuracy. Bump your Dex to 18, increasing all of those goodies. AC is now sitting at 19. Triple advantage is amazing and you are great at hitting things. Your attack routine is now +6/1D8+4+1D6. Three spell slots so you can be a bit more liberal with your 2D8 smites. MEAN crits, for me it was happening about once a fight on average.

    Level 5 - Extra attack. This level I also got myself a +1 Rapier, Bow, and Studded Leather. You also get second level spells. Find Steed, Aid, Hold Person, Misty Step, all great spells. I get a lot of mileage out of Find Steed, and letting your party auto-crit with Hold Person is a tried and true tactic. 20AC, attack routine is +7/1D8+5+1D6 twice,

    Level 6 - Aura of Protection. +3 to saves for the whole party, honestly one of the best abilities in the game. Worth delaying your Sorcerer levels for.

    Level 7 - Sorcerer. I went Divine Soul for Favored by the Gods (It will save your butt) and the expanded spell selection. Dragon would also have been good but I had the +1 Studded Leather anyway and your Paladin base is so solid you donít really miss the hitpoints. For cantrips I took Minor Illusion, Toll The Dead just in case I didnít want to switch to my bow, Booming Blade for later quickening shenanigans, and Friends. First level spells I grabbed Shield and Absorb Elements, and now we have crazy defensive options. Compared to a regular Paladin we also have on demand +5 to AC, Half Elemental Damage, and +2D4 to a failed save. Crazy good tankiness, all while still being able to do triple advantage crit fishing smites.

    Level 8 - Sorcerer. Font of Magic so you can convert your two little baby sorcery points into an extra level 1 slot. But this is where the build got really interesting for me. You get a third level slot with no third level known spells, so I felt liberated to either upcast my Hunterís Mark to 8 Hours, or to use it for high-quality fuel we were promised. When I played the Paladin 2 / Sor X build I always felt like my best slots were better spent on actual spells unless I was going Nova, so this was a delightful breath of fresh air.

    Level 9 - Sorcerer. If we had stayed Vengeance we would have the haste spell, but here we are with our Sorcery points. You get second level spells known, so my spells known were Shield, Absorb Elements, Blindness/Deafness, and Mirror Image. I took quicken and twin for my metamagic. You can get a Pseudo-third attack for Novaing by quickening a BB, but I used it for layering on defenses with Mirror Image (I felt like a tanking GOD) or casting Blindness on an enemy since itís concentration-free.

    Level 10 - Sorcerer. Fourth level spell slot. Three Level 3 slots, this level I basically just smited everything and everyone forever. Like a bright glowing Oprah of smiting vengeance. Blindness/Deafness can also be upcast to target multiple creatures. You also get your ASI. I really wanted Warcaster, but instead bumped my dexterity since you add it to so many things.

    Level 11 - Sorcerer. You learn level 3 Spells! Fireball! Revivify! Spirit Guardians! Haste! So many good options. I still love my Hunterís Mark so I didnít cast haste much for my ďmelee modeĒ, but got a lot of mileage out of Spirit Guardians and walking into Hordes. Spell scales well, my dudes. And every spell caster should throw at least one fireball in my opinion. The party wizard was bending reality at this point, but I still felt very relevant and like a true caster hybrid. Great melee, great tankiness, huge spike damage, respectable AOE. This was the point where I felt like a true God of the battlefield. Our poor ranger started to hate me.

    Level 12 - Sorcerer. Hereís your fifth level spell slot. You canít Smite with it, but you can upcast all your nasty spells into it. Mostly Spirit Guardians. A vengeance Paladin would be sharing haste to his Pegasus and flying all over the place, but we are tankier and more versatile while getting to be more liberal with our spell slots for smites. When I was the Paladin 2 / Sor 9, I really just casted God Wizard spells with the occasional BB Smite. It was alright, but it wasnít THIS.

    Level 13 - Where we ended our campaign. I learned some 4th level spells. I decided to buff my tankiness more and took Death Ward and Polymorph with the intention of going down to 1HP and then Giant Apeing myself (what a verb) and being unkillable, but I never needed to.

    Anyway, thatís it. Thanks for reading, please feel free to check for legality here and see if my table missed anything. My favorite part of this build is it was AMAZINGLY FUN AT EVERY LEVEL unlike some other multiclasses I have done and I would highly recommend it to anyone. Having the strong melee base shored up my least favorite part of the Sorcerer, the limited spell selection, and oh man that high-grade fuel was delicious.

  10. - Top - End - #1120
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    You used vow of enmity every fight. Were you in one of those stupid campaigns with one fight per day?

  11. - Top - End - #1121
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    You used vow of enmity every fight. Were you in one of those stupid campaigns with one fight per day?
    It refreshes on a short rest. Our wizard was Tiny Hut obsessed so anytime we got beat up we'd hut up and take a nap. I'd say average for our game was 3-5 encounters per long rest. Not as many as recommended, but it always felt dramatic and dangerous.

    Any feedback other than my game is stupid? 😊

  12. - Top - End - #1122
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Post Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Great Guide. I'd like to point out though that Smites are bonus actions that add power to the attack action (when you swing your sword). Quicken spell only turns spells into bonus actions so you cannot quicken Hold Person and then Smite. Great idea, but is against the mechanic rules of 5e.

  13. - Top - End - #1123
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Meash99 View Post
    Great Guide. I'd like to point out though that Smites are bonus actions that add power to the attack action (when you swing your sword). Quicken spell only turns spells into bonus actions so you cannot quicken Hold Person and then Smite. Great idea, but is against the mechanic rules of 5e.
    I was using the Paladins key class feature, Divine Smite, not smite spells. I'll include the description of the class feature.


    Divine Smite
    Starting at 2nd Level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon Attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each Spell Level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an Undead or a fiend.

    So you would quicken hold person with your bonus action, and then attack with your action. If you hit, then you can choose to use a spell slot to Divine Smite the enemy, which are doubled with the auto crits.

  14. - Top - End - #1124
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I love this guide.

    I know it was made before the hexblade was a thing, but isnít this build improved with 1 or 3 levels of hexblade, so you become SAD and never have to worry about boosting STR?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I swear, 1 handed quarterstaves are 5e's spiked chain.


    BRING BACK ALIGNMENT LANGUAGES!!!

  15. - Top - End - #1125
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I had thought of that myself
    but my DM would never allow me to be a paladin warlock unless I had a REALLY good explanation

  16. - Top - End - #1126
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    I love this guide.

    I know it was made before the hexblade was a thing, but isnít this build improved with 1 or 3 levels of hexblade, so you become SAD and never have to worry about boosting STR?
    It's been discussed at length that a Sorlock with no more than three levels of Hexblade is simpler to build and almost as versatile as a Sorcadin. Charisma to weapon damage, Hex, Hexblade Curse, and access to Branding Smite is enough to emulate a Vengeance Paladin; also, the short rest Warlock slots are an excellent tool for fueling metamagic. You'll get easy battlefield control with Eldritch Blast Invocations, and all the ritual spells in the game with Tome Pact. Stopping at three levels of Hexblade means you'll get your 9th-level Sorcerer spells, but likely not until level 20 depending on your priorities.

    The problem of recommending even a single Hexblade level in a Sorcadin build is that it interrupts both your Paladin and Sorcerer progression. A Paladin wants their auras as soon as possible to protect themselves and their party, and a Sorcerer wants their metamagic as soon as possible to give them tight action economy. And because Paladin requires a minimum 13 Strength to multiclass with, many builds will favor pumping Strength anyway.

    The most benefit a Hexblade dip would provide is around levels 16-20, at which point the Sorcadin has almost every class feature they need and just wants to focus on improving Charisma. A balanced build would consider Paladin 6 or 7 / Sorcerer 9 before considering Hexblade 1. A Sorcerer focused build would consider Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 13 before considering Hexblade 1. A campaign will likely be finished before you can consider adding Hexblade to your build.

    But if we're talking a level 20 one-shot? Oh man, is it good.

  17. - Top - End - #1127
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Vin_ View Post
    -snip-
    Awesome post! You convinced me to give Sorcadin a try. I wasn't sure about it because I always thought it would be kind of meh until you get to level 10+, but your post made me realize it would still be fun at each level.

  18. - Top - End - #1128
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    Awesome post! You convinced me to give Sorcadin a try. I wasn't sure about it because I always thought it would be kind of meh until you get to level 10+, but your post made me realize it would still be fun at each level.
    Paladins levels 1 through 6/7 are one of the best low-level builds in the game. And Sorcerer level 1 and 2, while they're rough levels for a Sorlock, interact with 5E D&D multiclassing math in a fun way to make them stronger than it appeals. It's not like Rogue or Battlemaster Fighter where you'll peak early and reach a plateau, or like Valor Bard or Sorlock where you will need quite a few levels before your build comes online. Sorceradin starts strong and stays strong, with your relative weakest levels being Paladin 4 and Sorcerer 2. And even then, those levels aren't exactly weak, they're just B-tier levels on a character where -- without exaggeration -- every other level is A-tier or S-tier. You trade very slightly less raw power in the mid-game compared for a huge amount of power and versatility from then on.

    Let's take a look at what the first 10 levels will look like for you. Unless you rolled like a Greek God and plan to roll DEXadin, I recommend starting out with Paladin. You get a couple extra hit points and, more importantly, heavy armor proficiency. CON/CHA v. CHA/WIS is something of a wash: they're both equally useful. And if you're rolling with a two-handed weapon you should definitely take Resilient: CON anyway. I also recommend staying as a Paladin. The beauty of the build is that even if you never get past level 6, paladin is just an OMG strong class from the word go. Something like Pal 3 / Sorcerer 3 is downright painful to play, even with short workdays; the tricks Sorcerer brings to the table, other than Shield and Absorb Elements, aren't that great until the higher levels anyway. You'll miss having Extra Attack and Aura of Protection much more than being able to have Quickened Booming Blade.

    Paladin:
    Level 1: This is your weakest level and it's still above-average compared to other classes. You get full armor and weapon proficiency (a big deal at low level), a juicy 10 hit points, and Divine Sense and Lay on Hands. Do not discount Lay on Hands, popping people from zero hit points is very difficult to do at low level.
    Level 2: Doozy of a level. You get great spells like Bless, Wrathful Smite, and Protection from Evil and good. You get Smite (not all that useful now, but build-defining later) and a Fighting Style.
    Level 3: This level is a honey of one, if you have a Sacred Oath that gives either good spells or a good Channel Divinity. Or if you're something like Oath of Vengeance or Devotion, both. Even if you picked a weaker oath like Oath of the Crown it's still an extra spell slot, so another extra Bless.
    Level 4: ASI time. Paladins are MAD, so this will help immensely. This is probably your weakest level in terms of power acquisition, but it's a weak level for almost everyone.
    Level 5: Extra attack time! Huge offense increase. And second-level spell slot. Oh, and if you have an Oath with a good spell list like Oath of Vengeance it's even better.
    Level 6: Three additional spell slots would make this level sweet enough on its own, but it comes with Aura of Protection, i.e. probably the best class feature in the game that isn't outright broken like Illusory Reality.
    Level 7: I usually bail out at level 6, but if you're rolling something like Oath of the Ancients or Oath of Conquest it's another amazing level.

    Sorcerer:
    Level 1: This level comes with a number of subtle goodies to make it surprisingly decent (certainly better than Paladin level 4) despite its inauspicious start. 4 cantrips are always really nice to have. If you have a good Sorcerous origin like Divine Soul or even Wild Sorcerer, you have that. But the big benefit of this level is getting access to Absorb Elements and Shield. These are enormous durability increases that turn you from 'tough' to 'all-around toughest build in the game'.
    Level 2: First: Font of Magic is a huger deal for this build than you think. Not at this level (though the extra 1st-level spell slot is nice) but as time goes on. You will burn through sorcery points quickly and because you have paladin levels you will have unused high-level spell slots. You could use them on smites, or you could use them to upcast certain paladin spells, but I like using them for more metamagic, more! The real money is the extra two 3rd-level slots. I like to spend them on Aid.
    Level 3: Metamagic. Need I say more? Well, okay, I'll say a little bit.
    Subtle Spell is just awesome. Not worrying about Counterspell (or having your Counterspell counterspelled in two levels) is worth the price of admission. Being able to cast in challenging environments like, oh, thrown into a Watery Sphere or while hanging onto a dragon is also awesome. And if you're investing into things like But my favorite use, if you're a Divine Soul sorcerer, is combining it with Silence.
    Twin Spell: Another great metamagic effect. Twin Protection from Evil and Good or Sanctuary will make you friends faster than a 30 CHA score. Or even Twin Protection from Evil and Good. If you have a decent save DC, it makes spells like Phantasmal Force that much better.
    Heighten Spell: Again, very good. There are a number of spells you'll be getting that are a total shutdown if you can bypass the first saving throw, like Suggestion or Wrathful Smite. If I had access to an OMG tier magic item like a Staff of the Magi (i.e. I was playing in Adventurer's League) I'd definitely pick this as my second.
    Level 4: It's an ASI level, so you'd think it'd be weak. But there are two subtle quirks of 5E D&D math that make it very good. You get a 4th-level spell slot and a 4th sorcery point. That 4th point makes it so that you can use Quicken Spell twice in a fight without having to spend a bonus action to recharge. This is the level when you'll start being subject to bonus action clog, if you're not already experiencing it, so it's very helpful.

    Past level 10, it only looks better and better. You think being able to drop a Quicken Spell on a Blur is good? Wait until you get Haste or Greater Invisibility. You gain more than enough sorcery points and spell slots to smite like a madman. And sorcerers also get some amazing defensive options like Counterspell and Fly -- and if you're a Divine Soul Sorcerer, Silence and even Death Ward (!) are on the table. But don't fool yourself, Sorceradin is strong from the word 'go' if you balance your levels right.
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2020-02-29 at 08:13 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #1129
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I know the Hexblade splash gets touted a lot around these parts, but what about an Order Domain cleric splash? The MAD is brutal, but possible. Level 1 Variant Human: 16 / 16 / 13 / 11 / 9 / 8, with that CON bumped up to 12 after taking Resilient: CON.

    Of course, the real money of this build comes with Twin Spell. Between stuff like Twinned Healing Word, you'll be handing out boatloads of extra attacks on the cheap.

  20. - Top - End - #1130
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    I know the Hexblade splash gets touted a lot around these parts, but what about an Order Domain cleric splash? The MAD is brutal, but possible. Level 1 Variant Human: 16 / 16 / 13 / 11 / 9 / 8, with that CON bumped up to 12 after taking Resilient: CON.

    Of course, the real money of this build comes with Twin Spell. Between stuff like Twinned Healing Word, you'll be handing out boatloads of extra attacks on the cheap.
    Voice of Authority can only give one additional attack per casting, Twinned Spell would just allow you to choose which of your two allies gets to attack.
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  21. - Top - End - #1131
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by W41Blackr4zr View Post
    I had thought of that myself
    but my DM would never allow me to be a paladin warlock unless I had a REALLY good explanation
    Wouldn't it be as simple as Paladin + Warlock (Pact of the Celestial)?


  22. - Top - End - #1132
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosnoop110 View Post
    Wouldn't it be as simple as Paladin + Warlock (Pact of the Celestial)?
    That's a fringe case. In general, paladins are expected to be good barring few exceptions, while most warlocks are inherently sinister with their dealings, and thus I agree with their DM: There'd had to be a very good reason for such a mix.
    And not all Palalock fans are interested in Celestial Patron. In fact, I've found that most prefer Hexblade or even Fiend, with a fair amount of Archfey as well.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-03-02 at 06:28 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #1133
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    That's a fringe case. In general, paladins are expected to be good barring few exceptions, while most warlocks are inherently sinister with their dealings, and thus I agree with their DM: There'd had to be a very good reason for such a mix.
    And not all Palalock fans are interested in Celestial Patron. In fact, I've found that most prefer Hexblade or even Fiend, with a fair amount of Archfey as well.
    Only one subclass of Paladin has an alignment restriction and it requires Evil.

    Nothing in Warlock requires any alignment.

  24. - Top - End - #1134
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    (1) Any recommended magic items and/or mundane gear lists?

    (2) In my case in particular I'm looking for some recommendations for two uncommon magic items for a Gnome a Sword & Board, Oath of the Ancients, Paladin 7/Sorcerer 1 who spends some time on his Mastiff steed with a lance?

    Thanks,
    Necro
    Last edited by Necrosnoop110; 2020-03-08 at 06:05 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #1135
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosnoop110 View Post
    (1) Any recommended magic items and/or mundane gear lists?

    (2) In my case in particular I'm looking for some recommendations for two uncommon magic items for a Gnome a Sword & Board, Oath of the Ancients, Paladin 7/Sorcerer 1 who spends some time on his Mastiff steed with a lance?

    Thanks,
    Necro
    There's general things that you could benefit from, like a simple +1 Lance, Cloak of Protection or a Pearl of Power to get that extra spell/smite out for the day. In terms of mundane items a military saddle is a must for any mounted character, barding for your Mastiff if available in your game.
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  26. - Top - End - #1136
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Anyone can help me come up with a spell list for a GWM Devotion/Divine Sorcadin? My focus is buffing/healing myself and others and dealing damage with GWM.

  27. - Top - End - #1137

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by svkt28 View Post
    Anyone can help me come up with a spell list for a GWM Devotion/Divine Sorcadin? My focus is buffing/healing myself and others and dealing damage with GWM.
    Sorcerors are tough in that you really need to think out your picks wisely. Have you ever taken a Wizard based gish to 17+? If you have then that would greatly boost your sense of which spells are good. Spells you might not think would be, like feather fall and expeditious retreat, are keepers.

  28. - Top - End - #1138

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    There's general things that you could benefit from, like a simple +1 Lance, Cloak of Protection or a Pearl of Power to get that extra spell/smite out for the day. In terms of mundane items a military saddle is a must for any mounted character, barding for your Mastiff if available in your game.
    Candle of the Deep is handy.

  29. - Top - End - #1139
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by col_impact View Post
    Candle of the Deep is handy.
    It'd certainly be neat to have in a loot pile, but I don't know I'd spend a chosen magic item on it unless maybe in an aquatic campaign, even then there's better items to choose from.
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  30. - Top - End - #1140

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    It'd certainly be neat to have in a loot pile, but I don't know I'd spend a chosen magic item on it unless maybe in an aquatic campaign, even then there's better items to choose from.
    Why is it that people can never see alternate uses for an object?

    In terms of game mechanics what exactly does Candle of the Deep do?

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