Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Corran]

@SpoCkOndOpe:
Let me preface this by saying that I know little about the Hexblade/Sorcerer MC. I have theorycrafted one such build and even got to playtest it in a one-shot some time ago (it was a hexblade1/phoenix14), but I have not gone deep enough to feel confortable to express assertive opinions about it. So, a carefully planned build of a Sorcblade might actually be better than the best sorcadin, or it might not, personally I cannot say for sure at this point. But I feel I know gishes well enough and how they are supposed to be played, and based on this I have spotted several things I disagree with in your recent posts. Things based on which you make comparisons. Let me number a couple and let me give lend you my view on them and on why I disagree with you.

You mentioned (and I will paraphrase, feel free to correct me where you feel I am misquoting you), that extra attack is of not much importance since it is overshadowed by GFB. IMO this is a common mistake, that lots of people make when thinking of sorcadin builds. The value of extra attack for a sorcadin build, is not measured in term of what it offers to your dpr, but in term of what it offers you regarding your nova potential. Exactly like divine smite. These two features is what more than anything else makes the sorcadin good at going nova. Aside from that, extra attack has still some other benefits, like giving you the opportunity to shove or grapple and attack (possibly adding a smite) in the same round, or letting you rock the hold person + smite gimmick, or even in dpr terms when you cannot make good use for whatever reason. But all these are side benefits for sorcadins. The real value is that it unlocks your nova potential, which is afterall one of the main reasons to play a sorcadin in the first place.

Secondly, you sure mention that aura of protection is huge and very good and all that, yet I strongly feel that regardless of what you said, we have a very different valuation of this feature. I wont go into extreme detail as to why I think that NOT getting aura of protection is a mistake (as I have done so in numerous occasions in this forum in the past, though I could probably point you to one of those rants of mine if you want, and assuming the search engine wont disappoint me). I will just say this in regard to that, that I've theorycrafted a very good amount of builds (one of them the aforementioned hexblade1/phoenix sorc X at lower levels, since @clvl15 I had both warcaster and resilient con on it), for which it makes a huge difference if a paladin ally with aura of protection is standing within 10' of them. And I even played one such build (it was a cleric of the arcane domain, albeit a non-optimized one) that relied on the party paladin being there for my character to be functional-effective during combat (spirit guardian and concentration chances), and I learned that the hard way. But leaving allies aside, think of what getting the aura means in term of feats you need to get for your gish, whatever gish that may be. For example, how well do you expect your aforementioned sorcblade to handle a twinned polymorph, or even worse, a twinned haste, while you aim for nothing other than warcaster? And if you are starting as a sorcerer for the CON save proficiency (which seems mandatory if you are not planning to take both warcaster and resilient con), what happens to your wisdom save? That's a hell of a weak spot right there that IMO an optimized character cannot afford.

There are many other things you said in your post that I don't agree with, but instead of tackling every single bit, let me offer you my take on what character optimization is (and this will be more of a general talk). Because saying something like, I prefer 2 extra spell levels and the slots they come with, has very little meaning if you don't go deeper and explain what value you gain out of those resources. And I explain. IMO, character optimization has very little to do with piling things up (be it spell slots, features, or what have you). Very roughly, and this is my take on it, character optimization starts by selecting a couple of suitable 'roles' you expect your character to cover from exceptionally to reasonably well during combat. Once you have that down, you then start to search for the resources that will let you be good at the things you want to do, analyzing how they combine with one another, trying to get rid of unnecessary overlap as resources are always limited and come at a price (and that price is selecting them instead of something else), all while making a first rough plan of what your various strategies will be during different combat encounters. Then you start trying to figure out the level progression, trying to make sure the power curve is reasonably smooth across the levels of play (meaning no sudden big power jumps, meaning not having to wait till level X for the build to come online). And once you have all these things down, then comes the most crucial part. That is to check if your various strategies can comply and be fitted into the action economy. That means that after you establish a few strategies, you then examine them one at a time and you ask yourself: ''What am I doing during turn 1, turn 2, etc (though the couple first turns are usually of importance, then it's just rinse and repeat)? Is that good enough? Are there any obvious and exploitable weak points in the way I aim to use my resources (mostly reffering to opportunity cost and risk taken, with risk translating mostly to concentration as far as gishes are concerned)? Can I do anything to mitigate this weakness, and if not, do I get rid of this idea of a strategy or do I keep it because it has some situational value?''. And last but not least, you playtest it, and you cross your fingers to not have to go back to the drawing board for what you put effort into piecing all this together. If you find this talk to be very general, and you are interested in becoming more familiar with what I just described, I could PM you a couple of old posts where part of this process is demonstrated. So, getting 8th and 9th level spell slots tells me very little of what value that presents a character you want to call a gish. Meaning their importance varies from 'I use the slots to create sp' to 'I use spell X along with that metamagic Y to achieve Z' (along with the opportunity cost this whole action comes inherent with) Then I compare it to what I would give up. But in all honesty this situation in the case I am discussing (ie sorcadin), will never come up if only you start by trying to identify the roles your PC to cover, but I digress.

One last thing. You mention that you think hexblade1/sorcererX is the strongest gish build. From what I had gathered when I was planning the hexblade1/phoenix sorc X build I mentioned a couple of times above, I was not really impressed by it. Granted, I may have not done a good optimization job with it, as I started optimizing it only after I gave it a bit of flavor that I really wanted to give it, so that may have put things in the wrong track to start with. Or it might have just been the origin, and perhaps other sorcerer origins might work a lot better than the one I tried. If you are interested in having a look at it and give me some advice on it, I would be more than happy to search for that old thread and PM it to you, or even start a new thread where other people could also comment and present some input (also it wouldn't feel right to highjack Gastronomie's guide and start talking here exclusively about sorcblades). Not just about that specific build I would like to revisit (after a long time) and get opinions on it, but it could be a more general thread about hexblades/sorcerers MC. Or in other words, you could show me some of the pros of the multiclass, since as I said I am not very familiar with it. Or alternatively, you could point me to a good thread discussing this multiclass, if you know of one.

[Backlash3906]

Any thoughts following the introduction of (Hill) Giant Soul and the option for Shillelagh? Or would that revision wait until it makes it beyond the realm of UA?

[Deathtongue]

Modern gishes need extra attack. This is not negotiable. GFB and BB do not cut the mustard anymore.

1.) GFB and BB starts to fall behind once magical items get introduced into games. BB's damage with a 1d8 weapon at level 16 is slightly better (4d8+5, average 23) versus extra attack (2d8+10, average 19). Throw in a +1 Weapon and a Belt of Fire Giant Strength and you instead have GFB's average 4d8+8, average 26 versus extra attack of 2d8+16, average 27.

2.) Shadow Blade is now a thing. It's one of the best passive DPR adders. Haste + GFB/BB gives you 5d8+10. Shadow Blade at level 5 with Extra Attack gives you 8d8+10. That's a whopping 13.5 DPR difference. Or 18 DPR difference if we're comparing level 11 to 16.

[hwem]

For a S&B build, is Crown with Draconic or Divine Soul generally considered as the best combination for a Pal6/Sorc14? Amazing guide...

[Nero200]

Considering that with XGtE coming out, the UA Sorc Origins don't get bonus spells anymore, would you alter the rating of those down?

[jacob902uhhs]

For a S&B build, is Crown with Draconic or Divine Soul generally considered as the best combination for a Pal6/Sorc14? Amazing guide...

Draconic 1 gives more HP
Draconic 6 gives CHA to DMG (if it matches your dragon type)
Draconic 6 also gives 1 sorc point for resistance to that DMG.
Draconic 14 gives wings

Divine Soul 1 gives one more spell (always a cleric spell), and access to all cleric spells.
Divine Soul 1 also gives 2d4 to a failed save or attack once a day. (Pretty nice to use it after you know you've failed a save.)
Divine Soul 6 gives you the ability to reroll healing dice for 1 sorc point (A trap, only usable on Healing word, Cure Wounds, and the mass versions.)
Divine Soul 14 gives wings

Looking at the way it lays out, you have to weigh the decision, "Do I want access to Cleric spells, or do I want more HP and limited damage increase?"
For me, I think the versatility gained from the cleric spell list is worth the trade. Unless I would create a PHB +1 character, I would go Draconic.
Losing out on the SCAG cantrips is pretty rough, seeing as how that's how I get my forth attack in at later levels.

Now that we are in discussion of the multiclass combinations, I'm more a fan of Vengeance. You pick up misty step and hold person for paladin 2nd level spells.
This basically frees up your sorcerer 2nd level spells for whatever floats your boat, Suggestion, Earthbind, or forgoing Sorcerer second levels spells.
And lets not for get the easy advantage from channel divinity.

[hwem]

Draconic 1 gives more HP
Draconic 6 gives CHA to DMG (if it matches your dragon type)
Draconic 6 also gives 1 sorc point for resistance to that DMG.
Draconic 14 gives wings

Divine Soul 1 gives one more spell (always a cleric spell), and access to all cleric spells.
Divine Soul 1 also gives 2d4 to a failed save or attack once a day. (Pretty nice to use it after you know you've failed a save.)
Divine Soul 6 gives you the ability to reroll healing dice for 1 sorc point (A trap, only usable on Healing word, Cure Wounds, and the mass versions.)
Divine Soul 14 gives wings

Looking at the way it lays out, you have to weigh the decision, "Do I want access to Cleric spells, or do I want more HP and limited damage increase?"
For me, I think the versatility gained from the cleric spell list is worth the trade. Unless I would create a PHB +1 character, I would go Draconic.
Losing out on the SCAG cantrips is pretty rough, seeing as how that's how I get my forth attack in at later levels.

Now that we are in discussion of the multiclass combinations, I'm more a fan of Vengeance. You pick up misty step and hold person for paladin 2nd level spells.
This basically frees up your sorcerer 2nd level spells for whatever floats your boat, Suggestion, Earthbind, or forgoing Sorcerer second levels spells.
And lets not for get the easy advantage from channel divinity.

Thanks though I think I will go either devotion or vengeance / divine soul with SCAG cantrips as you said. Still deciding on the oath but it looks like devotion.

[Klorox]

Draconic 1 gives more HP
Draconic 6 gives CHA to DMG (if it matches your dragon type)
Draconic 6 also gives 1 sorc point for resistance to that DMG.
Draconic 14 gives wings

Divine Soul 1 gives one more spell (always a cleric spell), and access to all cleric spells.
Divine Soul 1 also gives 2d4 to a failed save or attack once a day. (Pretty nice to use it after you know you've failed a save.)
Divine Soul 6 gives you the ability to reroll healing dice for 1 sorc point (A trap, only usable on Healing word, Cure Wounds, and the mass versions.)
Divine Soul 14 gives wings

Looking at the way it lays out, you have to weigh the decision, "Do I want access to Cleric spells, or do I want more HP and limited damage increase?"
For me, I think the versatility gained from the cleric spell list is worth the trade. Unless I would create a PHB +1 character, I would go Draconic.
Losing out on the SCAG cantrips is pretty rough, seeing as how that's how I get my forth attack in at later levels.

Now that we are in discussion of the multiclass combinations, I'm more a fan of Vengeance. You pick up misty step and hold person for paladin 2nd level spells.
This basically frees up your sorcerer 2nd level spells for whatever floats your boat, Suggestion, Earthbind, or forgoing Sorcerer second levels spells.
And lets not for get the easy advantage from channel divinity.

How do you get a fourth attack with this character?

[rbstr]

How do you get a fourth attack with this character?

With the Attack action, or in a whole round?
With the attack action and no spent resources only higher level fighters. I guess Hunter Rangers with Volley/Whirlwind sometimes.
If you add in bonus-action attacks from TWF, Polearm master or Great Weapon master most classes can do 3 in their turn.
Two levels of fighter and Action surge lets most classes do 4 attacks in a turn a couple times a day.
Add haste and PAM/TWF/GWM most can do 4 on thier turn.

[Klorox]

With the Attack action, or in a whole round?
With the attack action and no spent resources only higher level fighters. I guess Hunter Rangers with Volley/Whirlwind sometimes.
If you add in bonus-action attacks from TWF, Polearm master or Great Weapon master most classes can do 3 in their turn.
Two levels of fighter and Action surge lets most classes do 4 attacks in a turn a couple times a day.
Add haste and PAM/TWF/GWM most can do 4 on thier turn.

I was trying to ask the guy I quoted since he stated he can get 4 in the later levels.

I can’t figure it out either.

[jacob902uhhs]

How do you get a fourth attack with this character?

You can gain 3 attacks the first round of combat. Two from your attack action, and one hasted attack.
Second round of combat comes, two from your attack action, one hasted attack, and quicken a Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade.

Mapping it out,
L5 gives Extra Attack
L11(6P/5S) gives us Haste, which allows for 3 attacks. We can start burning slots for more sorc points for more quickened SCAG cantrips for 4th attacks,
but we are only at 2 lvl 4th spell slots.
L12(6P/6S) gives us 3 lvl 4th spell slots and 1 lvl 5th spell slot. Now we can burn a Fifth, and keep quicken around longer. This is where we really have fuel.

[RMcD]

I rolled 17, 15, 12, 11, 11, and 9. I get a free feat at level 1. I start the game at level 6.

I can use any race official or in UA. I am also allowed stuff like Matt Mercer's stuff and subclasses in Mordenkainen's codex of allies.

What would you do here? I think I would prefer a Dex based build but not 100% on that. Also if I start with Paladin I don't have to meet the STR requirements to multiclass. Standard campaign in terms of wealth, I rolled 575gp to start

[kymma94]

Is the author going to update the guide with XGtE subclasses? (Shadow Sorcerer, Divine Soul Sorcerer, Storm Sorcerer, Oath of Conquest Paladin, Oath of Redemption Paladin)

[Nidgit]

I rolled 17, 15, 12, 11, 11, and 9. I get a free feat at level 1. I start the game at level 6.

I can use any race official or in UA. I am also allowed stuff like Matt Mercer's stuff and subclasses in Mordenkainen's codex of allies.

What would you do here? I think I would prefer a Dex based build but not 100% on that. Also if I start with Paladin I don't have to meet the STR requirements to multiclass. Standard campaign in terms of wealth, I rolled 575gp to start

Those stats scream Human to me.

12 Str
16 Dex
14 Con (Resilient Con)
10 Int
12 Wis
18 Cha

And boost whatever you feel like at L4 or take Warcaster. Either go all six levels in Paladin and start leveling in Sorcerer in a level or two or go Paladin 5/Hexblade 1 and take your next Paladin level ASAP.

[Ghost Nappa]

After two years of theorycrafting and watching this thread, I'm finally going to actually try it out.

We're using Standard Array, but I can still hit 20 CHA even going 6/14 as a Half-Elf.

Wish me luck~

[Storyteller_Arc]

Has anyone seen Gastronomie around here at all? As it looks like the guide hasn't been updated in two years... which is quite significant length of time. Especially as both Rapier and Polearm don't have any advice at the moment.

[Arkhios]

Has anyone seen Gastronomie around here at all? As it looks like the guide hasn't been updated in two years... which is quite significant length of time. Especially as both Rapier and Polearm don't have any advice at the moment.

With my psychic abilities I sense that Gastronomie's Last Activity was Yesterday at 10:23 AM.

[Storyteller_Arc]

With my psychic abilities I sense that Gastronomie's Last Activity was Yesterday at 10:23 AM.

Hmmmm. On the one hand, it is good to see that he is still around. On the other hand, I'm not sure if he's interested in the guide anymore.

[Arkhios]

Hmmmm. On the one hand, it is good to see that he is still around. On the other hand, I'm not sure if he's interested in the guide anymore.

IIRC, I saw them respond to something a while back in the vein that they're just busy with real life affairs at the moment, but haven't forgotten or lost interest whatsoever.

[Storyteller_Arc]

IIRC, I saw them respond to something a while back in the vein that they're just busy with real life affairs at the moment, but haven't forgotten or lost interest whatsoever.

That would make a lot of sense.

[rbstr]

At some point, after reading though this guide and maybe a look at a sorc/paladin guide that talks about the new stuff, I feel like folks should be able to have a pretty decent handle into stuff not explicitly covered, like rapiers and how XGtE ect. fits in.

Beyond that: Going "Where's the guide for X, Y, Z" isn't really constructive at all.
I you want advice, why not actually ask for it? "I wanted to to X, it seems like it's good at Y, is that true, is this a good idea?" Plenty of people around here have a handle on the system and can offer good advice.

Like, a Rapier-based Sorcadin is basically a Longsword sorcadin but with Dex...so Draconic's unarmored defense looks neater among other things.
Or Shadow Sorc being pretty sweet for the access to seeing-in-Darkness-based advantage.

[Storyteller_Arc]

... I'm not asking for the advise through? Least not at the moment. It's more that the Guide is out of date, and I'm wondering when it might be updated with the newest material? Especially as I heard that XGtE changed quite a bit for how the previously UA stuff actually functioned?

Sure, asking for advice is all well and good, but having a complete guide just... feels nice, ya know?

[Metamorph]

Will the option of Oath of Conquest be added?

I would like to know your opinion about this.

[Spiritchaser]

Will the option of Oath of Conquest be added?

I would like to know your opinion about this.

I’d look forward to this as well, although i’d argue that conquest is probably the hardest paladin oath to MC sorcerer.

[Corran]

I’d look forward to this as well, although i’d argue that conquest is probably the hardest paladin oath to MC sorcerer.

Mmm, I'd say that it depends almost entirely on how your GM rules on if/how aura of courage interacts with the fear spell, as far as your allies are concerned. More specifically if aura of courage can negate/suppress the frightened condition on allies you caught in your fear AoE and who at that time were not within 10' of you. So if aura of courage cannot deal with a pre-existing frightened effect in a way that would move the fear spell into party-friendly-ish territory, I would say that multiclassing in sorcerer to get access to the careful metamagic (for guaranteed party-friendly fear) is near mandatory for any conquest paly player that wants to play to the strengths of this oath.

[samcifer]

What’s Your Weapon of Choice?
Part 2: Greatsword


You can never have too much of badass action scenes. (Image by Ufotable)

Greatsword Sorcadin
This is the offense build of Sorcadins, with terrifying damage capabilities on top of your magical versatility. In exchange for being able to inflict loads and loads of damage, you will suffer from lower AC and saving throw bonuses compared to a S&B build, so this build requires more careful crafting (beginners should first go S&B - you can’t go wrong with them), but if built right, it’s hilarious to play.

I said the S&B build is the “ultimate All-Rounder”.
The Greatsword build here is the “master of damage”.

Though you don’t get as many attacks, you will have a lot more ways to make GWM hit accurately than the average GWM Fighter, using your spells and the abilities of the Paladin and Sorcerer to their maximum. A large portion of the build should be built to synergize with GWM by improving your attack rolls.

Spoiler: Core Concept

Show

Core Concept
Great Weapon Master is a truly amazing Feat, and strong enough to build a whole character around. This is one such build.

+10 damage per hit is boss, but the -5 to attack rolls makes it difficult to use on its own. You need to combine it with something else to be truly effective. Thus we will use various spells and class abilities to improve your attack roll bonus, as well as gain advantage on the attacks, to make sure that you hit accurately as much as possible, and get to make the most out of the Great Weapon Master feat (advantage also increases your chances of landing a critical hit, allowing another attack as a bonus action!).

To be accurate with your attacks, you will want to prioritize STR more than S&B builds do. Taking the Blade Mastery (UA) Feat could be actually a better idea than an ASI, though, with a +1 attack roll bonus and two extra abilities (+1 AC with a reaction and advantage on opportunity attacks), both of them extremely helpful.

Spoiler: Going a bit off topic

Show

Now, one thing to note: due to the nature of character attack roll bonuses and monster ACs in D&D 5e, Great Weapon Master is generally stronger at higher levels than it is at lower levels. Your attack roll bonus will drastically improve with level progression, but the monster ACs don’t rise that much. Granted, this isn’t much of a problem, since Sorcadins themselves are better at higher levels. If you’re playing a Sorcadin, chances are you’re playing in a mid-to-high level anyway (READ: If your campaign is starting low-level, best to go S&B instead of GWM).

For instance, a level 1 Paladin with 16 STR has an attack bonus of +5, so even if he has GWM via Variant Human, he will find it difficult to use it all the time. Even at this level, your enemies have decent AC (for instance, Goblins have 15 AC, when they’re only CR 1/4), and the risk of -5 to hit is too much.

When this is a level 20 Paladin/Sorcerer with 20 STR and Blade Mastery, the attack bonus is +12 (in most actual games it gets even better with magical items). Then do your enemies all have 22 AC? Probably not, that sort of AC is reserved for special monsters like the Ancient Red Dragon.

Now, speaking of the Ancient Red Dragon...

GWM is designed to be better against hordes. It relies on the enemies having low AC (for the -5/+10) and dying frequently (for the bonus action attack).

Then does the Paladin/Sorcerer suck against powerful solos/duos?

NO!!!! Hell no, you’re awesome against solos and duos. This is because Divine Smite gives you insane nova damage and allows you to beat the boss to a pulp without giving him time to react. Even more so if he’s a Fiend or Undead. Together with your versatility via spells, once your level is high, you’re set to be effective in any sort of encounter.

Spoiler: Core Abilities

Show

Core Abilities
It should be noted that unlike the Longsword build, which is meant to be an “all-rounder”, the Greatsword build should revolve around the abilities of GWM, meaning that “increasing your attack roll bonus” and “gaining advantage” are your top priorities. Now what to go with that?

Paladin

• Fighting Style: As with Longsword builds, Defense is a good option for Sorcadins, and especially with how your AC is going to be lower than a Longsword build (despite the fact your HP is the same), you probably will want that +1 AC. Just because you’re going to be an offense-oriented build, doesn’t mean you can easily trash your defenses.
  The effectiveness of Great Weapon Fighting, meanwhile, depends on your DM’s rulings. Some DMs rule that the re-rolling works on Divine Smite, in which case this ability is Sky Blue. Others rule that the re-rolling works on the original 2d6, in which case this ability is Purple. Sage Advice agrees with the latter, but I honestly don’t take Sage Advice that seriously (the whole point of TRPGs is that the DM has final say, and Sage Advice should be specifically for when a DM really doesn’t know what to do with a certain ruling), and many DMs still go with the former ruling. Ask your DM beforehand about his thoughts on the ruling of Great Weapon Fighting if you’re going to build a Greatsword character (be it Sorcadin or not - Paladins and Battle Masters all apply, with Divine Smite and Superiority Dice). I personally think that even with the former ruling, it’s not like Great Weapon Fighting will ever be a game-breaking choice.
• Lay on Hands: It can be used to heal in-between fights (you have lower AC than a Longsword build, so you might get hit more often), or you can heal your Poisoned condition (which is fatal for any GWM build due to disadvantage on attack rolls). The fact you rely more on your attacks than a Longsword build means that this ability is extremely important for you. If you get poisoned during the middle of the fight and no one can neutralize your poison, it’s actually not a bad idea to use your action to heal yourself. Or, of course, you can still fling Fireballs with no problem though, so that’s another option.
• Divine Smite: It works when your opponent’s AC is high and you’re afraid of using GWM. Also, you will often have advantage, meaning you will roll crit as twice as often. Crit+Smite can severely injure and perhaps even kill boss monsters on its own, so the fact you get advantage often is a major boost to the possibilities of this ability.
• Extra Attack: If you go 6/14 (or 7/13) with Paladin/Sorcerer progression, the Extra Attack from Paladin 5, which increases the number of GWM -5/+10s you can fling per round, is a must-have.
  However, you can also go with 3/17, using Favored Soul for the Sorcerer Origin, in which case this is unrequired. Losing Aura of Protection is painful, but chances are, your bonus from it will be only +3 or something anyways.
  3/17 is better than 2/18, because Devotion paladins have an amazing Channel Divinity ability.
• Aura of Protection: Arguably the strongest ability in the entire game, and the reason to go Paladin 6. Even for Greatsword builds, it’s good.
• Improved Divine Smite: This is written here, not because it’s a core ability, but actually because it’s really not worth it, and I wanted to emphasize it. Extra damage is not something you should consider important either, since you already have enough of it from GWM (BTW, mathematically, if your original damage per hit is higher than a certain level, the “average damage per attack roll” becomes lower with using GWM, making using GWM a bad choice). And you want to be good at spellcasting.
  Whatever you do, DO NOT GO PALADIN 11 with GWM builds. And since the Oaths that are good for GWM (Devotion and Vengeance) both have mediocre level 7 abilities, being a GWM build, you should stop Paladin progression at level 6. Any more is a waste, unless your choice is Oath is unoptimized and you are going either Ancients or Oathbreaker (in which case it will be worth it, but it’s better to go with S&B).
  If you want the Aura of Vitality + Extended Spell combo, you should go S&B, not GWM.
• Bless: Level 1 spell. This and GWM work together nuts. However, you’re probably more versatile with your casting than most of the other guys in your team who can use this spell as well, so if possible, you should politely ask the party Cleric to cast it on you, instead of using it yourself. Especially at higher levels, when Greater Invisibility and stuff start to kick in (or if you’re a Shadow Sorcerer - which you should be - this stands for lower levels as well. BTW, interestingly, Bless does not require the Cleric to be able to see you by RAW, unlike many other spells, which means you can be Blessed even while you’re shrouded in darkness... Rather strange).
• Magic Weapon: Level 2 spell. Bypass resistance to non-magical weapons and gain bonus to hit, all packed in a nice, non-taxing Bonus Action. Upcasting it at level 4 makes the bonus +2, while at level 6 or higher it becomes a +3. However, it also requires concentration and cannot be used on already magical weapons, meaning that at higher levels it might start to taste bland.
  Elemental Weapon does similar stuff, but IMO it’s inferior to Magic Weapon in almost all ways, ‘cause it requires at least a level 3 slot to use, uses up your main action, and you don’t really need that additional +1d4 magical damage in the first place. If it didn’t need concentration it would’ve been hell amazing,but the creators didn’t make it that way.

Sorcerer

• Metamagic: Just like in the case with Longsword builds, do keep in mind that you get only two options, and the options don’t increase till Sorcerer level 10. Thus you should choose these wisely.
  First, Quickened Spell is mandatory, so that’s that. Then you should go for either Heightened Spell (when you really want to kill someone) or Twinned Spell (use on stuff like Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Haste, or Booming Blade*). I’d generally say you get Twinned Spell first - the buff spells are very synergetic indeed with your abilities.
  Since your CHA is going to be lower than a Longsword Paladin (in other words, the DC for your spells is a bit low), Heightened Spell is an ideal option in your case. However, depending on what spells you wish to use, Careful Spell can possibly become Sky Blue as well (spells like Web, Hypnotic Pattern and Stinking Cloud belong here. Emphasis on Web, which Restrains the enemies... Meaning that apart from gluing them in place and bestowing disadvantage on their attack rolls, you gain advantage on attacks against them!)
  *NOTE-Some rulings by the creators say Green-Flame Blade cannot be twinned since it must choose two targets. However, as with all rulings, this depends on the DM, so ask beforehand.
• Hold Person: Level 2 spell. Targets are limited to Humanoids, meaning it can be a rather campaign-situational spell, but paralyzing enemies with a level 2 slot is an insanely powerful effect - and most campaigns will have a good number of Humanoids to paralyze. Auto-crit means your Smites will work wonders, and more so with Quickened + Extra Attack. Unless your DM has officially stated that you will fight only Oozes for your entire career or something, this should be on your list.
• Haste: Level 3 spell. This rating of Blue assumes you already are high-level enough to have Aura of Protection (in addition to either Resilient (CON)). Until you get that, this is Red.
  +2 AC, advantage on DEX saves, and getting to take double the action (or one additional attack) is an amazing buff for anyone. It’s even better on yourself, given how you’re a good gish who wants extra turns all the time, and even better when you Twin it to affect some other powerful guy in your party as well.
  
  
  
  ^Kiritsugu the Magus Killer, having his Time Alter ability, agrees that speeding up your time is a powerful strategy indeed.^
  (Image by Ufotable)
  
  However, Haste also has the weakness of making the target(s) waste a whole turn doing nothing after your concentration is broken.
  This can be taken in two ways. The first way to think of it is that failing the concentration save is devastating, but this is not the real problem, especially since 16 CON + Resilient + Aura of Protection (+3) is enough to surpass a +10 bonus on its own, meaning you will succeed on the save all the time unless the damage is really big.
  The real problem is that AFTER USING HASTE, YOU CANNOT USE OTHER CONCENTRATION SPELLS DURING THE FIGHT.
  
  
  
  "ARGGGHHHHH FUUUUUUUUUU"
  ^ Kiritsugu, after he realizes he can’t use other concentration spells for the rest of the fight. ^
  (Image by Ufotable)
  
  Thus, use Haste with caution and care. It’s a wonderful spell in the right moment, but not all moments are for Haste. Don’t be afraid to use it when it’s worth it. Don’t use it if you think you wanna use other concentration spells later too. And be aware: you have quite a damn lot of effective Concentration spells.
  
• Greater Invisibility: Level 4 spell, and an absolute nosebleeder for almost any frontline character. It’s all the benefits of Darkness + Devil’s Sight or Eyes of the Dark, except it doesn’t hinder your friends, making this the better option (albeit costly). Requires concentration. Is it worth it? Most certainly. If this isn’t worth it, nothing really is.
• Hold Monster: Level 5 spell. So like, you can now target any monster with Hold Person. I really don’t think I need to explain why that’s a good thing.

Spoiler: Paladin Oath Evaluation

Show

Paladin Oath Evaluation
This differs a lot with Longswords and Greatswords.

Oath of Devotion
Sacred Weapon synergizes so amazing with GWM. In fact it synergizes so well that it easily makes this option Sky Blue on its own.
Advantage does not stack. This means that if you want to hit as accurately as possibly, instead of having lots of abilities that give you advantage, you should have both abilities that boost your bonus to hit AND abilities that give you advantage.
Generally, 5e has a lot of ways to do the latter. Then how about the former? The answer is “not many”, since 5e is fundamentally designed so you don’t need to crunch together a dozen bonuses each time you make an attack (it seems the recent UA additions are starting to go against that design model though...). Paladin is unique in that sense in how it has both Bless, as well as the Sacred Weapon feature (in a sub-class). You should put this trait to your advantage*.
NOTE-This is actually a really bad pun, given how the whole point of Sacred Weapon is that it has NOTHING to do with advantage.

• Oath Spells: A mixed bag of situational abilities that’s anyways extremely useful in how they’re free to take. All the Oath Spells options are good for you, considering how Sorcerers get so little spell selection, and you desperately need versatility .
• Channel Divinity: Sacred Weapon: Repeat after me: It increases your bonus to hit. Repeat again, after me: It increases your bonus to hit. One last time, after me: It increases your bonus to hit.
  IT F***ING INCREASES YOUR BONUS TO HIT!!!!!!!!!!!
  Need I say more? This is THE reason to take this Oath.
  Make sure to ask your DM if you can cast it before combat starts, to avoid losing your first turn doing nothing. Personally, I will permit it if it’s obvious that the adventurers had a chance to predict the upcoming fight (and also introduce enemies who buff themselves before combat, to make stuff equal). It does depend on the DM though.
• Channel Divinity: Turn the Unholy: Too situational to be given an actual rating. It is certainly not bad when it can be used, though.
• Aura of Devotion: Can’t be Charmed. Not “advantage”, you can’t be charmed. And sure it’s a nice ability, but it also sorta overlaps with racial abilities of an Elf or Half-Elf, and it’s also situational. A majority of Charming effects look at WIS, and with proficiency in WIS saves and Aura of Protection, chances are you’re gonna succeed on the save either way. If you’re going Devotion, level 6 is probably enough (unless you’re going level 9 for level 3 spells).

Oath of the Ancients
This is a really unique Oath in how it specifically allows you to be an extremely effective Mage Slayer without even taking the Mage Slayer Feat.
There are two reasons for this - the first obvious one being Aura of Warding, and the second one being Ensnaring Strike, a spell that rarely works on boss monsters with the exception of human Casters (!!), but is devastating if it goes off.
If your campaign is primarily about hunting evil Archmages and Witches, this becomes Blue. However, other from Ensnaring Strike, this Oath has little to add to GWM builds - and Ensnaring Strike is a situational spell.
WARNING: This rating specifically refers to when you go 7 levels in Paladin instead of 6. If you plan on going only Paladin 6, DO NOT CHOOSE THIS OATH.

• Oath Spells: Apart from having Misty Step, the spell Ensnaring Strike (limited to only Ancients Paladins and Rangers) allows you to make a target Restrained (advantage!). Sadly, it doesn’t work on most boss monsters (powerful monsters tend to be Large or larger and also have high STR), with the rare exception of that evil necromancer or archmage or whatever, which is indeed a terrible shame given all the benefits of Restraining someone (if the boss monster is that sort of guy who is Medium or smaller and has low STR, this becomes a lot better).
  Using Heightened Spell on Ensnaring Strike is a pretty good option in certain situations. See, due to the restrictions of Metamagic, you can’t Quicken and Heighten at the same time on a single spell, meaning that if you want to use your main action for Extra Attack but want to use your bonus action that turn to get attack advantage via spells, the options are very limited indeed. This is one way to do it, since Ensnaring Strike is a Bonus Action spell from the first place, and it’s indeed useful when you need it.
• Channel Divinity: Nature’s Wrath: It’s not that it’s necessarily bad, it’s that Ensnaring Strike is generally the better option, being a bonus action. At least this one doesn’t require concentration. It’s not bad when it can be pulled off, so better than nothing.
• Channel Divinity: Turn the Faithless: Same as Turn the Unholy - too situational to be given an actual rating, but certainly not bad when it can be used.
• Aura of Warding: The selling point of this Oath. Just like I wrote in the Longsword section, it’s situational, but when it works it’s so amazing it can win the encounter on its own. Enemy casters tend to have no way to damage you besides spells (or that pathetic “bludgeon with staff” attack that doesn’t work on you anyways), and this can really cripple them like hell.

Oath of Vengeance
Vow of Enmity is one of the very rare options that give you advantage on attacks with a Bonus Action and without a save. However, advantage does not stack (unless your DM has ruled otherwise), meaning that, say, if you’re a Shadow Sorcerer or something that can easily gain advantage from a different source, this isn’t as attractive an option as it should be (even then, it’s a nice back-up option though).
This option is very close to Sky Blue, and if your DM rules that Sacred Weapon can never be cast before combat, or you simply like the idea of a Dark Knight, this becomes Sky Blue. You will probably not regret taking this Oath in a GWM build. If you feel like taking it, feel free to take it.

• Oath Spells: This doesn’t give you much extra spell options when you compare it to the Sorcerer spell list. What it does is freeing up Sorcerer spell options and allowing you to choose more Sorcerer spells. That’s a pretty good thing.
• Channel Divinity: Abjure Enemy: Not bad as means to keep someone from escaping or running towards the backrow casters. It’s easy to forget, but unlike you, most casters are fragile.
• Channel Divinity: Vow of Enmity: It’s a Bonus Action, gives you advantage, and doesn’t require a save either. You want advantage. This is good for you. Eat it.
• Relentless Avenger: Not bad. Not something worth the extra Paladin level either.

Oath of the Crown (SCAG)
What was probably the best Oath for S&B Sorcadins becomes what is arguably the worst option for GWM builds. Having not a single offense-oriented ability, Oath of the Crown is pure anti-synergy with GWM, and is to be absolutely avoided for anyone reading this section.
THIS sort of thing is exactly why I had to do the time-consuming task of dividing the sub-class rating section into three different parts based on the type of weapon you’re using, each with different ratings. Your weapon defines your combat style. Since your combat style is different, the importance of a lot of sub-class abilities change drastically as well.
See, most of the class guides out there assign only a “general” rating to the class and sub-class abilities. Yeah, well sure, it’s helpful, but it’s possible to be even more helpful by specifying when it’s Blue like you rated, and when it’s actually Red.
Say, if I just said that “Oath of the Crown makes a wonderful Sorcadin” and ended it there, a lot of people might misunderstand it and start choosing Oath of the Crown even for GWM builds. That is not the sort of incomplete guide I tend to create here. You want to optimize reading this, right?
Anyhow, let’s move on to rate the Oath of the Crown for GWM builds.

• Oath Spells: Blue for builds that go Paladin more than 9 levels due to Spirit Guardians, Black for builds that go only 6 or 7. Not a bad list, but not as good as the other ones.
• Channel Divinity: Champion Challenge: Unlike the Longsword Sorcadin, your AC is not as effective, and you should care more about “swiftly killing all your enemies before they reach the backrow” more than “keeping the enemies around you and not letting them go”. This ability that was Sky Blue for S&B becomes dull Black for GWM.
• Channel Divinity: Turn the Tide: It’s not bad, it’s of course a nice ability to have. Just suits S&B more due to their “job”.
• Divine Allegiance: Using up your reaction is generally something you want to keep away from, and the 5 feet radius makes it even worse. Could be worth using if the friend next to you is going to faint, in which case this is a good use of your reaction, but generally, I would stop at Paladin 6, even if you were to take this Oath for some reason.

Oathbreaker (DMG)
If you’re going go go Oathbreaker, the best weapon for you is actually not a Greatsword, but a Glaive or Halberd. That way Aura of Hate works most effectively.
Sadly, there isn’t a Polearm section in this guide (at least not yet). If there is one, this will be Sky Blue no-questions-asked in there, but here, it will be kept Black.
Since you have Extra Attack, Aura of Hate is good to have. Going level 7 is pretty tempting, and probably not a choice you will later regret (unless you actually ever hit level 20 and your Sorcerer 14 ability that you lost was amazing). Do keep in mind that having too much attack damage from the start may actually make using GWM a mathematically bad choice, which may contradict the theme of the build (but even then, having bonus damage is a good thing).
All in all, the abilities given by the Oathbreaker are generally good and allow you to be a pretty wonderful melee character. The reason why this option is regardless rated as Black is because while the individual abilities are powerful, they do not exactly synergize with GWM, meaning that the Oaths that do (Devotion and Vengeance) are better choices. For this reason, to make it more clear that those two Oaths are superior, this has been rated Black. It’s not that this option is bad - it’s just that there are better ones for GWM builds.
This Oath (or rather, the state of “Breaking an Oath”) specifically requires DM permission in how many associated characters will be evil. Whatever the case, it’s part of player manners to be cooperative to the team, so do keep that in mind, even when playing an Evil character.

• Oathbreaker Spells: Every class needs something to balance itself out, and in the Oathbreaker’s case that appeared in its Spell List. The spells in here are not necessarily bad, but not the sort of stuff you will be using frequently either. Very situational and overall meh.
• Channel Divinity: Control Undead: It’s situational, but also as broken as hell when it goes off. Sky Blue in the right campaign.
• Channel Divinity: Dreadful Aspect: Copy-paste from Longsword: “The selling point of Oathbreakers in Sorcadin builds. The super-superb part of this ability is that the targets can’t re-attempt saves unless they get over 30 feet away from the Oathbreaker - there is no other way to escape the Frightened condition bestowed by this ability. But if you’ve already locked the targets into melee range, the targets must risk being hit by opportunity attacks to get over 30 feet away from you. And when that’s triggered, you use War Caster+Booming Blade to zap them to a crisp. This combination is absolutely devastating.”
  Even with GWM builds, this is a nice ability to have, especially since unlike the “Champion Challenge” of the Oath of the Crown, this ability also includes a defensive option with frightening your enemies.
• Aura of Hate: Works better with Extra Attack than it does with GFB and BB. Adding your CHA modifier to your damage rolls is good, and if your party includes a Necromancer, this ability becomes awesome beyond belief.
  Copy-paste from Longsword: This ability can become detrimental for you if you face Fiends or Undead, but by RAW Divine Smite somehow still works with Oathbreakers (I really think they should change the damage type to Necrotic and change the preferred targets to other monster-types for Oathbreakers, but anyways), so you can Smite them harder to kill them first before they kill you (and don’t forget that powerful undead can become best friends with Control Undead). That, or you can utilize your high CHA and spellcasting capabilities to simply slink back into the backrow and fling Fireballs until your evil friends have all been extinguished from the battlefield.

Spoiler: Sorcerer Origin Evaluation

Show

Sorcerer Origin Evaluation

Draconic Bloodline
None of the abilities the Draconic Bloodline offers you are bad. All of them are good. It’s just that they don’t necessarily mesh with the concept of GWM.

• Draconic Ancestor: Extremely campaign-dependent but can be useful in certain situations.
• Draconic Resilience: Using a melee weapon requires you be in melee range. If you’re in melee range, you’re more likely to be killed. And most importantly, people die if they are killed, meaning that having extra HP is always important for a melee character.
• Elemental Affinity: You generally don’t use Green-Flame Blade, which really downgrades this ability. Fireball remains buffed.
• Dragon Wings: Being able to fly is even more interesting for GWM builds than it is for S&B builds in how you can now reach flying enemies and engage them in melee, without fearing of the caster losing concentration (S&B builds can go ranged as well via spells without losing their main selling point).

Wild Magic
The first thing to say: Wild Magic Sorcerer is actually not a bad choice for GWM builds. The advantage you gain from Tides of Chaos can be really synergetic if combined with GWM. The real problem lies in how Shadow Sorcerers are so overpowered, but if your DM bans UA, you might as well use this for your GWM builds.
The powers of this class largely depend on how often your DM is willing to activate Tides of Chaos. Depending on the DM, this can become possibly upgraded to Sky Blue.
Tides of Chaos requires neither an action nor a bonus action, and not even a reaction. If your DM is a willing person and you can pull it off with some frequence, this can become a pretty damn interesting build. You should ask beforehand about his thoughts on this matter.

• Wild Magic Surge: Entertainment, which at times come with a price. It’s really fun and a good class, but not exactly the sort you look for in optimization. Since a lot of the effects harm the guys around you, make sure to always be in close range of your enemies.
• Tides of Chaos: Advantage on anything, once per short rest! And it recharges whenever the DM “feels like it”. This is largely dependent on the DM, but with the right DM, can be abused to hell. Use it on your attack rolls for maximum effect, or alternatively, save yourself from a save-or-suck.
• Bend Luck: Copy-paste from Longswords: “It’s like Bardic Inspiration, except you don’t need to give it beforehand. 1d4 might not seem like a large amount, but it’s very versatile in both boosting your friends and weakening your enemies. Works especially well with save-or-suck spells. Be careful how it expends 2 Sorcery Points and uses up your reaction - only save it for when you really need it.”
• Controlled Chaos: Avoid turning into a potted plant by accident. That’s pretty nice.

Storm Sorcery (SCAG)
Everything I wrote for Longswords builds in here also stands for Greatswords: “This is a wonderful Sorcerous Origin option that is both thematic and powerful. Sadly, it doesn’t synergize well with Sorcadins.”
To add, GWM builds should try to maximize their attack accuracy as much as possible. The Storm Sorcerer has nothing to add in that sense, which is actually a negative thing rather than a neutral thing, and in that sense, even the often name-called (if not underrated) Wild Magic is better. The Storm Origin is good for pure Sorcerers, but deserves Purple for GWM Sorcadins.
Below is all copy-paste from Longswords, since I didn’t feel the need to change anything.

• Wind Speaker: Great, so now you can speak with that raging Elemental that’s coming after the party to kill you! Better than nothing, but this ability will be important once in every, like, several hundred sessions (unless your DM is a good, creative DM who knows his job well, and specifically creates moments where this ability can be useful).
• Tempestuous Magic: Your spells are generally going to be cast using Bonus Actions, and even if it’s cast with an Action, you don’t need to run away from your opponents.
• Heart of the Storm: This ability is more important for Sorcadins than it is for pure Sorcerers in how you’re on the frontlines, and having a lot of enemies within 10 feet of you is a good thing, not a bad thing. Sadly, there are not many spells that deal Thunder or Lightning damage, and even when there are, dealing damage using spells is the least of your priorities.
• Storm Guide: This is one of those abilities that can become Sky Blue with the right situations but is otherwise too, and I mean too situational to be considered an actual class ability. If your campaign is going to be about a bunch of adventuring pirates, your party needs a guy with this ability, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be you, given how almost nothing this Origin offers is beneficial for a Sorcadin.
• Storm’s Fury: It’s like you have an unlimited supply of Hellish Rebuke, except with a less resisted damage type. Which is good. It also uses up your reaction, and thus robs you of opportunity-Booming-Blading and Shielding. Which is meh. Overall not bad, I mean, it’s still useful, but not something to get really excited over either.

Favored Soul (UA)
If you are going Paladin 6, this Origin is a joke. The level 1 and 6 abilities pertaining to proficiency and extra attack are basically worthless for you, since you already have them from another class. Chosen of the Gods frees up some of your Sorcerer spell selection depending on the Domain, but in general they overlap too much with Paladin and are not worth the effort. This is a terrible option for most GWM Sorcadins.
HOWEVER, if you are going to stop at Paladin 3 and take the rest in Sorcerer, this is pretty much the only Sorcerous Origin available to you - because otherwise you cannot gain Extra Attack. Now, it should be noted that 3/17 itself is a suboptimal option due to lack of Aura of Protection, but anyways, if you really want to go with it... Favored Soul is your Origin, no questions asked.

• Chosen of the Gods: Read this as “bit more spell versatility”. Not that it makes you as versatile as you hope. Let’s look at the Domain candidates.
  
  • Knowledge prominently gives us Command, Suggestion, Arcane Eye and Scrying. Not bad, but more of out-of-combat stuff than in-combat. Having Suggestion constantly ready gives us the freedom to take 1 extra Sorcerer spell. Not bad. Not the sort of stuff you expect from being a “Chosen of the Gods” either.
  • Life has honestly not much to give us, which is not a surprise, since all the important spells are already on the Paladin list, and we don’t need that many Paladin spells to make a strong Sorcadin.
  • Light is not bad, freeing up Sorcerer spell selection with Fireball and Wall of Fire. It also has Faerie Fire and Scrying, which are good spells. Faerie Fire is especially beneficial for Greatsword builds, but in all honesty, you’d rather have someone else in the party cast it.
  • Nature is a bag of situational spells that is not really that bad, but not the sort of stuff you would trade the level 1 and 6 abilities of the other Origins for.
  • Tempest has nothing special about it.
  • Trickery is an actually pretty good list, and is probably the best choice, since it has Mirror Image, Dispel Magic, Polymorph and Dominate Person, allowing you to choose a lot more Sorcerer spells.
  • War has spells like Spiritual Weapon, Magic Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and Hold Monster, so it’s an okay choice.
  • Death (DMG) is honestly bad.
  • Arcana (SCAG) is likewise meh.
• Bonus Proficiencies: It’s not really a “bonus” proficiency when you already have it.
• Extra Attack: It’s not really an “extra” attack when you already have it from another source. HOWEVER, if you’re going 3/17, this is your only way to get Extra Attack. Keep in mind it’s at level 6, not 5, meaning that (together with the fact you will start off with 1 or 2 Paladin levels) you will get Extra Attack several levels late.
• Divine Wings: Same as the Draconic Bloodline ability.

Shadow (UA)
Copy-paste from Longsword: “Also known as the Emo Sorcerer. The “Quirks” list included in the UA article is really fascinating, and IMO a list that should be added to any new supplements WotC publishes, but that’s not really relevant to this guide. What is relevant to this guide is that Shadow Sorcerers are a pretty strong - if not overpowered - choice of Origin that can both tank and attack nicely.”
Now, what’s important here is Darkness + Magical Darkvision, easily one of the most overpowered abilities in the game. Advantage on all your attacks, disadvantage on all attacks against you, and not getting targeted by enemy spells and abilities. Everything in this package screams “WIN”, and here, I’ll say it honestly and loudly, THIS IS THE SUB-CLASS FOR GWM BUILDS. If you want to optimize a GWM Paladin/Sorcerer build, there is no excuse to not taking this Origin. It’s that strong. It’s also that broken. I honestly wouldn’t permit it as it is in my games, and that’s a natural thing, since Unearthed Arcana is supposed to be “test-play material”, not “official material”.

• Eyes of the Dark: At level 1 it’s a Darkvision ability. From level 2 it allows you to cast an uber-empowered version of an extremely versatile Level 2 spell at the cost of 1 Sorcery Point, which is honestly nuts. It’s a badly designed ability, so you might want to ask your DM beforehand if it’s really okay to use this. My suggestion is to make it cost 2 Sorcery Points, in my games. And even then, it’s still strong.
  This ability works with S&B builds as well, but being a GWM build, you can make the most out of it. You’ll be sorta similar to how a Bladelock works (Bladelocks also use Darkness+Devil’s Sight - except you actually do it better...)
• Strength of the Grave: Emergency button for when you’re going to faint. Which is very useful for a tank like you.
• Hound of Ill Omen: Spending 3 Sorcery Points as a Bonus Action to summon forth a CR 1 creature that also bestows an enemy disadvantage on the saving throws of your spells. While a bit costly, this is a strictly better version of Heightened Spell. And Heightened Spell was already good...
  Even better for GWM builds, since your spell save DC will likely be 1 or 2 points lagging behind that of a S&B build, and you need a way to improve it. This is a wonderful way to improve it.
• Shadow Walk: While a bit situational, bonus action teleport of 120 feet is an extremely juicy ability for a frontline martial character who constantly wants to be in melee range of someone in the enemy team. Use this to teleport next to the enemy caster while you’ve got Darkness on your weapon, and the enemy becomes blinded, becoming unable to cast Spells that target. Hell amazing, if not broken. IMO this should have a cost, like 1 or 2 Sorcery Points or something.

Spoiler: Level Progression

Show

Level Progression

Now, unlike in the case with S&b, there is actually only one way to effectively progress levels in a GWM Sorcadin build. It’s to:

Go Paladin 6 or 7, and go Sorc all the way from there
The reason is fairly simple and easy to understand: You want to get Extra Attack as fast as possible. And if you’ve already went Paladin 5, you should keep on going Paladin till you hit either 6 or 7, for Aura of Protection, as well as the level 7 Paladin ability (if it’s one worth taking. If not, stop at 6). After that, Sorcerer. This is the only real way to go for a GWM build.
This means that GWM Sorcadin builds will generally start to get “real” at around level 9 or higher. Until that, it’s not that different from a normal GWM Paladin. Do keep that in mind if joining a low-level campaign.

HOWEVER, if you are going Paladin 3 / Sorcerer 17, you should go:

Paladin 1 or 2, proceed to go Sorcerer 1 to 6 > Paladin 3 > Paladin 3 / Sorcerer 17
You need to start Paladin for the heavy armor and WIS save proficiency. Then go Sorcerer, taking Resilient (CON) and Extra Attack. You can go straight to Sorcerer after the first level, acting as more of a Sorcerer with really high AC till you become level 7, or you can get Divine Smite and the Paladin spells with a level 2 dip and become a gish.
After that, get your Paladin level to 3 (here you gain access to Oath features like Sacred Weapon and Vow of Enmity), and once that’s done, go Sorcerer all the way.

3/17 is an overall sub-optimal build in how you don’t get the super-powerful Aura of Protection and neither do you get as many Origin features (your Origin features are mainly stuff that you would have gotten from extra Paladin levels anyway), but compared to the 6/14, you do gain these benefits:

• More higher-level spells: Apart from having 1 more level 5 slot than normal Sorcadins, you get access to Wish (albeit at level 20) and other awesome level 8 and 9 spells. (Sadly, being a Sorcerer, you don’t get access to Foresight, the most powerful spell in the world for gish builds. If you want Foresight, go Bladelock, because that’s another pretty good gish option.)
• More Sorcery Points: It’s honestly not that much, just 3 extra points.
• One more Metamagic Option: While normal Sorcadins get only 3 options, you get 4. I’d choose Careful, Heightened, Quickened, and Twinned, but other people may say otherwise. Depending on the campaign, Subtle may be a good choice.

Notice that all of these benefits are exclusive to higher levels, and that at the same time, at high levels, having bad save bonuses can be lethal. All in all I think 6/14 is better, but if you still want to go 3/17, take a look at the above info for some advice.

...That said, if your campaign is going to end before level 12, going Paladin 2 or 3 / Favored Soul X can be the better option. Especially if it starts at level 8 or higher (in which you can gain War Caster and Extra Attack from the start).

Are you planning to update the sorc subclasses? You list favored soul, but not divine soul.

[Spiritchaser]

Mmm, I'd say that it depends almost entirely on how your GM rules on if/how aura of courage interacts with the fear spell, as far as your allies are concerned. More specifically if aura of courage can negate/suppress the frightened condition on allies you caught in your fear AoE and who at that time were not within 10' of you. So if aura of courage cannot deal with a pre-existing frightened effect in a way that would move the fear spell into party-friendly-ish territory, I would say that multiclassing in sorcerer to get access to the careful metamagic (for guaranteed party-friendly fear) is near mandatory for any conquest paly player that wants to play to the strengths of this oath.

I was looking at this more simply from a leveling perspective.

You need paladin 7 for your aura of conquest. You “need” the fear spell, and you want to max CHA, plus you most likely need warcaster. (Not a given, but a strong likelihood)

Fear can come from paladin 9, or sorcerer 5, so you’re deciding between level 9 and level 12 to come online with that, and partly Because you want your second ASI fast but mostly because you want fear fast, it’ll likely be paladin 9 (which is great but you’re already pretty far in). Paladin 10 makes sense, but it can potentially wait. Even so, that means level 11 before you even get metamagic, and level 14 before you have a relatively versatile toolkit.

If you do go paladin 7 sorcerer 5, you delay fear, as well as aura of courage which you might really quite like to get, as well as that ASI, in favour of more casting options earlier. This is probably also workable, but waiting for 12 for Godot to show up with your fear spell is... well...

[Corran]

@Spiritchaser:

We have very different valuations on what it means to make casting fear party-friendly. Access to the fear spell alone, without having a feature that allows us to use it reliably (ie without crippling allies) and effectively (as you will usually affect more enemies after they get caught in a melee scrap with your buddies and you), does not mean all that much to me. Of course, I would look at that very differently if I am playing in a ranged heavy group, but then again, playing in a ranged heavy group would alter my whole optimization process (without going into much detail, I'd say that taking one level in sorcerer -for shield and gfb among other things- just after I had taken warcaster -so pal4/sorc1- would be a good plan; but it's not just that, playing as a sole tank/frontliner changes our priorities regarding character building in a drastic manner). So, paladin 9 means very little to me without paladin 10 (for aura of courage) or sorcerer 3 (for careful) in play, as that would make casting fear entirely dependent on initiative/positioning/surprise/etc and thus it would affect how reliably I would be able to count on it as the main tool in my anti-mob tactics. So, if aura of courage is enough, and assuming I don't plan on multiclassing into a caster, then paladin 10, vhuman for resilient con and two cha bumps, would be the quickest way to sort out the your fear tactics in the quickest fashion. The conquest sorcadin delays this by 2 whole levels (depending and on what level the campaign starts), which I agree that it is kind of a big deal, though if aura of courage does not cut it per your GM, then it is kind of a one-way route. It has some other advantages that might be enough to compensate for the delay and loss of paladin levels. Whether to aim for paladin7/sorc5 or paladin9/sorc3 is a tough call, but in a void, I would definitely prefer the former.

[Spiritchaser]

I don’t discount the value of that aura, but I don’t think it’s too hard to manage the fear spell without it, especially if your party has some basic guidelines on where not to be. Compared to moving a darkness spell around on a GWM bladelock, I’d say it’s pretty reasonable.

There’s always quicken spell-dash action to move extra far on that first round and put the cone exactly where you want. After sorcerer misty step could likely do the same (though I’ve notseen this)

On encounters where the lines are totally borked there’s always conquering presence, which is goin to have to happen much of the time at first anyway.

I gues it WOULD be accurate to say that relatively speaking, I value non-fear (preferrably also non WIS save) control alternatives more than I value the aura of courage, though if the game were to go very high, I’d rather like to have both.

All this said: this is really why I think conquest paladin is so tough to MC with sorcerer. You end up at quite a high level before you get the synergy you were looking for.

[jdolch]

I really like this guide. Awesome resource.

I Just wish Gastronomie would update it to include XGtE (and drop the UA stuff). The way it is now is just too dated. It's still god information but you really have to be careful in some places because the Information there is no longer correct. Which puts a huge Asterisk on this whole guide.

Edit: I made a quick and dirty Paint Job for 6/14 and 7/13 Builds for myself. It's not pretty but maybe somebody can use it.
https://i.imgur.com/mP6g49j.png