Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[MeeposFire]

Your Donning Armour .gif under neutral points is now a selfie of some hipster dude.

I'm assuming this was a recent source change, as I've already read the guide about 10+ times and I distinctly remember this being Saber summoning her armour beforehand.

LOL I went back to the first page to see what you are talking about and got reminded why I never go back to the first page since those animations take FOREVER for me to load. I do kind of wish that the OP would go with standard pictures instead but I think that ship has sailed.

[MrWesson22]

It's been 2.5 years since this guide was updated. Xanathar's Guide to Everything drastically changed this build, and it was released 1.5 years ago. I'm pretty sure this is a dead guide at this point.

[Benny89]

It's been 2.5 years since this guide was updated. Xanathar's Guide to Everything drastically changed this build, and it was released 1.5 years ago. I'm pretty sure this is a dead guide at this point.

I wouldn't say "drastically". It's just Divine Soul is now best option for Sorcadin in my opinion. Nothing else changed. Elven Accuracy while nice is little overrated and 6/14 builds are already heavy delayed for ASI (level 4, next one is level 10!) so building around EA is really not worth it if you play 1-20 levels as you will have bad concentration checks till like level 10 at least and not max charisma till like level 14.

So I still think Vuman starting with RES (CON) or Warcaster, and getting on 4 and 10 level +2 CHA is best for 6/14 build. The only thing is - Divine Soul is just now too good for 6/14 Sorcadins.

And there are also tricks that wasn't include here, like Extended Death Ward and Aid everyday for your party or Lay hands + Heal combo, but again, I wouldn't say "drastically".

The guide is still good base for building Sorcadin. Also it's hard to go wrong with building the most powerful multi-class build in game.

[Rhadamantis]

I looked for Aasimar and Divine Soul in this guide, but I realized it has yet to be updated.

How would you guys build such a Sorcadin? I was thinking about Longsword 2/18 build, with Protector aasimar variant. I'm a bit new to this, so if you could help, I'd be really grateful.

[MrWesson22]

I wouldn't say "drastically". It's just Divine Soul is now best option for Sorcadin in my opinion. Nothing else changed. Elven Accuracy while nice is little overrated and 6/14 builds are already heavy delayed for ASI (level 4, next one is level 10!) so building around EA is really not worth it if you play 1-20 levels as you will have bad concentration checks till like level 10 at least and not max charisma till like level 14.

So I still think Vuman starting with RES (CON) or Warcaster, and getting on 4 and 10 level +2 CHA is best for 6/14 build. The only thing is - Divine Soul is just now too good for 6/14 Sorcadins.

And there are also tricks that wasn't include here, like Extended Death Ward and Aid everyday for your party or Lay hands + Heal combo, but again, I wouldn't say "drastically".

The guide is still good base for building Sorcadin. Also it's hard to go wrong with building the most powerful multi-class build in game.

Divine soul sorcerer, conquest paladin, racial feats, new spells for sorcerers, paladins (and clerics if DS), hexblade dip. Yeah, pretty drastic changes.

[Storyteller_Arc]

As the DM said, he's been busy with work and stuff, testing out this new material takes time, especially as he prefers to actually play the stuff before making judgement calls, and if your going to bitch about the guide being out of date. Make it yourself.

[MrWesson22]

I'm not bitching. It was merely an observation. It's a very well put together guide and is certainly still relevant, but most sorcadin builds have changed at least a little, some drastically, in the 2.5 years since this guide was last updated. I was only saying if it hasn't been updated in 2.5 years with all the new source material that has been released during that time, it probably isn't going to be. That makes it a dead guide.

[Storyteller_Arc]

It's only a dead guide in the creator is no longer active and is not invested in updating the guide with new material.

They are still active, and they are still invested in updating the guide. It is as I explained, it requires time for them to actively test new material themselves, and they prefer to test material before declaring their opinion on it.

Therefore, the guide is not dead.

[MrWesson22]

Well, I retract my statement then. I didn't know the creator planned on updating this thread. I made what I mistakenly assumed was a fairly safe but assumption given the time lapse that the creator had no intentions of updating this guide. But still, you don't have to play every single option in order to know whether or not it's good. You don't have to have played a paladin monk multiclass to see that it's so ridiculously MAD that it's total trash, as an example. You also don't have to have played a divine soul sorcadin to know that it's awesome or have played a conquest paladin to know that they would be a great tank.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Playing the material still gives you a good sense of its strengths and weaknesses though. There is some stuff you can get just from theory, yes, but actually putting it into practice, actually experiencing it for yourself, is an entirely different matter. Heck, the Divine Soul Sorcerer is something I find myself sceptical about. Yes, you get access to the Cleric Spell list, which yes has quite a few strong spells on it. But you still have the incredibly limited Sorcerer spells known, and the Sorcerer spell list isn't exactly devoid of options either. With several of the Divine Soul's abilities feeling lacklustre compared to other Sorcerer's

[Arkhios]

Well, I retract my statement then. I didn't know the creator planned on updating this thread. I made what I mistakenly assumed was a fairly safe but assumption given the time lapse that the creator had no intentions of updating this guide. But still, you don't have to play every single option in order to know whether or not it's good. You don't have to have played a paladin monk multiclass to see that it's so ridiculously MAD that it's total trash, as an example. You also don't have to have played a divine soul sorcadin to know that it's awesome or have played a conquest paladin to know that they would be a great tank.

True, you don't have to have played it, but I disagree that its MADness makes it total trash.

Paladin gets just as many spell slots regardless of their charisma modifier, so it's still worthwhile if you had only cha 13 (or 14 at best), and Wisdom as high as possible. Monk benefits from decent strength as well, even though they can use their weapons with dexterity, so str 13 is hardly MAD investment.

[Ghost Nappa]

Remember how War Caster lets you attack someone with a cantrip when they leave melee range? The basic idea is that when somebody stupid turns his back on you, you attack him with Booming Blade to troll him, and also potentially kill him on the spot. At levels 5 to 10 this inflicts 2d8+STR damage with just that, but it doesn’t end there - since the enemy moved (that was the whole trigger of the opportunity attack anyway), the enemy takes an extra 2d8 thunder damage, for a total of 4d8+STRmod damage for just moving out of your reach. And it gets even upgraded at higher levels, to a maximum of 8d8. Oh god, look, just look at his face as he writhes in agony and falls dead crisping on the floor. Hilarious.

A note regarding Booming Blade: by strict RAW, Booming Blade does not synergize with War Caster. Your DM may allow it anyway, but War Caster allows you to to cast a spell instead of making the usual weapon attack. As this is a spell, your DM may decide that this does not synergize with Sentinel, which makes it less valuable.

[MrWesson22]

True, you don't have to have played it, but I disagree that its MADness makes it total trash.

Paladin gets just as many spell slots regardless of their charisma modifier, so it's still worthwhile if you had only cha 13 (or 14 at best), and Wisdom as high as possible. Monk benefits from decent strength as well, even though they can use their weapons with dexterity, so str 13 is hardly MAD investment.

Eh, 13 str, 13 dex, 13 wis, 13 cha just to meet multiclassing requirements for both classes. Then, of course, you don't want to dump con because melee character who also is a spellcaster. So yeah, total trash in my opinion, but that's another discussion altogether.

[Storyteller_Arc]

A note regarding Booming Blade: by strict RAW, Booming Blade does not synergize with War Caster. Your DM may allow it anyway, but War Caster allows you to to cast a spell instead of making the usual weapon attack. As this is a spell, your DM may decide that this does not synergize with Sentinel, which makes it less valuable.

... I mean the point is that you use it when your opponent is moving from your area, automatically triggering the bonus damage.

You don't want it to synergize with Sentinel, as you don't want to reduce your opponent's movement to 0.

[Corran]

Heck, the Divine Soul Sorcerer is something I find myself sceptical about. Yes, you get access to the Cleric Spell list, which yes has quite a few strong spells on it. But you still have the incredibly limited Sorcerer spells known, and the Sorcerer spell list isn't exactly devoid of options either.

Precisely.

With several of the Divine Soul's abilities feeling lacklustre compared to other Sorcerer's

I can see favored of the gods being pretty good for GWM (twinned) haste-spamming (vengeance, or less likely devotion) sorcadins. Anything that helps keep concentration and does not cost a feat is gold for these builds, essentially because it makes using haste (which is the core spell) more reliable against monsters that can spike their damage.

[Fryy]

Heck, the Divine Soul Sorcerer is something I find myself sceptical about. Yes, you get access to the Cleric Spell list, which yes has quite a few strong spells on it. But you still have the incredibly limited Sorcerer spells known, and the Sorcerer spell list isn't exactly devoid of options either. With several of the Divine Soul's abilities feeling lacklustre compared to other Sorcerer's

Divine Soul is great. The lack of spells known is a class flaw (IMHO), and an origin flaw.

Spirit Guardians, Death Ward, and Heal (twinned) are very, very good.
Sanctuary and Aid are also good.

This origin does give you one bonus spell known, although it must be a cleric spell. You can swap it out later, but only for another cleric spell.

Favored by the Gods is great, actually. It is 1x/short rest, it uses no action, and it is always an add-on to your roll result. In some ways it is better than the Lucky feat and I think it can be used in combination with Lucky.

[Storyteller_Arc]

I said several of Divine Soul's abilities. Not all of them. Several. I fully admit that Favoured of the Gods is a very strong ability, and worth considerating taking Divine soul for that alone. But the other abilities are a be

Divine Soul is great. The lack of spells known is a class flaw (IMHO), and an origin flaw.

And the lack of spells known is just made even worse when your forced to decide between two different spell lists rather than one.

Seriously, for each spell you state as being solid options, the Sorcerer likely has another option that's just as good at the same level. Through likely in a different way. The Cleric spell list definitely has better healing.

[Corran]

And the lack of spells known is just made even worse when your forced to decide between two different spell lists rather than one. Seriously, for each spell you state as being solid options, the Sorcerer likely has another option that's just as good at the same level. Through likely in a different way.

Agreed. Shield, absorb elements, misty step, fireball, counterspell, and presumably one non-fire AoE, and we re already counting 6 spells. And that's before we even get to what the second metamagic option and the oath is, factors which determine to a great extent what your concentration spells will be. So that's even more spells added to the mix.

It would have to be a good cleric spell that happens to work wonders in conjunction with what else our build can do, to seriously consider divine soul as the best origin. Otherwise, we are just collecting minor benefits from here and there, and I am far from certain if these benefits would sum up to, say, challenge the extra damage to fire spells (gfb included) that the draconic bloodline would give a S&B sorcadin (nevermind the extra hit points). The closest thing to this, IMO always, is probably spirit guardians for a conquest sorcadin, due to how well it can play with the CD under certain circumstances (it works fairly better than most other concentration AoE spells I can think of). Sanctuary had a lot of promise prior to the errata too, again for the conquest oath, but as is, it's just a very good spell and far from a reason that would make me say that ds is simply the best origin for conquest sorcadins. Still, I am far from certain if this interaction (SG + CD) is enough to make me think that ds is the best option for a conquest build. It's a good choice, but perhaps not the best. There are probably far better interactions between cleric spells and other sorcadin features, but until I hear more about this, I am very unconvinced about the value of this origin, same as you from what I understand. Going back to GWM sorcadins though (vengeance to be even more specific), I'd say that ds is probably the best pick for them (just because of favored by the gods and haste).

Spiritual weapon might be tempting enough, if we were talking about a sorcadin with many paladin levels (say 9-10 or more). Or more accurately, if we are talking about a sorcadin build (possibly with a 2 level warlock dip planned as well) with few sorcerer levels planned (say about 9). Because it's a spell that can help you economize sorcery points, and that's a good quality for sorcadins with not many sorcerer levels on board.

The Cleric spell list definitely has better healing.

Better in-combat healing. Most notable options would probably be healing word, mass cure wounds (which has good synergy with empowered healing) and heal. Mass cure wounds and heal come too late, and healing word although a good spell, it's not a spell capable of solving your in-combat healing problem. I mean, the situation must be pretty bad when it comes to ally pc's staying up, for someone to say that they'd pick divine soul because divine soul gets them healing word. Usually there are better fixes for this problem, most likely figuring out and correcting what the team is doing wrong in the first place. Bottom line, better or more options for in-combat healing is probably a bad excuse for picking ds, at least IMO. To say it in other words, I'd probably pick both healing word and mass cure wounds if I was playing a ds sorcadin, but I would not play a ds sorcadin so that I can pick healing word and mass cure wounds.

[paladinn]

I recently did a Sorlocadin build for a 5e power game. I haven't gotten to play much since due to "real life"; but I was wondering if someone much more familiar with 5e, multiclassing, min/maxing and power gaming could tell me if/how I've missed the boat.

Using point buy I started with Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 15

I went VHuman for the feat and +1 to Wis (13) and Cha (16). For the feat I took Polearm Master to get a sort of Extra Attack

Starting Vengeance Paladin, got Wis and Cha save prof, Heavy armor (chain), the D10, Divine Sense and Lay on Hands

I've envisioned the following progression:

1. Paladin 1 for heavy armor, weapon prof and HP.
2. Hexblade 1 for HB Curse, Cha SADness and EB
3. Paladin 2 for Divine Smite and Dueling Style (for +2 dmg). A spear is versatile and can work for dueling And PAM
4. Paladin 3 for Vengeance oath and Divine Health
5. Paladin 4 for ASI (+2 Cha)
6. Paladin 5 for Extra Attack (only 1 level off)
7. Hexblade 2 for Agonizing Blast
8. Paladin 6 for Aura of Protection

After that, I've considered doing at least 5 levels of Divine Soul Sorcerer to get lvl 3 spells (i.e. Fireball), metamagic and lots of smite fuel. Likely finishing up with paladin levels.

Any thoughts?

[Aimeryan]

I recently did a Sorlocadin build for a 5e power game. I haven't gotten to play much since due to "real life"; but I was wondering if someone much more familiar with 5e, multiclassing, min/maxing and power gaming could tell me if/how I've missed the boat.

Using point buy I started with Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 15

I went VHuman for the feat and +1 to Wis (13) and Cha (16). For the feat I took Polearm Master to get a sort of Extra Attack

Starting Vengeance Paladin, got Wis and Cha save prof, Heavy armor (chain), the D10, Divine Sense and Lay on Hands

I've envisioned the following progression:

1. Paladin 1 for heavy armor, weapon prof and HP.
2. Hexblade 1 for HB Curse, Cha SADness and EB
3. Paladin 2 for Divine Smite and Dueling Style (for +2 dmg). A spear is versatile and can work for dueling And PAM
4. Paladin 3 for Vengeance oath and Divine Health
5. Paladin 4 for ASI (+2 Cha)
6. Paladin 5 for Extra Attack (only 1 level off)
7. Hexblade 2 for Agonizing Blast
8. Paladin 6 for Aura of Protection

After that, I've considered doing at least 5 levels of Divine Soul Sorcerer to get lvl 3 spells (i.e. Fireball), metamagic and lots of smite fuel. Likely finishing up with paladin levels.

Any thoughts?

Very brief read, I would go with for point buy: 14, 10, 14, 8, 10, 15 ---V.Human--> 15, 10, 14, 8, 10, 16.
That gets you 15 strength for full plate.

I would then go to Paladin 5 before any Hexblade, given the small increase changing to Cha would give before the ASI at 4 (and then you might as well grab extra attack before switching). Once you have Vengeance 6, Hexblade 2, go to Divine Soul Sorcerer to level 5 for Spiritual Guardians is amazing for making you both more sticky and the damage is nice (two rounds is about the same as fireball, but with a much better damage type).

After that, I would probably stick with Sorcerer for more spell slots, more spells, more sorcerer points.

[paladinn]

Very brief read, I would go with for point buy: 14, 10, 14, 8, 10, 15 ---V.Human--> 15, 10, 14, 8, 10, 16.
That gets you 15 strength for full plate.

I would then go to Paladin 5 before any Hexblade, given the small increase changing to Cha would give before the ASI at 4 (and then you might as well grab extra attack before switching). Once you have Vengeance 6, Hexblade 2, go to Divine Soul Sorcerer to level 5 for Spiritual Guardians is amazing for making you both more sticky and the damage is nice (two rounds is about the same as fireball, but with a much better damage type).

After that, I would probably stick with Sorcerer for more spell slots, more spells, more sorcerer points.

I was counting on using Cha for melee. Is getting full plate better than boosting Dex, Wis or Con?

I wanted to go HB at level 2 to get EB and become Cha-SAD sooner. I'd even considered going HB 2 at level 3 to get AB. After that I agree, go Paladin 2-6. I'd already have sort-of extra attack via PAM.

Is spear my best option to start? Eventually I want to swap out for a glaive.

I know I won't be "the best" at anything; but I should be really good at melee, good at ranged, and ok at buffing and healing.

[Aimeryan]

I was counting on using Cha for melee. Is getting full plate better than boosting Dex, Wis or Con?

I wanted to go HB at level 2 to get EB and become Cha-SAD sooner. I'd even considered going HB 2 at level 3 to get AB. After that I agree, go Paladin 2-6. I'd already have sort-of extra attack via PAM.

Is spear my best option to start? Eventually I want to swap out for a glaive.

I know I won't be "the best" at anything; but I should be really good at melee, good at ranged, and ok at buffing and healing.

You'll be in melee, so you want good AC. The difference between Plate and Half Plate (the best you can get without Str) is +3AC, since you have no Dex modifier. The same for Splint and Scale Mail (the cheaper options); +3AC difference. Your saves will be good anyhow, due to the aura at 6 - an extra +1 to one of them is unlikely to come close to grabbing +3AC.

If you go Hexblade early, I would recommend going to 2 to grab Agonising Blast to give you a good ranged option. However, if you start with the 15 Str for the Splint/Plate AC then the difference switching from 15 Str to 16 Cha for attacks is not drastic - once you get 18 Cha at Paladin 4 switching to Cha attacks is more desirable (but you should grab extra attack at Paladin 5 first).

If you want to switch to Hexblade early, my advise would be to go Half-Elf for the +2 Cha (and the other two +1s), plus Darkvision and extra skill proficiency; the ASI at Pal 4 can then be PAM. Start with a shield and longsword.

Without GWM you are better off using a shield and a spear with PAM, in my opinion. The extra +2AC is more beneficial than the +2 damage average. Bear in mind, if you go Pal 6, HB 2, Sor 4+ you will not get your third ASI/feat (if V. Human) until 12. You could go to 4 or 5 in HB before picking up any Sorcerer if you wanted GWM faster (adding Eldritch Smite to your Divine Smite on crits can make for some huge nova potential). For example, you could go Pal 1, HB 4, Pal 6, HB 5, Sorc X - you would ASI/Feats at level 5 and 9.

[Storyteller_Arc]

As far as I recall, Polearm Master only works on a glaive, halberd, or quarterstaff, and not a Spear?

[paladinn]

As far as I recall, Polearm Master only works on a glaive, halberd, or quarterstaff, and not a Spear?

http://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/do.../PH-Errata.pdf

[Arkhios]

As far as I recall, Polearm Master only works on a glaive, halberd, or quarterstaff, and not a Spear?

http://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/do.../PH-Errata.pdf

The clarification that it includes even spears is actually quite recent addition. Added within only a few months, iirc.

[paladinn]

The clarification that it includes even spears is actually quite recent addition. Added within only a few months, iirc.

Makes sense tho.. The whole hoplite concept. And it's versatile, and I can throw it if need be. But then, that's why I have EB :)

I would probably only use a spear until I got some HP under my belt. Eventually I'd want a glaive.

[Arkhios]

Makes sense tho.. The whole hoplite concept. And it's versatile, and I can throw it if need be. But then, that's why I have EB :)

I would probably only use a spear until I got some HP under my belt. Eventually I'd want a glaive.

Oh, I didn't mean to dispute that. It has struck as incredibly weird to me that for some reason the "grandfather" of all polearms somehow wouldn't qualify for polearm master :P

[Storyteller_Arc]

That... is a pretty significant change. Losing the extended reach of the spear, in order to gain the +2 AC from using a shield. Not so good with Sentinel, that's for certain. But a very potent combination for a Sentinel-Less Polearm Master build...

I wonder. What would people say the better Sorcadin: Half-Elf with a Longsword & Shield, or Variant Human with Spear & Shield?

[Aimeryan]

That... is a pretty significant change. Losing the extended reach of the spear, in order to gain the +2 AC from using a shield. Not so good with Sentinel, that's for certain. But a very potent combination for a Sentinel-Less Polearm Master build...

I wonder. What would people say the better Sorcadin: Half-Elf with a Longsword & Shield, or Variant Human with Spear & Shield?

Once you got PAM (on either) you would switch to the spear - greater damage, more chances to crit, more opportunities to smite. Without PAM, longsword. If you have PAM and GWM, glaive.

[paladinn]

Once you got PAM (on either) you would switch to the spear - greater damage, more chances to crit, more opportunities to smite. Without PAM, longsword. If you have PAM and GWM, glaive.

Exactly.. and if I go with PAM as my vuman feat, I get an extra attack with the spear. If I go Hexblade at level 2, I add my Cha bonus to both attacks. since the spear is versatile, RAW I can do so even without another HB level. True?