Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Arkhios]

That... is a pretty significant change. Losing the extended reach of the spear, in order to gain the +2 AC from using a shield. Not so good with Sentinel, that's for certain. But a very potent combination for a Sentinel-Less Polearm Master build...

I wonder. What would people say the better Sorcadin: Half-Elf with a Longsword & Shield, or Variant Human with Spear & Shield?

Spear can't lose any reach it doesn't have. A spear is only a versatile weapon. With shield, the trade is between "1d6 and +2 AC" or "1d8 (two-handed)"

[Aimeryan]

Exactly.. and if I go with PAM as my vuman feat, I get an extra attack with the spear. If I go Hexblade at level 2, I add my Cha bonus to both attacks. since the spear is versatile, RAW I can do so even without another HB level. True?

Note that the +2 Cha Half-Elf gets is essentially equivalent to the Feat V.Humans get, by level 4.

Yeah, for spear you are fine with a single level in Hexblade. You'll require three levels for Pact of the Blade if you want to use a Glaive with it.

[Deathtongue]

I played a Sorceradin for AL. In AL, the Sorceradin > the Hexadin, no contest. Fewer, harder combats compared to the DMG standard. And the extra spell slots are really handy; I'm at Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 8 right now and being able to dump a 6th level spell slot for +25 extra maximum hp to me and two other people has saved our lives plenty of times. Quicken spell is also a surprisingly big deal. Quicken Haste + Sacred Weapon + GMW is a cheap way to cause my damage to spike for a combat with minimal resources. Or I can quicken a Greater Invis or a Stoneskin or even a Darkness for instant protection. Twin Protection from Evil and Good also trivializes a lot of combats with minimal resource expenditure.

I cheated a little bit and rebuilt my character to start with 13 strength after getting Gauntlets of Ogre Power form the Lost Mines of PAINDELVER. At character level 18 (So, Paladin 6 / Dragon Sorcerer 12) I can max out my charisma and burn an 8th level spell slot on Aid. With a starting Constitution of 16, fron Resilient: Con and picking up the Tough feat at Sorcerer 12, my character will have >200 hit points with the option to Quicken a Stoneskin. Only barbarians can beat that level of durability, and barbarians don't get effects like Shield and Aura of Grace to extend that even further.

That said, I'm really wondering whether I should've taken the SCAG as my +1 book. I don't really Quicken Booming Blade / Greenflame Blade as much as you think; the bonus actions are usually spend Quickening something else, spent on Wrathful / Thunderous / Branding Smite, or even just using the bonus attack attack from GMW.

If I had taken XGtE as my +1, I could be summoning a Unicorn or a Couatl to ride on by character level 19. And while Wild Sorcerer has been a surprisingly useful pick (spending your reaction + 2 MM points to add or subtract a 1d4 from an enemy's roll has REALLY come in handy) I think Celestial Soul would've been a better and more thematic choice. I probably could just live with +4 to Charisma and have picked up Polearm Master instead.

Also, if I went Celestial Soul, I could Quicken a Silence and then use Subtle Spell to cast spells within the Silence.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Spear can't lose any reach it doesn't have. A spear is only a versatile weapon. With shield, the trade is between "1d6 and +2 AC" or "1d8 (two-handed)"

... Its Spear & Shield vs Glaive/Halberd.

1d6 damage, +2 AC. Vs 1d10 Damage & Reach.

Once you got PAM (on either) you would switch to the spear - greater damage, more chances to crit, more opportunities to smite. Without PAM, longsword. If you have PAM and GWM, glaive.

Obviously, if you pick up PAM, Spear is better than Longsword. But if the PAM feat worth giving up the Half-Elf's +2 Charisma at the start?

[Aimeryan]

Obviously, if you pick up PAM, Spear is better than Longsword. But if the PAM feat worth giving up the Half-Elf's +2 Charisma at the start?

You can grab PAM at 4, or 5 if multiclassing. I would say the PAM in the first few levels is stronger, just about, but then it depends on how valuable Darkvision, an extra skill proficiency, and fey ancestry prove in that period - keeping in mind that sleep is a potent spell at those levels.

[Deathtongue]

Fey ancestry is okay at low levels but gets stronger as charm effects become more prevalent. The Darkvision is very valuable at low levels, especially if the whole party would otherwise have it. The skill proficiency, not so much. The stats paladins will invest in (STR, CHA, CON, sometimes DEX) are either redundant or limited to the point where an extra +2/+3 bonus doesn't really help. Paladins will want Athletics, Perception, and one of the three charisma skills. Having Arcana is a nice one. But you don't really benefit from six, not in the way that, say, a wizard or a druid would.

Half-elf closes the gap better at mid level when the proficiency bonus becomes large enough that a paladin will care about. Resilient: CON or Polearm Master or even Great Weapon Fighter (mostly for the bonus action attack, even better if you break out Vow of Enmity/Sacred Weapon) will serve you better at low levels.

[paladinn]

You can grab PAM at 4, or 5 if multiclassing. I would say the PAM in the first few levels is stronger, just about, but then it depends on how valuable Darkvision, an extra skill proficiency, and fey ancestry prove in that period - keeping in mind that sleep is a potent spell at those levels.

I'm thinking of survival at the lower levels..lol. Vuman and PAM would essentially get me 2 attacks out of the gate; and both attacks would use my Cha bonus by level 2. I know it would delay a "real" extra attack by a level, but it might be worth it.

Given that, when would be the best time to take HB 2 for AB? I want a good ranged option.

[Aimeryan]

I'm thinking of survival at the lower levels..lol. Vuman and PAM would essentially get me 2 attacks out of the gate; and both attacks would use my Cha bonus by level 2. I know it would delay a "real" extra attack by a level, but it might be worth it.

Given that, when would be the best time to take HB 2 for AB? I want a good ranged option.

When I played a Sorhexadin last, we were level 3 in some sewers, had got lost and hit a dead end. Trying to retread our steps back we came across a gelantinus ooze blocking the way - lets just say having Agonising Blast would of been so much better than the few javelins I had (I yet to take any levels in anything other than Paladin). It was nearly a TPK as me and the Barbarian were essentially useless - thankfully we had enough room to retreat until the Warlock managed to deal with it by himself.

Of course, I didn't really have any other encounters after that for a while that I felt I really needed a ranged option. Eventually you'll want it for when the DM decides to throw a strafing dragon at you, but you could theoretically be fine for a long time.

Extra attack at Paladin 5 is what you are aiming for. If you can live with one less attack roll and damage before that then beeline Paladin 5. If you want to be sure with a ranged option, then grab Hexblade 2 as soon as possible (so level 3), then go Paladin 5, then Hexblade 4/5, then Paladin 6, then Sorcerer from then out.

[Corran]

If you want to play a gish that uses a shield (which is something I would recommend, especially if we are talking about sorcadins), then you better get warcaster before you grab any caster levels. This will allow you to use spells with hands full (spells like shield for example), which is what makes your caster levels valuable. It also helps with your concentration, and that's very crucial too (though most people tend to ignore this). If you start as a paladin for the heavy armor proficiency then, ideally you want at least 4 paladin levels before you multiclass, because level 4 is the earliest point at which you can get warcaster. Taking your first caster level at character level 5 makes sense in that regard. It also makes sense from the ranged attack perspective. Level 5 is when cantrips power up, so at level 5 you will start noticing the difference between a ranged cantrip and a javelin (damage wise at least). If your caster levels are in warlock, you can always pick hex as one of your warlock spells, if you really feel that an additional boost to the damage of your ranged attack is that important. Getting a second level in warlock for EB invocations is not that important for what is meant to be a melee character, so I think it's better to delay further boosting your ranged attacks at least until you get useful things for a melee playstyle (extra attack, aura of protection, certain spells, etc).

[paladinn]

So taking Vuman/ PAM gets me a 2nd attack at lvl 1, and Hexblade 1 gets me EB and Cha-SAD at lvl 2. Should I go ahead with Paladin 2-5/6, or would it be crazy to do HB 2 first? Agonizing and Repelling would be handy; is EB by itself worth it? Is HB 3 worth it at all, or should I just put it off till right before I start with a glaive?

[jdolch]

I don't think it makes sense to take more than 2 Levels as Warlock. Even one Level is very hard to justify with your STR and CHA. Also there is no best way to do it. Just make a spreadsheet, map out what you get in each path at each level and make a judgement call from there. That's imo really the only way to do it, otherwise you always get hung up on what you get and forget what you sacrifice, that's just how the human brain works.

I myself did that and then decided to forego Hexblade completely (on a Character who started with 20 CHA). Although that was more because our campaign only goes to 10 and taking 2 levels in Warlock and 2 levels in Sorcerer doesn't make sense.

[Arkhios]

... Its Spear & Shield vs Glaive/Halberd.

1d6 damage, +2 AC. Vs 1d10 Damage & Reach.

Should've said so, then. But you said, and I quote, "Losing the extended reach of the spear" (emphasis mine). A spear doesn't have reach. Likewise, Spear ≠ Glaive or Halberd. They don't even look alike (see the picture behind the link; left to right: halberd, short spear, long spear, glaive).

If you want to play a gish that uses a shield (which is something I would recommend, especially if we are talking about sorcadins), then you better get warcaster before you grab any caster levels. This will allow you to use spells with hands full (spells like shield for example), which is what makes your caster levels valuable. It also helps with your concentration, and that's very crucial too (though most people tend to ignore this). If you start as a paladin for the heavy armor proficiency then, ideally you want at least 4 paladin levels before you multiclass, because level 4 is the earliest point at which you can get warcaster. Taking your first caster level at character level 5 makes sense in that regard. It also makes sense from the ranged attack perspective. Level 5 is when cantrips power up, so at level 5 you will start noticing the difference between a ranged cantrip and a javelin (damage wise at least). If your caster levels are in warlock, you can always pick hex as one of your warlock spells, if you really feel that an additional boost to the damage of your ranged attack is that important. Getting a second level in warlock for EB invocations is not that important for what is meant to be a melee character, so I think it's better to delay further boosting your ranged attacks at least until you get useful things for a melee playstyle (extra attack, aura of protection, certain spells, etc).

The problem with this is that you need to be able to cast at least one spell before you can take War Caster.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Should've said so, then. But you said, and I quote, "Losing the extended reach of the spear" (emphasis mine). A spear doesn't have reach. Likewise, Spear ≠ Glaive or Halberd. They don't even look alike.

... Being pedantic is not cute or funny. It's simply annoying and a waste of time.

I meant polearm, not spear, ****ing obviously, and I know there's a ****ing difference between a spear, glaive and Halberd.

[Arkhios]

... Being pedantic is not cute or funny. It's simply annoying and a waste of time.

I meant polearm, not spear, ****ing obviously, and I know there's a ****ing difference between a spear, glaive and Halberd.

I'm not trying to be cute or funny. Although, now I am a bit amused (and sad) that you got so heated up by it. Grow a spine.

Besides, how should I know you know the difference if you don't show it? If someone is wasting time, it's you. Remember, the thread is read by many more than just you or I. If there are misleading information, some people may become confused. I only aim to prevent confusion by talking about things with their accurate terms and names.

[Storyteller_Arc]

I'm not trying to be cute or funny. Although, now I am a bit amused (and sad) that you got so heated up by it. Grow a spine.

I have a Spine. It's why I'm standing up to a jerk and telling him to stop being such a massive jerk and stop wasting everyone's time. There's no misleading information or confusion being expressed. Everyone in the thread save for them understood what I was talking about, and didn't decide to be a pedantic jerk about it either.

[Arkhios]

I have a Spine. It's why I'm standing up to a jerk and telling him to stop being such a massive jerk and stop wasting everyone's time. There's no misleading information or confusion being expressed. Everyone in the thread save for them understood what I was talking about, and didn't decide to be a pedantic jerk about it either.

You do realize that if you had used accurate names and terms from the beginning, this could've been avoided? Please, answer me: You do realise that I (or anyone else) can't know that you know the difference, if you don't show it?

For the record, I'm not trolling here. I'm dead serious. And I wasn't being "a jerk" intentionally. I only felt compelled to point out a flaw in what I read. From my perspective, at the time, I didn't know you knew the difference. In other words, I thought maybe you don't; I thought maybe I'd be helpful and tell you the difference. Is trying to be helpful forbidden now?

[Storyteller_Arc]

You do realize that if you had used accurate names and terms from the beginning, this could've been avoided? Please, answer me: You do realise that I (or anyone else) can't know that you know the difference, if you don't show it?

You do realise that you are the only one here who has expressed confusion over the matter, right? You do realise that everyone else in this thread was able to look at my post, use a modicum of common sense and logic and go 'Aaaaah, he's comparing the two different types of Polearms. That makes sense'. Instead of taking the post in the most literal sense possible?

You do realise that instead of wasting everyone's time by insisting that each and every mistake should be pointed out and corrected, we could have avoided this if you treated everyone here as human and realized that no one reading the thread is going to be confused by my post?

[Arkhios]

You do realise that you are the only one here who has expressed confusion over the matter, right? You do realise that everyone else in this thread was able to look at my post, use a modicum of common sense and logic and go 'Aaaaah, he's comparing the two different types of Polearms. That makes sense'. Instead of taking the post in the most literal sense possible?

You do realise that instead of wasting everyone's time by insisting that each and every mistake should be pointed out and corrected, we could have avoided this if you treated everyone here as human and realized that no one reading the thread is going to be confused by my post?

You can't say no one reading the thread is going to be confused by your post. You don't know that. You can't know that. Unless you're a psychic, of course.

For whatever it's worth, I'm done with this. Stand down from your barricades, already.

[Deathtongue]

For whatever it's worth, I'm done with this. Stand down from your barricades, already.

You were being overly pedantic and derailing the thread by harping on about a minor point of order. Their anger is justified, especially now that you're being passive-aggressive about it.

[Arkhios]

You were being overly pedantic and derailing the thread by harping on about a minor point of order. Their anger is justified, especially now that you're being passive-aggressive about it.

I said I was done with this, was it really necessary to dig it up again? I may well have been passive-aggressive about it in my previous posts, but it's because my initial attempt of being helpful was seen as -- and twisted into -- being a malicious jerk (which I never wanted to be), and only because I can't read their mind. My initial response was to what I could read. And frankly, that was neutral in all respects. The next one, I admit it, was a bit cheeky. But never malicious.

If being pedantic is forbidden in these forums, please show me where it's said. Until then, I've done nothing wrong.

[Storyteller_Arc]

My initial response was to what I could read. And frankly, that was neutral in all respects. The next one, I admit it, was a bit cheeky. But never malicious.

The first post was fine. Annoying. But tolerable.

The second post. With your entirely unnecessary passive-aggressive pedantic pointing out of my mistake despite the fact I had already clarified the mistake. Is when you started to become an issue.

[Arkhios]

The first post was fine. Annoying. But tolerable.

The second post. With your entirely unnecessary passive-aggressive pedantic pointing out of my mistake despite the fact I had already clarified the mistake. Is when you started to become an issue.

My second post was what it was because your so-called clarification was laid out in a way that as if I should've known what you meant in the first place. Your own arrogance brought up my cheekiness. I wouldn't say all this was entirely my fault. There's fault in both of us. I admit my reaction to your arrogance was a tad inappropriate.

[Storyteller_Arc]

My second post was what it was because your so-called clarification was laid out in a way that as if I should've known what you meant in the first place. Your own arrogance brought up my cheekiness. I wouldn't say all this was entirely my fault. There's fault in both of us. I admit my reaction to your arrogance was a tad inappropriate.

I'm sorry. But who are you to talk of arrogance?

Your the one that's been acting all high and mighty with your perfectionist, 'I talk with accurate names and terms' attitude.

All I've done is call you out on this **** and point out that your the one here who had an issue with my mistake. As everyone else in the thread, and anyone who has a reasonable level of common sense and intelligence, is able to understand my meaning and intention, regardless of the inaccurate term being used.

[Arkhios]

I'm sorry. But who are you to talk of arrogance?

Your the one that's been acting all high and mighty with your perfectionist, 'I talk with accurate names and terms' attitude.

All I've done is call you out on this **** and point out that your the one here who had an issue with my mistake. As everyone else in the thread, and anyone who has a reasonable level of common sense and intelligence, is able to understand my meaning and intention, regardless of the inaccurate term being used.

Fair. I am perfectionist, and that probably leads to a certain level of arrogance on my part. But the reason why I aim to be accurate and direct is to avoid any potential confusion in regards to my own intentions. I prefer to use accurate words from the start, so that I wouldn't have to explain myself afterwards. I aim for clarity. And I wish others would do so as well.

By the way, I sincerely hope you're not trying to hint towards that I'm lacking "reasonable level of common sense and intelligence", because that's an euphemism of claiming that I'm stupid. Which I'm not. Perfectionist, yes. Pedantic. I can admit that too. But not stupid. Far from it.

For the record, I never said anything like that about you. Neither euphemism nor direct.

[Alucard89]

PAM is not worth on 6/14 Sorcadins, too much ASI stretch.

Even if Vuman starts with PAM, you get next ASI at level 4 which would be let's say War Caster.

Then you have to wait till level 10 to get +2 CHA and to level 14 to get +2 CHA.

Considering your are Gish + Aura- faster maxed Charisma is worth more for your than PAM: it increases your Aura saves, your spells DC and your Social Skills (which you should be proficient in). Bonus attack you can have from Spiritual Weapon or Quicken blade cantrip.

WarCaster may require 1st level casting but 99% DMs I have ever played with allowed Vumans to take WC at Paladin 1. First ask your DM.

If you DM won't allow it- just start with RES (CON) and skip War Caster. Get +2 CHA at 4th and at 10th level and you have good. After that I would consider to maybe grab PAM, though I would more recommend Shield Master or Inspiring Leader.

As for Hexadins. If damage is all you are looking for: 2 Paladin/18 Hexblade is my favourite split. Go Vuman with PAM at level 1, then GWM at level 6 and +2 CHA at level 10 and +2 CHA at level 14. You have tons of ways to get advantage + double Smite on crit if you need to deliver heavy strike. You can go 3/17 to have more slots for Shield spell + Oath channel (I would go Vengeance).

Some people may recommend you Half-Elf but they comes online very very slow as Elven Accuracy would be taken at level 6, PAM at level 10, GWM at level 14 and +2 CHA at level 18.

Vuman all the way when it comes to multiclass. Extra feat is that strong for most of them, setting you up 4 levels faster. Which is big deal if you play from level 1.

[torrmh]

Very brief read, I would go with for point buy: 14, 10, 14, 8, 10, 15 ---V.Human--> 15, 10, 14, 8, 10, 16.
That gets you 15 strength for full plate.

I would then go to Paladin 5 before any Hexblade, given the small increase changing to Cha would give before the ASI at 4 (and then you might as well grab extra attack before switching). Once you have Vengeance 6, Hexblade 2, go to Divine Soul Sorcerer to level 5 for Spiritual Guardians is amazing for making you both more sticky and the damage is nice (two rounds is about the same as fireball, but with a much better damage type).

After that, I would probably stick with Sorcerer for more spell slots, more spells, more sorcerer points.

This is my exact build in AL, but I did Paladin 1 -> Hexblade 1 -> Paladin 5. Same stats. I picked PAM as a feat and ASI CHA+2, and defense fighting style (due to possibly going over to glaive/halberd later - yes I know I'll have to take Warlock 3 if I want to wield it with CHA) and I'm using a spear and shield. Currently at level 6, and my next level will be Hexblade 2 to get Devils Sight and Agonizing Blast. Will definitely go Paladin 6 on level 8 to get the aura, and Sorcerer 5 to get Spirit Guardians.

After that I'm undecided for now, but Improved Divine Smite is tempting, so Paladin 12/Sorcerer 5/War 3 could be an option, or just go Sorcerer for the remainder for more sorcery points.

[Alucard89]

This is my exact build in AL, but I did Paladin 1 -> Hexblade 1 -> Paladin 5. Same stats. I picked PAM as a feat and ASI CHA+2, and defense fighting style (due to possibly going over to glaive/halberd later - yes I know I'll have to take Warlock 3 if I want to wield it with CHA) and I'm using a spear and shield. Currently at level 6, and my next level will be Hexblade 2 to get Devils Sight and Agonizing Blast. Will definitely go Paladin 6 on level 8 to get the aura, and Sorcerer 5 to get Spirit Guardians.

After that I'm undecided for now, but Improved Divine Smite is tempting, so Paladin 12/Sorcerer 5/War 3 could be an option, or just go Sorcerer for the remainder for more sorcery points.

If you already went for 1 Hexdip, don't split yourself for Sorcerer. Just do either paladin 11/9 Hexblade or 12 Paladin/8 Hexblade.

And if you want to just go 1 Hexblade, you would be better to go Pal 6/1 Hex/13 Sorc.

Also there is no point going for more than 1 Hexblade unless you will continue for max Hexblade levels or 2-handed weapons (and Spear + Shield is better than GWM for Paladin and without GWM there is no point going for 2-handed polearms. Unless you take Sentinel then it's a different story). Agonizing Blast is not really important for you. It takes Action to Cast it and you can't make bonus action attack from PAM because you need to take attack action in your turn and E-Blast is spell.

So you would do more DPR on target with just Improved Divine Smite 2 attacks + PAM bonus attack and attach one low-med level Smite. You will find yourself not using E-Blast at all in real gameplay scenario as you will be more efficient wil melee 9/10 times.

As for Seeing in Darkness- if it's AL just buy Goggles of Night (uncommon item) or have anyone cast Light cantrip on your weapon. You don't really need darkvision as melee.

[torrmh]

If you already went for 1 Hexdip, don't split yourself for Sorcerer. Just do either paladin 11/9 Hexblade or 12 Paladin/8 Hexblade.

And if you want to just go 1 Hexblade, you would be better to go Pal 6/1 Hex/13 Sorc.

I've read all your earlier posts on this particular build, and enjoyed them a lot.

The thing is that I really like the idea of being able to do a quickened hold person,be able to cast spirit guardians and also being able to do the whole devil's sight / darkness shenanigans. Also, the difference in spell slots isn't really that huge if I remember correctly, although the number of sorcery points certainly is, as well as being able to cast 7th level spells compared to 3rd level. But I feel my character is more of a martial than a spellcaster.

The extra Hexblade levels will give me Eldritch Smite and Shadows of Moil, but I still think I like my proposed splits better

That said, my opinion changes all the time, and I could probably end up with a different conclusion by the time I need to make the choice, hehe...

EDIT after seeing your edit: If I was going to take the 3rd Warlock level at all, it would be late game, and yes, I would take GWM if so. And Goggles of Night wouldn't enable me to see in the Darkness spell, you need Devil's Sight for that, I think.

[Alucard89]

I've read all your earlier posts on this particular build, and enjoyed them a lot.

The thing is that I really like the idea of being able to do a quickened hold person,be able to cast spirit guardians and also being able to do the whole devil's sight / darkness shenanigans. Also, the difference in spell slots isn't really that huge if I remember correctly, although the number of sorcery points certainly is, as well as being able to cast 7th level spells compared to 3rd level. But I feel my character is more of a martial than a spellcaster.

The extra Hexblade levels will give me Eldritch Smite and Shadows of Moil, but I still think I like my proposed splits better

That said, my opinion changes all the time, and I could probably end up with a different conclusion by the time I need to make the choice, hehe...

EDIT after seeing your edit: If I was going to take the 3rd Warlock level at all, it would be late game, and yes, I would take GWM if so. And Goggles of Night wouldn't enable me to see in the Darkness spell, you need Devil's Sight for that, I think.

With 5 levels of Sorc you will be able to do only 2 Quicken Cantrips. You already have PAM bonus action attack, no point in that. Quicken Hold Person is good, but strongest enemies are mostly not humanoids so it's situational at best.

The general rule is: pure Sorcadins 2/18 or 6/14 don't need PAM as they can later quicken a lot of extra attacks when they need to. If you want to have that + SAD CHA I recommend 6/1/13 split.

Another thing is: Paladins don't really like or need GWM. If you do math at higher AC: 17+ PAM Paladin wins when it comes to Smite DPR vs GWM Paladin because he hits more often and with Paladin the other general rule is: the stronger your attack is, the more costly is the miss.

So Spear + Shield will out damage GWM when it comes to Smite DPR at AC 17+ so no point taking GWM.

Mostly when you build Sorcadins you don't want PAM unless you will go more into Paladin levels to grab ASI faster and IDS to make bonus attack more viable without Smites. Maxing out CHA + getting concentration boost by either RES (CON) or Warcaster is much more important for them.

Of course you will be strong anyway. There is no way to really screw Sorcadin. It's the strongest build in game. However since this is optimization question- I just share what is imo best to do. Build him as you won't, it's not like you will not be able to roll through ALwith it :).

If I was to make PAM Paladin I would go 12 Paladin/1 Hexblade (1- PAM, 4- War Caster, 9- +2 CHA, 13 + 2 CHA) and then either finish rest with Hexblade to get Eldricht Smite + Cloak of Flies + Improved Pact Weapon or finish with 7 Level of Divine Sorcerer. That is PAM build. it's not as strong as 6/14 Sorcadin but it's really strong too.

If I was to make min-maxed Sorcadin it's standard 6/14 with RES (CON)/War Caster level 1, 20 CHA by level 10 and using Sword + Shield with Quicken Cantrips + Spirit Guardians to kill everything. It can smite more, harder and have tons of more options like Extended Aid + Death Ward and Holy Weapon. IN AL SAD CHA is not important at all (and in most DnD games) as you can easly get Ogre Gloves (19 STR) or Hilt Giant Belt (21 STR) without investing ASI for STR or dipping for CHA.

[Aimeryan]

With 5 levels of Sorc you will be able to do only 2 Quicken Cantrips. You already have PAM bonus action attack, no point in that. Quicken Hold Person is good, but strongest enemies are mostly not humanoids so it's situational at best.

The general rule is: pure Sorcadins 2/18 or 6/14 don't need PAM as they can later quicken a lot of extra attacks when they need to. If you want to have that + SAD CHA I recommend 6/1/13 split.

Another thing is: Paladins don't really like or need GWM. If you do math at higher AC: 17+ PAM Paladin wins when it comes to Smite DPR vs GWM Paladin because he hits more often and with Paladin the other general rule is: the stronger your attack is, the more costly is the miss.

So Spear + Shield will out damage GWM when it comes to Smite DPR at AC 17+ so no point taking GWM.

Mostly when you build Sorcadins you don't want PAM unless you will go more into Paladin levels to grab ASI faster and IDS to make bonus attack more viable without Smites. Maxing out CHA + getting concentration boost by either RES (CON) or Warcaster is much more important for them.

Of course you will be strong anyway. There is no way to really screw Sorcadin. It's the strongest build in game. However since this is optimization question- I just share what is imo best to do. Build him as you won't, it's not like you will not be able to roll through ALwith it :).

If I was to make PAM Paladin I would go 12 Paladin/1 Hexblade (1- PAM, 4- War Caster, 9- +2 CHA, 13 + 2 CHA) and then either finish rest with Hexblade to get Eldricht Smite + Cloak of Flies + Improved Pact Weapon or finish with 7 Level of Divine Sorcerer. That is PAM build. it's not as strong as 6/14 Sorcadin but it's really strong too.

If I was to make min-maxed Sorcadin it's standard 6/14 with RES (CON)/War Caster level 1, 20 CHA by level 10 and using Sword + Shield with Quicken Cantrips + Spirit Guardians to kill everything. It can smite more, harder and have tons of more options like Extended Aid + Death Ward and Holy Weapon. IN AL SAD CHA is not important at all (and in most DnD games) as you can easly get Ogre Gloves (19 STR) or Hilt Giant Belt (21 STR) without investing ASI for STR or dipping for CHA.

Pretty much agree with all of this; I too prefer sword + shield and Quicken Cantrips + Spirit Guardians. I don't play AL and we roll stats, so Half-Elf for 20 Cha and a 6/1/13 build makes more sense for me (especially since the stat items are unliked in my group). Otherwise, yeah probably 6/14 if I was playing in AL.

If they want to do the PAM + GWM thing, though, they'll need Hexblade 3 - and at that point 4 becomes really attractive for the ASI/Feat. Then 5 becomes attractive for Eldritch Smite and the 3rd level slots. Pal 6/Hex 5/Sor 9 still gives a lot of smite fuel, good spell selections for a gish, and the nova potential is huge. It also has good resourceless (other than a concentration spell) DPR.