Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Storyteller_Arc]

Personally, I think you are underestimating how useful Agonizing Blast is when it comes to having a solid, ranged DPS potential. Even as a simply Cantrip, Eldritch Blast is easily comparable, and likely far superior to any ranged weapon that a Paladin could get their hands on, due to use Charisma for its attack rolls, and its multiple rays giving you multiple attempts to hit someone, or even hit multiple enemies at range. Sure, at level 5 you have the Extra Attack action, which matches the Eldritch Blast, but when the Eldritch Blast starts upgrading itself afterwards, you start beating out all but a dedicated archer when it comes to your ranged DPS.

Adding Agonizing Blast to this damage, really turns Eldritch Blast into a nice bonus as a Warlock, into a reason to dip the Warlock at all. The Paladin is always going to be a melee character, first and foremost. Its Smites and Smite Spells only function when your fighting in melee, and you don't have the ranged fighting style as an option either. But that doesn't mean that having a ranged attack is not an essential factor that needs to be taken into consideration. There is almost always going to be times in a campaign, where you want to make a ranged attack. Where the enemy is out of reach, or you do not want to give up a superior position to attack them. This is where the damage of the Eldritch Blast, and especially the damage of an Agonizing Blast Eldritch Blast, will come in crucial and is almost guaranteed to be worth that single Paladin or Sorcerer level you are giving up to gain it.

Optimizing isn't just about taking a single roll, and pushing it to the strongest possible extreme you can take it. But also making note of flaws and weaknesses in the build, and seeing if they cannot be shored up without too much being lost from the main strengths of the character. Warlock 2 for Agonizing Blast is 100% worth if you are already going Warlock 1 for Hexblade.

Now, whenever or not Hexblade is worth a dip in the first place... that's an entirely different argument altogether. Especially for a Sorcadin build.

[Alucard89]

Personally, I think you are underestimating how useful Agonizing Blast is when it comes to having a solid, ranged DPS potential. Even as a simply Cantrip, Eldritch Blast is easily comparable, and likely far superior to any ranged weapon that a Paladin could get their hands on, due to use Charisma for its attack rolls, and its multiple rays giving you multiple attempts to hit someone, or even hit multiple enemies at range. Sure, at level 5 you have the Extra Attack action, which matches the Eldritch Blast, but when the Eldritch Blast starts upgrading itself afterwards, you start beating out all but a dedicated archer when it comes to your ranged DPS.

Adding Agonizing Blast to this damage, really turns Eldritch Blast into a nice bonus as a Warlock, into a reason to dip the Warlock at all. The Paladin is always going to be a melee character, first and foremost. Its Smites and Smite Spells only function when your fighting in melee, and you don't have the ranged fighting style as an option either. But that doesn't mean that having a ranged attack is not an essential factor that needs to be taken into consideration. There is almost always going to be times in a campaign, where you want to make a ranged attack. Where the enemy is out of reach, or you do not want to give up a superior position to attack them. This is where the damage of the Eldritch Blast, and especially the damage of an Agonizing Blast Eldritch Blast, will come in crucial and is almost guaranteed to be worth that single Paladin or Sorcerer level you are giving up to gain it.

Optimizing isn't just about taking a single roll, and pushing it to the strongest possible extreme you can take it. But also making note of flaws and weaknesses in the build, and seeing if they cannot be shored up without too much being lost from the main strengths of the character. Warlock 2 for Agonizing Blast is 100% worth if you are already going Warlock 1 for Hexblade.

Now, whenever or not Hexblade is worth a dip in the first place... that's an entirely different argument altogether. Especially for a Sorcadin build.

I don't underestimate Agonizing Blast. I just know there are usually already people in party doing range damage when needed. Your role in party is to melee-smite crucial target to the abyss as fast as possible or tank and control a large group of melee enemies (War Caster + BB + Spirit Guardians). Pure Sorcadin doesn't lack range options. Also unless enemy is very fast flying creature- Sorcadin has a lot of options to engage- Fly, Misty Step, Quicken Dimensional Doors, Quicken Hold Spells, Command etc etc.

Pure Paladin have Pegasus in late game to engage flying enemies (best with Haste from Vengeance Pala).

Hexadins will have agonizing blast and a lot of smites to use per encounter if you take 3 short rests per day. However making HexaSorcadin is just like trying to have a apple pie but with cheesecake topping.

Before level 17 your E-Blast will hit for 3d10 + 15. If you also add Hex as bonus action that is +3d6 dmg. That is on average 42 damage.

However at same time your full attack round with IDS on level 11 will have (assuming CHA 20 + PAM) 2d6 + 1d4 + 15 + 3d8 = 38 dmg. While being able to attach Smite to it.

A range option is good to have. But not worth sub-optimal multiclass choices just for that at the cost of cutting down the main power/role of your build/class- which is melee NOVA and spell-casting. Also remember that each Warlock level takes away casting progression from your build as Pact Magic does not add up to slot amount. You also give up higher level slots/Sorc/Pala spells for just good range attack.

Optimization is about making your character best at what it does, making it versatile when needed.

However when you start to try to do everything- you are becoming not optimal for anything.

Same like despite tons of ASI Fighters get- nobody really recommends melee feats on range fighter builds. You can do it- but why? There will probably be a party member that can cover that better.

I have never seen a case or combat when melee front liner was not needed. Even if part of enemies if flying- there is someone who can cover that.

But if you already pic a melee gish powerhouse- make best use of. Don't try to make him Warlock Blaster, Paladin PAM and Suboptimal Sorcadin (5 levels Sorc..) at the same time- focus on one and optimize for it. Don't try to cover all roles, it won't work in real gameplay scenario. Either make Hexadin if you want to also have strong spammable range attack and good slot/invocation progression or Sorcadin to be melee powerhouse with great spellcasting at hand. If you really need that SAD CHA the best is 6/1/13 split, though with AL easy acquired STR items - SAD CHA is really not that important.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Now, whenever or not Hexblade is worth a dip in the first place... that's an entirely different argument altogether. Especially for a Sorcadin build.

I believe you missed a rather critical part of my last post.

My entire argument was based around a single premise, that a character or person had already decided that they wanted to take at least 1 level the Warlock Class, most likely to be able to go for the Hexblade Patron, and give themselves Charisma to Attack and Damage rolls with a Longsword. From there, my argument was that as you already have Eldritch Blast as a Cantrip, and that you have already taken a single level in Warlock for the Hexblade benefits, taking the second level in Warlock in order to be able to access the Agonizing Blast invocation, was therefore the better option for a character build, regardless of whenever or not you were planning on making a Hexadin or a Sorcadinlock triple class build. As this single level additionally level, whilst delaying your progression to other power spikes from the class levels in other builds, is worth what you gain from it. Not simply Agonizing Blast, though it is a very useful ability to gain access to. But also you gain a 2nd Short-Rest Spell Slot, which can help power your Smite's as a Paladin or your Sorcery Points as a Sorcerer, or both if a Sorcadin. As well as a 3rd Spell that you can cast as a Warlock with these short-rest spells, and an additional Invocation, with options ranging from +2 Skill Proficiencies, At-Will Detect Magic, without needing to wait 10 minutes to cast it as a Ritual, or the ability to see in all forms of darkness, even magical darkness.

The entire argument of whenever or not taking a single level of the Warlock in the first place in order to get your hands on the Hexblade class ability to swap your Strength for Charisma when it comes to your melee attacks however, is an entirely different matter that I am not currently in the position to discuss this argument at length. Though personally I believe that the Hexblade class ability is somewhat overrated, especially in games where gaining access to magical items is highly expected, and makes the ease of getting 2 or more Ability Scores to that necessary 20 Point Level, much easier than it otherwise would have been, which in turn allows for greater flexibility in builds that use 2 or more ability scores. Still, there is arguements to be made in its favour, that much I do agree with.

[paladinn]

The campaign with which I am involved is Not AL; and I don't like planning my character progression based on getting magic items that I am not assured of getting. I have no idea what the DM is going to be doling out, or throwing at us. I also have little confidence in my fellow players. Thus my wish for my character to be somewhat-good at practically everything he needs to do.

With PAM I get an "extra attack". With Paladin and HB1, I have heavy armor, good melee and a decent ranged option. With HB2 the ranged gets better. With a few more Paladin levels I get smites, more extra attack (4?), and more. Eventually Divine Soul will get me options for healing and fireball at DS5.

Granted, I may not be completely optimized for any one specific task; but I should be decent-really good at a number of things.

[Corran]

Note that the +2 Cha Half-Elf gets is essentially equivalent to the Feat V.Humans get, by level 4.

I am not sure if the person you are replying to used rolled stats, if so, and depending on the rolled stats, then you are probably right. But this is not correct in the case of point buy. With point buy, the +2 CHA of the halfelf, essentially translates to a +2 on a tertiary stat (probably in dex or wis). Now, once could say that sorcadins don't really need any feats other than warcaster, which you cannot take at 1st level as a vhuman, at least if you are starting paladin for the proficiencies. But I wouldn't agree that an extra feat is as good as a +2 to a tertiary stat. Granted, adding all the other halfelf traits, I'd say we would have more of a fair comparison.

You can grab PAM at 4, or 5 if multiclassing. I would say the PAM in the first few levels is stronger, just about, but then it depends on how valuable Darkvision, an extra skill proficiency, and fey ancestry prove in that period - keeping in mind that sleep is a potent spell at those levels.

Agreed. PAM is strong at low levels but then it will quickly lose value. I'd avoid it, unless I was planning to get sth that boosts it. Something like GWM or IDS for example. For a sorcadin I wouldn't bother with any of these though.

The problem with this is that you need to be able to cast at least one spell before you can take War Caster.

Yep. That's the unfortunate truth. If it wasn't, life would be easier. By caster though I meant arcane caster, or fullcater. Probably should have made it more clear. But in the end, that's why I suggest going paladin 4 before anything else (level 4 paladins can cast spells), so you can have warcaster before you get access the shield spell.

I believe you missed a rather critical part of my last post.

My entire argument was based around a single premise, that a character or person had already decided that they wanted to take at least 1 level the Warlock Class, most likely to be able to go for the Hexblade Patron, and give themselves Charisma to Attack and Damage rolls with a Longsword. From there, my argument was that as you already have Eldritch Blast as a Cantrip, and that you have already taken a single level in Warlock for the Hexblade benefits, taking the second level in Warlock in order to be able to access the Agonizing Blast invocation, was therefore the better option for a character build, regardless of whenever or not you were planning on making a Hexadin or a Sorcadinlock triple class build.

You make a good point. Taking that 2nd warlock level essentially is enough to make you a ranged dpr on top of whatever else your character is, role-wise. And if you are only 1 level away from accomplishing that (or in other words, and as you said, if you have already decided to grab 1 level in warlock), it seems like a waste not to plan for that 2nd level in warlock. And yeah, there are some other benefits too at that level. It's certainly profitable to plan for a well rounded character. The value of AB, that is the value of further boosting your ranged attacks, will depend on how often you will be called to rely on ranged attacks. That does not negate anything I said so far in this answer, it only relates to how often one should plan for this 2nd warlock level. On the surface of things, character level 11 seems like a good point to grab it, cause that's when EB powers up again. But you have to balance this out with what you will be delaying. And it's very hard to do so without knowing more about the build in question. Generally though, I think that levels 11-13 are a good point for taking that 2nd warlock level, always assuming that it is set in stone that we will be taking 1 warlock level in the first place. That's because I would generally want to first prioritize tools that add up to my melee capabilities and then boost the secondary functions of my build. For a sorcadin more specifically, it's also a bit hard to justify, at least for me, prioritizing AB to stuff like fireball and counterspell. Not to mention any 3rd or 4th level sorcerer spells or 3rd level paladin spells on which my build may actually rely upon on a consistent basis (depending on the build, stuff like haste, spitit guardians, hypnotic pattern, etc). Agonizing blast adds power to a secondary function of the build, ie to ranged attacks. We can even say it is the tool that from level 11+ it essentially adds ranged dpr to you roles. Fireball makes you a blaster, counterspell makes you a mage killer (both exaggerations but you get my point), aura of vitality makes you an off-combat healer, etc. Which secondary roles is it better to prioritize? Hard to say without looking the build in question and more importantly the rest of the party. But yes, ideally you want to cover all these roles. But first grab the tools that will make you good at your primary role (melee).

I hope my replies to your (recent) posts don't strike you the wrong way. I am not correcting you, I just catch from sth I generally agree and then I add some of my own opinions on it.

[Aimeryan]

I am not sure if the person you are replying to used rolled stats, if so, and depending on the rolled stats, then you are probably right. But this is not correct in the case of point buy. With point buy, the +2 CHA of the halfelf, essentially translates to a +2 on a tertiary stat (probably in dex or wis). Now, once could say that sorcadins don't really need any feats other than warcaster, which you cannot take at 1st level as a vhuman, at least if you are starting paladin for the proficiencies. But I wouldn't agree that an extra feat is as good as a +2 to a tertiary stat. Granted, adding all the other halfelf traits, I'd say we would have more of a fair comparison.

I'm not following;
Half-Elf: Point buy 15 Cha max, add Half-Elf +2 for 17 Cha. Grab Feat at 4 (or 5).
V.Human: Point buy 15 Cha max, grab Feat. Add +2 for 17 Cha at 4 (or 5).

EDIT: Ah, I see; the V.Human adds +1 to Cha for 16 Cha. So the Half-Elf's +2 translates into +1 Cha vs. Feat, and its odd so the modifier ends up still being +3 for both. You can mitigate this by using a 14 point buy before the +2, so the saved point buy ends up in a different stat as you said.

Yeah, works better when rolling for an even number that the +2 Cha gives +1 mod over V.Human.

[ChiefBigFeather]

It's been 2.5 years since this guide was updated. Xanathar's Guide to Everything drastically changed this build, and it was released 1.5 years ago. I'm pretty sure this is a dead guide at this point.

Not necessarily. Much of the stuff is still quite relevant. The Paladin 2/Sorc x build is mostly outclassed by Sorc x/Hexblade 1 builds though, as the one level of Hexblade offers most of the things the two levels of Paladin do while not delaying your casting progression as much (the main draw of Paladin 2/Sorc X).

You make a good point. Taking that 2nd warlock level essentially is enough to make you a ranged dpr on top of whatever else your character is, role-wise.

Not only that. The 2nd warlock level also provides more spellslots to convert into sorcery points on short rests. Access to Devil's Sight is also pretty good with Hexblade's Curse, GFB and smite. You can get a 33% crit chance per round and a ton of dice :)

If you have invested into Paladin already, your spell level won't be competitive with the CR anyway, the 2nd and maybe 3rd level of Warlock are probably well worth the investment.

[Storyteller_Arc]

I hope my replies to your (recent) posts don't strike you the wrong way. I am not correcting you, I just catch from sth I generally agree and then I add some of my own opinions on it.

... Last I checked I was addressing someone called Alucard89?

[Storyteller_Arc]

Agreed. PAM is strong at low levels but then it will quickly lose value. I'd avoid it, unless I was planning to get sth that boosts it. Something like GWM or IDS for example. For a sorcadin I wouldn't bother with any of these though.

Honestly, I’m not sure this is actually the case?

One of the primary arguments I’ve seen against Polearm Master is that when you start reaching the higher levels, you much stronger and competitive options to replace its bonus action attack, and as we are primarily discussing a Spear & Shield character vs a Longsword & Shield character, the Polearm Master’s extra Opportunity Attack trigger is not as useful it might be in a Sentinel build. And I will agree, that when we are starting to discuss the much later levels of the game, such as level’s 11+, when the Cantrips get their second power-up, the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack is starting to become less and less appealing with every level afterwards.

But, that’s only after we’ve played through half of the game already. As up until that point, I would argue that the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack is still a competitive option for any Sorcadin build that is going more than 2 Levels in a Paladin. During this discussion, there has been primarily two replacements for the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack: Spiritual Weapon. Flat-Out replacing the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action attack with a 1d8 damage die that can be up to 60ft away from you at a time, except you cannot Smite with this attack. Or Quicken Spell, which, I will 100% agree, is a very valid, and much more flexible replacement to the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack.

Here’s the problem, however. Both of these replacements drain resources that you can only recover by taking a Long Rest. Spiritual Weapon locks you into the Divine Soul Sorcerer, which is a powerful Sorcerer Origin I agree, but it is not guaranteed to be the best of the best, and both options require at level 3 levels in Sorcerer in order to be able to access them at all. At this point, you can only use Quicken Spell once per day, and you can only cast Spiritual Weapon three times per day, lasting for a minute, and assuming you don’t use any of the 2nd level slots for your other 2nd Level Spells. Which you do have a rather strong collection of. Meanwhile, the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack will never run out. It uses no more resources than a Cantrip or a normal Attack Action and still gives you a solid 1d4+Ability Modifier attack.

I am not going to get into a debate about at what level does the resources you expend in order to take advantage of your bonus action without using the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack, as honestly, it is very campaign and playstyle specific and hard to discuss from an optimization standpoint. But I do believe it is also an important consideration to take into account when discussing this point.

If you are taking 4 levels in Paladin in order to avoid missing out on the first ASI, then that means you are level 7 by the time you pick up one of the ‘replacements’. If you have Polearm Master, then you are likely going to want to pick up Paladin 5 in order to pick up Extra Attack, and take full advantage of Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack. Then, you will want to pick up Paladin 6, because Aura of Protection is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, and you would be insane not to pick it up right from the start. This pushes back the 3 levels of Sorcerer all the way to level 9, only one level away from the halfway point of level 10. Meaning that you have been taking advantage of Polearm Master for almost half of your entire play career, even without gaining some form of attack augmentation, such as Greater Weapon Mastery, or Improved Divine Smite.

Therefore, I would argue, that on the traditional 6/14 Sorcadin build, a Spear & Shield Polearm Master build, is most likely superior to a Longsword & Shield built with a different feat, or potentially no feat entirely and that if you decide to go for a more Paladin focused Sorcadin build, the Polearm Master serves you even better than other options. Heck, even a 7/13 build can really leverage Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack if you go for an Oathbreaker Paladin.

[Deathtongue]

The value of Polearm Master really depends on your bonus action/reaction clog. If you're doing longer workdays, it's gold.

However, for shorter workdays, such as for AL... I'm playing a Devotion Paladin 6 / Wild Sorcerer X. I have plenty of competition for my bonus action, whether it's activating magic items or casting bonus action spells or casting Quickened spells. Same for my reaction; Counterspell and Shield. I've intentionally eaten attacks I could've blocked with Shield just to keep my reaction available for Counterspell.

After total level 10 or so, it's actually pretty hard to burn through all of your resources! For example, a typical four-round sequence for me for a challenging fight is:

1) Action: Sacred Weapon -> Bonus Action: Wrathful Smite.
2) Quickened Dimension Door to take the Battlemaster Fighter with me -> Full attack with GMW. Save reaction for a Counterspell if another caster is in range.
3) Quickened Haste -> Three GMW Attacks, drop some smite action on it.

For less challenging fights, I've Twinned a Protection from Evil and Good or even a Greater Invis.

Since it's AL, if I'm REALLY challenged for resources I've dipped into my Ring of Spell Storing for extra shields or my stock of scrolls.

[Corran]

Honestly, I’m not sure this is actually the case?

One of the primary arguments I’ve seen against Polearm Master is that when you start reaching the higher levels, you much stronger and competitive options to replace its bonus action attack, and as we are primarily discussing a Spear & Shield character vs a Longsword & Shield character, the Polearm Master’s extra Opportunity Attack trigger is not as useful it might be in a Sentinel build. And I will agree, that when we are starting to discuss the much later levels of the game, such as level’s 11+, when the Cantrips get their second power-up, the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack is starting to become less and less appealing with every level afterwards.

But, that’s only after we’ve played through half of the game already. As up until that point, I would argue that the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack is still a competitive option for any Sorcadin build that is going more than 2 Levels in a Paladin. During this discussion, there has been primarily two replacements for the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack: Spiritual Weapon. Flat-Out replacing the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action attack with a 1d8 damage die that can be up to 60ft away from you at a time, except you cannot Smite with this attack. Or Quicken Spell, which, I will 100% agree, is a very valid, and much more flexible replacement to the Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack.

…

Therefore, I would argue, that on the traditional 6/14 Sorcadin build, a Spear & Shield Polearm Master build, is most likely superior to a Longsword & Shield built with a different feat, or potentially no feat entirely and that if you decide to go for a more Paladin focused Sorcadin build, the Polearm Master serves you even better than other options. Heck, even a 7/13 build can really leverage Polearm Master’s Bonus Action Attack if you go for an Oathbreaker Paladin.

Quickening a spell or a cantrip is more powerful than using your bonus action with spiritual weapon (on a turn by turn basis). That's why it costs more resources. It's not something you can do every round (unless you are playing 1 or 2 deadly+++ encounters per adventuring day). And it's not something you really need to do every round (unless it didn't cost anything, in which case I'd say go for it). Optimizing your action economy, in a sense of finding things with which to fill it up, is certainly useful, but it's not an actual goal in itself. If you are to do it, you have to consider if what you are getting out of it is worth what you are paying for it. And not just pay anything just to get an option that can utilize your bonus action or reaction. In the case of PAM, I don't think that what it gets you is worth spending a feat on it. Not unless I can get some synergy out of it that makes it worth it. IDS and GWM are the first things that have synergy with PAM and come to mind. That's not to say that if I had either of those I would certainly make sure to include PAM as well, but I would certainly consider it. But PAM on its own, for a feat? On a sorcadin? No deal as far as I am concerned. Not because PAM is a bad feat in this occasion, but it's not good enough (meaning I think there are better ways to spend your ASI's/feats with). The fact that it has overlap for when I want to quicken a spell or use an action not attacking (or the fact that it has no synergy with gfb) does not help either.

Not only that. The 2nd warlock level also provides more spellslots to convert into sorcery points on short rests. Access to Devil's Sight is also pretty good with Hexblade's Curse, GFB and smite. You can get a 33% crit chance per round and a ton of dice :)

Agreed. There are some more benefits. But I suspect (because of a previous discussion we had on another thread) that we judge those benefits differently. I think we like sorcadin for different reasons. You prefer its offensive qualities, while I prefer its defensive ones.

[Deathtongue]

Agreed. There are some more benefits. But I suspect (because of a previous discussion we had on another thread) that we judge those benefits differently. I think we like sorcadin for different reasons. You prefer its offensive qualities, while I prefer its defensive ones.

I think it's really hard, if not impossible, to beat the offensive capabilities of Quicken Spell. Sacred Weapon/Extra Attack + Quickened Haste/Greater Invis/Dimension Door has led to a lot of beatdowns. That metamagic effect really makes or breaks the build and lets me do things even DPR hardcases like the Battlemaster and Zealot Barbarian struggle to do.

[Storyteller_Arc]

meaning I think there are better ways to spend your ASI's/feats with

Like what?

At 1st Level Paladin. Even if you are planning on going Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14. What is the best use of the Variant Human's Bonus Feat?

Resilient (Con)? Sure, it gives you Proficiency with Con Saves, but you are likely going to be picking up War Caster anyway, which gives you Advantedge on Concentration Saves, and that's the main benefit of getting a good Concentration Save. And as we can't actually pick up War Caster at level 1 without DM Fiat... there isn't much more of a discussion about what is the best feat for a Variant Human Sorcadin to take his bonus feat on. Its either Resilient (Con), or Polearm Master

And sure, there's nothing wrong with favouring the Sorcadin's Defence over their Offence, but picking up a significant boost to their Offensives abilities for little to no cost at all sounds like a very fair trade to me.

[Corran]

I think it's really hard, if not impossible, to beat the offensive capabilities of Quicken Spell. Sacred Weapon/Extra Attack + Quickened Haste/Greater Invis/Dimension Door has led to a lot of beatdowns. That metamagic effect really makes or breaks the build and lets me do things even DPR hardcases like the Battlemaster and Zealot Barbarian struggle to do.

I think that the quickened metamagic is one of the very few things that make sorcadins excel as well. Meaning, sorcadins do get access to many nice things, but quickened spell is one of these things that really pay off. I am very hesitant to narrow it down to ''the offensive capabilities of quicken'', because that makes me think of quickening catrips, which for sure is a benefit but I don't think it as sth terribly important or efficient (excluding edge cases). I know that this isn't the example you gave, so I guess I am nitpicking here.

I agree that quicken is great in the general way your example implies. That is, quicken is great when it allows you to overload your action economy in a very efficient manner. If I am playing the GWM dpr devotion sorcadin, then using quicken to double the impact of my buffing round (eg sacred weapon plus quickened greater invisibility) is great, and imo it is enough to justify that a dpr spends its first turn in combat buffing instead of attacking (that is because the combined buffing is substantial). Another example where quicken would shine could be sth like this. I am in front of a high priority target that I really want to bring down fast (smite), but I also have a good shot at a fireball for taking out or hurting lots of other enemies. Both are good options, meaning I don't want to miss out on attack opportunities against the high priority single target, but I also want to deal damage with a fireball to the rest of the enemies before they either disperse or engage my allies or me (in which case I would risk friendly damage). Quicken again shines here, because I do get to do both, and because both things actually were important. But this value of quickened (and if I my be so bold, the true value of quicken), does not restrict itself to attack minded strategies. Quicken a defensive self buff or a cc spell can be equally important if we take different sorcadins. For example, if I play an oathbreaker or a conquest sorcadin, quickening a web just after a (mostly) successful use of the fear related channel divinity options, could be of great importance (in a similar way rushing a first round fireball would be in one of my previous examples). Or quickening a blur when I don't want to spend actions on not attacking, probably because I am engaged with a big bad that I want to smite, and at the same time I am about to be on the other end of attacks that have the potential to deal me a lot of damage.

Quicken aside, which I agree that it can be great, when I speak about defensive oriented vs offensive oriented sorcadins, I think of it a bit like that. An offense oriented sorcadin is not very different to a vengeance paladin. They perform very similarly. One just trades a bit of this for a bit of that. A defense oriented sorcadin can push its tankiness to much better levels than those of a singleclass paladin. Sure, they trade things to achieve that, it's not free. But the point is that they can be built in this way that pushes their defensive abilities through the roof. Now, that's not always a good thing, but if it's really important to boost the defense of your paladin (regardless of the oath), then adding sorcerer levels is a very efficient (probably the most efficient) way to go. While if you want to play an attack oriented paladin, you can just play a vengeance paladin. If you are set on another oath (such as devotion, as in your example) for rp reasons for example, then sure, adding sorcerer levels helps a lot (that's mainly because of what you described, ie how quicken helps with action economy). To push it a bit more, I'll say this as well (though I admit that this is not something I can easily back up, call it intuition/experience, and I could be wrong). A defense oriented sorcadin can tank better than an attack oriented sorcadin can kill, if that makes any sense.

[Corran]

Like what?

At 1st Level Paladin. Even if you are planning on going Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14. What is the best use of the Variant Human's Bonus Feat?

Resilient (Con)? Sure, it gives you Proficiency with Con Saves, but you are likely going to be picking up War Caster anyway, which gives you Advantedge on Concentration Saves, and that's the main benefit of getting a good Concentration Save. And as we can't actually pick up War Caster at level 1 without DM Fiat... there isn't much more of a discussion about what is the best feat for a Variant Human Sorcadin to take his bonus feat on. Its either Resilient (Con), or Polearm Master

And sure, there's nothing wrong with favouring the Sorcadin's Defence over their Offence, but picking up a significant boost to their Offensives abilities for little to no cost at all sounds like a very fair trade to me.

You are assuming variant human, I am not. Lets assume that's the case though.
In a void? Lucky. It can be used for saves, concentration and for negating crits (and for skill checks, and though this is my favorite reason for picking this feat, it wouldn't make much of a difference on a typical sorcadin). Negating crits wont happen that often, granted. But... when it happens, I will most likely have lucky points available to negate them. And for a high AC tank (but with just ok hp), that's something very useful. The reason I will most likely have the luck points to spare for crits, is because unless I am very unlucky, I wont have to burst through my luck points. My luck points will be there mainly for when I fail against asave or with my concentration checks. This wont happen very often, because I will be good at both. The fact that I am good at both, means that my lucky rerolls are very meaningful, because I have a good chance at succeeding on it. Essentially, lucky is just another defensive layer, which I would appreciate on a sorcadin, because a sorcadin does not have to rely exclusively on it, and that pairs well with the limited number of lucky rolls. (it's a defensive burst, loosely similar to how smite is an offensive burst; it wont be sth you will have to constantly rely upon, but when you need it, it will be very good to have it).

Alert and resilient are both good options that would tempt me (certainly more than PAM). Depending on the size of the group, I think that inspiring leader has the potential to be the best choice. In fact, if playing in a large group, I would probably pick vhuman just so I can squeeze inspiring leader (also, against popular belief, I'd say that it's a feat which is better to have from early on).

Edit (bolded part): We disagree about how much of an actual boost PAM is to the offensive abilities of a sorcadin. I don't think it's a significant boost.

[Fryy]

I agree that quicken is great in the general way your example implies. That is, quicken is great when it allows you to overload your action economy in a very efficient manner. If I am playing the GWM dpr devotion sorcadin, then using quicken to double the impact of my buffing round (eg sacred weapon plus quickened greater invisibility) is great, and imo it is enough to justify that a dpr spends its first turn in combat buffing instead of attacking (that is because the combined buffing is substantial).

Wait, there is no 'Sacred Weapon'. Did you mean 'Sacred Flame' or 'Spiritual Weapon'?

EDIT: Nevermind. I see its a Devotion Paladin feature.

[Benny89]

snip

To follow up on what @Corran wrote. There are two ways to make offensive Sorcadin:

1. GWM Devotion - here you offset -5 from GWM using Sacred Weapon. With 20 CHA that is +5 to hit, so you have 0 penalty for using GWM. Sacred Weapon takes action to cast though. But it works for 10 turns. You want to pair that up with something that will give you advantage, hence where Quicken spell comes: you can use Greater Invisibility to pair it up with GWM, giving yourself advantage and mitigate whole penalty. Minus is: it takes turn to establish fully and till you get to Greater Invisibility- there is really nothing else you can use unless you go for Shadow Sorcerer, then you can use Quicken Darkness using Sorc points to get Darkvision/Darkness combo paired with Sacred Weapon. Problem with Devotion is it's ASI heavy. If you start as Vuman and make 6/14 build: 1st level - GWM (you will already have +3 to hit, so only -2 to hit with GWM, so +3 on level 1 with 16 STR), 4th level - War Caster, 10th level +2 CHA, 14 level +2 CHA. So it takes quite a lot of max him.

2. Vengeance Sword n Shield. More straight foward build. You have access to advantage on demand vs one target, but that is enough as your main job is to usually just delete main threat anyway. This build also gets great spells that will free your Sorcerer slots: Misty Step and Hold Person. Also you get Hunter's Mark which will work great till you start getting your quicken cantrips. This build utilize for concentration a damage spells like: Holy Weapon, Shadow Blade or Spirit Guardians. Your main combo is to check what is best option to use for situation:

1. Boss fight- if it's dim light or darkness: Shadow Blade upcasted and proceed to delete. Advantage + first turn Nova.
2. Boss Fight - it's not dim light or darkness: Bonus Action: Vow of Enmity, Action: Holy Weapon. Setup, but next turn you start destroying boss.
3. A lot of melee enemies (maybe even boss is surrounded by them?): VoW of Enmity, Action: Spirit Guardians.
4. A lot of melee enemies, no Boss: Quicken Spirit Guardians, dive into them.

This build has advantage (literally) of coming online faster and having access to VoE for bosses which is really really strong. Level 1: War Caster (best) or RES (CON), level 4: +2 CHA, level 10: +2 CHA. Build completed. On level 14 take Shield Master.

Both are very good at their main job, though Vengeance is more tanky thanks to Shield and Shield Master later (you also have higher Aura bonuses faster) and really doesn't lose any DPR because upcasted Shadow Blade can deal 4d8-5d8 damage alone and if you crit on it + Smite: that is easly 20d8 dmg from one attack.... 90 on average from that crit alone. For Vengeance it's best to pair it up with Divine Soul as you don't need Darkness from Shadow to have advantage when needed. And upcasted Spirit Guardians are just brutal.

So yeah: GWM Devotion/Shadow Sorcerer or Sword n Shield Vengeance/Divine Soul are both best build for offense, though Vengeance one is still on tanky side, so it's best of both worlds really.

It's funny how Devotion (light, good, mercy) works best with Shadow Magic while Vengeace (revange, rage, punishment, merciless) works best with Divine Soul :D. Light/Dark vs Dark/Light.

[Corran]

Wait, there is no 'Sacred Weapon' (typo, I understand). Did you mean 'Sacred Flame' or 'Spiritual Weapon'?

It's one of the channel divinity options of the oath of devotion. You spend an action and for one minute you add your charisma modifier to your attacks. That's considered to be the main benefit of it at least.

To follow up on what @Corran wrote. There are two ways to make offensive Sorcadin:

1. GWM Devotion -

I think GWM vengeance is competitive with #1. The jist of it, and making a broad assumption that we will be relying on bless when we don't use VoE, and on haste when we will be using VoE, is that you can quicken bless (which will earn you one round of attacks), and that you can twin haste (which is where the real money is, assuming you have an ally who can make good use of it). Granted, this build has a lot of disadvantages. Mostly that it takes a long time to get both of the benefits I detailed (9 levels for quicken bless and 12 levels for twinned haste, or the exact opposite, depending on if we went with 6 or 9 paladin levels). And it is also very demanding on sorcery points. But all in all, I think it's about as good as if we were to go with the devotion oath instead, at least as far as the attacking capabilities of the build are concerned). A big part of the comparison comes down to how much value you can get out of twinning haste. Far from my favorite sorcadin build, but I am just mentioning it as an option.

It's funny how Devotion (light, good, mercy) works best with Shadow Magic while Vengeace (revange, rage, punishment, merciless) works best with Divine Soul :D. Light/Dark vs Dark/Light.

Devotion/shadow is a bit weird. But I think vengeance/divine soul plays well. That's probably because I think that oath of vengeance fits nicely a religious zealot type of character (just my opinion, don't mean to argue about the tenets), and so could divine soul.

[Storyteller_Arc]

You are assuming variant human, I am not. Lets assume that's the case though.

Well, the entire discussion was about what is Superior. Polearm Master Variant Human, or a Half-Elf with no Feat. And thus far I haven't been convinced that a Half-Elf is superior to the Variant Human start.

In a void? Lucky.

Hmmmm, Lucky is a pretty decent feat I will admit, and as a generic safety valve, I fully understand its value. 3/Long rest having the ability to reroll a saving throw, or to ignore a critical hit, is a very useful ability. Still, the lower levels than to be much less dangerous than the higher ones, especially when it comes to actual saving throws you need to use it against? And well, we are a Paladin after all. We have the highest saving throws out of any class in the game thanks to our Aura of Protection, so I don't think we are making as good of use as the feat as a different class might off. Plus, a Sorcadin is typically a very defensive

Alert and resilient are both good options that would tempt me (certainly more than PAM). Depending on the size of the group, I think that inspiring leader has the potential to be the best choice. In fact, if playing in a large group, I would probably pick vhuman just so I can squeeze inspiring leader (also, against popular belief, I'd say that it's a feat which is better to have from early on).

Really? You would be tempted to pick up Inspiring Leader, which is pretty fantastic in the early levels, but really dies off in the later levels. But you wouldn't pick up PAM, which keeps going strong for over half of the game, assuming you even get all the way to level 20? Resilient is decent, but just seems redundant to me if we're going Warcaster, and Alert... is nice and all, but I really don't see it as being the best option out of all possible feats. Its a bonus, not something we actively seek out in order to bring our builds to their maximum potential.

We disagree about how much of an actual boost PAM is to the offensive abilities of a sorcadin. I don't think it's a significant boost.

It is. It is an incredibly potent boost to our offensive abilities. It is basically Extra Attack at level 1 instead of level 5, and we don't even get a potential equal to it in terms of action economy until level 7 at the earliest, possibly level 9 in its place, and even then we typically won't be able to fully make use of Quickened Spell across multiple different encounters until we're about 5, 6 levels in Sorcerer, which is a level range from 10-12 as a minimum, putting us at having gone through half of the game making full use of the bonus action attack

Sure, we might not work so well unless we pick up Greater Weapon Master or Improved Divine Smite, or Aura of Hate. But we do get Dueling, for that +2 damage with the Bonus Action attack, and we get that at level 2, which is a pretty damn nice bonus to our damage potential, and whilst it might fall off later in the game, we always have it to fall back on if we end up drained of resources or unable to casts spells, such as being afflicted with Silence or something similar. Or heck, if an ally has used Hold Person/Hold Monster on the boss, what's better than having 2 Crit-Smites? Having 3 Crit-Smites!

[Alucard89]

It is. It is an incredibly potent boost to our offensive abilities. It is basically Extra Attack at level 1 instead of level 5, and we don't even get a potential equal to it in terms of action economy until level 7 at the earliest, possibly level 9 in its place, and even then we typically won't be able to fully make use of Quickened Spell across multiple different encounters until we're about 5, 6 levels in Sorcerer, which is a level range from 10-12 as a minimum, putting us at having gone through half of the game making full use of the bonus action attack

Sure, we might not work so well unless we pick up Greater Weapon Master or Improved Divine Smite, or Aura of Hate. But we do get Dueling, for that +2 damage with the Bonus Action attack, and we get that at level 2, which is a pretty damn nice bonus to our damage potential, and whilst it might fall off later in the game, we always have it to fall back on if we end up drained of resources or unable to casts spells, such as being afflicted with Silence or something similar. Or heck, if an ally has used Hold Person/Hold Monster on the boss, what's better than having 2 Crit-Smites? Having 3 Crit-Smites!

Sorry but that is not true. PAM is suboptimal for Sorcadin builds, unless you go 12 Levels into Paladin, but then you are hardly real Srocadin, it's more of Paladin with Sorc dip at this point.

Dueling +2 damage is totally not worth for Paladin as later in levels 12+ that +2 damage is nothing significant compare to your Smites. It's good DPR increase in low levels, but the higher you go- the less Dueling matters. Defense +1 AC however matters whole game, and the higher AC you have- the more every +1 to AC matters.

You also overestimating Quicken Hold combo. By the time you will have Hold Monster-most bosses you will face will have Legendary Resistance. While Quicken Hold Person is nice, it's really situational in most cases. Also if you really do land Quicken Hold- it's better to Quicken BB for another multipled 2d8-3d8 bonus damage than using your PAM extra attack.

Thing is for 2/18 and 6/14 builds PAM is just not worth. When you want to do NOVA- you are better quickening BB on enemy. If you need during fight just steady DPR- Spiritual Weapon will do more damage than PAM extra attack. And you can upcasted it from level 4 for nice bonus attack of 2d8 +5 vs 1d4 + 5 from Spear. And it's non Cocentration. Sure it's resource, but then again- just another reason to not pick PAM.

If you go 12 levels in Paladin, sure go for PAM, because IDS and more ASI makes it very good choice. But for classic Sorcadin builds PAM is just not necessary at all.

Not to mention a good utility of being just GWM or Sword n Shield: you are not tied to one category of weapons.

What does it mean? Well, you can find magic/unique 2h swords, great axes, maules, halberds, longswords, maces, axes, war hammers, short swords etc etc. during your adventures. Being GWM or Sword n Shield means you have much more variety of using new found weapons. While PAM basicelly makes you only want to find spears/staffs or polearms. So unless your DM just crafts magic weapon for each players- there are much more good magic weapons. And if you look in books, there isn't much unique PAM weapons. Just something to think about.

[Deathtongue]

Here's my thing with PAM: you already have a lot of competition for your bonus action (and reaction). PAM's utility goes down as the game goes on just because you have more resources and uses for your bonus action. I have gone full deadly and boss fights without using my bonus attack from GMW or Quickened Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade. And the number of fights where this seems to be so goes UP as I gain levels, not down.

It's a feat that starts out really strong, then tanks at around character level 10 or so.

If I was playing a game that lasted a long time between long rests, then yes, I could see a use for PAM. But even in Season 8 of Adventurer's League in which we have more Hard/Deadly encounters between long rests than previous seasons, I stopped feeling pinched for resources at around, well, level 10.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Dueling +2 damage is totally not worth for Paladin as later in levels 12+ that +2 damage is nothing significant compare to your Smites. It's good DPR increase in low levels, but the higher you go- the less Dueling matters. Defense +1 AC however matters whole game, and the higher AC you have- the more every +1 to AC matters.

I stopped feeling pinched for resources at around, well, level 10.

So what you're saying then. Is that Polearm Master is the best start for a Sorcadin build during levels 1-10, possibly 1-12, and then it's only afterwards, when you get into the higher levels, that Polearm Master starts becoming a suboptimal choice?

Which means that Polearm Master is the optimal choice, as for 50+% of your levels, it is going to be the best way for you to play as a Sorcadin, and for the other levels, it is still giving you the options to use it, which highly depend on the type and style of game & campaign that you are playing in and how often you burn through your resources?

I mean, there's a lot of talk about how Polearm Master is a bad choice at levels 13-20, that Polearm Master is suboptimal once you get 5, 6, 7 levels in Sorcerer following your 4-6 levels in Paladin. But that doesn't negate the fact that until you actually reach that point. I have seen zero arguments against Polearm Master' use during these lower levels. Which, are far as I can tell, looking at the fact that most games start in the lower levels, and that most games don't actually reach level 20, makes for a very compelling argument as to why Polearm Master is the optimal choice.

[strangebloke]

So what you're saying then. Is that Polearm Master is the best start for a Sorcadin build during levels 1-10, possibly 1-12, and then it's only afterwards, when you get into the higher levels, that Polearm Master starts becoming a suboptimal choice?

Which means that Polearm Master is the optimal choice, as for 50+% of your levels, it is going to be the best way for you to play as a Sorcadin, and for the other levels, it is still giving you the options to use it, which highly depend on the type and style of game & campaign that you are playing in and how often you burn through your resources?

I mean, there's a lot of talk about how Polearm Master is a bad choice at levels 13-20, that Polearm Master is suboptimal once you get 5, 6, 7 levels in Sorcerer following your 4-6 levels in Paladin. But that doesn't negate the fact that until you actually reach that point. I have seen zero arguments against Polearm Master' use during these lower levels. Which, are far as I can tell, looking at the fact that most games start in the lower levels, and that most games don't actually reach level 20, makes for a very compelling argument as to why Polearm Master is the optimal choice.

PAM honestly is just not that great for a sorcadin at level 5 or higher. It's outcompeted by all of the following feat/ASI options:

• Warcaster: Opens up casting options, give you terrifyingly powerful OAs, and makes holding concentration a lot easier.
• Resilient:CON: Gives extra HP and makes concentration a lot easier.
• +2 CHA: +1 to all your saves, all your parties saves, +1 to your spell DC, +1 to your Sacred Weapon.... Sorry, why are we still talking?
• GWM: nearly doubles your damage on attacks where you use it, and often gives you a BA attack that's better than anything you can do with PAM.

Now, you can get GWM and PAM... but PAM isn't actually granting you that much at that point. like...

• GWM and PAM: [1d10+3 + 10 + 0.5]*2 +1d4+3+10 + 0.8 =54.3
• just GWM: [2d6 + 3 + 10 + 1.4]*2 = 42.8
• just PAM: [1d10+3 + 0.5]*2 +1d4+3 + 0.8 =24.3 (statistically speaking, this will catch up with other PAM+GWM when the enemy AC is 13 higher than your attack bonus.)

That's a 25% marginal damage increase on rounds where you don't get the GWM bonus attack. On rounds where you do get the GWM bonus attack, the GWM-only build comes out ahead.

• GWM and PAM: [1d10+3 + 10 + 0.5]*2 +1d4+3+10 + 0.8 =54.3
• just GWM: [2d6 + 3 + 10 + 1.4]*3 = 64.2

So yeah, an entire feat, and you end up a little bit ahead on rounds where you don't crit or kill anything or do anything with your bonus action, and behind on all the other rounds. There's benefit in OAs of course, but TBH I'd much sooner take sentinel or warcaster for that purpose. Unlike a fighter or a Barbarian, the Sorcadin has a lot of good bonus action options and a ton of good places to spend an ASI. Just pumping resources into sword-swinging doesn't seem that good. I just can't think of a build where I'd have room for it.

In a 6/14 split, PAM would be passable for the early levels. But in those early levels, you're not a sorcadin. You'r just a paladin.
In a 2/14 split, you just can't use PAM at all because PAM requires an attack and you'd much prefer to just cast booming blade.

[Storyteller_Arc]

PAM honestly is just not that great for a sorcadin at level 5 or higher. It's outcompeted by all of the following feat/ASI options:

• Warcaster: Opens up casting options, give you terrifyingly powerful OAs, and makes holding concentration a lot easier.
• Resilient:CON: Gives extra HP and makes concentration a lot easier.
• +2 CHA: +1 to all your saves, all your parties saves, +1 to your spell DC, +1 to your Sacred Weapon... Sorry, why are we still talking?
• GWM: nearly doubles your damage on attacks where you use it, and often gives you a BA attack that's better than anything you can do with PAM.

• Warcaster: Can't pick it up at level 1.
• Resilient:CON: Only gives bonus HP if your Con was odd, and whilst it helps with Concentration, Warcaster does better, and picking up both instead of ASI's is very late-game material if happening at all.
• +2 CHA: Is an ASI, not a feat.
• GWM: Requires you to use a two-handed weapon, so you lose the +2 AC from using a shield, and its bonus action attack is inferior to PAM's reliability. 1d4 vs 1d10 or 2d6 is a loss yes. But 2d4, 3d4, vs 1d10 or 2d6 is a much more equal comparison. Add in duelling, so its 2d4+4, 3d4+6? And it just gets even better. Though GWN does have Greater Weapon Fighting Style as well.

In a 6/14 split, PAM would be passable for the early levels. But in those early levels, you're not a sorcadin. Your just a paladin.

And? You still need to play through those 6 levels as a Paladin first, and the Spear & Sheild Variant Human seems to be a superior choice than Longsword & Shield or Greatsword wielding Half-Elf Paladin to me. As for the 2/18 combo... eh, I think the Hexblade Warlock is better for the 2. Sure, you don't get Smite, but you get CHA to attack and damage rolls, Eldritch/Agnozing Blast, and the Hexblade Curse as well.

[Corran]

Well, the entire discussion was about what is Superior. Polearm Master Variant Human, or a Half-Elf with no Feat. And thus far I haven't been convinced that a Half-Elf is superior to the Variant Human start.

For most builds I would say the human, because an extra feat tends to be more useful than a few racial features and two extra points at a tertiary stat. For a S&B sorcadin with aura of protection, who does not really need any feats other than warcaster, it's a bit of a dilemma for me. And while I may have some clear opinions about what feats I would prefer for the extra feat in the case of vhuman, ultimately, the difference will be miniscule. Not because I don't think that some choices are better than others, but because whatever the feat, it wont really make much of a difference. It wont make or break your build. It's certainly within the bounds of what we'd call optimization, but it's very much just the fine details of it.

Hmmmm, Lucky is a pretty decent feat I will admit, and as a generic safety valve, I fully understand its value. 3/Long rest having the ability to reroll a saving throw, or to ignore a critical hit, is a very useful ability. Still, the lower levels than to be much less dangerous than the higher ones, especially when it comes to actual saving throws you need to use it against? And well, we are a Paladin after all. We have the highest saving throws out of any class in the game thanks to our Aura of Protection, so I don't think we are making as good of use as the feat as a different class might off. Plus, a Sorcadin is typically a very defensive

The fact that we are already good at saves and concentration is what makes me think that sorcadins can make good use of lucky. Lucky is pretty bad as a first line of defense. If a barbarian or fighter wants to boost the wisdom saves, and they pick lucky instead of resilient (probably because lucky is a bit more versatile), then they made a bad choice. Better example. If I am playing a cleric and I want to boost my concentration, and I pick lucky instead of warcaster or resilient, again, bad choice. Etc. That's because of two reasons. Firstly, because we have only 3 luck points, and 3 rerolls wont be enough when I will be failing a decent percent of the time. Secondly because the value of the reroll depends on you success chance. To put it simply, the value of being able to reroll at a 50% success chance is better than if my success chance is only 5%. A sorcadin with aura of protection and warcaster, has good chances to succeed with saves and concentration, so that means that it wont be often that we will be out of luck points when we'd need one. That relates with the 'negating criticals' part, which for a sorcadin it has some significance, since a sorcadin relies little on hp for tanking. And what also adds value to these rerolls, is that they have a good chance of turning the outcome, since we will ha a good chance at succeeding at them.

Now that I think about it, I'd actually say that lucky is strictly better than resilient for the reasons I mentioned above (always assuming warcaster and aura of protection in play).

Really? You would be tempted to pick up Inspiring Leader, which is pretty fantastic in the early levels, but really dies off in the later levels. But you wouldn't pick up PAM, which keeps going strong for over half of the game, assuming you even get all the way to level 20? Resilient is decent, but just seems redundant to me if we're going Warcaster, and Alert... is nice and all, but I really don't see it as being the best option out of all possible feats. Its a bonus, not something we actively seek out in order to bring our builds to their maximum potential.

I have a very different view on inspiring leader, and I'll tell you why. It's true, that inspiring leader is at its strongest at the lower levels. That does not mean that it does not have its place even at the highest level, and it also does not mean that it does not scale well. At the first few levels, inspiring leader is... I don't want to say unreasonably good, but let's say that its value is unexpectedly high for what you would expect from a feat. At these levels, more than anything else I can think of, it can be the difference bwteen a TPK and a triumph. Generally, a low level party where someone took inspiring leader, has already a significant advantage to overcome what the DM has in stock, simply because of just that one feat. What is unreasonable in my opinion, is to expect this feat to keep up with its initial value as the game progresses. It certainly drops off, but look at where it started first. At higher levels, inspiring leader will rarely be the difference between a TPK and a win. But it can be the difference between taking a short rest or not, it can affect how much resources you must spend on healing, it can influence whether the group continues or calls it a day. And it plays its part in helping you win encounters. Just because it's not a last resort option like death ward for example (which a lot of people would call a real difference maker, probably because its impact is easier to notice?; it's a good spell for sure), does not mean that it does not have its place. It's place in the game is to prevent you from having to resort to things like death ward, healing words, etc. And imo it does that really well. Just look at the total amount of temp hp it grants during the adventuring day, say for a party of 5 or 6.

Regarding what I said in the beginning of this post, about details of optimization, I think that if our vhuman sorcadin (aura of protection, planning for warcaster) is part of a large enough group (off the top of my head, I'd say 5 or more), not taking inspiring leader as the starting feat is a huge missed opportunity.

It is. It is an incredibly potent boost to our offensive abilities. It is basically Extra Attack at level 1 instead of level 5, and we don't even get a potential equal to it in terms of action economy until level 7 at the earliest, possibly level 9 in its place, and even then we typically won't be able to fully make use of Quickened Spell across multiple different encounters until we're about 5, 6 levels in Sorcerer, which is a level range from 10-12 as a minimum, putting us at having gone through half of the game making full use of the bonus action attack

Making sure that you use every action available to you, is not necessarily the optimal thing to do. More often than not it will be, but not always. For example, if a gfb allows me to deal more average damage than an attack sequence that uses my bonus action, I wont prefer the attack sequence just because it used my bonus action while the gfb option did not. I wont necessarily prioritize spells that use my bonus action (like animated objects, animate dead, etc) to spells that don't. Don't get me wrong, trying to find ways to fill your action economy is not wrong, and most of the times it will be the optimal thing to do. But our ultimate goal is not to ''optimize'' the action economy. The goal is to optimize the result of our turn, and this does not necessarily go through filling up our action economy.

Or you can think of it like that. If I get something that allows me to use my bonus action with it, and I didn't have any competition for my bonus action, that does not automatically increase the value of that something I picked. But if I there is competition for my bonus actions, then this competition takes away some value from the thing I picked and which allowed me to use my bonus action with it.

Sure, we might not work so well unless we pick up Greater Weapon Master or Improved Divine Smite, or Aura of Hate. But we do get Dueling, for that +2 damage with the Bonus Action attack, and we get that at level 2, which is a pretty damn nice bonus to our damage potential, and whilst it might fall off later in the game, we always have it to fall back on...

It's not only that we are missing IDS or GWM or something else. It's also that we have already some uses for our reaction and perhaps for our bonus action as well, and this diminishes the value of this feat.
It's also that we are more likely to cast spells during combat than for example a paladin or a fighter would, and that takes turns away from using our bonus action attacks, so again, that diminishes the value of PAM for us.
It's also the fact, that unlike paladins, for which extra attack is the only option to use a weapon, we have a very good alternative in the gfb cantrip, which again does not combine with PAM. And this will also take several rounds away from taking the attack action (because gfb's secondary damage is easy to trigger).
Essentially, PAM builds up our extra attack option, which for us, and mostly with the exception of when we want to go nova with smites, is a sinking ship. PAM is a great dpr boost for paladins, but it's a poor dpr tool for sorcadins, because there are many things that chip little by little enough of its value away from it and there is also lack of any substancial synergy bwteen it and some other feature of ours.

In the end, I don't think it's possible to make a direct comparison between PAM and lucky, or PAM and alert, etc. That's because the feats are simply not directly comparable (at least not in a way I can think of). All we can do is analyze the benefits of each choice and then try to think on our own what do we need the most.

[Alucard89]

And? You still need to play through those 6 levels as a Paladin first, and the Spear & Sheild Variant Human seems to be a superior choice than Longsword & Shield or Greatsword wielding Half-Elf Paladin to me. As for the 2/18 combo... eh, I think the Hexblade Warlock is better for the 2. Sure, you don't get Smite, but you get CHA to attack and damage rolls, Eldritch/Agnozing Blast, and the Hexblade Curse as well.

That is not correct. GWM on Devotion Paladin will do more than PAM because with Sacred Weapon they start with -2 instead of -5 when using GWM + Sacred Weapon.

Vengeance Paladin will also start with Hunter's Mark. You will be most of your career, probably up to level 6-7 running with 16 STR because every Sorcadin and most Paladins focus on CHA increase as you can later get Ogre Gloves.

So wth 16 STR your PAM Paladin will deal every turn extra 1d4 + 3 dmg. That is on average 5.5 dmg.

Vengeance Paladin with Hunter's Mark and Sword n Shield will deal with his two attacks bonus damage of average 7. Sure there is also 2 vs 3 attacks, accuracy etc. But it's not THAT good as you make it be.

Vengeance Paladin that also starts with Shield Master will have a way to generate advantage (if using RAW without Jeremy RAI) vs most enemies, landing two attacks more often than you landing your 3 attacks, while also being able to tank most damage effect in game (since most are DEX for half damage save throws).

What we are all trying to say is: PAM is good, very good, it's just not necessary or best for Sorcadins. They already have rich bonus action economy.

[ChiefBigFeather]

I think it's really hard, if not impossible, to beat the offensive capabilities of Quicken Spell. Sacred Weapon/Extra Attack + Quickened Haste/Greater Invis/Dimension Door has led to a lot of beatdowns. That metamagic effect really makes or breaks the build and lets me do things even DPR hardcases like the Battlemaster and Zealot Barbarian struggle to do.

Quicken really is amazing offensively, but mostly if you have good offensive cantrips. Those are more in the realm of the Sorlock though, the Paladin adds little in terms of offensive powers as Smite is mostly outclassed by Quicken and Twin. You can do both ofc, but that depletes your resources extremely quickly and is rarely practical.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Now that I think about it, I'd actually say that lucky is strictly better than resilient for the reasons I mentioned above (always assuming Warcaster and aura of protection in play).

That's actually pretty good reasoning and justification for it. I guess it comes down to what you would prefer when considering your first level feat, an element of defence and a safety shield that can help you throughout your entire career, or whenever or not you want to sacrifice some of your late-game/high-level defence potential, in order to give yourself a significant bump to your offensive capabilities at lower levels in order to help you get through the lower levels successfully to get to the higher levels.

After all, doesn't D&D typically follow the maxim that the best defence is a good offence?

Regarding what I said at the beginning of this post, about details of optimization, I think that if our human sorcadin (aura of protection, planning for Warcaster) is part of a large enough group (off the top of my head, I'd say 5 or more), not taking inspiring leader as the starting feat is a huge missed opportunity.

Assuming no one else like a Bard or Warlock is taking it instead. But well reasoned.

because gfb's secondary damage is easy to trigger

Eeeeeeeh... I'm honestly pretty sceptical of this claim. They have to be right next to each other, and I've found a lot of combat encounters when people end up spread out and without anyone but their opponent directly adjacent to them. Might just be because of my limited experiences in these campaigns, but I don't think that gfb is reliable as people claim it to be at times. Especially as we are talking about Fire Damage here, with is infamous in how many creatures resist or are outright immune to it.

Not to say it is unreliable, just that I don't think it is as reliable as people want to believe it is.

That is not correct. GWM on Devotion Paladin will do more than PAM because with Sacred Weapon they start with -2 instead of -5 when using GWM + Sacred Weapon.

Well, okay fine. Devotion Paladin can pick up Greater Weapon Master and swap the +2 Shield for massive damage potential. That's still only one type of Paladin. We still have Ancients, Crown and Conquest, possible Oathbreaker as well though I doubt that Oathbreaker is worth an actual discussion.

Vengeance Paladin will also start with Hunter's Mark. You will be most of your career, probably up to level 6-7 running with 16 STR because every Sorcadin and most Paladins focus on CHA increase as you can later get Ogre Gloves.

So with 16 STR, your PAM Paladin will deal every turn extra 1d4 + 3 dmg. That is on average 5.5 dmg.

Vengeance Paladin with Hunter's Mark and Sword n Shield will deal with his two attacks bonus damage of average 7. Sure there is also 2 vs 3 attacks, accuracy etc. But it's not THAT good as you make it be.

... Did, did you forget to add in the fact that a Vengeance Paladin gains Hunter's Mark's damage on the Polearm Master Attack? Because your calculations are pretty poor here.

STR 16 Paladin, going Oath of Vengeance at 3rd level for Hunter's Mark. Spear & Polearm Master vs Sword & IDK, Inspiring Leader.
Level's 1-2:
PAM: 1d6+3+1d4+3 = Average Damage is 12.
S&S: 1d8+3 = 7.5 Average Damage.
Sure, that's only a total increase of 4.5 damage. But this is level 1-2. HP is rarely above 20. That 4.5 damage is huge at this stage in the game.

Level's 3-4:
PAM: 2d6+3 + 1d4+1d6+3. Average Damage = 19
S&S: 1d8+1d6+3. Average Damage = 11.
And the difference jumped from 4.5 to 8. Which is a pretty significant boost to your DPR, and that difference only grows bigger if you get other stacking bonuses. Did you choose Dueling over Defence? +2 difference. Gone Oathbreaker, and hit level 7? Just got a +4-5 boon right there. Magic weapons? Sure that +1 doesn't mean much, but it does add up.

And then when you get to the higher levels, and you want to start throwing in Green-Flame Blade instead of just an attack Action? Well. If you're a Vengeance Paladin, for example, your quite likely to be looking at Haste. And did you know that Polearm Master's bonus action attack triggers off from Haste's Single Weapon Attack? It does count as an Attack Action after all. Meaning you can cast Green-Flame Blade, and still lash out with two different attacks chained together.

I think your underestimating how much of DPS increase PAM is.

If using RAW without Jeremy RAI

Aaaaaand there's going a lot of your argument as well. As it has been ruled that Shield Master's shove can only be used after your attacks, and not before it. So going with 'RAW' is argunig that its DM Fiat, which is very subjective.

[strangebloke]

And? You still need to play through those 6 levels as a Paladin first, and the Spear & Sheild Variant Human seems to be a superior choice than Longsword & Shield or Greatsword wielding Half-Elf Paladin to me. As for the 2/18 combo... eh, I think the Hexblade Warlock is better for the 2. Sure, you don't get Smite, but you get CHA to attack and damage rolls, Eldritch/Agnozing Blast, and the Hexblade Curse as well.

Ah, I missed that you were talking about a dueling PAM user.

There are issues with such a build. Most notably, this whole build requires a very specific order of feats and choices.

Vhuman->pam->dueling->warcaster, right?

Without Vhuman you're taking Pam as an asi and missing out on most of the time that it's actually good.

Without dueling you're missing out on 20% of your damage.

Without warcaster you won't be able to cast basic spells like shield until level ten, without dumping your shield.

I wouldn't say that it's a weak build, exactly, but it does become less good as you gain levels. By the time you're taking sorcadin levels, it would have been be better to start with warcaster and get +2 charisma. And sure, sometimes you'll be working up from level 1, but those attend instances where you really want to play a sorcadin in any case.

[paladinn]

I wouldn't say that it's a weak build, exactly, but it does become less good as you gain levels. By the time you're taking sorcadin levels, it would have been be better to start with warcaster and get +2 charisma. And sure, sometimes you'll be working up from level 1, but those attend instances where you really want to play a sorcadin in any case.

But you can't "start" with warcaster unless your 1st level is sorcerer (or hexblade, if dipping) right? I'm assuming starting paladin for hp and heavy armor. Or is starting sorc (DS in my case) better so I Can start with warcaster and Con save?

I'm also working up a sorlock build that I would do exactly that way! But probably not a sor(loc)cadin