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  1. - Top - End - #931

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Paladin's Heavy Armour and better health pool at early levels makes them a far better choice than a Sorcerer.

    Really, are far as I can tell, a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 build is defunct compared to the Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 18 build. You lose smite and heavy armour, but you gain +Charisma to attack & damage, and Agonzing Blast for a potent ranged DPS ability as well. And the Warlock's Short Rest Spells, especially Armor of Agathys, helps balance out the loss of HP as well (and your d8 vs d10, so the HP loss is mininmal)

  2. - Top - End - #932
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Storyteller_Arc View Post
    Paladin's Heavy Armour and better health pool at early levels makes them a far better choice than a Sorcerer.

    Really, are far as I can tell, a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 build is defunct compared to the Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 18 build. You lose smite and heavy armour, but you gain +Charisma to attack & damage, and Agonzing Blast for a potent ranged DPS ability as well. And the Warlock's Short Rest Spells, especially Armor of Agathys, helps balance out the loss of HP as well (and your d8 vs d10, so the HP loss is mininmal)
    There is nothing really stopping you from going 2/1/17.

  3. - Top - End - #933
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Storyteller_Arc View Post
    Paladin's Heavy Armour and better health pool at early levels makes them a far better choice than a Sorcerer.

    Really, are far as I can tell, a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 build is defunct compared to the Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 18 build. You lose smite and heavy armour, but you gain +Charisma to attack & damage, and Agonzing Blast for a potent ranged DPS ability as well. And the Warlock's Short Rest Spells, especially Armor of Agathys, helps balance out the loss of HP as well (and your d8 vs d10, so the HP loss is mininmal)
    Totally not correct. Smite alone is worth more than Charisma to attack and why you need Agonizing blast if you have teleports and spells like Fireball for example? Also why the hell you compare totally two different builds? This is just stupid.

    2/18 Sorcadin can attack 3 times with Haste on himself and quickening Booming Blade. His main attack is also Green Flame Blade mostly giving him nice 2 targets damage which in lower levels has been proved mathematically to be better than Extra Attack. He has accces to big Nova in melee and he is being almost a pure caster with access to heavy armor and 19 AC once plate + defense style is taken. 2/18 is MELEE BUILD, MELEE.

    Level 16 2/14 Sorcadin will have 18 spell slots per day and 14 Sorcery points, meaning 7 extra attacks per long rest when he needs to Nova. That means you would need A LOT of encounters, difficult ones to really cut off his smite resources.

    Also you Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 18 build will lose badly in Nova department vs 2/18 Sorcadin because Hasted Sorcadin can attack 3 time per turn using smites, easly topping Nova damage of Sorlock. Lock/Sorc will be better in DPR because of Agonizing Blast spam + quicken Blast but you are comparing totally differnt builds. Also tell me what difference will make 2x 1st level short rest slots? None. I would prefer to have Bless and Shield of Faith anyday.

    Two different roles:

    1. 2/18 Sorcadin is caster with option of powerful melee and attacking up to 3 times in his turn with Smites. It's a mix of melee and caster. It's job is both range spell casting and melee boss nuking
    2. 2/18 Sorlock (that's how Warlock + Sorcerer is called) is DPR blaster, who focuses on Agonizing Blast + Quicken Agonizing Blast to have steady good DPR at range, while having more flexibility with spells as he has single target damage covered.

    Those are totally different builds. Why do you even compare them? It's like comparing Samurai Archer with Barbarian. Those are totally different roles.

    You seem like really stubborn person. No matter how many people explain you that what you call "Best" is not objectively and mathematically best- you won't admit it and then your argument is compare Sorcadin to totally different build that has nothing in common with it when it comes to it's main role.

    5e has been released years now. Sorcadins has been optimized and min-maxed left and right and tons of math, debates and actually playing has been done with. I myself played Hexadin 1-14 and Sorcadin 1-16 and 6-17 and more people here have been testing all the stuff much much longer. And are much smarter at that than me.

    So if you think that after years of min-maxing Sorcadin suddenly only you noticed some new incredible build and feat synergy- you are wrong. Everything has been tested, calculated and optimized.

    Play as you want, build as you want but please don't try to sell us PAM or Sorlock as some new best/optimized ideas, because both things are old as 5e when it comes to building characters...

    We told you what is best optimized Sorcadin builds. Take that also to 3d6 reddit - they will tell you the same. Do what you want with that knowledge.
    Last edited by Benny89; 2019-04-25 at 04:42 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #934

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    There is nothing really stopping you from going 2/1/17.
    Well, there is the Level 18 Sorcerer's Origin Ability to serve as a capstone to your build. Unearthly Recovery is a tremendous 'Holy **** I Need Healing!' ability. Umbral Form lets you move through objects and gives you Resistance to most damage, through 6 Sorcery Points is quite costly. Wind Soul gives you 60ft flight and immunity two 2 types of damage... which, admittedly, are somewhat rare, oh and you can also give your entire party 30ft flight speed for 1 hour by reducing your own flight speed to 30 as well. That's pretty cool. Then there's Fiery Soul. You gain Immunity to Fire. You ignore Resistance to Fire, and treat Fire Immunity as Resistance. Pretty awesome capstone for a Pyromancer.

    Sides, if you take 1 level in Warlock, your taking 2. So its 2/2/16 for a build. Losing out on a 4th Metamagic sure, but its worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benny89 View Post
    Totally not correct. Smite alone is worth more than Charisma to attack and why you need Agonizing blast if you have teleports and spells like Fireball for example? Also why the hell you compare totally two different builds? This is just stupid.

    We told you what is best optimized Sorcadin builds. Take that also to 3d6 reddit - they will tell you the same. Do what you want with that knowledge.
    The purpose of this thread. Is to discuss and debate the pros and cons of the different ways we can build a Sorcadin build.

    It is not. To insult people for having different viewpoints to your own, and demand that people accept your viewpoint as the one true viewpoint about optimization, and all other views and ideas are substandard and wrong.

    Enjoy your immediate entry to the blocked list, and have a very good day.

  5. - Top - End - #935
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefBigFeather View Post
    Quicken really is amazing offensively, but mostly if you have good offensive cantrips.
    You don't need offensive cantrips for Quicken Spell to be good on the offense. I've gotten plenty of mileage out of Sacred Weapon + Quickened Haste. Or Quickened Bless. Or Quickened Dimension Door. Or Quickened Greater Invis. Before I got Winged Boots, I could Quicken an upcasted Fly.

    Being able to quicken certain spells is so good that even though I picked SCAG as my book I oftentimes wish I didn't so I could not only use stuff like Thunder Step but so I could also Quicken a Silence spell. Imagine dropping one of those and then immediately grappling my target.

  6. - Top - End - #936
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Storyteller_Arc View Post
    Enjoy your immediate entry to the blocked list, and have a very good day.
    Why are you even in this thread?

    You know what, do me a solid and add me to your block list, too, there's no point in talking to someone who not only completely refuses to acknowledge other peoples' points but then acts belligerently when called out on it.

  7. - Top - End - #937
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Benny89 View Post
    Totally not correct. Smite alone is worth more than Charisma to attack and why you need Agonizing blast if you have teleports and spells like Fireball for example? Also why the hell you compare totally two different builds? This is just stupid.
    Smite is very resource intensive and less efficient then quicken, on a class with resources stretched pretty thin already. Cha to attack is quite significant, especially for a spell heavy character. A Sorlock can mostly dump str!

    2/18 Sorcadin can attack 3 times with Haste on himself and quickening Booming Blade. His main attack is also Green Flame Blade mostly giving him nice 2 targets damage which in lower levels has been proved mathematically to be better than Extra Attack. He has accces to big Nova in melee and he is being almost a pure caster with access to heavy armor and 19 AC once plate + defense style is taken. 2/18 is MELEE BUILD, MELEE.
    I don‘t think two armor class are worth a level. I don‘t think some extra damage for a single fight per long rest is worth it either. We are really good at those scenarios already, I want more sustainability.

    Level 16 2/14 Sorcadin will have 18 spell slots per day and 14 Sorcery points, meaning 7 extra attacks per long rest when he needs to Nova. That means you would need A LOT of encounters, difficult ones to really cut off his smite resources.
    But you are a caster with access to level 7 spells. I can think of a lot of things to do with those slots. Just smiting seems like a waste.
    Also you Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 18 build will lose badly in Nova department vs 2/18 Sorcadin because Hasted Sorcadin can attack 3 time per turn using smites, easly topping Nova damage of Sorlock. Lock/Sorc will be better in DPR because of Agonizing Blast spam + quicken Blast but you are comparing totally differnt builds. Also tell me what difference will make 2x 1st level short rest slots? None. I would prefer to have Bless and Shield of Faith anyday.
    Convert them into sorcery points before short rests? We already established that smite helps to nova even harder, but I don‘t expect that to last the recommended 6-8 encounters per day. That extra nova damage comes at a significant opportunity cost though: no sneaking, bad initiative, MAD.

    Two different roles:

    1. 2/18 Sorcadin is caster with option of powerful melee and attacking up to 3 times in his turn with Smites. It's a mix of melee and caster. It's job is both range spell casting and melee boss nuking
    2. 2/18 Sorlock (that's how Warlock + Sorcerer is called) is DPR blaster, who focuses on Agonizing Blast + Quicken Agonizing Blast to have steady good DPR at range, while having more flexibility with spells as he has single target damage covered.

    Those are totally different builds. Why do you even compare them? It's like comparing Samurai Archer with Barbarian. Those are totally different roles.
    You are aware that GFB is on the Sorcerer and Worlock list right? If you want to focus on melee, the Sorlock does not really need Agonizing blast btw, we can get a level ahead at spellcasting then.

    No matter how many people explain you that what you call "Best" is not objectively and mathematically best- you won't admit it and then your argument is compare Sorcadin to totally different build that has nothing in common with it when it comes to it's main role.
    The Sorcerer X/Warlock 1-2 and the Paladin 2/Sorcerer X actually fill very similar roles. They are nova strikers who are also good at arcane casting. The Sorlock trades two AC and some nova potential but gains SAD (and thus better initiative), better sustainability and really nice short rest crit fishing abilities. There is ofc some degree of subjectivity involved but I think the Sorlock pretty much outclasses the Sorcadin here. I‘m too lazy to do the math, but I suspect the Sorcadin will have to smite with level 2 spells just to make up the difference in attack and damage from the Sorlocks SAD at levels 9-14.

    [edit] Fixed some typos. There are probably more, the post was done on my cellphone and quite late :)
    Last edited by ChiefBigFeather; 2019-04-26 at 07:23 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #938
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    So I'm still thinking of Vengeance Pal 6/ Hexblade 2/ Divine Soul X:

    Vuman - PAM (spear), +1Cha, +1Con
    1. VP 1 for HP and heavy armor
    2. HB 1 for EB, BB, Shield and Cha-SAD (what a level!)
    3-6. VP 2-5 - smites, dueling style, extra attack (4!), ASI (+2Cha)
    7. HB 2 - AB, Repelling, Hex
    8. VP 6 - Aura of protection
    9-13. DS 1-5 for Toll the Dead, Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Magic missile, Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Spiritual Weapon, Fireball, Revivify

    I think this gets me a good balance of melee, ranged, blasting and healing. Not sure when is the best time to take HB 2. Then after DS 5 I'm not sure. Also not sure when to drop the shield and spear and pick up a glaive.

  9. - Top - End - #939

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Why are you even in this thread?

    You know what, do me a solid and add me to your block list, too, there's no point in talking to someone who not only completely refuses to acknowledge other peoples' points but then acts belligerently when called out on it.
    There's a difference. Between having a discussion with someone like Corran. Who politely and respectfully explains why they disagree with you and your argument.

    And someone like Benny89. Who goes 'YOUR WRONG YOUR WRONG YOUR WRONG YOUR WROOOOOOOOOONG!!!!!!!' in their post and does not treat you respectfully and politely.

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    I think this gets me a good balance of melee, ranged, blasting and healing. Not sure when is the best time to take HB 2. Then after DS 5 I'm not sure. Also not sure when to drop the shield and spear and pick up a glaive.
    Well your not picking up Warcaster anywhere, meaning that you will have great difficulty casting with a spear and shield combo. Might be better to leave the +2 Charisma until your Sorcerer ASI.

    Not sure if its worth picking up 2 levels of Hexblade either, as you do need 13 Strength to Multiclass, meaning your likely going to have a +2 modifier to strength regardless... and if you want heavier armour, which is a big boon to play a Paladin, your going to need the 15/16 Strength for Plate Armour as well, further increasing your Strength modifier and narrowing down the difference that being a Hexblade gives you.
    Last edited by Storyteller_Arc; 2019-04-26 at 02:47 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #940

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Storyteller_Arc View Post
    There's a difference. Between having a discussion with someone like Corran. Who politely and respectfully explains why they disagree with you and your argument.

    And someone like Benny89. Who goes 'YOUR WRONG YOUR WRONG YOUR WRONG YOUR WROOOOOOOOOONG!!!!!!!' in their post and does not treat you respectfully and politely.
    @Benny89 was respectful at first (like most) to you but when you just deny everything he told you in good will (because he just wanted to explain to you that your build choice is not the best and can be done better) you just portrait yourself as stubborn person who can't accept fact that what they thought was so great is not and it's nothing new really.

    Also he told you multiple times that you can build as you want and you will have fun anyway. However, question was about optimizing Sorcadin and he (and others) told you well-known and best ways to optimize him, while all you did was say "no, I know better". So if you know better- why are you even in this thread? Why even ask? Also I agree with @Benny89- why bring Sorlock to Sorcadin thread suddenly? It's invalid argument. Make different thread abut "Sorcadin vs Sorlock". This is not place for it. What you will say later, that "Wizard is better than 2/18 Sorcadin so 2/18 Sorcadin is bad build"?

    Also your capital letters and "!!!!!!" just confirms that you are a person who easily gets angry when people don't agree with you, despite giving you tons of arguments and trying to help you.

    It's quite childish to write something like "YOUR WRONG YOUR WRONG YOUR WRONG YOUR WROOOOOOOOOONG!!!!!!!". Seriously?

    I suggest to mature a little bit more and don't count on "respect" as given, because you have to earn it. There is no further point treating with respect someone who does not respect other people time and knowledge by sticking fingers in their ears and going "yada yada yada, you are wrong, I am right". They just tried to give you best advice. Your response seems very ungrateful.

    Some people like Corran are always nice, but I don't see a reason to remain nice when you show attitude like that towards someone.

    With forced respect,

    Alucard
    Last edited by Alucard89; 2019-04-26 at 06:35 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #941
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    So I'm still thinking of Vengeance Pal 6/ Hexblade 2/ Divine Soul X:

    Vuman - PAM (spear), +1Cha, +1Con
    1. VP 1 for HP and heavy armor
    2. HB 1 for EB, BB, Shield and Cha-SAD (what a level!)
    3-6. VP 2-5 - smites, dueling style, extra attack (4!), ASI (+2Cha)
    7. HB 2 - AB, Repelling, Hex
    8. VP 6 - Aura of protection
    9-13. DS 1-5 for Toll the Dead, Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Magic missile, Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Spiritual Weapon, Fireball, Revivify

    I think this gets me a good balance of melee, ranged, blasting and healing. Not sure when is the best time to take HB 2. Then after DS 5 I'm not sure. Also not sure when to drop the shield and spear and pick up a glaive.
    I think there is room for improvement for your sorcerer spells. First of all you'll only have 6 of them at that point (7 with healing word as the bonus), but that's ok since you can always have cure wounds prepared as one of your paladin spells, so there is no real need to pick it as one of your sorcerer spells. That aside, I think you need to decide on your metamagic (I assume that quickened is going to be one of them, but what's the second?), if you haven't already. When you decide on your metamagic, this will make some spells a lot more desirable, so you'll might want to include them. If that will be the case, the first spells I would consider dropping would be scorching ray and magic missile. Magic missile isn't a bad spell, but you'll already have a very good ranged option from being a warlock. And since ranged combat wont be your specialty, I don't think you really need more, at least not at the cost of your few known sorcerer spells.

    Regarding healing and undoing death. Well, let's break it down. There are spells that work well for when you want to heal during combat (healing word, heal) and because you are a divine soul and you get empowered healing, I would also be tempted by sth like mass cure wounds. There are spells that work well when you want to heal after the combat is done (prayer of healing, aura of vitality). And for bringing back the dead, there is revivify and raise dead. Healing word you can get as a freebee, so we don't worry about that. There is a good argument about going up to paladin 9 for this. This will give you access to aura of vitality and revivify, eventually means that you will end up with one more sorcerer spell, it will also increase your lay on hands points and will speed the rate with which you get feats, it will give you access to more paladin spells to pick from (some other good 3rd level options, most notably dispel magic), all you get that at the price of 2 sorcery points, delaying your sorcerer spells and eventually missing out on 6th level sorcerer spells. It's not an easy decision to make, but I think I'd go for the former. Just something you might want to consider.

    I am assuming that you are picking shield and absorb elements (and possibly hex) as your warlock spells.

    Regarding progression, and assuming your initial split of 6/2/12, I'd delay any caster levels till I got warcaster, and I think I would want to delay my warlock levels enough, at least till there is a noticeable difference between my CHA and STR scores and until my EB has 2 or more likely 3 beams, so that the EB invocations can have a good impact. The soonest I'd want the warlock levels on, would be at 11th level.

    Stat wise I would not drop str lower than 15. I wouldn't want a decrease in speed (despite how I have options like a good ranged attack, a mount or teleportation spells), but I would also appreciate the bonus to attempting or resisting shoves and grapples. More importantly, starting with a +2 to STR means that I don't have to rush the hexblade level, and that means quicker access to stuff like extra attack, aura of protection and 2nd/3rd level sorcerer spells.

    If you just want to be good at wielding a polearm, or at least that's your priority, there is little reason to take sorcerer levels. Go straight paladin and possibly take 2 levels of hexblade so that you can be SAD and profit from a maxed attack bonus and aura of protection at the same time. IDS at paladin 11 will give you a very solid boost to your polearm attacks, and you still get to be good at out of combat healing and at bringing back the dead (aura of vitality and revivify). In that case I would probably pick the 1st warlock level at level 5 and the second warlock level at level 11, 12 or 13. There is little point in adding sorcerer levels if you do not plan on making the most out of he interaction of your limited sorcerer spells and metamagic.




    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    ...but so I could also Quicken a Silence spell. Imagine dropping one of those and then immediately grappling my target.
    This paused me for a while. Because of the complications of how to execute it if I start a battle with a shield equipped. But then again I can attack and smite with a shield as an improvised weapon, can't I? I think that's the case. And a mage wont have a great AC in all likelihood, and with silence they wont be able to rely on sth like shield, so it will probably not matter much that I will be attacking with a lower than usual bonus. On the other hand, if I've got the mage neutralized that way, it might even not be worth it to smite.

    I am about to ramble wildly...
    I am trying to think of a combat scenario. Usually the mage wont be alone, cause it wont make for a good fight. At least that's what I am assuming. Let's say it's the mage and some golems or sth. If I go for the mage, the golems can go for me, for my allies, or they can even split and go for both. If the golems are going for my allies, I am not tanking them, so that's a bit of a waste. But let's say that at least some of the golems go for me. Ideally I want to keep the mage grappled inside the silence so he will be mostly useless, and focus on the golems which can hurt me. There's a bit of a problem if I am equipped with a shield, so now I must either start the encounter without a shield or spend an action dropping it at some point. The first is obviously the better option, but both are a bit problematic, since I am either required to know a fair bit of the encounter ahead of time (that there's a mage, that it will be reasonably possible for me to go after the mage and attempt a grapple, stuff like that), or I must hurt my action economy a bit. Can the golems attempt to break my grapple on the mage? Not sure about the rules and AFB. If so, sanctuary might be a very good spell for the occasion, assuming the mage is by far and away the biggest threat of this encounter. Definitely works best for a sorcadin who does not use a shield and has a one-handed back up weapon.
    Hacks!

  12. - Top - End - #942

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    @Benny89 was respectful at first (like most) to you
    I'm sorry. But what part of 'Totally not correct. Smite alone is worth more than Charisma to attack and why you need Agonizing blast if you have teleports and spells like Fireball for example? Also why the hell you compare totally two different builds? This is just stupid.' is respectful?

    They point blank told me that I was wrong, said so multipule times that I was wrong, simply for disagreeing with their views of how to optimize a Sorcadin, and that I was stupid for comparing a 2/18 Hexblade/Sorcerer build with a 2/18 Paladin/Sorcerer build. Because apparently, a build that has only 1/10th of a difference is a completely different build from each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    all you did was say "no, I know better".
    Ummm. No? No, I don't?

    I do what everyone else does on this thread. I discuss and debate with people what is the best way to optimize a Sorcadin, and the difficulties of optimization due to the differences expected to be found in campaigns and how they are run. A game starting at level 1 and running all the way to level 20, is very different from a game that starts at level 3 and ends at level 9, or a game that starts at level 14 and ends at 20.

    If someone has put forward a well-reasoned, justified argument. Such as what Corran has done so, I am more than happy to concede to their argument and accept that my viewpoint was in error. However, they actually need to put forward a well-reasoned, justified argument, and thus far that has happened in a limited capacity.

    As you have attempted to engage me in the past, and have been willing to debate this subject, I will let your incredibly rudeness and hostility pass this one time. If you continue with this attitude however, I will block you.

    I am here to debate and discuss Sorcadin optimization.

    I am not here to get insulted and shouted at for disagreeing with the views of other people.

  13. - Top - End - #943
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    So I'm still thinking of Vengeance Pal 6/ Hexblade 2/ Divine Soul X:

    Vuman - PAM (spear), +1Cha, +1Con
    1. VP 1 for HP and heavy armor
    2. HB 1 for EB, BB, Shield and Cha-SAD (what a level!)
    3-6. VP 2-5 - smites, dueling style, extra attack (4!), ASI (+2Cha)
    7. HB 2 - AB, Repelling, Hex
    8. VP 6 - Aura of protection
    9-13. DS 1-5 for Toll the Dead, Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Magic missile, Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Spiritual Weapon, Fireball, Revivify

    I think this gets me a good balance of melee, ranged, blasting and healing. Not sure when is the best time to take HB 2. Then after DS 5 I'm not sure. Also not sure when to drop the shield and spear and pick up a glaive.
    About your spell selection:
    I'd definitely try to squeeze an Absorb Elements in. Counterspell/Dispel Magic seem really juicy too, as those are among the best spells when upcasting. You will probably do more damage if you convert the Magic Missile and Scorching Ray spell slots into quicken/smite at that level. I would also consider Mirror Image, as that is one of the best defensive spells in the game.

    I'm not a huge fan of Repelling Blast in that build. You already have a way to gain advantage, but I'd still prefer Devil's Sight. Or even something like Fiendish Vigor for some extra defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    Also I agree with @Benny89- why bring Sorlock to Sorcadin thread suddenly? It's invalid argument. Make different thread abut "Sorcadin vs Sorlock". This is not place for it. What you will say later, that "Wizard is better than 2/18 Sorcadin so 2/18 Sorcadin is bad build"?
    On the contrary, it's perfectly valid. If you try to play a Sorcerer like a Wizard, I'd surely point out that Wizard might be a better option, even if the thread is about Sorcerer optimization.
    Hexblade splashes are certainly an option for Cha based gishes, so discussing the gain of Paladin levels is definitely worth it. It is not comparing apples to oranges, like your example suggests. We are discussing optimization here, aren't we?

    @all sides: Please stop the petty bickering, it is really distracting from the topic.
    Last edited by ChiefBigFeather; 2019-04-26 at 07:43 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #944

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefBigFeather View Post
    We are discussing optimization here, aren't we?
    We are discussing Sorcadins optimization on Srocadin thread. 2/18 Sorlock has nothing to do with Sorcadins. It's has nothing to do with this thread. You can bring this up but it does nothing about optimizing Sorcadin.

    2 Warlock/2 Paladin/16 Sorcerer- ok, now we are talking variant Sorcadin build.

    But 2/18 Sorlock has nothing to do with Sorcadin optimization as it's not Sorcadin build. Simple as that.

  15. - Top - End - #945
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quoting out of context is rude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    2/18 Sorlock has nothing to do with Sorcadins. It's has nothing to do with this thread. You can bring this up but it does nothing about optimizing Sorcadin.
    But as I pointed out already: It does. The 2/18 Sorlock and 1/19 Sorlock fill exactly the same role as the 2/18 Sorcadin but both are mechanically slightly stronger overall. Looking at other classes and class combinations and comparing them is very valuable as you can learn something about the Sorcadin.
    Last edited by ChiefBigFeather; 2019-04-26 at 08:03 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #946
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Corran: My biggest motivation for going two-handed weapon fighter wasn't the damage (this is AL, so the AC hit was and is a bigger pain than the increase to offense) but just to have a free hand. I've used scrolls, magical items, held doors shut, grapple-dragged party members, manipulated object McGuffins on the battlefield, hung from chandeliers and ropes, soforth.

    The value of that kind of versatility isn't easy to quantify like a +2 - 5 to AC is. But I do know it has saved our lives plenty of times. For example, me being able to drag out a party member who dropped in an anti-magic field a demilich put up as a lair action and then Quicken a Cure Wounds.

  17. - Top - End - #947

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    So I'm still thinking of Vengeance Pal 6/ Hexblade 2/ Divine Soul X:

    Vuman - PAM (spear), +1Cha, +1Con
    1. VP 1 for HP and heavy armor
    2. HB 1 for EB, BB, Shield and Cha-SAD (what a level!)
    3-6. VP 2-5 - smites, dueling style, extra attack (4!), ASI (+2Cha)
    7. HB 2 - AB, Repelling, Hex
    8. VP 6 - Aura of protection
    9-13. DS 1-5 for Toll the Dead, Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Magic missile, Scorching Ray, Invisibility, Spiritual Weapon, Fireball, Revivify

    I think this gets me a good balance of melee, ranged, blasting and healing. Not sure when is the best time to take HB 2. Then after DS 5 I'm not sure. Also not sure when to drop the shield and spear and pick up a glaive.
    I would firs to f all, give up 2 Levels of Hexblade. It's better to have access to higher Sorc levels spells and higher slots both for upcasting and Sorc Point generation.

    1 Hexblade level for SAD CHA is good choice, though if you can expect in your game Ogre Gauntlets/Giant Belts- SAD CHA is not important and 16 STR will be enough with Sword n Shield Sorcadin no problem. I know as I played one.

    Also you have to think of it from real-gameplay perspective. You will already wait for 3rd ASI 6 levels (from 4-10) on standard 6/14 build. With Hexblade dip that will be 7 levels.

    Every build sounds good on paper, but road to all those levels is LONG. REALLY LONG. Any delay in caster progression, ASI etc. is really significant in real-gameplay.

    You are writing this build like "ow, this will be good when I have all of this stuff". But to get there won't feel good.

    Hence why I will still recommend 6/14 build and forget Hexblade dip. Also Curse will overlap on your bonus action with VoE, Quicken cantrips, PAM bonus attack, quicken Hold, quicken spells etc. Most encounters in 5e lasts on average 3 turns. There is no point of having so many bonus action things as you won't feel their impact at all. It's not like combat lasts 10 turns so you can spend 3 setting up things as bonus action.

    In real fight you will mostly as Divine Vengeance Sorcadin do VoE + Holy Weapon, VoE + Spirit Guardians or just Shadow Blade (if in dim light or darkness) and proceed to smite boss.

    Als you build level plan is bad, you delay already delayed ASI so much...

    This is a mess. Your second ASI will be on level 6... Your 3rd ASI will be on level.. just no.

    First of all you want extra attack and Aura as fast as possible. If you really want to be CHA SAD, go 1-5 Paladin, 1 Hexblade, 1 Paladin for 6/1. Then everything into Sorcerer.

    Keep in mind that PAM will get worse the higher levels you get. Spiritual Weapon will deal 1d8 +5 dmg normally when needed (upcasted to higher damage), When you will NOVA you will quicken Booming Blade anyway so you won't use your PAM extra attack.

    When you will fight strong Humanoid and do Quicken Hold - you won't use PAM bonus attack. When you crit on him next turn (if he fail save again) you will want to quicken BB anyway because you can extra BB damage multiple by crit + higher base weapon damage.

    When you start boss fight you will use Bonus Action for VoE or Shadow Blade- no PAM attack. Shadow Blade can't be spear so no bonus attack.

    Example of high level Vengeance Sorcadin who in boss fight upcast Shadow Blade (when in darkness or dim light) for max damage:

    Turn one: Shadow Blade, 2 attacks 5d8 + 4 + 5d8. 20d8 + 8
    Turn two: 3 attacks for 30d8 + 12 + 2d8 (BB).
    Total: 52d8 + 16 damage = 250 dmg.

    That is when you need to Nova really really hard.

    PAM + Holy Weapon + VoE:
    1 turn: VoE + Holy Weapon
    2 turn: 2d6 + 14d8 + 1d4 + 7d8 + 15 (20 CHA)
    Total: 23.5 + 21d8 = 94.5

    VoE + Holy Weapon + Quicken BB (longsword, no PAM)
    1 turn: VoE + Holy Weapon
    2 turn: 2d8 + 14d8 + 1d8 + 7d8 + 2d8 + 12 (19 STR, Ogre Gauntlents)
    Total: 26d8 + 12 = 129 dmg.

    So while PAM is nice at levels 1-9 I would say, later you have better tools to use bonus action.

    Also it's worth to note that with PAM + Hexblade dip you will have 20 CHA by level 15.
    1 - PAM, 4- War Caster, 11- +2 CHA, 15 - +2 CHA. Also you can swap WC with + CHA, but that means:

    You won't have +4 to Attack until either level 4 or 11 or you won't have good concentration saves until level 11. You won't have +5 to saves untill 15, or +4 until 11 if you want War Caster first (which you should). So you have +5 to attack only at level 15.

    In the meantime 6/14 build that starts with War Caster or RES (CON) will have 20 CHA and 16 STR at level 10, 18 STR at level 14 (if you play non-magic campaign and there are no STR items).}

    That means that 6/14 will have better conc saves since level 1, better spell DC from level 10 and will have +3 to attack, while you will have +4 till level 15, where if 6/14 decides to take 18 STR on level 14, he will have +4 to attack while you will have on level 15 +5 to attack. That means for most time what you get from SAD CHA is barely +1 more to hit and damage. Imo not worth 9th level slot, faster caster progression and faster ASI.

    Hence why I would stick with 6/14 without PAM or if you really think that +1 from SAD CHA will be so good- take 6/1/13 build and go either 1 PAL, 1 HEX, 5 PAL (if you start with 15 or 13 STR) or 1-5 PAL, 1 HEX, 1 PAL (if you start with 16 STR).

    It's also worth to mention that you have Animated Objects. If enemy is not resistant to non-magical damage- AO will out DPR PAM with Smite. Then first turn first bonus action would go for VoE, Second bonus action in 2nd turn would go on AO, in 3rd turn bonus action would go into quicken BB for maximum damage. 2 turns worth of AO DPR would out damage that. Mostly after 3 such turns (+ your party) = boss is dead.

    What I try to show you is how much already you have on your bonus action to use and how you can use that bonus action (Shadow Blade, Animated Objects, Quicken buff) to out damage PAM easy. It does cost resources but you play caster to use your spell and slots, right? So if you want max dmg, use what you have as Sorcadin to fullest. Hence why PAM is not optimal choice. It's not bad at all, it's good. It's just not as good as on Paladins, Hexadins or Paladins 12+ with Sorcerer dips.
    Last edited by Alucard89; 2019-04-26 at 08:33 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #948
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Storyteller_Arc View Post
    ... 2/18 Hexblade/Sorcerer -- 2/18 Paladin/Sorcerer ...
    Honestly, those builds do not achieve same results. They feel similar, but they're as different as day and night.

    Hexblade can certainly take Eldritch Smite Invocation, but as written and as has been confirmed by Jeremy Crawford, Eldritch Smite only works with the spell slots gained from Pact Magic.

    That's quite a big contrast compared to Divine Smite, which has been confirmed to work with any spell slots you might have available; either from Spellcasting or Pact Magic.

    A Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 18 has only two 1st-level spell slots they can use for Eldritch Smite. Although, they do refresh on short rests, I'll give them that. But that's not a lot. Assuming an adventuring day contains 2 short rests on average, that's as much as six 1st-level spell slots to use in a whole day. And in one adventuring day, including those two short rests, on average there should be 6-8 encounters (more, if your DM is particularly sadistic)

    A Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 has four 1st-level spell slots, three 2nd-level spell slots, three 3rd-level spell slots, three 4th-level spell slots, and many more higher level spell slots, which, while they don't gain any increased benefit in regards to being used for smites, can be converted to lower level spell slots after you've first converted them into Sorcery Points - both of which take a separate bonus action).

    Power-wise, Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 has much more smiting potential in the long run than a Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 18 can even dream of, even considering their short rest spell slots (all two of them at 1st-level!).


    Now, I admit I didn't read the discussion from the start, but I wanted to give my point of view on this anyway.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2019-04-26 at 08:48 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #949

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefBigFeather View Post
    Quoting out of context is rude.



    But as I pointed out already: It does. The 2/18 Sorlock and 1/19 Sorlock fill exactly the same role as the 2/18 Sorcadin but both are mechanically slightly stronger overall. Looking at other classes and class combinations and comparing them is very valuable as you can learn something about the Sorcadin.
    No it still doesn't make sense. It' Sorcadin thread, we talk how to optimize Sorcadins (which involves mixing Paladin with Sorcerer for a build). Sorlock can simillar role but that doesn't make it Sorcadin in Sorcadin thread, talking about optimizing Sorcaidn.

    Samurai Fighter 12 with Elven Accuracy, 3 Gloom Stalker and 3 Assassin can be said to fill the same role- Nova hard striker, but it has nothing to do with Sorcadin.

    Just to point out this build would in first turn deal 20d8 + 80 + 16d6 + 40 in first turn, average of 266 dmg in first turn, out damaging in one turn 2 turns of both Sorlock and Sorcadin. That is without any buff. With Holy Weapon on him he has 338 dmg in first turn.

    But again- that has nothing to do with Sorcadin optimization.

  20. - Top - End - #950

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    So while PAM is nice at levels 1-9 I would say, later you have better tools to use bonus action.
    So for approximately 50% of all levels you are playing in, PAM is an excellent choice?

    Sounds like its a rather optimal choice to me. Especially as people play around in the lower levels a lot more than the higher ones. Pick it up level 1 as a Variant Human and it has next to no cost for doing so, and then you can use the bonus attack action and even the extra reaction potential to carry you through the lower levels until it finally starts to fall off in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Hexblade can certainly take Eldritch Smite Invocation, but as written and as has been confirmed by Jeremy Crawford, Eldritch Smite only works with the spell slots gained from Pact Magic.

    That's quite a big contrast compared to Divine Smite, which has been confirmed to work with any spell slots you might have available; either from Spellcasting or Pact Magic.
    Eldritch Smite is also a Level 5 Invocation as well. Meaning that a Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 18 Build can't get access to it.

    I am not unaware of the fact that as a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 build has Divine Smite, which a Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 18 build simply does not have access to, there is a significant level of difference between them. That the Sorcadin Build does have a Nova potential that the Hexblade quite frankly lacks. At the same time, however, the builds, by their very nature, are primarily sorcerer builds with a high level of spellcasting between them, and the 2 level dips in both builds are primarily in place to give a Sorcerer a level of survivability and fighting ability if forced to fight in melee.

    The method they perform this is different. But the results from the Hexblade tend to be superior due to the great stat balance, as well as the utility that his invocations provide, losing out on in some edge Nova Cases when compared to the Sorcadin build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    No it still doesn't make sense. It' Sorcadin thread, we talk how to optimize Sorcadins (which involves mixing Paladin with Sorcerer for a build). Sorlock can simillar role but that doesn't make it Sorcadin in Sorcadin thread, talking about optimizing Sorcaidn
    No, it makes perfect sense.

    We talk about how to optimize Sorcadins. Therefore, we acknowledge when a different build with only slight differences, is entirely superior to the build we want, and that from an optimization standpoint this Sorcadin build is invalid.

    We aren't comparing a Samurai 12/Ranger 3/Rogue 3 build to Sorcadin builds. That's not a Paladin build or a Sorcerer build. But comparing a 2/18 Paladin/Sorcerer build to a 2/18 Warlock/Sorcerer build simply makes sense due to the 90% similarities between the builds.

  21. - Top - End - #951
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Corran: My biggest motivation for going two-handed weapon fighter wasn't the damage (this is AL, so the AC hit was and is a bigger pain than the increase to offense) but just to have a free hand. I've used scrolls, magical items, held doors shut, grapple-dragged party members, manipulated object McGuffins on the battlefield, hung from chandeliers and ropes, soforth.

    The value of that kind of versatility isn't easy to quantify like a +2 - 5 to AC is. But I do know it has saved our lives plenty of times. For example, me being able to drag out a party member who dropped in an anti-magic field a demilich put up as a lair action and then Quicken a Cure Wounds.
    Ah... all these options I forget they exist when it is my turn.
    Don't say that to underestimate their importance though, just to admit that I am not a thinker or creative with my options type of player. At best I remember to dodge or shove, and when there is a very obvious terrain advantage I remember to grapple, but that's about it as far as non-class action options go. In other words, give me a thief rogue (fast hands) or an illusionist to play, and watch me suffer.

    Quick question. You mentioned somewhere dimension door. I have a hard time prioritizing this spell over misty step for sorcadins (and I hardly ever find room for both). I can see the advantage in being able to bring someone along with you, or in being able to teleport even further (though maybe I downplay this last one in my head), but is that something you have found to pay off?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    I would firs to f all, give up 2 Levels of Hexblade. It's better to have access to higher Sorc levels spells and higher slots both for upcasting and Sorc Point generation.
    Generally I agree with this. Or at the very least, with delaying the warlock levels enough so that you can first get access to the spells around which you plan to base your combat tactics. Let me be the devil's advocate for a while though. The 2 warlock levels (which are even more alluring now that hexblade is an option), give you some benefits, among which (and this is the one that tempts me the most) you'll find that they boost your ranged attacks (eventually considerably) and they add a small control option at them (repelling blast). Now, as I implied in the beginning, most of the time I would not bother, because I don't think this kind of boost is worth the delay in paladin or sorcerer levels. Essentially cause it's a boost in ranged attacks, and we are primarily a melee character. Meaning, the warlock levels for sure make your character more well rounded (as if you replace sth like fire bolt with EB + hex + agonizing blast, then you can confidently add ranged dpr in your ''job description''), but I think that most of the times this wont be worth the delay caused by having to take 2 warlock levels. But consider some situations under which this move will be worth it. Let's say that you play in a group where most if not all the pc's have decent-great ranged attack options. And consider that the players of these characters have decided to play smartly. For example, they play similarly to how a lot of people would play the characters in a video game, that is by kiting a lot. That means several ranged attacks before the enemies manage to engage the pc's (if they can even manage). This is a scenario (granted, not very common, at the very least in my experience) where it would make a lot of sense for us to grab these 2 extra warlock levels. Or consider a group that will have trouble dealing with kiting or flying opponents, and the DM is not planning to hold back, so for example when they fight a dragon, the dragon (even if it's not a blue one) will have no problem lifting up to the air no matter how much the players will whine. Having a great ranged attack option instead of just a good one might also prove really useful in such cases. The dip in hexblade is certainly tempting for sorcadins, and there are more benefits than the boost to ranged attacks for sure, yet I partly agree with you, in that it will usually be just better to skip them (or at the very least delay them significantly). I just want to point out, that at least imo there are cases where it will be worth investing in them.
    Hacks!

  22. - Top - End - #952

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Storyteller_Arc View Post
    So for approximately 50% of all levels you are playing in, PAM is an excellent choice?

    Sounds like its a rather optimal choice to me. .
    I know it sounds that for you, we all know that from last 3 pages. So let's just assume what I write is for other people than you, who may consider different options and don't want to pigeon hole them self.

    So, first of all- I said it's nice feat, but not optimal. Optimal choice at that levels is War Caster first of all due to how many concentration effect constantly Paladin and Sorcadin uses. RES (CON) would be second. And War Caster and RES (CON) stays relevant and strong all the way from 1-20 level, while PAM gets worse and worse on Sorcadin. Especially if you find a great magic weapon that is not polearm- suddenly your whole feat is useless.

    Also, having later a precious ASI that you probably won't use much in combat anymore due to how many better things you can do with bonus action - is bad.

    If a feat taken gets worse and worse to a point where it's really hard to justify using it during combat- that is not optimal choice.

    Optimal choices stay strong and relevant through whole build career.

    Also CHA > CONC > Attack boosts for Sorcadins. Delaying your 20 CHA (Aura + Spell DCs) or Concentration boost by 4-5 levels (or even 6 with 2 Hexblade...) just to have medicore bonus attack that will be worse than 90% of Sorcadin options for bonus action is not optimal choice by any definition.

    What is optimal on Sorcadins: War Caster/RES(CON), maxing CHA to 20 as fast as possible.

    Rest is preference, but those are optimal choices. PAM is not. It's a good talent to take, but nowhere a priority for Sorcadin.


    Quote Originally Posted by Storyteller_Arc View Post
    We aren't comparing a Samurai 12/Ranger 3/Rogue 3 build to Sorcadin builds. That's not a Paladin build or a Sorcerer build. But comparing a 2/18 Paladin/Sorcerer build to a 2/18 Warlock/Sorcerer build simply makes sense due to the 90% similarities between the builds.
    Sorlock is also not Paladin build so if you can bring non-paladin build do discussion about Paladin build (because Sorcadin is Paladin multiclass build) than my Samurai is perfectly viable too as it has nothing to do with Paladin.

    Hell, I will bring 2 X class/18 Sorcerer as it seems I only need Sorc to talk about Paladin build optimization here.

    Similarity is only similarity. It's not the same and it's not relevant.

    I don't think I could bring a dolphin to a thread about fish biology, only because of similarity. "But both swim and have fins".
    Last edited by Alucard89; 2019-04-26 at 10:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Storyteller_Arc View Post
    I am not unaware of the fact that as a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 build has Divine Smite, which a Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 18 build simply does not have access to, there is a significant level of difference between them.
    I know this is not relevant with the point you try to make in your answer, so apologies for derailing this a bit.
    I don't think that having smite on a pal2/sorc18 makes much of a difference. You can only smite at a maximum rate of 1/round. Unless you take PAM or quicken a weapon cantrip of course. Between these two options, I think quickening is better, because I don't think it's worth taking a feat for such a corner case scenario (nova), maybe it's because I don't think you need to go nova all that often. So I'd prefer the quicken option. But with quicken, that will be what, 6-10 sp per day, just for quickening so we can probably smite twice per round? And then I consider this. A pal2/sorc18 will have the same base AC as every other sorcadin or paladin, but they are worse defensive wise on everything else. Slightly lower hp (although that doesn't make much of a difference), worse saves, worse concentration(!), less incentive to use concentration spells that boost defenses because the point was to advance in sorcerer levels so you can play with the big spells (so that means less effective AC), no (or fewer) oath features (some of which help with defenses), less lay on hands points to the point that lay on hands will stop being an action worth considering during combat (while for a sorcadin with even as few as 6 paladin levels that's not necessarily the case; 30 hp are nothing to frown about). Generally they are less suited for melee combat. And when do you want to smite? When there is a big threat. At least that's when it makes sense/ is most efficient to do so. So you will need to have good defenses against that big threat, cause you'll be next to it to smite it. And then there is something else to consider. Given all the following, add that if I am also concentrating on sth really good (because minus two levels I am a pure caster), let's say I use a wish to cast a wall of force because for example (it's easy to imagine combat scenarios where wall of force would make a real difference), why do I want to risk dying or at the very least losing my concentration for something like smiting once (or twice if we have sp to spare) per round? I am having a hard time imagining cases when this will be worth it. I don't mean to say that smite is worthless in such a character, but the way I see it, it is more of a defensive tool than an attacking tool. Meaning, while I would hardly ever choose to have such a character go up to the big enemies and smite (at least after I get enough sorcerer levels to get access to good concentration spells; due to metamagic, sorcerers can start shining even from the lower-mid levels, in fact that's when I think they shine the most, after that they drop off until eventually they get wish; though I understand this might be controversial and another discussion entirely). But I would appreciate somewhat smiting as a defensive tool for such a character. Meaning that if this character is cornered (which is something I would try to avoid, just if I was playing any other pure caster), I might not necessarly choose the teleport away option, but instead I might choose to stay put and risk it, hoping that my smite and good AC would be enough to save me (and hopefully prevent my concentration breaking too? big risk).
    Hacks!

  24. - Top - End - #954
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Ah... all these options I forget they exist when it is my turn.
    Don't say that to underestimate their importance though, just to admit that I am not a thinker or creative with my options type of player. At best I remember to dodge or shove, and when there is a very obvious terrain advantage I remember to grapple, but that's about it as far as non-class action options go. In other words, give me a thief rogue (fast hands) or an illusionist to play, and watch me suffer.
    Funnily enough, I started looking towards non-class action options going when I was playing a Zealot Barbarian in a home game. When you don't have a lot of class options, you start getting really creative with the bear traps and nets and ball bearings and even (gasp!) stuff that's not in the PHB.

    Quick question. You mentioned somewhere dimension door. I have a hard time prioritizing this spell over misty step for sorcadins (and I hardly ever find room for both). I can see the advantage in being able to bring someone along with you, or in being able to teleport even further (though maybe I downplay this last one in my head), but is that something you have found to pay off?
    I prepare both of them. Mind you, I hardly have any ranged attack or saving throw options for my Sorceradin. Here is my Sorcerer-side spell list:

    1 - Shield
    2 - Misty Step, See Invisibility
    3 - Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Haste
    4 - Greater Invis, Polymorph, Dimension Door

    When I gain my 9th Sorcerer level, I am grabbing Wall of Stone and swapping out Polymorph for Telekinesis.

    So why do I stan Dimension Door? Two reasons:
    1) The teleportation spells usually need line-of-sight to work, which can really screw you over in a situation of blindness/darkness/being eaten.
    2) Yes, bringing someone else along.

    Do not underestimate the utility of being able to bring someone else with you when you teleport. My most frequent melee partners for my Sorceradin in AL is a Zealot Barbarian and an Oath of Vengeance full-paladin. Being able to drop the hammer immediately on the boss monster with a 1-turn kill has frequently been a gamechanger. Taking out the two alhoons 120 feet away from the frontlines in the first round turns a deadly encounter into a joke.

  25. - Top - End - #955

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    snip
    In my opinion you should treat 2/18 Sorcadin as a Casters with option to go hard on Nova in melee when they need to. Usually there is another character that covers front line tank role.

    2/18 Mostly focuses on spells CC, damage and buffs.

    The only moment he goes berserk is where there is a boss fight mostly. Then you just quicken Haste and attack 2 times, and next turns attack 3 times with Quicken Cantrip. You can also just focus on spells. 2 attacks during boss fights is also not bad. If you quicken Animated Objects or Spirit Guardians in first turn + one attack and then next turns attack 2 times with 2 Booming Blades during your turn with smites + Animated Objects attacking you will still do very respectful Nova/DPR (in 2nd turn) with 10d4 + 40 DPR from AO + 2 attacks for (assuming sword + Shield) 2 2d8+ 8 + 10d8 (Smites) + 4d8 (BB). That total of 145 dmg.

    So while 2/18 is not melee front line Nova Tank like 6/14, he capable of delivering a great melee damage when needed compare to many other melee classes. He also get's access to 9th level spells. A 9th level spell caster who can Smite 2x per turn with AC 19 (without shield) is very strong option.


    Basically 2/18 Sorcadin is more of caster paladin, who prefer to use spells more and stay on range with option to go in melee to deliver pain, while 6/14 is a nova tank that dives into combat with option to cast some good spells.

    Both are builds with different roles in mind. I am fan of 6/14 as I prefer more then "melee" side of Sorcadins.
    Last edited by Alucard89; 2019-04-26 at 11:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    I've played Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X in a game where I couldn't use the Old Favored Soul subclass and I didn't like it much. Your melee damage suffers too much even with the 1d8 bonus. SCAG cantrips as a replacement for Extra Attack were always kind of dicey (because they were only competitive in a world that lacked magical items, which describes few campaigns) and they definitely don't cut it in a post-Xanathar's world. Even on rounds in which I was Quickening a Booming Blade I felt hamstrung because my choices were being pulled between using my bonus action for some tactical advantage like Wrathful Smite or Thunderous Smite or Vow of Enmity or Quickened Blur or whatever or doing decent damage for a round.

  27. - Top - End - #957

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    I've played Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X in a game where I couldn't use the Old Favored Soul subclass and I didn't like it much. Your melee damage suffers too much even with the 1d8 bonus. SCAG cantrips as a replacement for Extra Attack were always kind of dicey (because they were only competitive in a world that lacked magical items, which describes few campaigns) and they definitely don't cut it in a post-Xanathar's world. Even on rounds in which I was Quickening a Booming Blade I felt hamstrung because my choices were being pulled between using my bonus action for some tactical advantage like Wrathful Smite or Thunderous Smite or Vow of Enmity or Quickened Blur or whatever or doing decent damage for a round.
    2/18 is not a melee build. It can melee well when he needs to at cost of resources (Haste + Quickening BB) but it's primary a caster.

    I don't understand however what do magical items have to do with SCAG cantrips being competitive.

  28. - Top - End - #958
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    2/18 is not a melee build. It can melee well when he needs to at cost of resources (Haste + Quickening BB) but it's primary a caster.

    I don't understand however what do magical items have to do with SCAG cantrips being competitive.
    Magical Items always favored having Extra Attack over Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade, even for Sword and Board builds. A Belt of Fire Giant's strength works better with Extra Attack than with Booming Blade, especially if you're lucky enough to get it early.

    However, this difference was so slight outside of Monty Haul games before Xanathar's dropped that it was an acceptable workaround.

    Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
    Level 6 Paladin / 6 Sorcerer Sorceradin, 18 STR:

    2d8 + 8, average 17. <-- Extra Attack
    3d8 + 4, average 17.5 <-- SCAG Cantrip

    Level 6 Paladin / 6 Sorcerer, Belt of Fire Giant's Strength and +2 Longsword:

    2d8 + 18, average 27. <-- Extra Attack
    3d8 + 9, average 22.5. <-- SCAG Cantrip

    Level 6 Paladin / 6 Sorcerer 18 STR, 3rd-level Shadow Blade

    6d8 + 8, average 35. <-- Extra Attack
    5d8 + 4, average 26.5. <-- SCAG Cantrip

    Level 6 Paladin / 9 Divine Soul Sorcerer, Belt of Fire Giant's Strength and a +2 Longsword and Holy Weapon:

    6d8 + 18, average 45. <-- Extra Attack
    5d8 + 9, average 31.4 <-- SCAG Cantrip
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2019-04-26 at 12:29 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #959
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    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Do not underestimate the utility of being able to bring someone else with you when you teleport. My most frequent melee partners for my Sorceradin in AL is a Zealot Barbarian and an Oath of Vengeance full-paladin. Being able to drop the hammer immediately on the boss monster with a 1-turn kill has frequently been a gamechanger. Taking out the two alhoons 120 feet away from the frontlines in the first round turns a deadly encounter into a joke.
    Ah, I see your point. Very aggressive tactics, I like it. I tend to oversimplify things sometimes and I also tend to think a lot more conservatively too I guess. I mean, I like DD, but my inner argument was that I will have misty step for short range teleport, if the enemy is further away I can always fall back to ranged attacks, or I can just focus on anything closer while keeping safe my ranged dpr allies (because obviously a party will have at least one such pc; completely anecdotal, but I haven't yet played at a group that didn't have at least one such character) and they will be the ones bringing down that threat in the distance. But yes, I see your point, and I have to say that I like it. Especially if there is someone else you can bring with you and who can smack hard the enemy you teleported next to. Which is the case for your party.

    This can work great against casters, particularly if one of your allies has or plans to get the sentinel feat. Dimension door allows you to cast it outside the range of a counterspell, so it's easy for you and an ally to appear next to the caster (and with quicken you have also your action to attack and smite with). Assuming the caster plays before your ally (and assuming he survived your round; I mean, smite is good, but you need some luck to one-shot even a caster with just one round of smites), you can deny his teleport with your counterspell (though I guess the caster can always try to counterspell your counterspell; maybe subtle can help here if you don't want to risk it; we can always choose to upcast counterspell though instead), and if the caster tries to move away, there comes in your sentinel ally with a chance to deny that movement (unless of course the enemy disengages and just moves 30 feet, but there is little point in doing that).

    New founded respect for dimension door. Thanks for that.

    ps: About your spell list and more specifically about see invisibility, just a suggestion/reminder. Don't forget you have branding smite from your paladin spell list (2nd level spell). Granted, it doesn't work 100% like see invisibility does, since you have to hit with an attack (an attack which will have disadvantage, though you have two of those, and if you are using sacred weapon you can counteract that penalty somewhat; don't forget that you can use branding smite with a ranged weapon too), but branding smite will benefit everyone, while see invisibility works only for you. I think the ''trade'' is worth it generally (and freeing up one slot on your sorcerer spells is not a small deal either). Of course, you can always use both spells, since see invisibility will allow you a better chance to hit with branding smite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    The only moment he goes berserk is where there is a boss fight mostly. Then you just quicken Haste and attack 2 times, and next turns attack 3 times with Quicken Cantrip.
    ...

    A 9th level spell caster who can Smite 2x per turn with AC 19 (without shield) is very strong option.
    I don't disagree with anything you said. And I had forgotten about haste, so thanks for reminding me. I want to point out two things. First, that haste is very risky. Personally, I'd be very wary of using haste if my concentration was not rock solid. And for a sorcadin with fewer than 6 paladin levels, that requires some extra feat investment. Which means that it is doable, but there is a cost to it. Secondly, that whenever I want to use this tactic so I can go next to a big bad and smite, that's a fight where I can't use my concentration for anything else. And that hurts a lot someone with up to 9th level spells. Granted, most big bads have legendary resistances so that alone eliminates a lot of spells as good candidates for this combat, and there some good non-concentration spells that you might find use for in this combat, but still, I think that's a blow. Maybe it would be less of a blow if you twinned haste (cause after all, using concentration buffs in fights against big bads is not a bad option; there might be better options, but it's not a bad option, if your buff spell is great, and a twinned haste can be great if you have the characters to take advantage from it). But twinning haste hurts your proposed action economy a bit (one less attack for you in the first round), which is not terrible since a benefiting ally might make up for this. But the real problem with this suggested solution (ie twinning haste), is that now you need to find a way to even further boost your concentration, because the fall is double (more than double if you count the sp spent for twinning).

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    I don't understand however what do magical items have to do with SCAG cantrips being competitive.
    They benefit extra attack a bit more, cause you get to add their damage bonus twice instead of once, which would be the case for weapon cantrips. Edit: Ninja'd.
    Last edited by Corran; 2019-04-26 at 12:59 PM.
    Hacks!

  30. - Top - End - #960

    Default Re: Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    They benefit extra attack a bit more, cause you get to add their damage bonus twice instead of once, which would be the case for weapon cantrips. Edit: Ninja'd.
    Wait, but if you quicken with BB you still benefit fully from magical weapon you have, just like extra attack because you make melee weapon attack.

    Longsword +2, attack + quicken BB is just 2d8 + 12 + 2d8 (BB)

    Longsword +2, extra attack is just 2d8 + 12.

    Difference is 2d8 dmg. 3d8 at level 17.

    Sure extra attack + quicken is better though.

    I guess extra benefit more cause you attack more overall with this weapon, correct? Because you have conserve your Quicken uses.

    I also consider 2/18 weaker build than 6/14, though it's still basically a caster on steroids. I recommend 2/18 more to people who wants to play Sorcerer but they wished they had some strong melee option and better AC. Then 2/18 is the answer.

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