Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Arkhios]

Eldritch Smite is also a Level 5 Invocation as well. Meaning that a Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 18 Build can't get access to it.

Oops! Completely forgot about that prerequisite

[Benny89]

Wait, but if you quicken with BB you still benefit fully from magical weapon you have, just like extra attack because you make melee weapon attack.

Longsword +2, attack + quicken BB is just 2d8 + 12 + 2d8 (BB)

Longsword +2, extra attack is just 2d8 + 12.

Difference is 2d8 dmg. 3d8 at level 17.

Sure extra attack + quicken is better though.

I guess extra benefit more cause you attack more overall with this weapon, correct? Because you have conserve your Quicken uses.

I also consider 2/18 weaker build than 6/14, though it's still basically a caster on steroids. I recommend 2/18 more to people who wants to play Sorcerer but they wished they had some strong melee option and better AC. Then 2/18 is the answer.

Actually it's even better cause you can BB as action and Quiken BB as bonus action. At level 11 that is:

Longsword +2 Action BB + Quicken BB is 2d8 + 12 + 4d8
vs
Longsword +2 Attack + Extra attack is 2d8 + 12.

4d8 difference at level 11, 6d8 at level 17. Sure it costs resource to do it, but it's not a weak attacks at all during your turn.

RAW you can cast two cantrips in one turn, so nothing against hitting target with double BB

[Deathtongue]

Actually it's even better cause you can BB as action and Quiken BB as bonus action. At level 11 that is:

...

RAW you can cast two cantrips in one turn, so nothing against hitting target with double BB

Abstractly:
As I gain levels, I've found that I've been increasingly subject to bonus action clog. The Extra Attack + Haste + Quickened BB combo is satisfying, but it's also surprisingly rare. Ironically enough, I reserve that combo for fights where I'm only being moderately challenged for resources. 4 metamagic points and a 3rd-level slot, occasionally burning a 1st for a Shield. Challenging fights often see me using Thunderous / Wrathful Smite or Quickened DD / Protection from Evil and Good / Cure Wounds / Haste / Dimension Door or even just a good ol' Misty Step. Before I trained it out I also used Expeditious Retreat a lot.

[Benny89]

Abstractly:
As I gain levels, I've found that I've been increasingly subject to bonus action clog. The Extra Attack + Haste + Quickened BB combo is satisfying, but it's also surprisingly rare. Ironically enough, I reserve that combo for fights where I'm only being moderately challenged for resources. 4 metamagic points and a 3rd-level slot, occasionally burning a 1st for a Shield. Challenging fights often see me using Thunderous / Wrathful Smite or Quickened DD / Protection from Evil and Good / Cure Wounds / Haste / Dimension Door or even just a good ol' Misty Step. Before I trained it out I also used Expeditious Retreat a lot.

Yes, I fully understand that. As I said 2/18 should be played like caster with an option to go all out when he needs to. I think if someone expects that 2/18 will be non-stop at front line delivering pain in melee- might be dissapointed. So definitely it's worth to explain that to people who would like to take that route.

I personally love 6/14 much more, especially Vengeance/Divine Soul combo. Probably strongest Sorcadin build in game.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Optimal choice at that levels is War Caster

Except for the fact that we can't take War Caster at level 1 because a level 1 Paladin doesn't have any Spellcasting ability.

Optimal choices stay strong and relevant through whole build career.

Except we don't have any feat that stays strong and relevant through the entire build career. Polearm Master is fantastic during levels 1-9, and then starts to fall off, but still being relevant, during levels 10-13, and only starts becoming weak during levels 14+, when you start getting enough resources to start using Quicken Spell reliably in combat.

Resilient (Con)'s boost to Constitution saves only really kicks in when we pick up the Sorcerer side of the build, and we start getting spells that we absolutely need to keep going for a long as possible. A Paladin has Bless, sure. But Bless boosts our Concentration Saves itself, and whilst it's strong, it's not as potent as Hold Person or Haste is. Now, Oath of Conquest and Oath of Vengeance do get Hold Person at level 5, but by then you would have likely picked up War Caster, and the Advantedge is worth far more than a +2, +3 to saves at this point, especially as we get Aura of Protection not long after. As for other Oath's, you need to wait until your getting your 2nd or 3rd level Sorcerer spells at level's 9-11. Which is about the same time that Polearm Master starts falling off funnily enough.

The only feat which you might be able to argue is an optimal choice during the entire 1-20 run, is Lucky. Due to being able to be used in clutch situations to pull your ass out of the fire, either by negating a crit or making that crucial save. Something that helps you even during the later levels. But I would say that Lucky, whilst an undoubtedly strong pick, isn't the 100% must-have level 1 feat pick of a Sorcadin. After all, Lucky simply keeps you alive for a little bit longer in a battle, whilst something like Polearm Master can be used to help end the battles quicker so the entire party can survive.

I don't think I could bring a dolphin to a thread about fish biology, only because of similarity. "But both swim and have fins".

Well no. That would be silly. But comparing say, a Bottlenose Dolphin to a Spinner Dolphin? Or say, a Great White Shark to a Tiger Shark? That makes much more sense, as they have many more similarities than they do differences.

Like how a 2/18 Paladin/Sorcerer Build vs a 2/18 Hexblade/Sorcerer build have more similarities than they do differences

I know this is not relevant with the point you try to make in your answer, so apologies for derailing this a bit.

... Kinda says to me why I prefer the 6/14 Sorcadin build over the 2/18, and that a 2/18 HexSorc, with Repelling Blast to help keep foes at bay does seem to be a better choice over a 2/18 Sorcadin build.

[ChiefBigFeather]

I don't think that having smite on a pal2/sorc18 makes much of a difference.[...]

No offense, but that post is kind of lengthy in regards of the point you are trying to make :)

This Sorcadin is mostly a caster, who doesn't have a feature like Arcane Recovery. Spellslots being at a premium is one of the main complaints people have about the Sorcerer. Smite is a really expensive feature in terms of resources.

No it still doesn't make sense. It' Sorcadin thread, we talk how to optimize Sorcadins (which involves mixing Paladin with Sorcerer for a build). Sorlock can simillar role but that doesn't make it Sorcadin in Sorcadin thread, talking about optimizing Sorcaidn.

Samurai Fighter 12 with Elven Accuracy, 3 Gloom Stalker and 3 Assassin can be said to fill the same role- Nova hard striker, but it has nothing to do with Sorcadin.

Just to point out this build would in first turn deal 20d8 + 80 + 16d6 + 40 in first turn, average of 266 dmg in first turn, out damaging in one turn 2 turns of both Sorlock and Sorcadin. That is without any buff. With Holy Weapon on him he has 338 dmg in first turn.

But again- that has nothing to do with Sorcadin optimization.

That's a straw man argument. Your Fighter/Goom Stalker/Assassin has almost no spells, so he can't possibly fill a role of a build that eventually reaches 9th level spells.

The Sorcadin does not exist in a vacuum. This is an optimization thread. Part of optimization is knowing how your optimization choices compare to other class choices. This is why most Sorcerer optimization guides will tell you not to try to be a Wizard (ofc, the difference there is more obvious then the discussed Sorlock/Sorcadin differences).

[Benny89]

That's a straw man argument. Your Fighter/Goom Stalker/Assassin has almost no spells, so he can't possibly fill a role of a build that eventually reaches 9th level spells.

The Sorcadin does not exist in a vacuum. This is an optimization thread. Part of optimization is knowing how your optimization choices compare to other class choices. This is why most Sorcerer optimization guides will tell you not to try to be a Wizard (ofc, the difference there is more obvious then the discussed Sorlock/Sorcadin differences).

That is straw man argument for straw man argument, making you double-straw man.

You say "Part of optimization is knowing how your optimization choices compare to other class choices". That was comparing to other class choices.

Also I don't see how you optimize Sorcadin without taking levels in Paladin... How that is still Sorcadin and how do you want to optimize Sorcadin without taking levels of Paladin? Please tell me.

"Hey guys, I would like to optimize Roguarian build, any tips?"

"Hey man, sure, don't take any Rogue levels, take Fighter levels instead".

"Thanks for help optimizing my Rogue/Barbarian build! I would never think of not taking Rogue levels in first place to optimize it. You were so helpful!"

Ech...

[paladinn]

Sorry if I've thrown everything into chaos by asking about a sorlocadin build. It just seems to me that 1-2 levels of warlock, especially hexblade, can add a lot of flexibility and power to either paladin or sorcerer; so why not both, even simultaneously?

Granted, it would delay a paladin or a sorcerer by a couple levels. But otherwise, a paladin doesn't have much of a ranged option, especially if one follows the conventional wisdom of "always go 5 levels to get extra attack", and is very MAD. And a low-level sorcerer's main ranged attacks involve the most-resisted form of damage in the game, besides being woefully ill-prepared for any sort of melee. And for all the debate over the usefulness of PAM, it Does give an extra attack, far earlier than level 5.

A sorlocadin build solves all of those issues. If the goal is only to excel in the things that a given class does well and advance in level as rapidly as possible, why MC at all?

Just my $.02. Thanks for the input, guys!

[Benny89]

Sorry if I've thrown everything into chaos by asking about a sorlocadin build. It just seems to me that 1-2 levels of warlock, especially hexblade, can add a lot of flexibility and power to either paladin or sorcerer; so why not both, even simultaneously?

Granted, it would delay a paladin or a sorcerer by a couple levels. But otherwise, a paladin doesn't have much of a ranged option, especially if one follows the conventional wisdom of "always go 5 levels to get extra attack", and is very MAD. And a low-level sorcerer's main ranged attacks involve the most-resisted form of damage in the game, besides being woefully ill-prepared for any sort of melee. And for all the debate over the usefulness of PAM, it Does give an extra attack, far earlier than level 5.

A sorlocadin build solves all of those issues. If the goal is only to excel in the things that a given class does well and advance in level as rapidly as possible, why MC at all?

Just my $.02. Thanks for the input, guys!

You didn't cause any chaos. You still want to take Paladin and Sorc levels. Paladin/Sorc with Lock dip, Fighter dip, Barbarian dip etc. is still Sorcadin, following the basic idea of Sorcadin- Paladin + Sorcerer. It's others that suddenly come here with some old, already discussed tons of times "new" ideas (like PAM) like it's some new best thing and those who suddenly make this thread a "Guide to Sorclock, it's the same role" place.

Your questions was totally valid, so don't worry.

Your build is not bad, it's just not optimized because you delay all stuff heavy. Right now you think "nah, it's only two levels", but believe me - when you will start playing and you will finally get to that 6 level of Paladin (aura + extra attack), then you will get 2 levels of Hex, you will be level 8. Before you will get to level 3 spells of Sorcerer (level 13!) your party will already have leve 7th spells, level 10-12 features/ASI of their classes. You will feel that delay more and more as each next level takes longer to get.

A big part of optimization is "going online", as it's called. That is when the build is fully operational. For casters their spike is mostly at level 5, as it's 3rd level spells, for melee classes that is mostly level 5-6 when Extra attack and features come in. 6/14 Sorcadin is already one of very "late online builds", coming fully operational at level 11, when they have 3rd level spells, extra attack, aura, War Caster/RES (CON) and 20 CHA. Level 11 is really late in DnD 5e as most campaigns/DMs/Players don't play/get tired before level 15+ ever comes.

Most of us don't talk about whole "delaying" thing out of nowhere- it's really very important part and often ignored by players who have their dreamed 5/2/4/8 builds (example) ready in mind, but actually have no idea how-suboptimal they will be for the majority of their charater career.

You have to realize that on level 8 (6 Pala/2 Hex) you will finally have your range attack but at that time if you have any other range character in party (like Fighter Samurai/Battlemaster/Evocation Wizard etc.) they will already have more tools than you to deal with range option. If you will have Warlock in party already- he will be doing what you want to do for last 6 levels.

Also as Sorcadin (especially Vengeance one) you must realize that the only scenario when you will really wish you have range attack will be... flying enemies. But that is all. To any sort of enemies that are on ground but far you can get using your features like Misty Step or Quicken Dimensional Door. Also most encounters in 5e don't get further than on 60ft range to keep it simple on table hex map. Speaking from experience.

So yeah, if you want to go 6/2/12 rounte, go for it, just fully realize all downsides of it. There is a reason why 6/2/12 is never recommended, because as I said- Sorcadin optimization was done to the bone in last years, if that was one of best option- it would be recommend in every munkchin thread about Sorcadin- it's not for a reason.

In the end- it's all about having fun :)

[Aimeryan]

Sorry if I've thrown everything into chaos by asking about a sorlocadin build. It just seems to me that 1-2 levels of warlock, especially hexblade, can add a lot of flexibility and power to either paladin or sorcerer; so why not both, even simultaneously?

Granted, it would delay a paladin or a sorcerer by a couple levels. But otherwise, a paladin doesn't have much of a ranged option, especially if one follows the conventional wisdom of "always go 5 levels to get extra attack", and is very MAD. And a low-level sorcerer's main ranged attacks involve the most-resisted form of damage in the game, besides being woefully ill-prepared for any sort of melee. And for all the debate over the usefulness of PAM, it Does give an extra attack, far earlier than level 5.

A sorlocadin build solves all of those issues. If the goal is only to excel in the things that a given class does well and advance in level as rapidly as possible, why MC at all?

Just my $.02. Thanks for the input, guys!

Paladins are not so MAD as to be problematic, however. Point Buy allows the following arrays: 15, 8, 15, 8, 8, 15 --> 15, 8, 16, 8, 8, 16 with V.Human, or 14, 10, 14, 8, 10, 15 --> 15, 10, 14, 8, 10, 16 with V.Human. Switching to Charisma to attack with those stats just isn't that spectacular compared to the extra delay you introduce to getting Extra Attack, Aura Of Protection, Higher Spells, Higher Spell Slots, etc.

If playing AL, I would avoid HB and just grab one of the Strength replacement items. If not playing AL, it is more tricky as it requires that you know your DM is going to give you one of those items - taking a level of HB at some point in Tier 3 when you wont be delaying key features would probably make sense (your Charisma will be much higher then, too).

Alternatively, if you are rolling stats and can presume to get say a 17 or 18 on one of your rolls, and at least a 14 on two more, then taking a level in HB early can make a lot of sense because the switch is far more impactful. I rolled an 14, 10, 14, 10, 9, 18 when I played mine; somewhat higher than Point Buy, took Half-Elf and had my 15 Strength for Heavy Armour and 20 Charisma right at the start of the game - taking an early level in HB made a lot of sense, here.

If I was to look at taking Hexblade levels early with Point Buy, it may be better to do it something like this:

Character Level	Class Level	Reason
1	Paladin 1	Heavy Armour Proficiency, Lay On Hands
2	Hexblade 1	Eldritch Blast, Hexblade's Curse, Cantrips, Warlock Spell Slots
3	Hexblade 2	Agonising Blast, Warlock Spell Slots
4	Divine Soul 1	Favoured By The Gods, Cleric spells, Spell Slots, More Cantrips
5	Divine Soul 2	Spell Slots
6	Divine Soul 3	Metamagic (Quicken), Level 2 Spells (Spiritual Weapon), Spell Slots
7	Divine Soul 4	ASI/Feat, Spell Slots
8	Divine Soul 5	Level 3 Spells (Spirit Guardians), Spell Slots
9	Paladin 2	Smite, Fighting Style (Defence), Spell Slots
10	Vengeance 3	Vow Of Emnity
11	Vengeance 4	ASI/Feat, Spell Slots
12	Vengeance 5	Extra Attack
13	Vengeance 6	Aura Of Protection, Spell Slots
14 - 19	Divine Soul 6 - 11	Higher level spells, More Spell Slots, More Sorcery Points, ASI/Feat (at Cha Lvl 16, DS 8)
20	Divine Soul 12	Level 6 Spells, Spell Slots as a 15th level caster (inc. Pal), ASI/Feat

You would start off basically as an armoured spell caster, with Eldritch Blast (Agonising) as your primary form of attack. At 8 with Spirit Guardians you would look to dancing on the edge of melee range to damage multiple enemies and hamper their movement options, possibly using GFB/BB. You could start nova'ing bosses once you got Smite at 9, but it would truly come into its own at 12 with Extra Attack, (Twin) Haste/Greater Invis., Quicken BB/GFB. With a good magical weapon you would probably also swap to melee in general once you got Extra Attack and Aura Of Protection (helping to protect the other melee).

I wouldn't use PAM, though. Technically, you could pick it up with V.Human, however, once you hit Character level 5 you would want to use either EB (AB) or GFB/BB - neither would allow the PAM attack. You wouldn't be getting Extra Attack until Character level 12, so grabbing PAM early would be a waste of a Feat for half the levels.

[ChiefBigFeather]

"Hey guys, I would like to optimize Roguarian build, any tips?"

"Hey man, sure, don't take any Rogue levels, take Fighter levels instead".

"Thanks for help optimizing my Rogue/Barbarian build! I would never think of not taking Rogue levels in first place to optimize it. You were so helpful!"

Actually, many threads about "optimizing x" have an aspect of "maybe try class y, it is probably stronger for what you try to do". It is helpful information. Even if someone then decides he still likes x better for some other reason.

Part of optimization is knowing when another class choice is more optimal.

[Fryy]

I would also like feedback on a Warlock/Sorcerer/Paladin multi-class combo which I am leveling. I am considering a 2Hexblade/9AncientsPaladin/9DivineSorcerer build (shown below). I want this character to be well rounded, have high survivability/luck, and be good for the party (auras in particular).

I think this build is very playable from level 2 onwards. But, I would like to get some feedback if anyone thinks there are any issues at early, mid, or late levels.

My plan is to start out a CHA SAD Paladin and bring the 6th/7th level auras online with only a one level delay. The 8th level of Paladin is for the Feat/ASI (War Caster) in preparation for Sorcerer levels.

The 2nd level of Hexblade is for Darkvision. I went Variant Human in order to pick Lucky at level 1. This is my first character with that feat and it has been a lot of fun so far. Also, (as I believe Corran noted earlier) the lucky feat pairs well with Paladin auras.

Assumptions:
(1) restricted to PHB+1, so AL-legal and no SCAG cantrips, and
(2) no guaranteed access to strength-boosting magic items or Goggles of Night

Sub-classes: Hexblade Warlock, Divine Sorcerer, Ancients Paladin
Race: Variant Human, Lucky Feat
Starting Abilities: STR 13, DEX 14, CON 13, INT 10, WIS 9, CHR 16
Level Progression:
1 – 1Pal, Feat: Lucky
2 – 1Hex/1Pal, CHR SAD build; the essentially online at this point
3 – 1Hex/2Pal, Defensive Fighting Style, equipping longsword & shield
4 – 1Hex/3Pal, Oath of Ancients
5 – 1Hex/4Pal, ASI CHA+2 to 18
9 – 1Hex/8Pal, Feat: War Caster (in preparation for Sorcerer multi-class)
10 – 1Hex/8Pal/1Sor
11 – 2Hex/8Pal/1Sor, Devil’s Sight (since Humans don’t have darkvision), Agonizing Blast (3 blasts)
14 – 2Hex/8Pal/4Sor, ASI CHA+2 to 20
18 – 2Hex/8Pal/8Sor, Feat: Resilient CON
20 – 2Hex/9Pal/9Sor

[Alucard89]

Actually, many threads about "optimizing x" have an aspect of "maybe try class y, it is probably stronger for what you try to do". It is helpful information. Even if someone then decides he still likes x better for some other reason.

Part of optimization is knowing when another class choice is more optimal.

While I do understand what you are trying to say, I don't think it is relevant in a thread about specific multiclass build. Also about build that is consider by most DnD 5e community the strongest build in game. I really don't think anything changed after years. Actually Sorcadins became even strongest with Divine Soul addition.

This thread is a guide HOW TO BUILD SORCADIN. Meaning people come here and ask how to build Socradin, how to play Sorcadin, how to progess Sorcadin. How to multiclass Sorcadin. It's not a build about "how to build XXX role".

Also I don't really think Sorcadins needs any more optimization than already well-establish and tested builds- they are already top 3 strongest builds in game.

[Deathtongue]

I would also like feedback on a Warlock/Sorcerer/Paladin multi-class combo which I am leveling. I am considering a 2Hexblade/9AncientsPaladin/9DivineSorcerer build (shown below). I want this character to be well rounded, have high survivability/luck, and be good for the party (auras in particular).

I think this build is very playable from level 2 onwards. But, I would like to get some feedback if anyone thinks there are any issues at early, mid, or late levels.

My plan is to start out a CHA SAD Paladin and bring the 6th/7th level auras online with only a one level delay. The 8th level of Paladin is for the Feat/ASI (War Caster) in preparation for Sorcerer levels.

The 2nd level of Hexblade is for Darkvision. I went Variant Human in order to pick Lucky at level 1. This is my first character with that feat and it has been a lot of fun so far. Also, (as I believe Corran noted earlier) the lucky feat pairs well with Paladin auras.

Assumptions:
(1) restricted to PHB+1, so AL-legal and no SCAG cantrips, and
(2) no guaranteed access to strength-boosting magic items or Goggles of Night

Sub-classes: Hexblade Warlock, Divine Sorcerer, Ancients Paladin
Race: Variant Human, Lucky Feat
Starting Abilities: STR 13, DEX 14, CON 13, INT 10, WIS 9, CHR 16
Level Progression:
1 – 1Pal, Feat: Lucky
2 – 1Hex/1Pal, CHR SAD build; the essentially online at this point
3 – 1Hex/2Pal, Defensive Fighting Style, equipping longsword & shield
4 – 1Hex/3Pal, Oath of Ancients
5 – 1Hex/4Pal, ASI CHA+2 to 18
9 – 1Hex/8Pal, Feat: War Caster (in preparation for Sorcerer multi-class)
10 – 1Hex/8Pal/1Sor
11 – 2Hex/8Pal/1Sor, Devil’s Sight (since Humans don’t have darkvision), Agonizing Blast (3 blasts)
14 – 2Hex/8Pal/4Sor, ASI CHA+2 to 20
18 – 2Hex/8Pal/8Sor, Feat: Resilient CON
20 – 2Hex/9Pal/9Sor

Fry, just some suggestions:
Since you're planning a 'late Bloomer' Sorceradin build, I think a level of Hexblade is justified. I don't think two levels are, though, even for Agonizing Blast. See the earlier comments about ranged attacks. Hex + Eldritch Blast should give you more than enough ranged mojo.

Oath of the Ancients is a fine build, but since you're taking that many levels of Paladin -- have you considered going Oath of Conquest Paladin 9 instead? The post-level 7 Oath of Conquest features synergize strongly with a Sorcerer, especially if you pick up Careful and/or Heightened Spell.

I'd also swap the levels you picked up Resilient: CON and Lucky. And consider swapping out Lucky for Tough. 13 CON doesn't cut it as a frontliner, especially someone with a lot of Warlock or Sorcerer levels.

As far as the darkvision thing goes: I wouldn't worry about it. Having a party being able to operate entirely without light isn't really an advantage in Adventurer's League. The advantage of darkvision, stealth and avoiding the logistics of having/carrying a lightsource, are pretty small -- you're not going to be able to sneak most of the time due to the low-Dex/heavy armor people. And even if you were able to, a lot of encounters are forced/mandatory to progress. The only hardcover adventure where it's a significant advantage is Out of the Abyss.

[Fryy]

Fry, just some suggestions:
Since you're planning a 'late Bloomer' Sorcadin build, I think a level of Hexblade is justified. I don't think two levels are, though, even for Agonizing Blast. See the earlier comments about ranged attacks. Hex + Eldritch Blast should give you more than enough ranged mojo.

Oath of the Ancients is a fine build, but since you're taking that many levels of Paladin -- have you considered going Oath of Conquest Paladin 9 instead? The post-level 7 Oath of Conquest features synergize strongly with a Sorcerer, especially if you pick up Careful and/or Heightened Spell.

I'd also swap the levels you picked up Resilient: CON and Lucky. And consider swapping out Lucky for Tough. 13 CON doesn't cut it as a frontliner, especially someone with a lot of Warlock or Sorcerer levels.

As far as the darkvision thing goes: I wouldn't worry about it. Having a party being able to operate entirely without light isn't really an advantage in Adventurer's League. The advantage of darkvision, stealth and avoiding the logistics of having/carrying a lightsource, are pretty small -- you're not going to be able to sneak most of the time due to the low-Dex/heavy armor people. And even if you were able to, a lot of encounters are forced/mandatory to progress. The only hardcover adventure where it's a significant advantage is Out of the Abyss.

Deathtongue, first off I really appreciate your excellent Bladesinger guide. It was relevant, focused, and just made sense. I used it extensively for my build.

Ok, I understand that 2 levels of Hexblade might not be optimal, particularly in how it delays Sorcerer levels. I have not played Tier 4. Would the 2nd level of Hexblade work as a late Tier 4 add?

Oath of Conquest sounds very strong, but it wouldn't work for this character RP-wise. I am thinking of Quickened and Careful metamagic. Careful to go with Hypnotic Pattern.

As for Feats, I want to keep the Lucky feat for all character levels for the experience. So far it has been great in and out of combat. I could swap to pick up Resilient CON at level 13 and CHA+2 at level 17. I think HP will be good enough up to mid-Tier 3 with the solid AC, good saves, reactions (Shield, Absorb Elements), and Lay On Hands. Also, the character would still have mostly Paladin Hit Dies at that point. I'm more worried about Tier 4 damage. What do you think?

[hboyce1]

Solid thread, man. Thanks for the amazing work. Keep it up.

[Deathtongue]

Ok, I understand that 2 levels of Hexblade might not be optimal, particularly in how it delays Sorcerer levels. I have not played Tier 4. Would the 2nd level of Hexblade work as a late Tier 4 add?

I'm generally of the opinion 'no'. By then, you have enough options to deal with ranged enemies that the upgrades to Eldritch Blast wouldn't help. A lot of the other Hexblade L2 invocations aren't all that good either besides Devil's Sight -- but again, you have better ways to gain this kind of advantage/disadvantage stack AND as mentioned having darkvision isn't all that big of a deal in Adventurer's League.

Oath of Conquest sounds very strong, but it wouldn't work for this character RP-wise. I am thinking of Quickened and Careful metamagic. Careful to go with Hypnotic Pattern.

Fair enough. Oath of the Ancients is very, very strong. It's just that level 9 are something of a waste in my opinion if you're not going Oath of Conquest. Level 8 -- depends on how much I need that ASI. If I was building an Oath of the Ancients Paladin and couldn't force a STR item drop, I'd go something like Paladin 1 -> Hexblade 1 -> Paladin 7 -> Sorcerer 12. I'd be behind 3 levels for my ASI, but I'd be accessing the Good Stuff of the Sorcerer earlier.

As for Feats, I want to keep the Lucky feat for all character levels for the experience. So far it has been great in and out of combat. I could swap to pick up Resilient CON at level 13 and CHA+2 at level 17. I think HP will be good enough up to mid-Tier 3 with the solid AC, good saves, reactions (Shield, Absorb Elements), and Lay On Hands. Also, the character would still have mostly Paladin Hit Dies at that point.

It won't be, trust me. Lucky is a good feat, don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day hit points are the bread and butter of keeping frontliner up and going. I ran into survivability problems in the middle levels with my Bladesinger with SKT -- and they had a 16 CON.

Maybe it's just my style as a Sorceradin; I play a GWM Sorceradin that uses daredevil tactics like teleporting directly into the fray or flying over enemies' heads or using Haste and intentionally eating hits I could've blocked with Shield so I can keep my reaction open for Counterspells. So I need a fat hp stack -- at level 14, even with an 18 CON and the Aid spell at level 6 I only have 153 hit points. Two Fire Giants can still tear through that pretty quickly even with Shield.

[ChiefBigFeather]

Also I don't really think Sorcadins needs any more optimization than already well-establish and tested builds- they are already top 3 strongest builds in game.

They were 3rd or 4th, depending on where you put the druid. Xanathar’s switched it up a bit, the Hexblade is so frontloaded and it‘s SAD is kind of OP. Hexblade works a little better with Bards (especially Blades) and Sorcerers.

But ofc the Sorcadin still makes for very powerful builds, if done decently.

[Alucard89]

They were 3rd or 4th, depending on where you put the druid. Xanathar’s switched it up a bit, the Hexblade is so frontloaded and it‘s SAD is kind of OP. Hexblade works a little better with Bards (especially Blades) and Sorcerers.

But ofc the Sorcadin still makes for very powerful builds, if done decently.

If you count level 20 Druid capstone- I don't think anyone can beat them if we count that. Although without that capstone- Shep Druid is nuts.

I would put however post Xanthar 6 Vengeance Paladin/14 Divine Sorcerer as 2nd strongest build in game right now. On higher levels it's literally unkillable, can decimate any boss solo, has superior saving throws, has both great single target DPR, Nova, AOE dmg + CC, access to Revifify, Heal, Greater Restoration and more, free advantage, extended perma buffs to party (Death Ward + Aid).

3rd I would probably go for both Bardlock and Sorlock. First one is tons of utility, jack of all trades and second one is upgraded Sorcerer and Warlock, getting best of all worlds when it comes to spellcasting + DPR/Nova and synergy.

4th I would probably go with some martial MCs, like Samurai/Gloom/Assassin or good old Xbow BM. But here competition becomes more severe.

[Fryy]

I'm generally of the opinion 'no'. By then, you have enough options to deal with ranged enemies that the upgrades to Eldritch Blast wouldn't help. A lot of the other Hexblade L2 invocations aren't all that good either besides Devil's Sight -- but again, you have better ways to gain this kind of advantage/disadvantage stack AND as mentioned having darkvision isn't all that big of a deal in Adventurer's League.

Fair enough. Oath of the Ancients is very, very strong. It's just that level 9 are something of a waste in my opinion if you're not going Oath of Conquest. Level 8 -- depends on how much I need that ASI. If I was building an Oath of the Ancients Paladin and couldn't force a STR item drop, I'd go something like Paladin 1 -> Hexblade 1 -> Paladin 7 -> Sorcerer 12. I'd be behind 3 levels for my ASI, but I'd be accessing the Good Stuff of the Sorcerer earlier.

It won't be, trust me. Lucky is a good feat, don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day hit points are the bread and butter of keeping frontliner up and going. I ran into survivability problems in the middle levels with my Bladesinger with SKT -- and they had a 16 CON.

Maybe it's just my style as a Sorceradin; I play a GWM Sorceradin that uses daredevil tactics like teleporting directly into the fray or flying over enemies' heads or using Haste and intentionally eating hits I could've blocked with Shield so I can keep my reaction open for Counterspells. So I need a fat hp stack -- at level 14, even with an 18 CON and the Aid spell at level 6 I only have 153 hit points. Two Fire Giants can still tear through that pretty quickly even with Shield.

Thanks. I think I will still probably go to Paladin 8 rather than Paladin 7 because the delay to Feats/ASI's will hurt too much throughout most levels (i.e. from level 9 and onwards). Plus getting War Caster at level 9 (1Hex, 8Pal) just prior to Sorcerer levels seems timely.

Regarding Hit Points, I think a sword&board defense Sorcadin would need less Hit Points than a 'daredevil GWM' Sorcadin. So, I will try to sit on 13 CON until bumping it to 14 CON at level 13... which is still low, but I'll have Death Ward at level 16.

Regarding Paladin 9: Yeah, you're right. Going to Pal 9 is only assuming a 2Hex/9Sorc/9AncientsPal build... since I believe that 9Sor/9Pal is the same spell slots as 10Sor/8Pal but 9Sor/9Pal gets 3rd level Paladin spells (i.e. Aura of Vitality). However, if going only 1Hex, then I agree that 1Hex/11Sorc/8Ancients is better than 1Hex/10Sorc/9Pal.

[paladinn]

If I was building an Oath of the Ancients Paladin and couldn't force a STR item drop, I'd go something like Paladin 1 -> Hexblade 1 -> Paladin 7 -> Sorcerer 12. I'd be behind 3 levels for my ASI, but I'd be accessing the Good Stuff of the Sorcerer earlier.

Is it good to put off Paladin 2 until the 3rd level? Pal 2 is where the smiting comes in; and isn't that one of the main points of having a Paladin?

Is it the general consensus that only one level of Hexblade is desirable? Granted, that's enough to become Cha-SAD; but then EB will never be what it could be. There won't be a good ranged option until level 10. Or is EB without AB worth the dip?

Just musing out loud.. At some point I'd probably want HB 2 - just not sure when.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Is it the general consensus that only one level of Hexblade is desirable? Granted, that's enough to become Cha-SAD; but then EB will never be what it could be. There won't be a good ranged option until level 10. Or is EB without AB worth the dip?

Just musing out loud.. At some point I'd probably want HB 2 - just not sure when.

The question isn't really if you should pick up HB 2, as if you want it, you should go for it for sure, and Agonizing Blast's ranged damage is nothing to sneeze at in the slightest. Even if a Sorcadin build is primarily a melee combatant. The main debate seems to be when you can pick up HB 2 in order to take advantage of what the 2nd level in Hexblade actually has to others.

Some people argue that it should be around 11+ when the Cantrips upgrade again and you have 3 EB rays to fire off and empower with AB. Personally, I think you should take it right after HB 1, in order to get that second short-rest spell slot, as well as Agonizing Blast, even if it doesn't quite kick in until level 5. Sure, it delays your other abilities, but an extra short-rest spell slot is a powerful ability, even if restricted to level 1,

[ChiefBigFeather]

If you count level 20 Druid capstone- I don't think anyone can beat them if we count that. Although without that capstone- Shep Druid is nuts.

I would put however post Xanthar 6 Vengeance Paladin/14 Divine Sorcerer as 2nd strongest build in game right now. On higher levels it's literally unkillable, can decimate any boss solo, has superior saving throws, has both great single target DPR, Nova, AOE dmg + CC, access to Revifify, Heal, Greater Restoration and more, free advantage, extended perma buffs to party (Death Ward + Aid).

The Druid has various very powerful levels. It‘s powercurve is a little odd though, it fluctuates way more then other classes‘. That‘s why I think they are hard to rate.

I disagree with your assessment of the 6/14 Sorcadin. I‘m not fond of it‘s sustained damage and CC capabilities. MAD, spell selection and poor initiative are the main hindrances. Still a very versatile support tank, but a little lackluster in the party roles I favor: Striker and Controller. I think the 5e rules favor preemptive characters, but maybe I‘m just biased there.

[Deathtongue]

I disagree with your assessment of the 6/14 Sorcadin. I‘m not fond of it‘s sustained damage and CC capabilities. MAD, spell selection and poor initiative are the main hindrances. Still a very versatile support tank, but a little lackluster in the party roles I favor: Striker and Controller. I think the 5e rules favor preemptive characters, but maybe I‘m just biased there.

If you want a Controller style of Sorceradin, I recommend an Oath of Conquest 7 / Sorceradin X type of Paladin. If you want them to be more Striker-flavored, grab a Polearm with a side-order of Great Weapon Master.

Read up on the Wall of Fear guide for an idea of how it plays.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...th-of-Conquest

[Swosh]

Im a bit suprised that pure Sorcadin with the exception of hexblade seems to be the only multiclass option people are discussing. In my opinion Sorcerer lvl 7 spells known is quite lackluster and can easily be replaced by other far superior abilities. The only real loss of multiclassing out is loss of spells slots, 14 sorcerer ability, ASI and sorcerer points. Personally i think there are many viable multiclass options that includes:

2 to 3 lvls Fighter - with either Battlemaster or Champion as the big contenders.
3 to 5 lvls Bard - with either Sword or Whisperer as the big contenders.


Fighter multiclass:
+Fighting Style
+Action Surge
For Crit-Fishing build the Champion will stand out, beeing able to have a 19% chance to crit with advantage is quite good and we all know how devestating a smite crit can be.
Battlemaster build provides more controll with those manuvers.


Bard multiclass:
If you like nova, i would think Bard-Whisperer is a strong one, beeing able to use those bardic inspiration die for extra damage. 2d6 or 3d6.
Sword Bard provides some nice defense in blade flourish and an extra fighting style.

The biggest advantage with multiclassing into bard is that you dont lose your spell slots, and you get more spells known which is awesome.

If you count level 20 Druid capstone- I don't think anyone can beat them if we count that. Although without that capstone- Shep Druid is nuts.

Your druid has no chance vs a wizard (high lvl). Wish, Simulacrum, Contingency, Forcecage etc. etc.

[GreyBlack]

I currently have a character concept of a paladin devoted to preserving and defending magic from those who would abuse and misuse it. I'm so happy for this guide to help me realise this concept.

[Fryy]

I currently have a character concept of a paladin devoted to preserving and defending magic from those who would abuse and misuse it. I'm so happy for this guide to help me realise this concept.

What's your build/plan if you dont mind sharing?

[Fryy]

Does anyone have advice on the best attuned magic items for a Sorcadin? for longsword/shield builds? for GWM builds?

Ring of Evasion might be interesting to shore up a relatively weak DEX Save. This is assuming you used the Resilient feat for WIS or CON end up proficient in both WIS and CON but not DEX.

[GreyBlack]

What's your build/plan if you dont mind sharing?

Looking at Ancients Paladin 7/Wild Sorcerer 13, with heavy emphasis on defensive and anti-mage abilities like Counterspell, Absorb Elements, and Dispel Magic. Might grab the Mage Slayer feat to really lean into the concept. I don't have access to my full build right now; will post when home.

[Alucard89]

Im a bit suprised that pure Sorcadin with the exception of hexblade seems to be the only multiclass option people are discussing. In my opinion Sorcerer lvl 7 spells known is quite lackluster and can easily be replaced by other far superior abilities. The only real loss of multiclassing out is loss of spells slots, 14 sorcerer ability, ASI and sorcerer points. Personally i think there are many viable multiclass options that includes:

2 to 3 lvls Fighter - with either Battlemaster or Champion as the big contenders.
3 to 5 lvls Bard - with either Sword or Whisperer as the big contenders.


Fighter multiclass:
+Fighting Style
+Action Surge
For Crit-Fishing build the Champion will stand out, beeing able to have a 19% chance to crit with advantage is quite good and we all know how devestating a smite crit can be.
Battlemaster build provides more controll with those manuvers.


Bard multiclass:
If you like nova, i would think Bard-Whisperer is a strong one, beeing able to use those bardic inspiration die for extra damage. 2d6 or 3d6.
Sword Bard provides some nice defense in blade flourish and an extra fighting style.

The biggest advantage with multiclassing into bard is that you dont lose your spell slots, and you get more spells known which is awesome.




Your druid has no chance vs a wizard (high lvl). Wish, Simulacrum, Contingency, Forcecage etc. etc.

You totally have no idea what 6/14 Sorcadin can do. Wish is the big balance-breaker, and I will agree on that. But before Wish there is nothing that can really challange or match sorcadin. Wish is a big deus ex machine but it only comes on level 9th spells.

However if you can't see why 6/14 Sorcadin is considered by many most powerful build in game than you simple have not played one or never seen one being played.

Years of 5e has established that and if you think 7th level spells are luckluster, that is because you are closed in "caster" archetype. 6/14 is meleee Nova destroyer that can support himself with tons of utility and upcasted spells. You seem to stuck on "Wish/Simularcrum" effect, which if fine but you only consider that.

This is not PvP game. In any 1v1 a Wish user can easly win a fight. However DnD is not PvP game. Believe me in actually hard adventure day a Sorcadin will do much more and be much more effective for whole day that Wish caster.

People need to get out side of 1/day Wish usage as the milestone of powerbuilding as it's illusive power in real-gameplay scenario.