Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[bendking]

What is optimal on Sorcadins: War Caster/RES(CON), maxing CHA to 20 as fast as possible.

It seems you assume in this comment and others that you can take War Caster on first level with V.Human, which you definitely can't if starting out as a Paladin.
Thus, you would always have to take War Caster at level 4, delaying your 20 CHA to level 14.
At that point, it seems to make sense to just take Half-Elf and get Elven Accuracy at level 10 to bump yourself to 18 CHA with super advantage, and then get 20 CHA as usual at level 14, wouldn't it?
EDIT: Perhaps then it would also make sense to dip into Hexblade 1 to get +2 attack & damage to melee at level 15.

[Corran]

Boss Encounter:
So I did a little more digging and the biggest drawback about Contagion seems to be the number of legendary creatures that are immune to the poisoned condition mid-late game. From DnD beyond about 50% of the legendary creatures from lvl 10 and upwards are immune to the poisoned condition.

Hmm.... this does not help contagion's case. So now, to make it work, we need 3 conditions to be satisfied:
1) DM rules that contagion guarantees 3 turns of disadvantage.
2) Find a way to make the affected enemy target someone with high effective AC (a sorcadin definitely qualifies). This is the trickiest part imo. This point alone merits a lot of discussion.
3) Assuming 1&2 are satisfied, this plan is restricted to enemies not immune to the poisoned condition (so we cut down by half the number of encounters where this spell would be useful, per what you said).

So it's difficult to pull it off, but if we happen across enemies where contagion would satisfy 1,2 and 3, then it might be a great way to deal with these fights. Is it worth it to specialize that much? Honestly, I dunno. If 1&2 are satisfied (and 2 has small margin of error), I would be tempted to say yes, because that's what I would call a winning strategy (defense skyrockets without relying on concentration and without having to take attacks away from smiting), and I value a winning strategy even if it only applies against about half the legendary creatures. But that's a big if. And my guess is that it will be hard to satisfy it in actual play as it would need a lot of buy in and planning around. It might be worth it looking for old threads about contagion or for starting a new thread on it, cause I am sure you can get lot of more input on it than just from me that I have never even used it.

Boss Encounter:
I totally agree with the Wrathful Smite, definitely a useful spell in the early game against difficult monsters that doesnt have legendary resistances. The Bless spell however is nice, but is it really worth concentrating on a 1st lvl spell at high lvl during legendary boss fights? Losing concentration shouldn't really be an issue with Resilient CON + Aura of Protection. With a starting stat of 16 CON (+3 modifier), the CON save will be 6 + 5 + 3 = 14. Which means a 100% guaranteed save on a 15. That is 30 damage guaranteed save. Add maybe a few magical items into the mix Cloak of Protection/Ring of Protection and thats a guaranteed save of 17, aka 34 damage.

Let's back up a little. What are the best ways one could go about defeating legendary creatures? Off the top of my head, I'd say:
1) Damage, most likely combined with some mobility
2) Buffing
3) CC that does not depend on failing saves combined with tanking
4) Summons (which is sort of a combination of 1 & 3)
5) Maybe some rare debuff options that don't rely too much on the enemy failing saves.

We've got tools in some of these categories anyway, but looking specifically at our concentration options things are more limited. Mainly our concentration will most likely be limited to further boosting damage or buffing in some way during such fights (assuming we even choose to concentrate on sth), and that's due to the lack of good options in the other three categories (at least as far as I can tell). Now, if you are going with vengeance as your oath, using your concentration to further boost damage (so using sth like a shadow blade or a twinned haste) has merit, because these spells play well with your channel divinity. And VoE is nicely suited to be used against legendary creatures, which you'll want to bring down fast. If you feel confident about maintaining your concentration, these are probably your best options. I say probably, because bless has value that can be easy to miss when not knowing what our allies and the enemy will be doing. So bless might not push your own damage to an upcast shadow blade levels (depending on the enemy's AC and due to smiting, it may not come too short though), but it will help a SS fighter land more of their attacks, it will help the spellcaster keep concentration on a cc/summoning/whatever spell that might be the key to a winning strategy, it can help protect allies from sth like an upcast hold person with which the death knight will start against you, or with a rogue's saving throw against fear that will take away their sneak attack, etc etc. I am not saying that bless is strictly the best spell for you in such fights, I am trying to highlight though that it is easier to combine it with what allies are doing, or to pose it against what enemies are doing, to get a lot of value out of it. But yeah, if I was going with a vengeance sorcadin, I would probably keep bless as a back up so that it can be used in certain situations, and I would pick one concentration damage spell for my main spell when I want to combine concentration with VoE (so haste if using a two hander, holy weapon if I have PAM, or any of the previous ones or shadow blade if S&B).

Regarding concentration, it is difficult to talk generally about it. Because it's not easy to judge if the reward justifies the risk, and because determining the risk and the reward in the first place is difficult without making several determinations about at least what it is that we are fighting. For example, do I spend an action and 3sp to twin a haste when there is a 50% chance to lose concentration on it? How about if there is 30% chance to lose concentration on it? Hard to say for sure, without knowing how impactful a twinned haste would be during that fight. Same holds for say, a 7th level shadow blade or a 6th level banishment or anything else. It's hard to say for sure. Just keep in mind that there are certain enemies that will be able to deal to you enough damage to challenge your concentration, such as a caster targeting you with a disintegrate, or a dragon's breath, etc. We have tools to mitigate some of these attacks (shield, absorb elements, counterspell, auras), but even then, the resulting damage can be enough to make chancing it a bad choice. Falling back to just tanking with shield and smiting with slots might be the best choice (cause the risk of spending both resources and actions on sth you might lose, might just not be worth it). I know that if for example I was playing a vengeance sorcadin and say I had picked haste as my main concentration damage spell, there would be some legendary creatures against which I might prefer a quickened bless to a twinned haste. In the end, this is not an easy decision to make, unless you are very familiar with the enemy's stat block of course and you have a couple of minutes to do some math on the spot; and even then, you are guesstimating), so I am saying all this mostly to make sure you are aware of the associated cost of concentration when up against enemies that, like you, can spike their damage.

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Horde Encounter:
Careful spell is definitely a nice addition when you cant blast with Fireball/Synaptic Static, but has a few drawbacks. The first one being its spell selection is very limited (basically only Hypnotic Pattern, Fear and Synaptic Static where you do take some damage but avoid the debuff) and the 2nd being that you cant include yourself. The 2nd drawback might not seem like a big deal since you normally can just move 30 feet away before casting, but if you are restrained or perhaps surrounded by many creatures you will provoke lots of opportunity attacks if you try and get away.

I don't mind not having several spells to combine careful with. All I need is one, so that I can go from 0 to 1 options when I don't have a clean shot at a horde of enemies. Maybe grabbing a second (confusion) if I am worried that I will come against charm/fear immune enemies often enough. Otherwise, stacking options is of very little value, especially given the limited number of picks that a sorcerer gets. Meaning, that I don't really care to end up with 3 different options for a winning strategy, but I care to end up with various winning strategies each of which works for sufficiently distinct combat scenarios.

Good point about careful not allowing to exclude yourself. Didn't know about that. I am curious if it's because the book is different than from online sources (because I don't have the books with me to check, and it surprises me that I was doing careful wrong all this time; will ask in the RAW thread (Q 310) for my own peace of mind, but till then I will take for granted what you said). That definitely complicates things for sorcadins with careful hypnotic pattern (I guess extra points for devotion or halfelf as a race), because they'll probably want to be in the thick of it before using hypnotic pattern. For no devotion/halfelf, including ourselves in a hypnotic pattern casts will put us roughly at a 65% to succeed. Bad odds. You have alternatives in careful fear and spirit guardians though. And besides, as far as I remember, careful might even not be a choice for your build, depending on if you went with shadow blade or haste (twinned) for your main damage boosting spell.

Horde Encounter:
As for Spirit Guardians i would think that it has other applications other than just against hordes? What if there is a Boss encounter with supporting creatures. Then Spirit Guardians would deal a lot more damage than a Haste would. Potentially since the duration is 10 minutes you might squeeze in 2-3 combats against normal foes for some resource economic. In addition Spirit guardians does make it difficult for enemies to get away from you, where dashing out often seems to be the only option.

Oh yes, definitely. Splitting encounters in just the three types that I did was nothing but an oversimplification. Spirit guardians is a good spell regardless on if it's just hordes, or hordes with a few strong lieutenants, or hordes with a boss, etc. Just as long as you can hit several creatures with it, you wont go wrong.

I have two minor issues with spirit guardians. Firstly, that it doesn't have any significant synergy with any of the features of most typical sorcadins (conquest probably being the exception). Secondly, we have the option (through our selection of spells) to pick options that will perform better than spirit guardians under various situations. That's the main reason I included it as an anti-horde spell in my previous post. Because that's the fight where SG can outshine most other spells ie when we need friendly AoE damage. But friendly AoE damage is usually not the best solution when the enemy does not have numbers. It wont be a bad spell when you are up against 4-5 strong enemies, or when up against 1 very strong and a few more strong enemies, but there are better ways to deal with these fights than simply relying on friendly AoE damage. It's a good catch-em-all option, meaning that you can use it in almost every fight (for that reason it makes a great back up option), but where it truly shines is when you are up against many opponents (as any damage AoE spell). Moreover, positioning yourself to catch more enemies inside the SG radius, plays contrary to what a vengeance sorcadin might want to do, that is to move close to the biggest threat and take it down fast. If you are focusing on damage, then yeah, definite pick I would say. But if you want it to be your go-to spell, then it's probably better to ply a cleric. Or use your spell slots mainly as fuel for smite.


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Few strong enemies (No legendary resistance):
You make some good points, i had totally forgotten about this encounter type. I totally agree Hold Monster and Banishment are very solid options in this scenario. Particularly upcasting to making them stick to some of them. Im curious which spell do you think is better Hold Monster or Banishment? I was first inclined to say Hold Monster because of the neat combo you can do as a Sorcadin, but Banishment totally removes them from the fight all together and isn't that better than dealing pure damage?

Each has its pros and cons. Different saves, banishment allows one more target and you get it earlier.
Yes, banishment completely removes (in most cases) the affected enemies during combat, but eventually they will come back and you will need to face them. Hold monster places more burden to your action economy I the short term (because the party will choose to spend actions against the paralyzed enemies), but it's less risky to count on sth that has immediate return (while with banishment, if you cannot time the return of the banished enemies -such as because you fell unconscious or lost concentration 1 or 2 rounds later, then you get less out of the spell).

Honestly, for me it's just preference. I like hold monster more, because it allows me to bring smite into play more often.

Few strong enemies (No legendary resistance):
There is also another spell that might be beneficial in this category and that is Synaptic Static. Depending on what creatures you meet of coarse, but if your up against brutes as you call them Synaptic Static might have the potential to change the fight, and is particularly effective because it doesnt require concentration and brutes usually have a very bad intelligence save.

Agreed. Synaptic static is a very good spell.

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Ranged options:
In certain situation particularly in the early game when you don't have many fancy spells, a ranged option seem quite necessary to have. Its important to note that when looking for a ranged cantrip its range needs to be sufficient enough that its worth it. I see only two options that has a range of 120. Fire Bolt and Chill Touch. Of the two I'm inclined to say that Chill Touch seems to be the best option. It deals slightly less damage than Fire Bolt, but in return it deals necrotic instead of fire (less resisted) and also has some minor bonuses. What do you think? whats your preferred ranged option?

My personal favorite is ray of frost, because it has a chance of denying to an enemy its attack(s). But as you said, having an option with better range is important. Between chill touch and firebolt, I have chosen chill touch more times, but I think that I would probably pick firebolt for most of my sorcadins now. The reason is that for a sorcadin, attacking from range is just a back up option. If it was my main method of attacking, and thus I would be relying a lot more on keeping my distance from the enemies, I might choose chill touch, so that I can combine avoiding fire resistance (which is common) with keeping my distance.

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Lastly I've been thinking about the Silence spell for a while and I think it is way underrated as a Sorcadin. You have the option to Quicken a Silence spell against a spellcaster, then follow it up with a grapple. This will leave the spellcaster utter useless and cant even get away with teleportation spells which requires a verbal component. Spellcasters are also normally medium sized and have have terrible STR and decent DEX but no proficiency in either Athletics or Acrobatics. This makes them an easy target especially once you pick up the extra attack. Additionally if you have the subtle spell metamagic you can even cast spells while grappling inside the Silence. Imagine fighting against a Lich, this would end the fight before it even had started. His only option without spells would be Paralyzing Touch which you can counteract with a Subtle Shield spell. What do you think am i missing something or is the Silence spell just underrated?

It's difficult to make silence work. First, you need a free hand to grapple. Secondly, you already have good weapons against casters, in smite and counterspell. Thirdly, the biggest problem against casters is managing to get in melee range with them, so action economy and bonus action casting can present a problem (despite being able to silence and have two attempts at grappling during the same round). Moreover, a lot of our own defenses depend on using spells, like shield, absorb elements and counterspell. That's because even if we manage to silence and grapple the wizard, what are we doing against other enemies (say the wizard's shield golem) that come after us? We could pick subtle as a metamagic to avoid that, but that probably pushes this strategy till after we have 10 sorcerer levels. All in all, I think that finding ways to get close enough to smite and counterspell is a more straightforward and effective way of dealing with casters. I don't completely discount silence, though it would take some very well thought out trick (of which I am not aware at this moment; I guess that sentinel is likely to be part of any such plan) to convince me that it's worth it for a sorcadin.

[bendking]

@Corran, I would be curious to know what your spell selection would be, if you would mind sharing.
For the purpose of this, let's say Crown Oath & Divine Soul, going for a Sword & Shield defensive build, as you seem to favor

[Storyteller_Arc]

I'm personally not confident that Divine Soul is worth picking up honestly. Far to many good Sorcerer spells already. Maybe at the later levels of Sorcerer? But its not too good at the early levels.

[Corran]

@Corran, I would be curious to know what your spell selection would be, if you would mind sharing.
For the purpose of this, let's say Crown Oath & Divine Soul, going for a Sword & Shield defensive build, as you seem to favor

Spoiler

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Crown is weird. It is the best choice when you are the sole tank (because of champion's challenge), and it is very so-and-so when you are not.

Sorcadins can become great lobsters, that is boost their defenses (with emphasis on AC; though with aura of protection and favored of the gods -and if you want to really push it, pick vhuman and choose lucky as the starting feat- their saves can be very good too). The problem with that is that you must also give a reason to the enemies to target you. OK, we can get strong OA's with warcaster, BB and smites -or alternatively we could grab sentinel, though since warcaster, BB and smites are things I would have on a S&B build, I think I wouldn't bother with sentinel), but this is usually not enough. That's where champion's challenge comes in. It does not require concentration and it is a single save. That's hard to find in one feature. It's not wall of force, but it's the best thing I can see a sorcadin getting. So, with that in mind, I would certainly focus on getting some spells that will allow me to tank well. Enter shield, absorb elements, protection from evil and good (either as a paladin prepared spell or as my ds extra pick), and blur/greater invisibility.

But then, there will be encounters during which my CD will not be available. And in a party where I am the sole tank, I think I would want to use my concentration during these encounters for providing some additional (to what my allies are doing) battlefield control (unless the DM is generous enough to have the enemies focus exclusively me, so I stick with the concentration buffs I mentioned previously; but eh...). So, I'd look at getting probably up to 2 of the following options: web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern, fear, wall of fire, wall of stone. Meaning, I still want to tank enemies, but I take out some of the focus on making me a tougher tank and putting it into trying to divert enemy attention to me or trying to completely take actions away from enemies that would want to go for the squishy allies. With divine soul, my favorite is web with freedom of movement. Meaning, if I cannot use my channel divinity to lock a foe, or if my CD failed, then I will have web be my back up. So I try to catch that enemy (or as many enemies) into it, and if I caught something strong in it, I might as well go inside so that I will give it more incentive to spend its actions fighting me inside the web, than trying to escape it and become a more serious bother to my allies. As long as I am fighting inside the web I have little to worry about, and there is a little bonus in that I can try to draw some more enemies into it with lightning lure, if I really want to. I'd still pick an alternative to web, cause webs can get burned or for when fighting sth very dexterous. Careful hypnotic pattern/fear (Swosh raised a serious concern about creful HP in his previous post though) would probably be my alternative (I like wall of stone more, but needing a stone surface is a bother; definite pick if I was playing through sth like dungeon of the mad mage or the tomb of the nine gods part of tomb of annihilation).
ps: Forgot about watery sphere. That's a good spell too, and I think it would work great when you have many squishy allies.
pps: If spirit guardians ends up drawing aggro at your table (have seen DM's tendencies for either having the monsters focus on the character concentrating on SG, or having the monsters run away from him).

I'd pick sanctuary for when defending choke points (which would be my go-to plan with such a party, at least whenever we could do so), but also for helping squishy allies against threats that resisted/bypassed my cc options (channel divinity and spells). And I would be tempted by mass cure wounds, because it has value in a party with many squishes and because I could even combine it with my other CD option for good healing in occasions such as after the party being hit by a strong damage AoE. Though I am not sure if I would find enough room for it on my spell list.
Strangely enough I would probably avoid healing word, cause unless it competes with the slots I want to use with shield, and with such a build I would want as many 1st lvl slots I could get my hands on; probably dipping 1 or 2 lvls in warlock even, mainly for the s/r rechargeable spell slots; armor of agathys is not a bad addition either).

One or two AoE's (I like vitriolic sphere if I also end up picking web; though in a vacuum, I'd say that fireball and one more of a different damage type are the safest choices). One teleport option if I can fit it (although this is not a priority for this build). Heal at later levels for sure. Maybe one of banishmet/hold monster if no ally has access to them (or if they have better things to concentrate on).

Let's do a count. Let's say, paladin (crown) 6/ sorcerer (divine soul) 12/ warlock (hexblade) 2. I make it easier on myself as this way I do not have to think about the 7th level spells; also because thanks to 1 less high level spell slot and thanks to AoA, I can create a list with less emphasis on high level spells. So, what's that, 12 sorcerer spells plus one more from being a ds, 3 hexblade spells and 8 prepared paladin spells?

Sorcerer
1) Sanctuary
2) Absorb elements
3) Web
4) Misty Step
5) Hypnotic pattern
6) Counterspell
7) Spirit guardians
8) Freedom of Movement
9) Greater invisibility
10) Banishment
11) Synaptic Static
12) Heal
* ds) Protection from evil and good

Hexblade
1) Armor of agathys
2) Hex
3) Shield

Paladin
1) Wrathful Smite
2) Thunderous Smite
3) Cure Wounds
4) ?
5) ?
6) ?
7) Aid
8) Lesser Restoration
oath) Command
oath) Compelled duel
oath) Warding bond
oath) Zone of truth

Or sth like that. I am sure there are ways to improve the list above anyway.
Sth I would like to note, is that I think it's worth to pay attention to how you will use your slots, at least to the extent you are comfortable to predict. It's easier to do that with the higher level spell slots, because they are just a few of them. So, I look at these slots: 5th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th. With the spells selected, I could easily see me using them like this: 5th (armor of agathys), 5th (synaptic static), 6th (heal), 7th (banishment or another heal), 8th (any of the ones mentioned). Or sth like that. That's one reason why I omitted mass cure wounds from my known spells, that is because I think I have good ways of spending these slots without counting on it (also because I don't think it will be often that I will choose to use my CD for healing). But if I was in a party that lacked combat healing, then I would probably squeeze mass cure wounds in there (even if I ended up having to drop synaptic static). That's why I also didn't involve healing word (which would be a useful spell in this set up). Because it competes with shield, on which I might want to count a lot for this set up (also with absorb elements and sanctuary).

Bottom line, the idea behind this build is simple. Bump defenses (AC = shield, greater invisibility, protection from evil, warlock dip; Resistances = absorb elements; HP = heal, armor of agathys, lay on hands of 30-45; Saves = aura of protection, favored of the gods, lucky; Spells = counterspell; Concentration is already solid, thanks to aura of protection, warcaster and FotG), so that you can hold firm when either through your CD or because of tactics (eg choke point, so for that alone sanctuary is a good pick; though it's also useful when you have many squishies) you tank most of the enemies. If I fight an encounter on these term, it's a win.

Secondly, build your control options (in practice, that means sacrificing a defensive boost because you will be no longer concentrating on greater invisibility/protection from evil; lowering our defense acts a bit as giving more incentive to the enemies to target you), so that you can try and create incentives for the enemies to come after you (for when your CD is not available, or if it happens to fail miserably) or for debuffing enemies that will ignore you and try to go for your allies. Enter spells like web, hypnotic pattern, fear, wall of fire, watery sphere etc. I'd pick 2 such spells, because warcaster + BB + smites only works against one enemy per round.

Then you build for contingencies, synergies (if there are to be found) and versatility.
For example, what happens if we are ambushed and I cannot protect my allies with my CD or cc spells? Spirit guardians might be a good option, seeing as I might not be able to force the enemies to attack me, I might as well kill them faster so they don't drop my allies, probably giving them more incentive to target me with SG on (SG is not the only option, but you get the idea). Enemy boss that proves too much for my defenses? Smite. Sometimes I might have the option to blast, so I grab one or two damage AoE's (so that I can soften enemies before I tank them). Few tough enemies? Grab sth like banishment so that you can cut the battle in half (similar effect to tanking with sth like blur, though the banishment type of solution is more versatile and can also act as a backup against enemies that go for your squishies instead of you). Lack healing? Grab mass cure wounds (though be careful not to overload your list with spells that use the high level slots). Lack out of combat healing and revivify? Probably go up to paladin 9, for a final build of pal9/sorc11 or pal9/warl2/sorc9, depending on if you value getting sorc spells and sp faster (and eventually access to the heal spell) vs the stuff that a couple levels of warlock can give you. If you have any room left in your spells known, fill them up with spells that perhaps were not vital to our plan, but are good spells anyway (so stuff like death ward, spiritual weapon, animate objects, holy weapon, etc, with emphasis probably on the ones not using concentration).

[Swosh]

@Corran

Boss Encounters:
Yes, Contagion seems very situational now and it might be better to try and find a better spell against boss encounters with legendary resistances. Haste as you mentioned can be a problem against spike damage, but also against fights that lasts over 1 minute. Greater Invisibility has the problem of not working against creatures with blindsight or truesight (aka dragons for example). Although Shadow Blade can yield potential, if you have a magical weapon of good quality (epic / legendary) the spell will also reduce in value. Bless has its advantages but, it seems a bit weird that it is your only option.

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Horde Encounters:

Yes i agree Spirit Guardians is definitely not the preferred spell you would use against a few strong enemies. Thats where Hold Monster/Banishment comes into play. Spirit Guardians as you said works well on horde encounters that you cant use Synaptic Static/Hypnotic Pattern against because of friendly fire. Spirit Guardians also works well as a default that you can use against more than 1 enemy and since the spell lasts 10 minutes there is potential to use it in more than 1 fight without wasting another spell slot.

I dont think Confusion is a good spell. Yes, it works against creatures that are immune to the Charmed/Fear condition, but i dont think its worth picking a bad spell just because of that. Confusion requires your concentration and has basically a 40% chance (20% act normally + 20% to attack a random creature which might include a party member) of doing something potentially bad against your party, that is not good odds to take from a 4th lvl spell.

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Few Strong Enemies:

One combination that might work particularly well with an upcasted Hold Monster is a twinned Booming Blade. If the creatures are relatively close to eachother (aka 10 feet apart) instead of taking the attack action a twinned Booming Blade can deal significantly more damage.

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Ranged Option:

As you mentioned attacking from ranged is just your backup option. Either for when it proves difficult to get to the target or for strategic reasons you dont want to enter melee. The problem with Ray of Frost as for many of the other cantrips is the 60 feet range. For short ranges you already have options you can use. You can always throw a Javelin or cast a Command spell if they are within a short range, but out of melee reach. So when you pick a cantrip i would think its best to pick one that has at least a range higher than 60 feet to make you more versatile.

As for Fire Bolt vs Chill Touch, isnt it better to deal slightly lower damage in return for more versatility? If a monster are resistant to fire and you just happened to get into a situation that required you to make a ranged attack your Fire Bolt would be rendered useless.

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Silence spell:

Yes you need a free hand, but you can always just stow your weapon or if the fight just started dont draw your weapon. Getting to the spellcaster however might be slightly more tricky, but do keep in mind that the Silence spell has a 120 feet range meaning you can set it up as a combo. First do a Ready action on the Silence spell to unleash right before your turn and follow it up by a Misty Step or Quickened Dimension Door/Thunder Step into a grapple.

As for the Subtle spell i see no reason you couldnt pick it up at 3rd lvl Sorcerer, it is both cheap and has plenty of uses. Even if you pick it up as a 10th lvl Sorcerer it is still viable against many spell casters. This brings me to another point, metamagic options. How would you rate the metamagics for a Sorcadin? I know many people have different perspective regarding this subject, but here is mine:

Spoiler: Metamagic Options

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Tier 1: Quickened (Here i think we can all agree)


Tier 2: Twinned, Subtle

Twinned spell works really well with Booming Blade when Green Flame Blade isnt viable (creatures not standing next to each other) and is a lot cheaper than Quickened (1 SP). It also combos nicely with both Spirit Guardians and Hold Monster. Other uses of Twinned spell include buffing/healing party members through Death Ward, Heal, Sanctuary, Haste and other spells. Quite useful and effective but very expensive.

Subtle spell has many applications and is a metamagic option that is cheap, versatile and doesn't restrict your spell selection. Subtle spell has the benefit of protecting your spell in combat from counterspells and enables you to counterspell enemies without the possibility of retaliation. Subtle spell gives you the option to cast spells when normal spell casters otherwise couldn't (Silence/Gagged/Tied up) and is a key component in manipulating NPCs and situations that arise. By forgoing your verbal and somatic component you can become a stealthy spell caster that are able to cast spells without giving away your position. Subtle spell also makes you the best assassin in the game either by making the death look like a tragic accident, making the NPC crazy and attack other people or by some other means. The only drawback about Subtle spell is that it doesnt work on spells that requires a material component.


Tier 3: Careful, Heightened

Careful spell as mentioned before has a very limited spell selection, but those spells it does work on (Hypnotic Pattern/Fear/Synaptic Static) has a strong synergy and the potential to swing group fights. Careful spell is also cheap without any risk of not working, but only works on the first saving throw (No Web). As mentioned before Careful spell (Like you I was also surprised not long ago when i read about it) does not work on yourself (Would really like Saga Advice confirmation on the matter) which is arguably the biggest drawback.

Heightened spell only works on a single target, is very expensive, has a gambling effect involved (creatures still might make their save) and doesnt work on single target creatures with legendary resistances. Some of the spells that synergies with Heightened spell is already being used with Quickened (Hold Monster/Banishment) and can be upcasted to include more enemies to avoid the Save or Suck effect. This means that Heightened spell loses value.


Tier 4: Empowered, Distant

Empowered spell is the only metamagic option that can be combined with another one and probably works best against hordes. Using Empowered Spell on a bad roll from a Fireball/Sypnatic Static will on average increase the damage by 19%, which could be enough to win the encounter. The problem with Empowered spell is that other than the increased damage against hordes it doesn't do a whole lot especially since the Sorcadin is melee.

Distant spell has the advantage of increasing your range which would have been very good if it wasn't severely limited. The problem with this metamagic option is that it dosnt work with spells that has a range of "Self" which includes AoE effects. This means spells like Misty Step, Spirit Guardians and Cone spells which usually fall under this category wont work. It also dosnt work on Counterspell. The range may be doubled, but the trigger on the spell says the caster must be within 60 feet to be Counterspelled.


Tier 5: Extended

The problem with the Extended spell is that it has minimal impact. The spells that lasts 1 minute will hardly do anything and those few spells that do synergies with this metamagic (Death Ward/Aura of Vitality) your effectively trading a resource (1 SP) in order to save a little extra. It also has no effect during combat. Simply put its just not worth the metamagic option.

[bendking]

Spoiler

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Crown is weird. It is the best choice when you are the sole tank (because of champion's challenge), and it is very so-and-so when you are not.

Sorcadins can become great lobsters, that is boost their defenses (with emphasis on AC; though with aura of protection and favored of the gods -and if you want to really push it, pick vhuman and choose lucky as the starting feat- their saves can be very good too). The problem with that is that you must also give a reason to the enemies to target you. OK, we can get strong OA's with warcaster, BB and smites -or alternatively we could grab sentinel, though since warcaster, BB and smites are things I would have on a S&B build, I think I wouldn't bother with sentinel), but this is usually not enough. That's where champion's challenge comes in. It does not require concentration and it is a single save. That's hard to find in one feature. It's not wall of force, but it's the best thing I can see a sorcadin getting. So, with that in mind, I would certainly focus on getting some spells that will allow me to tank well. Enter shield, absorb elements, protection from evil and good (either as a paladin prepared spell or as my ds extra pick), and blur/greater invisibility.

But then, there will be encounters during which my CD will not be available. And in a party where I am the sole tank, I think I would want to use my concentration during these encounters for providing some additional (to what my allies are doing) battlefield control (unless the DM is generous enough to have the enemies focus exclusively me, so I stick with the concentration buffs I mentioned previously; but eh...). So, I'd look at getting probably up to 2 of the following options: web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern, fear, wall of fire, wall of stone. Meaning, I still want to tank enemies, but I take out some of the focus on making me a tougher tank and putting it into trying to divert enemy attention to me or trying to completely take actions away from enemies that would want to go for the squishy allies. With divine soul, my favorite is web with freedom of movement. Meaning, if I cannot use my channel divinity to lock a foe, or if my CD failed, then I will have web be my back up. So I try to catch that enemy (or as many enemies) into it, and if I caught something strong in it, I might as well go inside so that I will give it more incentive to spend its actions fighting me inside the web, than trying to escape it and become a more serious bother to my allies. As long as I am fighting inside the web I have little to worry about, and there is a little bonus in that I can try to draw some more enemies into it with lightning lure, if I really want to. I'd still pick an alternative to web, cause webs can get burned or for when fighting sth very dexterous. Careful hypnotic pattern/fear (Swosh raised a serious concern about creful HP in his previous post though) would probably be my alternative (I like wall of stone more, but needing a stone surface is a bother; definite pick if I was playing through sth like dungeon of the mad mage or the tomb of the nine gods part of tomb of annihilation).
ps: Forgot about watery sphere. That's a good spell too, and I think it would work great when you have many squishy allies.
pps: If spirit guardians ends up drawing aggro at your table (have seen DM's tendencies for either having the monsters focus on the character concentrating on SG, or having the monsters run away from him).

I'd pick sanctuary for when defending choke points (which would be my go-to plan with such a party, at least whenever we could do so), but also for helping squishy allies against threats that resisted/bypassed my cc options (channel divinity and spells). And I would be tempted by mass cure wounds, because it has value in a party with many squishes and because I could even combine it with my other CD option for good healing in occasions such as after the party being hit by a strong damage AoE. Though I am not sure if I would find enough room for it on my spell list.
Strangely enough I would probably avoid healing word, cause unless it competes with the slots I want to use with shield, and with such a build I would want as many 1st lvl slots I could get my hands on; probably dipping 1 or 2 lvls in warlock even, mainly for the s/r rechargeable spell slots; armor of agathys is not a bad addition either).

One or two AoE's (I like vitriolic sphere if I also end up picking web; though in a vacuum, I'd say that fireball and one more of a different damage type are the safest choices). One teleport option if I can fit it (although this is not a priority for this build). Heal at later levels for sure. Maybe one of banishmet/hold monster if no ally has access to them (or if they have better things to concentrate on).

Let's do a count. Let's say, paladin (crown) 6/ sorcerer (divine soul) 12/ warlock (hexblade) 2. I make it easier on myself as this way I do not have to think about the 7th level spells; also because thanks to 1 less high level spell slot and thanks to AoA, I can create a list with less emphasis on high level spells. So, what's that, 12 sorcerer spells plus one more from being a ds, 3 hexblade spells and 8 prepared paladin spells?

Sorcerer
1) Sanctuary
2) Absorb elements
3) Web
4) Misty Step
5) Hypnotic pattern
6) Counterspell
7) Spirit guardians
8) Freedom of Movement
9) Greater invisibility
10) Banishment
11) Synaptic Static
12) Heal
* ds) Protection from evil and good

Hexblade
1) Armor of agathys
2) Hex
3) Shield

Paladin
1) Wrathful Smite
2) Thunderous Smite
3) Cure Wounds
4) ?
5) ?
6) ?
7) Aid
8) Lesser Restoration
oath) Command
oath) Compelled duel
oath) Warding bond
oath) Zone of truth

Or sth like that. I am sure there are ways to improve the list above anyway.
Sth I would like to note, is that I think it's worth to pay attention to how you will use your slots, at least to the extent you are comfortable to predict. It's easier to do that with the higher level spell slots, because they are just a few of them. So, I look at these slots: 5th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th. With the spells selected, I could easily see me using them like this: 5th (armor of agathys), 5th (synaptic static), 6th (heal), 7th (banishment or another heal), 8th (any of the ones mentioned). Or sth like that. That's one reason why I omitted mass cure wounds from my known spells, that is because I think I have good ways of spending these slots without counting on it (also because I don't think it will be often that I will choose to use my CD for healing). But if I was in a party that lacked combat healing, then I would probably squeeze mass cure wounds in there (even if I ended up having to drop synaptic static). That's why I also didn't involve healing word (which would be a useful spell in this set up). Because it competes with shield, on which I might want to count a lot for this set up (also with absorb elements and sanctuary).

Bottom line, the idea behind this build is simple. Bump defenses (AC = shield, greater invisibility, protection from evil, warlock dip; Resistances = absorb elements; HP = heal, armor of agathys, lay on hands of 30-45; Saves = aura of protection, favored of the gods, lucky; Spells = counterspell; Concentration is already solid, thanks to aura of protection, warcaster and FotG), so that you can hold firm when either through your CD or because of tactics (eg choke point, so for that alone sanctuary is a good pick; though it's also useful when you have many squishies) you tank most of the enemies. If I fight an encounter on these term, it's a win.

Secondly, build your control options (in practice, that means sacrificing a defensive boost because you will be no longer concentrating on greater invisibility/protection from evil; lowering our defense acts a bit as giving more incentive to the enemies to target you), so that you can try and create incentives for the enemies to come after you (for when your CD is not available, or if it happens to fail miserably) or for debuffing enemies that will ignore you and try to go for your allies. Enter spells like web, hypnotic pattern, fear, wall of fire, watery sphere etc. I'd pick 2 such spells, because warcaster + BB + smites only works against one enemy per round.

Then you build for contingencies, synergies (if there are to be found) and versatility.
For example, what happens if we are ambushed and I cannot protect my allies with my CD or cc spells? Spirit guardians might be a good option, seeing as I might not be able to force the enemies to attack me, I might as well kill them faster so they don't drop my allies, probably giving them more incentive to target me with SG on (SG is not the only option, but you get the idea). Enemy boss that proves too much for my defenses? Smite. Sometimes I might have the option to blast, so I grab one or two damage AoE's (so that I can soften enemies before I tank them). Few tough enemies? Grab sth like banishment so that you can cut the battle in half (similar effect to tanking with sth like blur, though the banishment type of solution is more versatile and can also act as a backup against enemies that go for your squishies instead of you). Lack healing? Grab mass cure wounds (though be careful not to overload your list with spells that use the high level slots). Lack out of combat healing and revivify? Probably go up to paladin 9, for a final build of pal9/sorc11 or pal9/warl2/sorc9, depending on if you value getting sorc spells and sp faster (and eventually access to the heal spell) vs the stuff that a couple levels of warlock can give you. If you have any room left in your spells known, fill them up with spells that perhaps were not vital to our plan, but are good spells anyway (so stuff like death ward, spiritual weapon, animate objects, holy weapon, etc, with emphasis probably on the ones not using concentration).

Wow, that is detailed. Thank you so much for the insightful read up!
I do like that Hexblade dip, 'cause I feel like after Sorcerer 5/6 power spike you can afford to get SAD and get some nice short-rest casts from Warlock, and 7th level spell slots aren't as impactful as 6th. Plus, Hexblades Curse is nothing to sneeze at.
Would you say Oath of Vengence is more impactful when you're not the only tank? I definitely wouldn't want to bother you too much, but I would definitely find you writing on that Oath, even if only writing the actual spell-list and nothing more.
Having a great time reading your comments on this thread, thank you again :)

@Swosh
I would take Hypnotic Pattern over Confusion every day. It's pretty damn broken for a 3rd level spell.
Barring that I would say Fear becomes the next best option, if you wish to avoid friendly-fire.

[Swosh]

@Swosh
I would take Hypnotic Pattern over Confusion every day. It's pretty damn broken for a 3rd level spell.
Barring that I would say Fear becomes the next best option, if you wish to avoid friendly-fire.

Yes i totally agree thats why i mentioned that Confusion isnt a good spell :)

As a side note about firendly fire and multiclassing:

Spoiler: Multiclassing

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Another option to consider is multiclassing into Bard instead of Hexblade. Glamour Bard gives you the option of moving your comrades around the battlefield as a bonus action and can be used to avoid friendly fire. Sword Bard gives you another fighting style (+2 damage) and a boost in AC, which can help you levitate some of the pressure of using the Shield spell and opens up your reaction for other uses (Absorb Elements/Counterspell/Opportunity Attack). As a Bard you also dont lose your 9th lvl spell slot. You get a boost to both your Counterspells and your initative through "Jack of all trades". You get Expertice in both Athletics (very nice with grapples and shoves / avoiding them) and Perception. And finally you get 6 more spells known, which does include Silence, Feather Fall, Healing Word, Dissonant Whispers and others. Overall a solid choice and worth a concideration.

[Corran]

Spoiler: @Swosh (spoliered for length)

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Boss Encounters:
Yes, Contagion seems very situational now and it might be better to try and find a better spell against boss encounters with legendary resistances. Haste as you mentioned can be a problem against spike damage, but also against fights that lasts over 1 minute. Greater Invisibility has the problem of not working against creatures with blindsight or truesight (aka dragons for example). Although Shadow Blade can yield potential, if you have a magical weapon of good quality (epic / legendary) the spell will also reduce in value. Bless has its advantages but, it seems a bit weird that it is your only option.

Haste: Even with waves (which is a good way to handle game balance as far as rests and # of encounters go), I don't think I ever had an encounter ran for more than 10 rounds. YMMV of course, so yeah, at some tables duration might be more of a concern than at mine. Only time I had haste run out of time (and a twinned haste at that) was during a chase but we didn't pay for it.

Greater invisibility: Yep, it runs into this sort of problem once you start fighting against the tough guys. More of a problem for other builds.

Bless: For a vengeance (S&B) build, I guess bless becomes much more of a backup option (still important for a GWM sorcadin). So for such a build, I would definitely look to grab sth like haste or shadow blade, so that combined with VoE I would be able to increase my effectiveness against bosses. Fighting bosses is not an area where I think sorcadins are bad, because they've got good defenses and they can also go nova with smites. That's why I wouldn't pay much attention to a spell like shadow blade for a sorcadin. And if I don't have these spells, and given that sorcadins (or sorcerers) don't get access to many spells that would be good against bosses, I'd probably quicken a bless if I want to utilize my concentration. For a vengeance sorcadin though who gets VoE, then I'd say it's different, because gaining advantage is as important as the damage you can dish out, so that's why I would look at grabbing sth like shadow blade or haste, in which case bless would be a backup for when I know that the boss can spike damage hard and/or target allies' saves with crippling effects (while potentially also having a good AoE, in which case it would be a real problem to figure out whether you want to have allies close and take damage but boost their saves, or have allies disperse but at the cost of not boosting their saves; assuming you have the initiative/choice to decide of course).

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Horde Encounters:

Yes i agree Spirit Guardians is definitely not the preferred spell you would use against a few strong enemies. Thats where Hold Monster/Banishment comes into play. Spirit Guardians as you said works well on horde encounters that you cant use Synaptic Static/Hypnotic Pattern against because of friendly fire. Spirit Guardians also works well as a default that you can use against more than 1 enemy and since the spell lasts 10 minutes there is potential to use it in more than 1 fight without wasting another spell slot.

I dont think Confusion is a good spell. Yes, it works against creatures that are immune to the Charmed/Fear condition, but i dont think its worth picking a bad spell just because of that. Confusion requires your concentration and has basically a 40% chance (20% act normally + 20% to attack a random creature which might include a party member) of doing something potentially bad against your party, that is not good odds to take from a 4th lvl spell.

Spirit guardians: Good point. With that duration, if you manage to go through two encounters with one (probably high-ish level) casting, then it's probably worth it anyway.

Confusion: Agreed. For a sorcadin it's probably not worth it. I'd value it more on a singleclass sorcerer though. If the party expects from your sorcerer to control/debuff, and since you can't do so any other way than with spells, I think there is more value to have a backup option when your careful hypnotic pattern will not stick because of charm resistant/immune enemies. Meaning, if I was playing a sorcerer with the careful metamagic, I would be a lot more tempted to include confusion as a back up option (yes, it's not as good as HP, not even close, but if you want a party-friendly back up cc, I think it's the best thing you can get; perhaps there is something better at the high levels of which I am not aware). Subtle confusion sounds like fun as well.

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Few Strong Enemies:

One combination that might work particularly well with an upcasted Hold Monster is a twinned Booming Blade. If the creatures are relatively close to eachother (aka 10 feet apart) instead of taking the attack action a twinned Booming Blade can deal significantly more damage.

True. But it's too risky to count on it, and if you have extra attack, the benefit is marginal and not enough imo to make you prioritize twinned to other metamagic. But yeah, if you already have twinned, and you need every bit of damage you can get, then spending 1 sp for 2*Xd8 extra damage can be worth it.
Twinned has a couple of such tricks (another one is combining a twinned BB with an upcast command), though imo such benefits are good enough if they are the by-product of grabbing twinned for sth like twinned haste/greater invisibility, but not good enough on their own to make me spend a metamagic just for these kinds of tricks.

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Ranged Option:

As you mentioned attacking from ranged is just your backup option. Either for when it proves difficult to get to the target or for strategic reasons you dont want to enter melee. The problem with Ray of Frost as for many of the other cantrips is the 60 feet range. For short ranges you already have options you can use. You can always throw a Javelin or cast a Command spell if they are within a short range, but out of melee reach. So when you pick a cantrip i would think its best to pick one that has at least a range higher than 60 feet to make you more versatile.

As for Fire Bolt vs Chill Touch, isnt it better to deal slightly lower damage in return for more versatility? If a monster are resistant to fire and you just happened to get into a situation that required you to make a ranged attack your Fire Bolt would be rendered useless.

Nicely put. This sort of thinking is why I always preferred chill touch to firebolt. And I'd agree that it's better to tread on the side of caution on this one. So yeah, I cannot help but to agree. Chill touch is the safest choice, which makes me think that it's the best choice. I guess I was feeling very adventurous when suggesting firebolt.

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Silence spell:

Yes you need a free hand, but you can always just stow your weapon or if the fight just started dont draw your weapon. Getting to the spellcaster however might be slightly more tricky, but do keep in mind that the Silence spell has a 120 feet range meaning you can set it up as a combo. First do a Ready action on the Silence spell to unleash right before your turn and follow it up by a Misty Step or Quickened Dimension Door/Thunder Step into a grapple.

Smart. Alright, lets think about this a little more. Readying silence can allow the enemy caster to counterspell us without us being able to counter the caster's counterspell. So first of all we need to avoid counterspell by staying more than 60' away from the caster. Since we will want to have silence take place after the caster's turn, if we want to be prepared for everything, we need to try and plan for being more than 60' away from the caster, after the caster takes their turn. Assuming that the caster does not do sth crazy, like using dimension door to come within 60' of us, or uses dimension door to teleport very far from us, I'd say that this is not that hard to accomplish. Because of this distance limitation, I'd say that it would be better to rely on sth like a quickened dimension door than on a misty step. Because misty step plus movement is too risky when we want to be further than 60' from the caster after the caster's turn. Dimension door allows a much bigger safety net regarding placement, and it can also work in certain indoors environments where misty step would fail (though we do need line of sight for silence; indoor environments might be a bit of a problem). So, we ready silence to go after the caster's turn (hopefully we are more than 60' away to prevent being counterspelled). Then next round, we dimension door next to the caster and we use our attack(s) to grapple. And then the caster cannot get away and is completely neutralized unless he manages to break the grapple and move away (at which point we can do an OA).

There are some issues I see with this. Firstly, the main benefit of this tactics, as opposed to just chasing the caster and smiting him, is that it allows us to drag out the fight and win it probably at a smaller cost to our resources (one 4th level slot, one 2nd level slot and 2 sp; as opposed to spending several slots with which we would counterspell, smite, and probably teleport as well). Dragging out the fight might not be a good idea though, depending on what kind of other enemies there are on the battlefield. Essentially, the silence tactic overlaps with tactics that a sorcadin has already in place for when up against casters. That is, teleports, smites and counterspell. Secondly, dropping our weapon is not really an option. The caster might be a relatively easy target to hit with our shield (used as an improvised weapon) due to not being able to shield themselves, but if others enemies engage us, and naturally we would want to prioritize them as opposed to the neutralized caster, missing our proficiency bonus from our attack might be a problem. So we have to drop our shield. But without a shield and without being able to shield ourselves, we are just an ok AC with ok hit points. Meaning, we could go down relatively fast, at which point the caster is free and the plan fails. Now, this wont be as bad if we have subtle, for some subtle castings of the shield spell, but then the problem is that I have to commit my second metamagic (more on that later, when discussing metamagic) for subtle. And all that mainly for that one tactic, which in the end is but an alternative to tactics already in place (as mentioned previously, teleports, counterspells and smites). Maybe if the caster is very mobile (someone who for example is using far step or sth similar) or if the terrain is rigged with glyphs of warding or other traps, then yeah, I guess the silence tactics would work noticeably better in such cases. But eh, it's still probably something I would feel far more comfortable aiming for when in the high levels.

As for the Subtle spell i see no reason you couldnt pick it up at 3rd lvl Sorcerer, it is both cheap and has plenty of uses. Even if you pick it up as a 10th lvl Sorcerer it is still viable against many spell casters. This brings me to another point, metamagic options. How would you rate the metamagics for a Sorcadin? I know many people have different perspective regarding this subject, but here is mine:

Subtle has plenty of uses, but most of them are out of combat uses. Now, if I was planning to use my concentration with spells like holy weapon, shadow blade and spirit guardians on a regular basis, there is less reason to involve metamagic like careful or twinned, so I would understand going with subtle as my second choice. Though I would go about conversely, meaning that if I wanted to self buff for damage, I would probably pick haste or greater invisibility and twinned as my metamagic, so that I can exploit buffing to the full. And from a combat perspective, if I was not going the buffing route, I would prefer a careful debuff (even if it ends up being an alternative to spirit guardians) than whatever situational perks subtle can offer me during combat. I value twinned and careful a lot, because careful opens up new tactical options and because twinned makes buffing an acceptable use of my concentration if I want to act as a buffer. On a singleclass sorcerer though, who does not really need quicken, I would pick one of careful or twinned (because those are what make the sorcerers distinct and most useful during combat imo) and subtle could easily be my second metamagic (because I don't think it's important to invest both on buffing and debuffing concentration spells as a sorcerer; at least not until the higher levels when you start fighting against legendary creatures, when buffing becomes slightly more important than earlir in the game; I'd still get careful cause at the very least I would want a party friendly AoE).

Spoiler: Metamagic Options

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Tier 1: Quickened (Here i think we can all agree)


Tier 2: Twinned, Subtle

Twinned spell works really well with Booming Blade when Green Flame Blade isnt viable (creatures not standing next to each other) and is a lot cheaper than Quickened (1 SP). It also combos nicely with both Spirit Guardians and Hold Monster. Other uses of Twinned spell include buffing/healing party members through Death Ward, Heal, Sanctuary, Haste and other spells. Quite useful and effective but very expensive.

Subtle spell has many applications and is a metamagic option that is cheap, versatile and doesn't restrict your spell selection. Subtle spell has the benefit of protecting your spell in combat from counterspells and enables you to counterspell enemies without the possibility of retaliation. Subtle spell gives you the option to cast spells when normal spell casters otherwise couldn't (Silence/Gagged/Tied up) and is a key component in manipulating NPCs and situations that arise. By forgoing your verbal and somatic component you can become a stealthy spell caster that are able to cast spells without giving away your position. Subtle spell also makes you the best assassin in the game either by making the death look like a tragic accident, making the NPC crazy and attack other people or by some other means. The only drawback about Subtle spell is that it doesnt work on spells that requires a material component.


Tier 3: Careful, Heightened

Careful spell as mentioned before has a very limited spell selection, but those spells it does work on (Hypnotic Pattern/Fear/Synaptic Static) has a strong synergy and the potential to swing group fights. Careful spell is also cheap without any risk of not working, but only works on the first saving throw (No Web). As mentioned before Careful spell (Like you I was also surprised not long ago when i read about it) does not work on yourself (Would really like Saga Advice confirmation on the matter) which is arguably the biggest drawback.

Heightened spell only works on a single target, is very expensive, has a gambling effect involved (creatures still might make their save) and doesnt work on single target creatures with legendary resistances. Some of the spells that synergies with Heightened spell is already being used with Quickened (Hold Monster/Banishment) and can be upcasted to include more enemies to avoid the Save or Suck effect. This means that Heightened spell loses value.


Tier 4: Empowered, Distant

Empowered spell is the only metamagic option that can be combined with another one and probably works best against hordes. Using Empowered Spell on a bad roll from a Fireball/Sypnatic Static will on average increase the damage by 19%, which could be enough to win the encounter. The problem with Empowered spell is that other than the increased damage against hordes it doesn't do a whole lot especially since the Sorcadin is melee.

Distant spell has the advantage of increasing your range which would have been very good if it wasn't severely limited. The problem with this metamagic option is that it dosnt work with spells that has a range of "Self" which includes AoE effects. This means spells like Misty Step, Spirit Guardians and Cone spells which usually fall under this category wont work. It also dosnt work on Counterspell. The range may be doubled, but the trigger on the spell says the caster must be within 60 feet to be Counterspelled.


Tier 5: Extended

The problem with the Extended spell is that it has minimal impact. The spells that lasts 1 minute will hardly do anything and those few spells that do synergies with this metamagic (Death Ward/Aura of Vitality) your effectively trading a resource (1 SP) in order to save a little extra. It also has no effect during combat. Simply put its just not worth the metamagic option.

For a sorcadin?
I'd agree that quickened is a category on its own. So that's the first I would pick.
After that, I'd go with either careful or twinned, depending on what things I would want my sorcadin to be able to do. So I'd pick one of those as my second metamagic.
Extended, subtle or empowered as my third choice (extended plays well with spells like aid, aura of vitality, etc), subtle mainly for out of combat things, but with some combat uses as well. Empowered just for nuking better. I value these about the same for a sorcadin.
Heightened... eh, it's not bad as a 3rd pick. I mean, I wouldn't mind imposing disadvantage on one of the 3 or 4 enemies I targeted with sth like a banishment, but eh... it costs 3 sp. And it will only partially improve my tactics, as due to legendary resistances there is little point in targeting one creature with save or suck spells. So I would probably skip it.
I don't think we can make distant work well enough to consider picking it.

I kept my thoughts about metamagic short, because I don't have time to read your spoiler right now. Will do so tomorrow though.

[Swosh]

Spoiler: @Corran

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True. But it's too risky to count on it, and if you have extra attack, the benefit is marginal and not enough imo to make you prioritize twinned to other metamagic. But yeah, if you already have twinned, and you need every bit of damage you can get, then spending 1 sp for 2*Xd8 extra damage can be worth it.
Twinned has a couple of such tricks (another one is combining a twinned BB with an upcast command), though imo such benefits are good enough if they are the by-product of grabbing twinned for sth like twinned haste/greater invisibility, but not good enough on their own to make me spend a metamagic just for these kinds of tricks.

Yes i agree that those tricks alone isnt worth a metamagic option by itself but do keep in mind that even a normal twinned Booming Blade can be quite beneficial in the early game to compensate for the lack of extra attack as well as give you some control when you use Spirit Guardians (they will think twice before running away). As for late game, spells that would be considered very good like Heal or Death Ward can also be twinned for good use. So even without a concentration effect like haste or greater invisibility, twinned is not a bad option.


Silence spell:
Keep in mind that you only have to stay out of Counterspell range if you dont have subtle spell. If you do have subtle spell you can ready a subtle Silence spell which the enemy spellcaster cannot Counterspell, meaning you can stand wherever you want. This also means that you can use misty step if you are close enough to the spellcaster in order to grapple. If you have extra attack and manage to grapple him on your first attack you can even use the 2nd attack to knock him prone, giving you and your party advantage on melee attacks. Since the spellcasters speed is 0, he cant even stand up during his turn and will have to remain prone as long as he is grappled. Yes you probably have to drop your shield if you want to attack with your weapon, which can be a little annoying, but the Shield (with subtle) spell will still provide you with good defense. Considering the situation, if there are more enemy creatures or the party needs additional help you might not even need to attack the spellcaster at all. You can always cast a non-concentation subtle spell as an action to pitch inn.


The main use of Subtle spell:
As for the subtle spell metamagic option i think the combat uses is quite good, particularly mid-late game when Counterspell is very common. Subtle spell makes any spell you cast be protected against Counterspells, which is a huge deal and something the Wizard dreams about everyday. Subtle spell not only protects those spells you normally cast as an action/bonus action, but also those spells that you cast as a reaction (Shield/Absorb Elements/Counterspell). Imagine casting a Shield spell in the midst of combat that was going to prevent a huge amount of damage, only to get Counterspelled. Or even worse maybe the Lich hit you with a Paralyzing Touch and you used the Shield spell only to get Counterspelled. Now you are Paralyzed and might even lose the fight. There is probably a ton of other scenarios, but you get the point.

In addition to this, your Counterspell cant even be Counterspelled. Which means that if you Counterspell a spell that the enemy casts and he really wants that spell to go off, he cant Counterspell your Counterspell. An example being the Lich casts Power Word Kill on the Rogue and you Counterspell it. Normally the Lich would likely Counterspell that Counterspell to make the Power Word Kill go off, but since you had subtle spell he cant and you just saved your friends life.


Metamagic options:

Careful spell is a metamagic option that is better for Sorcerers that usually are a bit further away from the fight. Sorcadins like to be in the midst of battle and this can cause problems since Careful spell dosnt include yourself. Imagine you and your party being surrounded by a horde, running out of that fight to try and cast a hypnotic pattern might result in so many opportunity attacks that you might end up dead. Im not saying Careful spell is bad, in fact i think its quite good its just that it loses a lot of its initial value and might not be on par with twinned or subtle.


Heightened spell i agree with, it overlaps with some of what Quickened already does when it comes to Banishment and Hold Monster and it also dosnt work on legendary saves so its not really unique. I probably should have pushed it down to Tier 4, leaving Careful spell alone in tier 3.


Extending a spell like Aid or Death Ward only trades you 1 resource for another and should you ever be the target of a dispel magic effect or a trigger for your Death Ward, you even lose resources. If you really want to trade sorcery points into spell slots dont waste your metamagic option, use Font of Magic instead. When you pick a metamagic option you want it to have significant impact, which is something Extending spell is lacking.


Distant spell is very situational but, unlike Extending spell it has a impact when you do need it. Distant spell works with spells like Thunder Step/Dimenstion Door to provide you with a teleportation advantage. Touch spells like Heroism, Cure Wounds, Fly, Longstrider, Guidance, Enhance Ability, Invisibility to provide you with a 30 feet range which makes them easy to upcast to include other party members. Imagine fighting against a creature with Frightful Presence, you can then upcast Heroism to include your party members making them immune to being frightened. A 30 feet Cure wounds makes things a lot easier to get someone back in the fight.

Spells like Sword Burst, Earth Tremor, Mass Healing Word, Mass Cure Wounds, Divine Word and Feather Fall (might be a lifesaver) for a larger area of effect range to include party members and enemies. And Lastly Minor Illusion, Healing Word, Heal and Booming Blade for double range. In general distant spell is a very circumstantial metamagic that i most likely would never take, but does have its merits when you do need it which makes it better than extending spell in my eyes.


Side note:
I remember you talked about lvl 9 Oath of the Crown Paladin to increase the number of spells known. Any specific reason you didnt mention Oath of Redemption? Redemption seems to have the best Oath spells out of all the Oaths at higher lvls, although their channel Divinity is pretty bad and like Crown Paladin their lvl 7 feature isnt exacly something to brag about. As spells they get Sanctuary, Hold Person, Counterspell and Hypnotic Pattern.

[Corran]

Spoiler: @Swosh

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Yes i agree that those tricks alone isnt worth a metamagic option by itself but do keep in mind that even a normal twinned Booming Blade can be quite beneficial in the early game to compensate for the lack of extra attack as well as give you some control when you use Spirit Guardians (they will think twice before running away). As for late game, spells that would be considered very good like Heal or Death Ward can also be twinned for good use. So even without a concentration effect like haste or greater invisibility, twinned is not a bad option.

Spoiler: Rambling

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A twinned heal does sound pretty nice to me, assuming we have a melee ally that tends to fight close to us (perfect if that ally is a barbarian). It's 6 sp, but I think it's worth reserving these sp and 6th level spell slot, cause a twinned heal seems like a truly great option to have for a very difficult encounter. Works kind like a reverse nova. Expensive, but when you really need a healing boost 'now', it's hard to beat it. That alone makes me think that I would definitely want twinned with a divine soul sorcerer (always assuming we have at least one melee ally), even if I end up grabbing it as late as at sorcerer 10. Then again, since I plan on taking twinned either way, why not maybe grab it early and profit from whatever else supports it (stuff like death ward and BB that you mentioned), and I'd say that it's probably worth planning on committing our concentration with things that play well with twinned, if we already take it. Either way, having access to spirit guardians take some of the pressure away from careful (not entirely, heavily ranged/squishy parties would still profit from a sorcadin picking stuff like a careful hypnotic pattern or fear, cause you want to have ways to deal with enemies that engage your squishies; but we already assumed a melee ally, and we are a melee build, so we are probably not talking about a heavy ranged party), so that's even more reason of going for twinned instead (I guess that last argument makes sense when one thinks that twinned and careful are the two most prominent choices after quickened).

On the other hand, a twinned heal does cut into our resources significantly (especially if we are counting on twinned for other things as well). So we will probably have to turn some spell slots into sp before a very hard encounter. Hmm.. with sth like a barbarian ally fighting next to us, it might be very much worth doing so (ie sacrificing resources that could go to smite, fireballs, teleports, whatever else) in order to have that twinned heal available. And to save that many resources, and since we are a divine soul sorcadin, we'd probably want to rely on stuff like spirit guardians and holy weapon a lot, because they can last for more than one encounter. Or just plan a little less around high level spell slots, meaning that we might end up using one less of those so that we can turn it into sp which we'll want to have for a twinned heal. Hmm.. I don't know. This takes all our versatility away, though in return it gives us a pretty good contingency (on top of smites) when the encounter is incredibly difficult. 'Anything nova' is expensive, even nova twinned healing. Maybe with a barbarian ally...

You know what. We just keep one of our high level slots as a reserve, for when we need to cash on it to get the sp for a twinned heal. That probably drops things down by a notch. So either no hexblade dip for high-ish level AoA goodness, or retraining synaptic static for fireball, or going away completely with other 6th or 7th level options. Sth like that, ie calulating spell selection as having one less of the higher spell slots. That puts a little more pressure on our lower level slots, but eh, with a strong melee ally fighting next to us, and assuming we already went with ds as our origin, I think that in the end it might be worth it.

Silence spell:
Keep in mind that you only have to stay out of Counterspell range if you dont have subtle spell. If you do have subtle spell you can ready a subtle Silence spell which the enemy spellcaster cannot Counterspell, meaning you can stand wherever you want. This also means that you can use misty step if you are close enough to the spellcaster in order to grapple. If you have extra attack and manage to grapple him on your first attack you can even use the 2nd attack to knock him prone, giving you and your party advantage on melee attacks. Since the spellcasters speed is 0, he cant even stand up during his turn and will have to remain prone as long as he is grappled. Yes you probably have to drop your shield if you want to attack with your weapon, which can be a little annoying, but the Shield (with subtle) spell will still provide you with good defense. Considering the situation, if there are more enemy creatures or the party needs additional help you might not even need to attack the spellcaster at all. You can always cast a non-concentation subtle spell as an action to pitch inn.

Oh yeah, with a subtle silence we can just count on misty step and we wont have to break our head about positioning. I'd still probably want dimension door for such a character (if for nothing else, because casters can dimension door too; also for brining an ally to help me with any difficulties that will come from the caster's allies, or for just smashing the caster more quickly; even better yet if that ally has sentinel as a feat). If we also knock prone... what's the radius of silence... *checks* 20', so assuming we centered it on the caster, if the caster escapes our grapple, he will not have enough movement to get out of silence, so even if the grapple fails, we still have one round to attempt grappling the caster and keeping him inside the radius of the silence spell.

I am still not convinced that it's worth it to go through all that. Most casters just require a little focus and they are gone. Not to say that they are easy opponents, because they can hurt you a lot out of your own initiative, but when it's time to play, you can usually bring them down fast. Melee builds have usually trouble getting in hit range, but we could always grab sth like dimension door, and we've got smite which is very well suited to brining down the glass canon sort of types.

Even liches (assume we also edit their spell list to include shield) are not that hard to take down, once you get an action to act and the chance to go next to them (which are already requirements for the silence based tactic). Maybe if we want to prevent the lich from casting something like metor swarm that would target the nearby village, or sth like wish (enter spell that will doom us), or maybe if we do not have a ranged dpr in the party (in which case it might take more than 1-2 turns to bring the lich down). The lack of a good ranged dpr ally might be good reason on its own to go with the subtle silence tactics actually, against sth as strong as a lich. But honestly, I am not impressed. I feel we are going through too many hops for dealing with a situation against which we are already well equipped (remember that smiting can help a lot with breaking a caster's concentration, so that alone limits the threat coming from the caster).

The main use of Subtle spell:
As for the subtle spell metamagic option i think the combat uses is quite good, particularly mid-late game when Counterspell is very common. Subtle spell makes any spell you cast be protected against Counterspells, which is a huge deal and something the Wizard dreams about everyday. Subtle spell not only protects those spells you normally cast as an action/bonus action, but also those spells that you cast as a reaction (Shield/Absorb Elements/Counterspell). Imagine casting a Shield spell in the midst of combat that was going to prevent a huge amount of damage, only to get Counterspelled. Or even worse maybe the Lich hit you with a Paralyzing Touch and you used the Shield spell only to get Counterspelled. Now you are Paralyzed and might even lose the fight. There is probably a ton of other scenarios, but you get the point.

The scenario with the lich's paralyzing touch is indeed ominous. And part of the reason imo is that the lich has legendary resistances, so it doesn't have to count that much on counterspell against spell effects our allies target it with. But the odds of that happening are rather small when fighting the lich (close to 10% or thereabout). But sure, there are many cases where subtle would be useful against an enemy with counterspell. Note though that there are other ways to deal with this. Say I wanted to cast a big spell, like banishment or hold monster. I cast it normally and I rely on my counterspell to protect my spell against the caster's counterspell. Sure, I wont be able to quicken, but I wouldn't be able to quicken with subtle either. Or say I want to cast a fireall. Once again I can rely on my counterspell to protect my casting. I may even choose instead sth like (an upcast quickened) command, if I really want to try and draw out a counterspell from an enemy caster, so that another ally can be clear to cast a big spell. Or I might choose to take the attacks of opportunity and get out of counterspell range (assuming both are possible) if I really need to cast sth big and for whatever reason I do not want or I cannot rely on counterspelling with my reaction. Meaning, that from an offensive perspective, we have ways to deal against enemies that counterspell. Subtle definitely plays better when we want to subtle counterspell an enemy's spell (assuming there is no ally of ours with counterspell). Even in such a case, we could even upcast our own counterspell and then hope that the dice will be on our side. Subtle might be a cleaner solution to some of these situations. But what situations are these? Fights where the enemy has a caster, and as I said previously, I think we are well equipped for dealing against casters already, at least enough so that we don't have to commit to a metamagic option just for it. Then we have to understand what exactly is the price we pay, by committing our second metamagic to sth like subtle. Twinned and careful can be built so that they form the base of tactics you use a lot more frequently than happening upon enemy casters. Even as contingencies (eg a crown paladin throws a careful hypnotic pattern/ fear on the enemies that didn't stick to fight him and instead went for someone like his archer ally), I believe that they will see more frequent use than a subtle counterspell. And what's more, is that we already have a good contingency in smite (and probably stuff like misty step/ dimension door, find steed) when up against casters anyway. I don't think I can see it as a good second metamagic on a sorcadin. On a sorcerer though, yes, I could see it as a very good second choice.

In addition to this, your Counterspell cant even be Counterspelled. Which means that if you Counterspell a spell that the enemy casts and he really wants that spell to go off, he cant Counterspell your Counterspell. An example being the Lich casts Power Word Kill on the Rogue and you Counterspell it. Normally the Lich would likely Counterspell that Counterspell to make the Power Word Kill go off, but since you had subtle spell he cant and you just saved your friends life.

Agreed that subtle counterspell is great against power word kill. And in this encounter, upcasting counterspell will fail if the DM plays the lich smartly, because the lich can upcast its counterspell too. Aura of protection (and I assume death ward, if we have picked it; revivify/raise dead too, if someone has them) will help here somewhat, but yeah, I'd agree that a subtle counterspell is the best solution. But I cannot pick things based on a particular encounter. To use an example. I think death ward would work against power word kill, right? Assuming it does, then death ward is definitely a better spell to have for this encounter if for example we compared it with sth like fireball. If I am making this build, but not just for playing against liches specifically, which spell would I prioritize for my character? Death ward, or fireball? Do I want the spell that gives me an option against hordes (when I probably have none other), or do I pick the spell that will be the best option to use when someone casts power word kill on me or on an ally?

Undoubtedly, subtle has its uses. I am not convinced that they are important enough to prioritize it to one of careful or twinned for a sorcadin (for a sorcerer too for that matter, though a sorcerer would not really need quicken, so there would be room for sth like subtle at sorcerer level 3).

Careful spell is a metamagic option that is better for Sorcerers that usually are a bit further away from the fight. Sorcadins like to be in the midst of battle and this can cause problems since Careful spell dosnt include yourself. Imagine you and your party being surrounded by a horde, running out of that fight to try and cast a hypnotic pattern might result in so many opportunity attacks that you might end up dead. Im not saying Careful spell is bad, in fact i think its quite good its just that it loses a lot of its initial value and might not be on par with twinned or subtle.

Yes, not being safe to include yourself in the hypnotic pattern's radius is a problem. 65% (or 88.75% if we have favored of the gods available and we have decided to use it if we fail on the save -unless it's a natural 1 of course) of not being affected is too risky. We could improve these odds to 87.75% by being a halfelf (or to about 99% if halfelf and divine soul), or to 100% if we chose devotion as our oath. Which mean that there are ways additional to taking OA's in which we can make it work reliably. But a careful hypnotic pattern (or a careful fear for that matter), are not only good for targeting the enemies that surround you (though I do agree, that to make it work best, that's probably when you need to cast it), but it is also a good contingency for when enemies pick on your ''backline'' and you are already occupied elsewhere. Granted, a careful hypnotic pattern/fear are not the only options, you could deal with thet problem by using sth like command or banishment (because the plan is to take actions away from these enemies, and to give some room to your cornered allies to breathe), but I think careful hp/fear are the best (most cost effective) for that purpose. But yeah, if I was grabbing careful hypnotic pattern, I would also try to work on my odds so that I could use it with my character on the radius as well.
That said, if you plan on getting something like spirit guardians (that's a big if as far as I am concerned), then carefull hypnotic pattern and fear pretty much become contingencies, in which case I would look at how squishy the party is as a whole before deciding on if I really need them or not (unless I am the sole tank, probably no).

ps: There must be other ways (besides halfelf, FotG and devotion) to bolster our chances against our own hypnotic pattern. I'll try to think of some. Why did you have to let me know of this?

Heightened spell i agree with, it overlaps with some of what Quickened already does when it comes to Banishment and Hold Monster and it also dosnt work on legendary saves so its not really unique. I probably should have pushed it down to Tier 4, leaving Careful spell alone in tier 3.

Yeah, pretty much.

Extending a spell like Aid or Death Ward only trades you 1 resource for another and should you ever be the target of a dispel magic effect or a trigger for your Death Ward, you even lose resources. If you really want to trade sorcery points into spell slots dont waste your metamagic option, use Font of Magic instead. When you pick a metamagic option you want it to have significant impact, which is something Extending spell is lacking.

The main trick is to use resources of the previous day (just before resting) so that you can cast a (couple of) extended (upcast) aid. A bit game-y if you ask me, but it has its usefulness. Or with something like aura of vitality, in case you ever find you need that much out of combat healing. There is some out of combat usefulness I assume, in stuff like extending a charm/dominate/invisibility/alter self/etc, though if we are talking about combat optimization, these stuff are not worth all that much (plus I don't think they are generally worth all that much). There might be a few more tricks, but I can't think of anything else right now. So, as far as I can think, yeah, nothing you cannot leave without).

Distant spell is very situational but, unlike Extending spell it has a impact when you do need it. Distant spell works with spells like Thunder Step/Dimenstion Door to provide you with a teleportation advantage. Touch spells like Heroism, Cure Wounds, Fly, Longstrider, Guidance, Enhance Ability, Invisibility to provide you with a 30 feet range which makes them easy to upcast to include other party members. Imagine fighting against a creature with Frightful Presence, you can then upcast Heroism to include your party members making them immune to being frightened. A 30 feet Cure wounds makes things a lot easier to get someone back in the fight.

Spells like Sword Burst, Earth Tremor, Mass Healing Word, Mass Cure Wounds, Divine Word and Feather Fall (might be a lifesaver) for a larger area of effect range to include party members and enemies. And Lastly Minor Illusion, Healing Word, Heal and Booming Blade for double range. In general distant spell is a very circumstantial metamagic that i most likely would never take, but does have its merits when you do need it which makes it better than extending spell in my eyes.

Nice analysis. I feel you are overstating the importance of some of its applications (for example, some of these spells are mostly out of combat spells, so range would not be an issue; the difference in range that it creates for some others would shine extremely situationally), but I agree with your conclusion.
ps: Distant BB would probably need a reach weapon (just like spell sniper BB does).

Side note:
I remember you talked about lvl 9 Oath of the Crown Paladin to increase the number of spells known. Any specific reason you didnt mention Oath of Redemption? Redemption seems to have the best Oath spells out of all the Oaths at higher lvls, although their channel Divinity is pretty bad and like Crown Paladin their lvl 7 feature isnt exacly something to brag about. As spells they get Sanctuary, Hold Person, Counterspell and Hypnotic Pattern.

Honestly, because I have never taken a look more than 5 seconds to the oath of redemption. I knew the get some good spells (I remembered wall of force at 17), but damn, that's a great oath spell list they have there.

@Bendking: Fear as a back up to hypnotic pattern, or vice versa, might have issues. I have a sneaking suspicion that fear and charm resistances/immunities usually go hand in hand.

[Swosh]

Spoiler: @Corran

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Oh yeah, with a subtle silence we can just count on misty step and we wont have to break our head about positioning. I'd still probably want dimension door for such a character (if for nothing else, because casters can dimension door too; also for brining an ally to help me with any difficulties that will come from the caster's allies, or for just smashing the caster more quickly; even better yet if that ally has sentinel as a feat). If we also knock prone... what's the radius of silence... *checks* 20', so assuming we centered it on the caster, if the caster escapes our grapple, he will not have enough movement to get out of silence, so even if the grapple fails, we still have one round to attempt grappling the caster and keeping him inside the radius of the silence spell.

Silence Spell:
Nicely put that makes me think the Silence spell is more lucrative if you have the Sentinel feat or have a partner with the Sentinel feat that you can bring along with the Dimension Door. With the Sentinel feat you dont even need to grapple the spellcaster you can just knock him prone for safety (he cant get out of silence field) and attack with advantage, maybe even add a smite. Should he try to run away he will trigger the opportunity attack and be stuck. Makes things a lot easier and faster.

I am still not convinced that it's worth it to go through all that. Most casters just require a little focus and they are gone. Not to say that they are easy opponents, because they can hurt you a lot out of your own initiative, but when it's time to play, you can usually bring them down fast. Melee builds have usually trouble getting in hit range, but we could always grab sth like dimension door, and we've got smite which is very well suited to brining down the glass canon sort of types.

Even liches (assume we also edit their spell list to include shield) are not that hard to take down, once you get an action to act and the chance to go next to them (which are already requirements for the silence based tactic). Maybe if we want to prevent the lich from casting something like metor swarm that would target the nearby village, or sth like wish (enter spell that will doom us), or maybe if we do not have a ranged dpr in the party (in which case it might take more than 1-2 turns to bring the lich down). The lack of a good ranged dpr ally might be good reason on its own to go with the subtle silence tactics actually, against sth as strong as a lich. But honestly, I am not impressed. I feel we are going through too many hops for dealing with a situation against which we are already well equipped (remember that smiting can help a lot with breaking a caster's concentration, so that alone limits the threat coming from the caster).

Hmm... yeah i see your point. Additionally it might be too much concidering if we picked subtle spell we would already be great against spellcasters anyways and would not need such tactics.

The scenario with the lich's paralyzing touch is indeed ominous. And part of the reason imo is that the lich has legendary resistances, so it doesn't have to count that much on counterspell against spell effects our allies target it with. But the odds of that happening are rather small when fighting the lich (close to 10% or thereabout). But sure, there are many cases where subtle would be useful against an enemy with counterspell. Note though that there are other ways to deal with this. Say I wanted to cast a big spell, like banishment or hold monster. I cast it normally and I rely on my counterspell to protect my spell against the caster's counterspell. Sure, I wont be able to quicken, but I wouldn't be able to quicken with subtle either. Or say I want to cast a fireall. Once again I can rely on my counterspell to protect my casting. I may even choose instead sth like (an upcast quickened) command, if I really want to try and draw out a counterspell from an enemy caster, so that another ally can be clear to cast a big spell. Or I might choose to take the attacks of opportunity and get out of counterspell range (assuming both are possible) if I really need to cast sth big and for whatever reason I do not want or I cannot rely on counterspelling with my reaction. Meaning, that from an offensive perspective, we have ways to deal against enemies that counterspell. Subtle definitely plays better when we want to subtle counterspell an enemy's spell (assuming there is no ally of ours with counterspell). Even in such a case, we could even upcast our own counterspell and then hope that the dice will be on our side. Subtle might be a cleaner solution to some of these situations. But what situations are these? Fights where the enemy has a caster, and as I said previously, I think we are well equipped for dealing against casters already, at least enough so that we don't have to commit to a metamagic option just for it. Then we have to understand what exactly is the price we pay, by committing our second metamagic to sth like subtle. Twinned and careful can be built so that they form the base of tactics you use a lot more frequently than happening upon enemy casters. Even as contingencies (eg a crown paladin throws a careful hypnotic pattern/ fear on the enemies that didn't stick to fight him and instead went for someone like his archer ally), I believe that they will see more frequent use than a subtle counterspell. And what's more, is that we already have a good contingency in smite (and probably stuff like misty step/ dimension door, find steed) when up against casters anyway. I don't think I can see it as a good second metamagic on a sorcadin. On a sorcerer though, yes, I could see it as a very good second choice.

Subtle Spell:
While all that is possible, do keep in mind that we only have 1 Reaction. That means if you use the Counterspell to make your spell go off you are not able to Counterspell the enemy Spellcaster. In other words he is a step ahead. With subtle spell you get to change that and be 1 step ahead of him. You will always be able to get your spell to go off and be able to have a Counterspell ready for his spells that he cant challenge. This makes you the king of magic. Subtle spell will also work wonders if you happened to meet more than 1 spellcaster where you most likely would have no chance of getting a spell to go off. Lets take a look at another example. Lets say we are fighting a few strong enemies, where 2-3 of them are spellcasters and 2-3 are brutes. Now because of your terrible terrible dexterity you will most likely lose initative. Those big brutes are running at you hitting you hard again and again and again many times and you know you cant use shield because of Counterspell. So what do you do? Well honestly there is not much you can do. If you manged to survive those attacks without Shield you still cant do much. You cant cast spells because 2 Counterspells wins against 1. You cant Counterspell the enemy spell casters because again 2 wins against 1 and you cant even flee because of opportunity attacks from the brutes. In other words you are screwed. Yes, i know its all situational, but so is other encounters with careful spell aswell.

Undoubtedly, subtle has its uses. I am not convinced that they are important enough to prioritize it to one of careful or twinned for a sorcadin (for a sorcerer too for that matter, though a sorcerer would not really need quicken, so there would be room for sth like subtle at sorcerer level 3).

Subtle vs Careful spell:
I guess we have to ask ourselves what is a thougher fight as a Sorcadin? Hordes or Spellcaster(s)? How often do we meet them? and what tools do we already possess in order to counter it? Keep in mind that i mentioned Spellcaster(s) as there always is a possibility that you can meet more than 1. Anyways for horde fights we have Sypnatic Static/Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern/Fear. All great options when there is no friendly fire. When there is friendly fire we have Spirit Guardians. Now is Spirit Guardians enough? Keep in mind that Spirit Guadians can also be upcasted if necessary to deal a lot more damage than a Fireball/Synaptic Static would. So the question really comes down to friendly fire Crowd Control (CC), aka Hypnotic Pattern/Fear. Whether thats a necessity to have against hordes in addition to Spirit Guardians or if we can manage the friendly fire with just Spirit Guardians. This is also assuming that you can make Careful spell work somehow on yourself. So i guess the big question comes down to whats more important, having a 2nd option friendly fire against hordes which we already have Spirit Guardians for? or is it more important being dominant over Spellcaster(s)?

ps: There must be other ways (besides halfelf, FotG and devotion) to bolster our chances against our own hypnotic pattern. I'll try to think of some. Why did you have to let me know of this?

Hahaha, yeah it really sucks dosnt it! I probably should have let you remain ignorant

Spoiler: Rambling

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A twinned heal does sound pretty nice to me, assuming we have a melee ally that tends to fight close to us (perfect if that ally is a barbarian). It's 6 sp, but I think it's worth reserving these sp and 6th level spell slot, cause a twinned heal seems like a truly great option to have for a very difficult encounter. Works kind like a reverse nova. Expensive, but when you really need a healing boost 'now', it's hard to beat it. That alone makes me think that I would definitely want twinned with a divine soul sorcerer (always assuming we have at least one melee ally), even if I end up grabbing it as late as at sorcerer 10. Then again, since I plan on taking twinned either way, why not maybe grab it early and profit from whatever else supports it (stuff like death ward and BB that you mentioned), and I'd say that it's probably worth planning on committing our concentration with things that play well with twinned, if we already take it. Either way, having access to spirit guardians take some of the pressure away from careful (not entirely, heavily ranged/squishy parties would still profit from a sorcadin picking stuff like a careful hypnotic pattern or fear, cause you want to have ways to deal with enemies that engage your squishies; but we already assumed a melee ally, and we are a melee build, so we are probably not talking about a heavy ranged party), so that's even more reason of going for twinned instead (I guess that last argument makes sense when one thinks that twinned and careful are the two most prominent choices after quickened).

On the other hand, a twinned heal does cut into our resources significantly (especially if we are counting on twinned for other things as well). So we will probably have to turn some spell slots into sp before a very hard encounter. Hmm.. with sth like a barbarian ally fighting next to us, it might be very much worth doing so (ie sacrificing resources that could go to smite, fireballs, teleports, whatever else) in order to have that twinned heal available. And to save that many resources, and since we are a divine soul sorcadin, we'd probably want to rely on stuff like spirit guardians and holy weapon a lot, because they can last for more than one encounter. Or just plan a little less around high level spell slots, meaning that we might end up using one less of those so that we can turn it into sp which we'll want to have for a twinned heal. Hmm.. I don't know. This takes all our versatility away, though in return it gives us a pretty good contingency (on top of smites) when the encounter is incredibly difficult. 'Anything nova' is expensive, even nova twinned healing. Maybe with a barbarian ally...

You know what. We just keep one of our high level slots as a reserve, for when we need to cash on it to get the sp for a twinned heal. That probably drops things down by a notch. So either no hexblade dip for high-ish level AoA goodness, or retraining synaptic static for fireball, or going away completely with other 6th or 7th level options. Sth like that, ie calulating spell selection as having one less of the higher spell slots. That puts a little more pressure on our lower level slots, but eh, with a strong melee ally fighting next to us, and assuming we already went with ds as our origin, I think that in the end it might be worth it.

Twinned Heal:
Yes, a twinned heal spell has definitely the potential to change the outcome of a difficult fight at the cost of severe use of resources. Like you said using 6 SP for a twinned heal has repercussions that most likely will result in a need to turn spell slots into SP. This makes the question, which spell slot is best to convert into SP? I honestly dont know but if i where to guess i would think perhaps the 7-9th lvl spell slot slot is the best option. Those spell slots is normally used for upcasting something big, like Hold Monster, Banish, Heal, Aid? maybe even Counterspell on a rare occation. Another option if we werent going to convert the 7-9 spell slots is to covert the 2nd lvl spell slots. These are probably the spell slots that we use the least. I could see myself mostly using them for either Misty Step, upcasting Bless to include the hole party or for smiting. The biggest downside to converting the 2nd lvl slots though is that you only gain 2 SP, which dosnt seem like its worth it.

You know what. We just keep one of our high level slots as a reserve, for when we need to cash on it to get the sp for a twinned heal. That probably drops things down by a notch. So either no hexblade dip for high-ish level AoA goodness, or retraining synaptic static for fireball, or going away completely with other 6th or 7th level options. Sth like that, ie calulating spell selection as having one less of the higher spell slots. That puts a little more pressure on our lower level slots, but eh, with a strong melee ally fighting next to us, and assuming we already went with ds as our origin, I think that in the end it might be worth it.

Spoiler: Hexblade

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Yes, this is arguably the biggest problem with Hexblade and why i think Sword/Glamour Bard (6/11/3) is severely underrated and might be an option worth considering. Doing a quick comparison we have:

As a Bard you get to keep the 9th lvl spell slot and you get Jack of all trades to boost your Counterspells (Probably wont need to upcast it any longer) and initative. Expertice in Perception (As good Perception as a Druid/Cleric) and Athletics (no chance to escape a grapple now + almost makes you immune to shove and grapples). As a Bard you also get 6 spells known, granted that none of the Bard spells is an auto-include spell since they dont have access to Shield or Absorb Elements. The Hexblade scores some points in this area since they have access to the Shield spell which means a +1 Sorcerer spell. The Hexblade also gets a strong ranged option, Hexblades Curse which probably works best with other Oaths than Vengeance, considering both features uses a bonus action and SADness, which is very good. Arguably the biggest feature for the Bard is Bardic Inspiration, which you get 5 of and can choose to either deliver one to an ally as a bonus action or use for Defense/Utility purposes depending on which archtype Sword or Glamour that is chosen.

The Sword Bard can boost their AC making you extremely difficult to hit with Shield or leave some pressure off having to cast Shield, which makes your reaction open for other uses (Absorb Elements/Counterspell/Opportunity Attacks). In terms of the SADness the difference between a Sword Bard and a Hexblade is only +2 attack since the Sword Bard gets a fighting style (+2 damage).

The Glamour Bard gets a battlefield control effect that makes party members get 5 temporary hit points and makes them able to move 30 feet as a reaction without triggering opportunity attacks. This effect can be really good to get allies out of friendly fire and makes a good alternative to the Careful Spell metamagic option.

I know most people advocate that Hexblade is 100% the best option, but personally i dont see it that way. For me it seems more situational like a Paladin Oath where you could argue that Crown is better as a solo tank and Vengence is better for offense. In that regard i definitely see Hexblade as the more offensive option with a boost in attack and Hexblades Curse, while a Bard is more of a Defensive/Utility option where you get a boost in AC or move party members around the battlefield.

Honestly, because I have never taken a look more than 5 seconds to the oath of redemption. I knew the get some good spells (I remembered wall of force at 17), but damn, that's a great oath spell list they have there.

Yes, if only it had a good Channel Divinity and lvl 7 feature to back it up it would have been a no brainer.

[Corran]

Spoiler: @Swosh

Show

Silence Spell:
Nicely put that makes me think the Silence spell is more lucrative if you have the Sentinel feat or have a partner with the Sentinel feat that you can bring along with the Dimension Door. With the Sentinel feat you dont even need to grapple the spellcaster you can just knock him prone for safety (he cant get out of silence field) and attack with advantage, maybe even add a smite. Should he try to run away he will trigger the opportunity attack and be stuck. Makes things a lot easier and faster.
(emphasis added)

Bolded part: It makes things faster, but it has more risk attached. All it takes is to miss with one OA, and the caster is out. Grapple + prone will give you a second chance to keep the caster inside the silence if they manage to break free from your grapple.

We can stack as many options/ character building resources as we like, really. That goes for any tactic. The more we stack, the more foolproof the tactic becomes. That usually means overlap though, which means that the efficiency of a tactic increases disproportionally with the number of resources we put into it, at least after some point. Meaning, that with every added option the increase in efficiency gets smaller.

Hmm... yeah i see your point. Additionally it might be too much concidering if we picked subtle spell we would already be great against spellcasters anyways and would not need such tactics.

Exactly.

Subtle Spell:
While all that is possible, do keep in mind that we only have 1 Reaction. That means if you use the Counterspell to make your spell go off you are not able to Counterspell the enemy Spellcaster. In other words he is a step ahead. With subtle spell you get to change that and be 1 step ahead of him. You will always be able to get your spell to go off and be able to have a Counterspell ready for his spells that he cant challenge. This makes you the king of magic. Subtle spell will also work wonders if you happened to meet more than 1 spellcaster where you most likely would have no chance of getting a spell to go off. Lets take a look at another example. Lets say we are fighting a few strong enemies, where 2-3 of them are spellcasters and 2-3 are brutes. Now because of your terrible terrible dexterity you will most likely lose initative. Those big brutes are running at you hitting you hard again and again and again many times and you know you cant use shield because of Counterspell. So what do you do? Well honestly there is not much you can do. If you manged to survive those attacks without Shield you still cant do much. You cant cast spells because 2 Counterspells wins against 1. You cant Counterspell the enemy spell casters because again 2 wins against 1 and you cant even flee because of opportunity attacks from the brutes. In other words you are screwed. Yes, i know its all situational, but so is other encounters with careful spell aswell.

Subtle will most likely be better than careful or twinned when you are facing spellcasters (the ''most likely'' part is a whole conversation on its own, but it's beside the point I want to make). Keep in mind though, that the more you tailor your build against one type of opponent, the more open you leave it against everything else. Building our sorcadin so that it will be the best possible mage killer it can be, is not completely unreasonable, because the ''sorcadin chassis'' has a good base in mobility and nova damage, and additionally they are also good on saving throws. But I would also not call it optimal as a focus, assuming that the emphasis and prioritization of features is such that it would hurt our build overall, since sorcadins are hardly the best mage killers out there. A fight against one or more spellcasters and brutes/hordes is not going to give us easy choices, and that's because the enemy set up is complex enough to present us with several courses of action. But the scenarios you are describing, while they could certainly be hard, assuming we set them up to be hard, are not exactly a nightmare scenario for a sorcadin. I am much more worried about stuff like flying enemies or quick archers or ambushes. Yet I might not even grab the likes of fly, far step and alert. All of them good options anyway (well, far step not so much perhaps; maybe for warlocks). And regarding casters specifically, one scary scenario is if they become invisible. Forget about counterspell, how will we go about smiting them with disadvantage on our attacks and shield adding to their AC? Though I will almost certainly not pick see invisibility (though maybe I should, all this talk about casters certainly had an influence on me). Bottom line, you have to play to the strengths of your build. If your build cannot handle sth, someone else probably will. If what your build can do is not what is really missing from the party, then from an optimization perspective the best thing to do is to play another build; the build that will be able to do what the party is missing, while also playing to its strengths.

You say careful is situational. It certainly has some overlap with spirit guardians. And yes, it is kind of situational, but in a similar way that fireball is situational and not in the way that sublte is situational. At least as far as I see it. Between spirit guardians and careful, which option goes away and which option stays, is a point of debate for me. In some cases I'll choose spirit guardians over careful, in other cases I wont. Party set up is a crucial parameter in that decision. But you got something wrong, and perhaps I am to blame for that too (because I do do like careful and sometimes that shows and draws attention away from the point I am trying to make; fact: I must have played about twice the number of sorcerers/sorcadins with twinned instead of careful). I don't say take careful instead of subtle. Because I could easily prefer subtle over careful on many sorcadins, and not every sorcadin (or sorcerer) I play has or plans at some point to take careful. What I'm saying is that it's optimal to pick one of careful or twinned as your second metamagic instead of subtle (just like I would pick one of twinned or careful as my first metamagic for a sorcerer). That's because what each of these metamagic options allows you to do, while most likely not better to what subtle would allow you to do against spellcasters, it will be better during every other encounter. We've got sp to spend. Sp fuels what makes us strong and unique. What are we going to spend them on? Quickened gfb's?

Subtle vs Careful spell:
I guess we have to ask ourselves what is a thougher fight as a Sorcadin? Hordes or Spellcaster(s)? How often do we meet them? and what tools do we already possess in order to counter it? Keep in mind that i mentioned Spellcaster(s) as there always is a possibility that you can meet more than 1. Anyways for horde fights we have Sypnatic Static/Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern/Fear. All great options when there is no friendly fire. When there is friendly fire we have Spirit Guardians. Now is Spirit Guardians enough? Keep in mind that Spirit Guadians can also be upcasted if necessary to deal a lot more damage than a Fireball/Synaptic Static would. So the question really comes down to friendly fire Crowd Control (CC), aka Hypnotic Pattern/Fear. Whether thats a necessity to have against hordes in addition to Spirit Guardians or if we can manage the friendly fire with just Spirit Guardians. This is also assuming that you can make Careful spell work somehow on yourself. So i guess the big question comes down to whats more important, having a 2nd option friendly fire against hordes which we already have Spirit Guardians for? or is it more important being dominant over Spellcaster(s)?
(emphasis added)

It's also a question of targeting. There aren't many ''marking'' options in 5e, so anything that takes away from the enemy's action economy can be a good solution if the enemy's targeting causes issues. Spirit guardians cannot do that. If the problem was just dealing with the enemies that are clustered around me and target me or the pc next to me (who was probably built to stand well in melee combat), I might just go for a tanking spell instead. Spirit guardians could work well, careful fear or hypnotic patten could (be made to) work well. If the enemies are targeting though pc's that they shouldn't target, then that's a problem in need of a solution different to spirit guardians. Because you don't want these enemies taken out in 2 or 3 turns, you want them to be dealt 'now'. Careful is not the only option, obviously. Banishment could do the trick, hold person/monster could do the trick, command, (twinned) greater invisibility, watery sphere, chain lightning, etc etc. We may not even have to be the ones to fix the problem. Perhaps another pc will take care of it. Perhaps the pc's facing the problem will invest in some options that will help them avoid or deal with the situation. Or we could minimize how often that problem occurs by using superior group tactics. Depending on how often this problem comes up, and depending on how seriously it hurts you, the ideal solution changes accordingly. I will say this though. Careful has a lot of value when you can use it to target enemies clustered around your melee's (in addition to the solution it can offer to the targeting issue). And this is a situation where spirit guardians would also work well (when enemies are clustered around your melee's). If the targeting issue is not severe enough for me to have to commit to spells like banishment and watery sphere, then I will drop careful, pick spirit guardians, and my gain now is that I can base my main tactics on twinned. Though, most likely I would think that conversely. That is, I would probably take twinned because it plays well with my allies, and then I would try to work around the targeting issue as best as I could.
Of course, you can look at it in a different way. Careful allows me to solve two problems with one spell, so that means more room in my spell selection (that's how I would think of it if twinned for some reason didn't play well with my allies; though I wonder how often that happens at other tables).

Hahaha, yeah it really sucks dosnt it! I probably should have let you remain ignorant

I'll forget. I always do. I had to be told 3 or 4 times that expeditious retreat cannot be twinned. That's because I had used it like that too many times before the first time I was shown that it doesn't work. Power of habbit (which is a nice way of saying failing memory).

Twinned Heal:
Yes, a twinned heal spell has definitely the potential to change the outcome of a difficult fight at the cost of severe use of resources. Like you said using 6 SP for a twinned heal has repercussions that most likely will result in a need to turn spell slots into SP. This makes the question, which spell slot is best to convert into SP? I honestly dont know but if i where to guess i would think perhaps the 7-9th lvl spell slot slot is the best option. Those spell slots is normally used for upcasting something big, like Hold Monster, Banish, Heal, Aid? maybe even Counterspell on a rare occation. Another option if we werent going to convert the 7-9 spell slots is to covert the 2nd lvl spell slots. These are probably the spell slots that we use the least. I could see myself mostly using them for either Misty Step, upcasting Bless to include the hole party or for smiting. The biggest downside to converting the 2nd lvl slots though is that you only gain 2 SP, which dosnt seem like its worth it.
(emphasis added)

Eh, you cannot predict that. Who knows what slots you will need to use during the day? I guess the DM does. Or at least they know the encounters planned. Seriously though, I think the correct answer to this, is to try and involve 'cost' as a parameter to what winning effectively means. Meaning, try to avoid overkill, even if it sometimes means drugging out the fight. Having the right spells for the right situations also helps with that. Good of combat healing (doesn't have to come from you) helps everyone economize resources too. I think this is the best way to guarantee that you will have enough resources to push through the day.


Hexblade:

I know most people advocate that Hexblade is 100% the best option, but personally i dont see it that way. For me it seems more situational like a Paladin Oath where you could argue that Crown is better as a solo tank and Vengence is better for offense. In that regard i definitely see Hexblade as the more offensive option with a boost in attack and Hexblades Curse, while a Bard is more of a Defensive/Utility option where you get a boost in AC or move party members around the battlefield.
(emphasis)

I don't find the hexblade dip that important for sorcadins. But what I value most from such a dip is that it improves your ranged attacks and that it gives you some s/r spell slots. For some builds and/or parties, these things are important. Everything else it gets you is nice but not vital imo.

[Swosh]

Spoiler: @Corran

Show

We can stack as many options/ character building resources as we like, really. That goes for any tactic. The more we stack, the more foolproof the tactic becomes. That usually means overlap though, which means that the efficiency of a tactic increases disproportionally with the number of resources we put into it, at least after some point. Meaning, that with every added option the increase in efficiency gets smaller.

Yes, there is definitely diminishing returns.

What I'm saying is that it's optimal to pick one of careful or twinned as your second metamagic instead of subtle (just like I would pick one of twinned or careful as my first metamagic for a sorcerer). That's because what each of these metamagic options allows you to do, while most likely not better to what subtle would allow you to do against spellcasters, it will be better during every other encounter. We've got sp to spend. Sp fuels what makes us strong and unique. What are we going to spend them on? Quickened gfb's?

Hmm... Actually i would think its just as strong if not stronger to pick up Subtle spell as the 3rd metamagic option. During the early game you dont have Counterspell and you are probably not very likely to meet a lot of spellcasters and those that you do meet probably wont have Counterspell. Subtle spell is a metamagic option that very much comes online mid-late game. I mainly see two benefits of picking up Subtle spell in the early game. The first and biggest one is that you get to use it in the mid game, which you wont be able to do when you pick it up as your 3rd option (lvl 16+). Secondly because you have very little Sorcery points and the Quickened spell is rather expensive, picking Subtle spell can levitate some of that pressure. As for late game and picking up a 3rd option. Keep in mind that we will have 3 different metamagic options (not two) to use sorcery points on so no matter what it shouldnt be hard to use them up efficiently if we want to. Quickening a spell is always expensive and whatever two options you choose Subtle/Careful/Twinned they will also take their toll should you come up in a situation where you need them Spellcaster/Friendly Fire Horde/Twinning Combos. That especially goes for twinned spell which will drain a ton (probably more than you want to) of Sorcery points.

And regarding casters specifically, one scary scenario is if they become invisible. Forget about counterspell, how will we go about smiting them with disadvantage on our attacks and shield adding to their AC? Though I will almost certainly not pick see invisibility (though maybe I should, all this talk about casters certainly had an influence on me). Bottom line, you have to play to the strengths of your build. If your build cannot handle sth, someone else probably will. If what your build can do is not what is really missing from the party, then from an optimization perspective the best thing to do is to play another build; the build that will be able to do what the party is missing, while also playing to its strengths.

Invisibility:
Yeah, that looks scary. However there is another option other than See Invisibility, which is Branding Smite from the paladin spell list. Granted Branding Smite has a lot of limitations. First you have to hit with disadvantage for the effect to take place and since it is a spell it can also be Counterspelled by the spellcaster(s). Second, it requires your Concentration, which means no Banishment/Hold Monster or other spells that requires concentration. Third, it only effects a single creature so if there are more than one creature that are invisible it wont help you much. Another possible option if you where tempted to pickup See Invisibility is going Bard, effectively getting that spells known back and if that wasn't enough you can also get Faerie Fire to help your allies (might be overkill).

You say careful is situational. It certainly has some overlap with spirit guardians. And yes, it is kind of situational, but in a similar way that fireball is situational and not in the way that sublte is situational. At least as far as I see it. Between spirit guardians and careful, which option goes away and which option stays, is a point of debate for me. In some cases I'll choose spirit guardians over careful, in other cases I wont. Party set up is a crucial parameter in that decision. But you got something wrong, and perhaps I am to blame for that too (because I do do like careful and sometimes that shows and draws attention away from the point I am trying to make; fact: I must have played about twice the number of sorcerers/sorcadins with twinned instead of careful). I don't say take careful instead of subtle. Because I could easily prefer subtle over careful on many sorcadins, and not every sorcadin (or sorcerer) I play has or plans at some point to take careful.

Subtle spell:
Yes, while all that is true, keep in mind that Subtle spell is a very unique metamagic, perhaps more so than the others. The only other class other than the Sorcerer that gets access to something remotely close to Subtle spell as far as i can remember is a lvl 20 Druid (Archdruid feature). Even as a lvl 20 Druid i would argue that its significantly better on a Sorcerer/Sorcadin, because the Druid dont have access to spells like Counterspell and Shield in which boosts its value ten fold.

The Careful spell, although somewhat unique has other alternatives, like an Evocation Wizard, a Glamour Bard, spells like Spirit Guardians, Features like Conquering Presence from the Conquest Paladin and perhaps others? I'm not saying Subtle spell is a definite choice, it will as you said obviously depend largely on what your other party members consists of and what the team needs. However, in general there is not a lot you can do to replace Subtle spell as far as other spells/features/classes go in which case makes Subtle spell a very valuable commodity in my opinion.

It's also a question of targeting. There aren't many ''marking'' options in 5e, so anything that takes away from the enemy's action economy can be a good solution if the enemy's targeting causes issues. Spirit guardians cannot do that. If the problem was just dealing with the enemies that are clustered around me and target me or the pc next to me (who was probably built to stand well in melee combat), I might just go for a tanking spell instead. Spirit guardians could work well, careful fear or hypnotic patten could (be made to) work well. If the enemies are targeting though pc's that they shouldn't target, then that's a problem in need of a solution different to spirit guardians. Because you don't want these enemies taken out in 2 or 3 turns, you want them to be dealt 'now'. Careful is not the only option, obviously. Banishment could do the trick, hold person/monster could do the trick, command, (twinned) greater invisibility, watery sphere, chain lightning, etc etc. We may not even have to be the ones to fix the problem. Perhaps another pc will take care of it. Perhaps the pc's facing the problem will invest in some options that will help them avoid or deal with the situation. Or we could minimize how often that problem occurs by using superior group tactics. Depending on how often this problem comes up, and depending on how seriously it hurts you, the ideal solution changes accordingly. I will say this though. Careful has a lot of value when you can use it to target enemies clustered around your melee's (in addition to the solution it can offer to the targeting issue). And this is a situation where spirit guardians would also work well (when enemies are clustered around your melee's). If the targeting issue is not severe enough for me to have to commit to spells like banishment and watery sphere, then I will drop careful, pick spirit guardians, and my gain now is that I can base my main tactics on twinned. Though, most likely I would think that conversely. That is, I would probably take twinned because it plays well with my allies, and then I would try to work around the targeting issue as best as I could.

Good analysis.

Of course, you can look at it in a different way. Careful allows me to solve two problems with one spell, so that means more room in my spell selection (that's how I would think of it if twinned for some reason didn't play well with my allies; though I wonder how often that happens at other tables).

The thing is i value a metamagic options more than i value a spell known. So if i have the possibility of replacing a metamagic option to a smaller degree by using spells i would prefer that and have a unique metamagic option that cant be replaced by spells than the other way around.

Eh, you cannot predict that. Who knows what slots you will need to use during the day? I guess the DM does. Or at least they know the encounters planned. Seriously though, I think the correct answer to this, is to try and involve 'cost' as a parameter to what winning effectively means. Meaning, try to avoid overkill, even if it sometimes means drugging out the fight. Having the right spells for the right situations also helps with that. Good of combat healing (doesn't have to come from you) helps everyone economize resources too. I think this is the best way to guarantee that you will have enough resources to push through the day.

Yeah, fair enough i was just thinking general case, which spell i was most likely to convert, but of course as you mentioned it will be situational.

I don't find the hexblade dip that important for sorcadins. But what I value most from such a dip is that it improves your ranged attacks and that it gives you some s/r spell slots. For some builds and/or parties, these things are important. Everything else it gets you is nice but not vital imo.

Hexblade:
Yes, i would probably think that Hexblade is the best option for a Conquest Paladin. Conquest paladin already wants to go lvl 7 paladin for the Aura of Conquest, in which case you already lose your 9th lvl slot. Adding on 1 lvl of Hexblade will therefore not make you lose anything significant other than access to your 7th lvl spells (In which i regard as not that important) and 1 Sorcery point.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Unfortunately, the only two 'Marking' option we have are both entirely based on combat.

The Ancestral Protectors from the Barbarian Path of the Ancestral Guardian lets you tag the first person you hit each turn, and if they attack someone else, then they disadvantage and grant the other guy Resistance. Plus at level 14, any damage they do hits back at them directly.

The Cavelier Fighter's Unwavering Mark works in a much different fashion. You can mark anyone you hit with a melee attack, and while they remain in 5ft of you, any attack they make against non-you targets has disadvantage. If they do damage someone, then next turn you can make a bonus-action advantage attack that deals extra damage on hit.

Personally, in terms of marking, I find the Ancestral Guardian to be better, halving damage, and then at level 14, dealing the damage back? Yes please. Plus, there's nothing that actually limits you from being within a certain range of them. Meaning this is probably the only Barbarian class that can use ranged weapons (Crossbow Experts for a Sword-and-Bow build? Yes please!). Cavelier tends to transform into a super-sentinel anyway. Sentinel's Movement to 0, as well as a PAM-like 'you move within reach, I can hit you' at level 10, then at level 18 you basically get Tunnel Fighter except its permanently on. Kinda neat.

[sambojin]

From all the detailed "what would the best spell be for X-thing with a divine soul sorcadin?" for the last of their few limited picks, I can't see how Conjure Celestial (to summon a Couatl) only got a brief mention.

It brings Sanctuary for defense, a bit of healing and restoration for condition management, speaks all languages with 120' telepathy, has truesight, is immune to Synaptic Shock damage, and can turn into a host of other creatures for excellent versatility. Except it's usually better at using those other creature's spells or abilities due to it's own high stats.

Yes, it's a concentration spell, with a minute cast time. But it comes with its own concentration, and could use any of 20 or more spells/abilities for you, on top of up-to CR4 "wildshape" for utility uses. Not even cheesing it out as an unlimited spell battery, it's still the perfect slot filler spell for a sorcadin. Have a lvl7 slot and only one or two spells left to learn? Great. Learn Conjure Couatl. You now know tonnes of spells and have tonnes of slots. Even if they never use another humanoid's spell list, they're not bad.

Good for combat, exploring, social encounters or just for party assistance/helping.

https://5thsrd.org/gamemaster_rules/monsters/couatl/

[Swosh]

From all the detailed "what would the best spell be for X-thing with a divine soul sorcadin?" for the last of their few limited picks, I can't see how Conjure Celestial (to summon a Couatl) only got a brief mention.

It brings Sanctuary for defense, a bit of healing and restoration for condition management, speaks all languages with 120' telepathy, has truesight, is immune to Synaptic Shock damage, and can turn into a host of other creatures for excellent versatility. Except it's usually better at using those other creature's spells or abilities due to it's own high stats.

Yes, it's a concentration spell, with a minute cast time. But it comes with its own concentration, and could use any of 20 or more spells/abilities for you, on top of up-to CR4 "wildshape" for utility uses. Not even cheesing it out as an unlimited spell battery, it's still the perfect slot filler spell for a sorcadin. Have a lvl7 slot and only one or two spells left to learn? Great. Learn Conjure Couatl. You now know tonnes of spells and have tonnes of slots. Even if they never use another humanoid's spell list, they're not bad.

Good for combat, exploring, social encounters or just for party assistance/helping.

https://5thsrd.org/gamemaster_rules/monsters/couatl/

Conjure Celestial is a spell that can best be compared to Polymorph. it is a strong spell at the lvl you normally would get it (lvl 13), but scales poorly. Since the Sorcadin is a multiclass we delay our caster progression significantly. Being 6-7 lvls behind means that we would only be able to pick up Conjure Celestial at lvl 19 or 20 depending on your build. By that time monsters are significantly stronger and because the spell requires concentration it is more likely going to be a nuisance than an asset.

[Urizen382]

I'm not sure if there was a reply with the Divine Soul Sorcerer in mind as there are several pages to sift through. IF there was, could someone please show me where it is or give advice on how to go about building a sorcadin with this in mind? Thanks!

[Urizen382]

Second question: I'm trying to go paladin 6/ Sorcerer 14. The guide says that Oath of the Crown is the best option but only if you go more than 6 levels. If that's the case, is there any better option at 6 levels? I was kind of confused by that sentence. Thanks again!

[Ghost Nappa]

Second question: I'm trying to go paladin 6/ Sorcerer 14. The guide says that Oath of the Crown is the best option but only if you go more than 6 levels. If that's the case, is there any better option at 6 levels? I was kind of confused by that sentence. Thanks again!

Oath of the Crown is ideal for Tank builds. I'm playing a Crown 6 / Draconic 1 Pally and have no plans to go any further.

My DM was excited when I told him that because an encounter was happening right as the party got out of bed, she probably wasn't wearing her armor and her AC was done from a Base of 20 to a more common 16.

I might actually get hit by something besides a boss.

[firandice]

I only have access to AL games and I'm debating making a sorcadin which is a half elf ancients/draconic. First, is it worth it to take the half elf variant for a wizard cantrip (booming blade for no penalty because of bad int) to free up space for my 4 sorc cantrips. Second off, does the spell resistance of ancients offset the flight of draconic in general. I know the spell resistance is campaign specific but im hoping someone with high tier AL can help me out

[1Pirate]

For AL, I'd pass on the extra cantrip. Booming blade locks you into SCAG as your +1 and there are some Xanathar spells that you'd miss out on.

[firandice]

For AL, I'd pass on the extra cantrip. Booming blade locks you into SCAG as your +1 and there are some Xanathar spells that you'd miss out on.

What spells are those exactly?

[g0nzo]

Hi guys, have just read pages 15 onwards of this thread so thanks very much to everyone for posting - its been educational! I'd like some advice on a sorcadin build please.

I am playing through Storm King's Thunder and I'd like to play a half elf paladin. I'd like to multiclass to sorcadin after lvl 6. There is scope for the campaign to go higher than lvl 10, which is where SKT will probably cap out.

We rolled for stats (in person) and I was stupidly lucky, rolling 16, 15, 15, 14, 14, 14. Yes I'm serious. I'd like to fill the role of a tank that also dishes massive nova damage when needed - we have a sorcerer, druid, artificer, cleric and an eldritch knight so they tell me they have buff/debuff/controll covered.

Currently considering the following options:

1) Oath of vengence, divine sorc. 16 14 16 14 14 18 at lvl 1 after Half elf. Sword and board build, war caster at lvl 4.

2) Oath of vengence, divine sorc. 15, 15, 16 14 14 18 at lvl 1 after half elf. Sword and board, crucially, ELVEN ACCURACY at lvl 4, raising dex to 16. The thinking here is that the character would be tanky due to plate armour and the aura, but would also be able to melt the face off one creature once per short rest with VOE elven accuracy smite.

3) Oath of conquest 7, +2 cha at lvl 4 with a hexblade dip. This would not even really come online in the whole campaign so would probably take 1 lvl hex in this scenario and skip the sorc.

What do you all think? Am I being an idiot for thinking I could get away without war caster until lvl 10 in build 2)? Does 2) defeat the purpose of sorcadin due to not being able to do sheild etc? My thinking is that I would not have sorcerer spells till lvl 7 anyway so would only have to wait 7-10 before getting war caster. I could just use bless and sheild of faith for concentration, and focus on melting the face off whatever biggest opponent I met between each short rest using VOE.

Any thoughts appreciated!

[Mitsu]

Hi guys, have just read pages 15 onwards of this thread so thanks very much to everyone for posting - its been educational! I'd like some advice on a sorcadin build please.

I am playing through Storm King's Thunder and I'd like to play a half elf paladin. I'd like to multiclass to sorcadin after lvl 6. There is scope for the campaign to go higher than lvl 10, which is where SKT will probably cap out.

We rolled for stats (in person) and I was stupidly lucky, rolling 16, 15, 15, 14, 14, 14. Yes I'm serious. I'd like to fill the role of a tank that also dishes massive nova damage when needed - we have a sorcerer, druid, artificer, cleric and an eldritch knight so they tell me they have buff/debuff/controll covered.

Currently considering the following options:

1) Oath of vengence, divine sorc. 16 14 16 14 14 18 at lvl 1 after Half elf. Sword and board build, war caster at lvl 4.

2) Oath of vengence, divine sorc. 15, 15, 16 14 14 18 at lvl 1 after half elf. Sword and board, crucially, ELVEN ACCURACY at lvl 4, raising dex to 16. The thinking here is that the character would be tanky due to plate armour and the aura, but would also be able to melt the face off one creature once per short rest with VOE elven accuracy smite.

3) Oath of conquest 7, +2 cha at lvl 4 with a hexblade dip. This would not even really come online in the whole campaign so would probably take 1 lvl hex in this scenario and skip the sorc.

What do you all think? Am I being an idiot for thinking I could get away without war caster until lvl 10 in build 2)? Does 2) defeat the purpose of sorcadin due to not being able to do sheild etc? My thinking is that I would not have sorcerer spells till lvl 7 anyway so would only have to wait 7-10 before getting war caster. I could just use bless and sheild of faith for concentration, and focus on melting the face off whatever biggest opponent I met between each short rest using VOE.

Any thoughts appreciated!

You need some sort of concentration boost. Most of the time you will be concentrating on Bless, Hunter's Mark, Bane, Shield of Faith, Aura spells, Comp. Duel etc etc. especially if you want to be a tank. Therefore you need either RES (CON) or War Caster. War Caster is imo better for any gish due to Booming Blade OAs.

I am not fan of Half-Elfs Sorcadin with EA. EA by itself doesn't give much without 19-20 crit range and your ASI is already very very thin. You delay concentration boost by a very long shot and your 20 CHA too. But if you want Half-Elf:

Rolled: 16, 15, 15, 14, 14, 14
Half-Elf: 15 15 16 14 14 18

Level 4 Elven Accuracy +1 DEX and DEX as your main attack stat, Level 10 - War Caster. Standard 6/14 Build.

Truth is your triple advantage won't do much difference vs regular advantage. Trust me on that, I have been there. EA is good on crit fish build but it's also one of most overrated feats in 5e. I have been playing EA Arcane Trickster Rogue 1-12 and Vengeance Sorcadin Vuman 1-20 and honestly I never felt like I critted that much more often on my EA Rogue... on paper math and actual play are two different things.

So if you want Half-Elf for roleplay reasons I would actually go your "Oath of vengence, divine sorc. 16 14 16 14 14 18 at lvl 1 after Half elf. Sword and board build, war caster at lvl 4." and just ignore Elven Accuracy. Thanks to that you will have 20 CHA + War Caster at level 10 which is much better than EA.


Variant Human:

Rolled: 16, 15, 15, 14, 14, 14
Vuman: 16, 14, 16, 14, 14, 16

Level 1: War Caster (if DM allows or simple doesn't know or care) or RES (CON) (then flip stats to have uneven CON), level 4 +2 CHA, level 10 +2 CHA. At level ten you have 20 CHA + Concentration Boost, which is perfect with how few ASI Sorcadins get.

Either way, it's the same. Choose STR or DEX as main stat, focus on getting conentration boost feat + 20 CHA as fast as possible.

[g0nzo]

You need some sort of concentration boost. Most of the time you will be concentrating on Bless, Hunter's Mark, Bane, Shield of Faith, Aura spells, Comp. Duel etc etc. especially if you want to be a tank. Therefore you need either RES (CON) or War Caster. War Caster is imo better for any gish due to Booming Blade OAs.

Thanks, yep this is what I was thinking...on paper the increased crit chance seems good but I haven't played this build before so wasn't sure if I would be really missing the concentration boost. What appeals is thought of epic smites in boss fights - like I said you could practically rely on at least one smite in a 3 round fight so could save all resources for smiting high value targets. It's just shy of a 30% cumulative crit chance chance per two attacks with EE and VOE. Just not sure if sacrificing concentration resilience is worth it for a front liner gish, as you say it probably isn't.

Warcaster still has very good options for taking the big bad down with bless and VoE giving a big boost to plain vanilla hit chance, with maybe SCAG cantrips and quickened spell thrown in later.

The half elf is for RP reasons, I have a whole backstory worked out.

[Mitsu]

Thanks, yep this is what I was thinking...on paper the increased crit chance seems good but I haven't played this build before so wasn't sure if I would be really missing the concentration boost. What appeals is thought of epic smites in boss fights - like I said you could practically rely on at least one smite in a 3 round fight so could save all resources for smiting high value targets. It's just shy of a 30% cumulative crit chance chance per two attacks with EE and VOE. Just not sure if sacrificing concentration resilience is worth it for a front liner gish, as you say it probably isn't.

Warcaster still has very good options for taking the big bad down with bless and VoE giving a big boost to plain vanilla hit chance, with maybe SCAG cantrips and quickened spell thrown in later.

The half elf is for RP reasons, I have a whole backstory worked out.

Elven Accuracy is not really that much better than regular advantage. Most of your damage to boss will still come from regular smites. Chances are you will never crit during boss fight, but you will crit across adventuring day more often, however those crits may happen during encounters where you don't really needed to Smite or anything.

Here is interesting article: https://thinkdm.org/2018/04/07/how-s...lven-accuracy/

I will give you funny example. One fight I had as my level 18 Sorcadin was solo vs Ancient Dragon, because rest of my party had to chase down bad guy, while I had to deal with a dragon.

During a fight which lasted I think around 5-6 turns I was hitting dragon with around 4 attacks per turn with regular advantage (Haste + Quicken BB). Don't remember exactly total hits I did, but for the sake of the argument let's say I totally attacked around 15 times. With Vow of Enmity on Target. That is around 30 d20 rolls.

I didn't roll 20 even once.

Funny is I rolled two 20s in a row 30 min later during an encounter with some stupid NPC warrior that wanted to duel me. I didn't need to smite him so that 2 crits went to hell.

What I say is: EA is a very good feat, but it does not give you guarantee crits. And crits don't always happen when you need them. Dice are swingy :).

[Aimeryan]

Hi guys, have just read pages 15 onwards of this thread so thanks very much to everyone for posting - its been educational! I'd like some advice on a sorcadin build please.

I am playing through Storm King's Thunder and I'd like to play a half elf paladin. I'd like to multiclass to sorcadin after lvl 6. There is scope for the campaign to go higher than lvl 10, which is where SKT will probably cap out.

We rolled for stats (in person) and I was stupidly lucky, rolling 16, 15, 15, 14, 14, 14. Yes I'm serious. I'd like to fill the role of a tank that also dishes massive nova damage when needed - we have a sorcerer, druid, artificer, cleric and an eldritch knight so they tell me they have buff/debuff/controll covered.

Currently considering the following options:

1) Oath of vengence, divine sorc. 16 14 16 14 14 18 at lvl 1 after Half elf. Sword and board build, war caster at lvl 4.

2) Oath of vengence, divine sorc. 15, 15, 16 14 14 18 at lvl 1 after half elf. Sword and board, crucially, ELVEN ACCURACY at lvl 4, raising dex to 16. The thinking here is that the character would be tanky due to plate armour and the aura, but would also be able to melt the face off one creature once per short rest with VOE elven accuracy smite.

3) Oath of conquest 7, +2 cha at lvl 4 with a hexblade dip. This would not even really come online in the whole campaign so would probably take 1 lvl hex in this scenario and skip the sorc.

What do you all think? Am I being an idiot for thinking I could get away without war caster until lvl 10 in build 2)? Does 2) defeat the purpose of sorcadin due to not being able to do sheild etc? My thinking is that I would not have sorcerer spells till lvl 7 anyway so would only have to wait 7-10 before getting war caster. I could just use bless and sheild of faith for concentration, and focus on melting the face off whatever biggest opponent I met between each short rest using VOE.

Any thoughts appreciated!

Go with the first, presuming you are going to be getting Gauntlets of Ogre Power or better. If not, you may wish to consider throwing a Hexblade dip in there and raising Charisma to 20 with the first ASI (which may be before Hexblade or after; Eldritch Blast/Booming Blade at character level 5 can make up for the delayed Extra Attack).

With a Sorcadin you want both max Strength and max Charisma, or near enough. The Gauntlets are a stupidly easy shortcut to this, but without them (or the greater versions) you end up using all your ASIs just raising stats. Hexblade is another shortcut, but does delay everything. That said, Hexblade's Curse along with Vengeance's Vow and Elven Accuracy work very well to provide crits for Smiting a tough enemy. Beware, though, they both require Bonus Actions and both are short range (30ft and 10ft, respectively) - you can usually Curse and EB while running in, next round Vow and BB/Attack fishing for a Smite, next round BB/Attack and Quicken BB.

[OkikuMew]

Hey guys, I just made my account just to post here! To start I have to give a big thank you for that guide, which actually changed my mind about my current paladin's future from "He's a paladin through and through, no way he's gonna multiclass!" to "Holy Baervan, a Soradin is too cool to pass up". That said, I'm scratching my head on some details about my soon-to-be Soradin, and hope you guys would be generous enough to give a noob a helping hand.

Now, while I do like optimization, my main goal is to stick to the general concept I have in my mind while having fun with some odd choices, so I know the build won't be perfect. All in all, the advice I seek is to make sure I chose the right things (ie feats/ASI and spells) so my character won't die/will be awesome despite my not-as-optimal choices. Anyways, Let's get on with it! (Oh, and I apologise for the terrible formatting; Posting isn't that great on mobile.)

I'm playing in the Mines of Phandelver module (with high chances of continuing with other modules after). My DM accepts anything that is either officially in a book or in UA. My character and other info currently looks like this:

Spoiler: Current Stats

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General Concepts/Main Roles: "Why is that gnome not dead yet!?", "All shields, all the time", and "people's wall" (Basically thought the mental image of a gnome wearing heavy armor and a shield as big as he is yet he fights like a boss funny, so I ran with it. Originally he was supposed to be a tank/healer as the party at the time had neither, but due to the party's reorganisation, I switched my gears to only tank, with a dash of party face and controller.)

Race: Rock Gnome

Oath: Ancients

Fighting Style: Tunnel Fighter (I'm well aware that Defence would've given me more of that sweet AC, but at the time of taking that decision, the combination of it with Sentinel feat was too good, even without Polearm Master.)

Stats (rolled; race bonuses included. I gotta thank my lucky dice and stats rolling house rules for these.):
Str: 15
Int: 14
Dex: 15
Wis: 16
Con: 17
Cha: 16

Level: 4

Lv.4 Feat/ASI: Not chosen yet

Weapon choice: S&B (well Warhammer & Board, same idea)

Current party: Life Cleric, Sun Soul Monk

Here's what I currently have in mind for his build:

Spoiler: Build

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Planned levels: Paladin 16 / Sorcerer 4
Pal 1 -> Pal 7
Pal 7 -> Pal 7 / Sor 4
Pal 7 / Sor 4 -> Pal 16 / Sor 4
Reasoning: I absolutely love feats, so I honestly don't like losing those key levels through multiclassing (I'm even a little sad about losing options by choosing ASIs over feats, but I'll trust the judgement of the guide to throw in some over feats.) Not only do I want him to be super tanky (I don't mind not having as many spells and slots), but I just love the Pal 15's Undying Sentinel, giving him another reason to refuse to die (in more ways than one).

Sorcerer Origin: Divine Soul
Reasoning: Feels right backstory wise, gets him that extra guaranteed HP, a little access to cleric spells (although a bit useless due to our party's own cleric), and that cool 2d4 of failed saving throws and attack rolls for extra "screw you death". Bonus that seems like Divine Soul is the "new" best choice for Soradins.

Sorcerer Spells:
Cantrips:
Green-Flame Blade (can't say no to a cantrip that gives more damage while melee)
Booming Blade (bread of the Soradin's bread and War Caster butter)
Minor Illusion (Super versatile, as Gastronomique praises. Good for a pranking gnome too.)
Prestidigitation (Also super versatile more than it lets on, and more classic gnome pranking fuel.)
Mage Hand (Versatile again; it's a literal helping hand. I can imagine it being our rogue substitute for traps.)
1st level:
Shield (more AC: Also, can't get enough of shields.)
Sanctuary (Divine Soul bonus spell; Would help protect others like our cleric without concentration, which is totally in-character.)
2nd level:
Hold Person (auto-crits? Yes please.)
Mirror Image ("You can't hit me, I'm the paladin gnome man!")
Suggestion (good for in-combat control and for out-of-combat stuff)
Web (nice combat control with Careful spell)

Sorcerer Metamagic:
Quickened
Careful

Feats/ASIs (in no specific order):
+1 Str, +1 Con
+2 Cha
War Caster
Shield Master
Sentinel

Finally, here's my questions:

Are my spell choices good, despite my limitations?
I have realised later on I have missed out on some probably good spells, namely Absorb Elements as mentioned in the comments. Is there any spells that I would be more fitting for my character than those I listed and, if so, what spell should I switch it with?

Are my metamagic choices good?
Related to the above questions, due spells that may be changed, should I change some of my metamagic choices in consequence? (Ex.: If I should no longer learn Web, should I replace Careful, and with what?)

Are my feats/ASI choices good?
In which order should I pick them? I would assume War Caster first, but not 100% sure for some reason. (Maybe it's my DM that keeps hinting me to wait until I get later in the game to see what I need.)
Just fyi, here's some other feats I had in mind:
Squat Nimbleness (+1 Str, double proficiency Athletics)
Resilient (Con)
Blade Mastery
Heavy Armor Master
Inspiring Leader

Is there anything else I might be missing? Things I may not be aware of, to be careful with (besides the usual Soradin stuff like resource management)?

Thank you in advance!

[Quietus]

Are my spell choices good, despite my limitations?
I have realised later on I have missed out on some probably good spells, namely Absorb Elements as mentioned in the comments. Is there any spells that I would be more fitting for my character than those I listed and, if so, what spell should I switch it with?

Are my metamagic choices good?
Related to the above questions, due spells that may be changed, should I change some of my metamagic choices in consequence? (Ex.: If I should no longer learn Web, should I replace Careful, and with what?)

Are my feats/ASI choices good?
In which order should I pick them? I would assume War Caster first, but not 100% sure for some reason. (Maybe it's my DM that keeps hinting me to wait until I get later in the game to see what I need.)
Just fyi, here's some other feats I had in mind:
Squat Nimbleness (+1 Str, double proficiency Athletics)
Resilient (Con)
Blade Mastery
Heavy Armor Master
Inspiring Leader

Is there anything else I might be missing? Things I may not be aware of, to be careful with (besides the usual Soradin stuff like resource management)?

Thank you in advance!

I'm not the greatest when it comes to the spell choices thing, but let me touch on some of the rest.

Metamagic - Quicken is an absolute must have, it's what gives you much of your oomph. Careful is good if your DM rules that it applies to your allies trying to get through your web beyond the first turn, but if not then I would look at Subtle (for shenanigans), or Twin (mostly for Booming Blade).

Feats - Seems alright, though your current plan will end with you at 16 str/18 cha. This is probably fine, just keep in mind that the lower charisma means lower saves against Hold Person, and lower aura bonus to saves for your party. You will definitely want War Caster by the time you take levels in Sorcerer. Remember that you cannot cast Shield or Absorb Elements unless you have a free hand to do so, War Caster fixes that. Resilient Con can give you hilarious levels of concentration, but I wouldn't bother unless you take more levels of sorcerer and start regularly casting Haste on yourself.

On that note - I know you said you like the level 15 Paladin ability, but since you said you don't want to lose feats, I strongly recommend at least considering 12 Paladin/8 Sorcerer. Right now your sorcery points are going to be limited to 4 per day, plus whatever you burn spell slots to generate. Those are the same spell slots you're using for smiting and casting, you're going to really feel that in play unless you mostly have a five minute adventuring day. 12 Paladin gets you Divine Strike, 8 Sorcerer gets you twice the metamagic, better spell slots, and some higher level spells including possibly Haste and Fly.

With the 12/8 build, I'd pick up Haste, then for feats get +2 Cha, Heavy Armor Master, Resilient Con, War Caster (probably as close to level 8 as possible), and one of either Shield Master or Sentinel depending on whether you want to be more personally defensive/dodgy, or more sticky. Heavy Armor Master at 4, Warcaster at 8 (go pure Paladin to here then start multiclassing Sorcerer), Resilient Con at 12, then do your Charisma and other feat. It hurts leaving Charisma so late, but this setup gives you at level 13, when you pick up Haste, a Concentration save of 4 (constitution) + 5 (proficiency) + 3 (Charisma) = +12, on top of whatever magic items you have. Meaning that on a nat 1, you still hit 13, and will keep your concentration against anything doing 27 damage or less. Add in War Caster, and Divine Soul Sorcerer 2d4 in a pinch, and you'll be able to maintain concentration against hits of 50-60 damage. Doubly so since those tend to be elemental, and you have Absorb Elements.