Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Dork_Forge]

Why is it that people can never see alternate uses for an object?

In terms of game mechanics what exactly does Candle of the Deep do?

It's literally just a candle that burns underwater. I personally would rather not spend one of two uncommon items on a) a consumeable b) what may as well be a normal candle I can buy 99% of the time.

[col_impact]

It's literally just a candle that burns underwater. I personally would rather not spend one of two uncommon items on a) a consumeable b) what may as well be a normal candle I can buy 99% of the time.

Oh really? So what is the interaction between the Candle of the Deep and Darkness?

[Maan]

Oh really? So what is the interaction between the Candle of the Deep and Darkness?

None.
"It gives off light and heat like a normal candle."
So it won't do anything about Darkness: its light it's just a normal light.

[Dork_Forge]

Oh really? So what is the interaction between the Candle of the Deep and Darkness?

...nothing? Darkness needs light from a spell of 3rd level or higher, this is just a vaguely magical candle that even says "gives off light and heat like a normal candle." There is no reason whatsoever to assume it overcomes magical Darkness, or that even if it did that it would be a good use of an item.

[col_impact]

...nothing? Darkness needs light from a spell of 3rd level or higher, this is just a vaguely magical candle that even says "gives off light and heat like a normal candle." There is no reason whatsoever to assume it overcomes magical Darkness, or that even if it did that it would be a good use of an item.

Read the top line of that spell very carefully.

[Dork_Forge]

Read the top line of that spell very carefully.

Okay sure "nonmagical light cannot illuminate it," here's a line from the magic item you are referring to: "It gives off light and heat like a normal candle." Normal candles give off mundane light, the flame is kept from being extinguished by water via magic, the flame itself is nothing special.

[col_impact]

Okay sure "nonmagical light cannot illuminate it," here's a line from the magic item you are referring to: "It gives off light and heat like a normal candle." Normal candles give off mundane light, the flame is kept from being extinguished by water via magic, the flame itself is nothing special.

It is mundane and yet also magical light. It illuminates in Darkness just fine. Just check Candle of Invocation, Sunblade ruling.

Apply RAW.

[Dork_Forge]

It is mundane and yet also magical light. It illuminates in Darkness just fine. Just check Candle of Invocation, Sunblade ruling.

Apply RAW.

"It is mundane and yet also magical light." That is an oxymoron.

Where in the items descritpion does it say that the light is magical? Nowhere. It DOES however say that it gives off "light and heat like a normal candle" which is mundane light. The Candle of Invocation does not have that additional text, the comparison is irrelevant.

Even IF it did illuminate magical Darkness, why would you spend one of your limited magic item choices on a consumeable candle whoms only noteable property is it can burn underwater?

[Ghost Nappa]

Underwater candles help you see in darkness (the natural phenomenon caused by the absence of light) but not Darkness - the spell. The light from Candle of the Deep is non-magical (arguably, the only thing magical about a Candle of the Deep is the wick.).

Having an underwater candle is very niche for this build. Most races you would want to play (Half-Elf, Dwarf, Drow, Half-Orc, Tiefling, Aasimar, etc.) have darkvision and most campaigns do not feature significantly underwater.

That's not to say such a thing has no use or purpose, but rather that the number of situations where an underwater candle is worth going out of your way to get doesn't benefit a Paladin/Sorcerer build any more than it does anyone else.

As a general note, this is going to go off-topic col_impact. If you really want to discuss this you should make a separate thread if it isn't specifically related to Paladin/Sorcerers.

[svkt28]

So I've come up with some spells I think I might need as a GWM 6/14 Devotion/Divine sorcadin. Would like some thoughts on them.

1st: Absorb Elements, Healing Word (replacing the free spell), Shield
2nd: Misty Step
3rd: Counterspell, Haste, Mass Healing Word, Revivify
4th: Greater Invisibility, Polymorph
5th: Hold Monster, Synaptic Static
6th: Heal
7th: Crown of Stars

[Dork_Forge]

So I've come up with some spells I think I might need as a GWM 6/14 Devotion/Divine sorcadin. Would like some thoughts on them.

1st: Absorb Elements, Healing Word (replacing the free spell), Shield
2nd: Misty Step
3rd: Counterspell, Haste, Mass Healing Word, Revivify
4th: Greater Invisibility, Polymorph
5th: Hold Monster, Synaptic Static
6th: Heal
7th: Crown of Stars

Have you considered adding any concentratio free defenses to your list? Like Mirror Image (2nd) and Blink (3rd)? Apologies if you addressed this in the thread previously, are you attached to your choice of Oath? Other Oaths could absorb some of your Sorc list to make things easier (and have a more action economy friendly Channel Divinity).

[svkt28]

Have you considered adding any concentratio free defenses to your list? Like Mirror Image (2nd) and Blink (3rd)? Apologies if you addressed this in the thread previously, are you attached to your choice of Oath? Other Oaths could absorb some of your Sorc list to make things easier (and have a more action economy friendly Channel Divinity).

Yeah, I'm kinda locked in with Devotion since I already have 6 levels in it. Mirror Image might be good. Might replace Revivify or Mass Healing Word with it. I don't know about Blink since I'm kinda the off-tank (second best meat shield) in the party.

[Corran]

Yeah, I'm kinda locked in with Devotion since I already have 6 levels in it. Mirror Image might be good. Might replace Revivify or Mass Healing Word with it. I don't know about Blink since I'm kinda the off-tank (second best meat shield) in the party.

Spoiler: thinking outloud

Show

You don't really need both haste and greater invisibility. Bless and sacred weapon are all the back up you need when using your staple concentration buffing spell is not a good idea but you still want to boost your at will damage. Plus, you'll have a few more concentration spells anyway. I am leaning more on greater invisibility for a devotion sorcadin.

Find cheap options. GWM sorcadins are very resource intensive. You'll want to quicken almost anything in order to justify that investment to GWM. So unless you only have 1 fight per adventuring day, avoid spells like mirror image and blink (because you typically want to quicken them). They are good spells, but they are very expensive for what they do and for your ''budget''. Pick cheap options, like spiritual weapon (although probably retrain that too to sth else if/once you end up getting greater invisibility).

Similarly, don't pick expensive options unless there is a really good reason to do so. For example, from a character optimization perspective, misty step is better than dimension door for your character. Retrain to dimension door only if it is really important to do so (eg, it would be really profitable to take a melee specialist ally with you when teleporting because fighting together is good for X,Y,Z reason). Or the twinned metamagic. It's a good pick when you count on a spell like haste or greater invisbility, but it's expensive. And devotion sorcadins (unlike vengeance ones) don't have the action economy to make the best of it. But do pick it if extending haste/ gr invisibility to an ally is important because it covers a big tactical drawback or because it enables a great attacking boost. Otherwise go with one of extended, subtle or careful for your second metamagic. Bottom line, make sure that the expensive options pull their weight, because having expensive options is going to hurt you somewhat anyway. This is why I would probably prefer fireball to synaptic static for this character.

Polymorph will be good as a debuff (mainly cause its condition is untyped, so you don't have to worry about resistances or immunities, other than general stuff like magic resistance and legendary saves), but it wont be worth it as a buff when you'll get it. I am not a fan of how polymorph and hold monster complement each other. Both target wisdom, and even though hold monster can target more than one enemies, it is the most expensive debuff spell you could pick to do that (as opposed for example to sth like hold person, slow, hypnotic pattern, fear; even a banishment will always add one more target than a hold monster of the same level, and it's a CHA save at the same time). Figure out which one of the two you prefer, and add one more accordingly. For example, hold person and banishment go well together, and so would hypnotic pattern (assuming either careful or better yet, a 7th level in devotion paladin) and hold monster. Though, since you are a divine soul, you could potentially replace one of your debuff spells with spirit guardians. So, hold monster and spirit guardians could be alright.
ps: Since heal uses a 6th level slot, all else being equal, I would prefer banishment to hold monster for this character.

I was about to say that you should think about getting a few more paladin levels (up to pal 7 or 9 or even 10), but then again, this is a bit difficult for GWM sorcadins to do, cause they want access to certain sorcerer spells to try to justify GWM. Then again, even at the cost of slots and sp, getting up to one of these paladin levels has its advantages.

So, how about this for (the first) 11 sorcerer levels?
1) Greater invisibility (or haste, if you prefer it) (c)
2) Spirit guardians (or hypotic pattern if devotion 7) (c)
3) Banishment (I'd avoid HM, and I'd fall back to the cheaper hold person -but not as a replacement to anything I list here- if I wanted the option of crit smiting) (c)
4) Fireball
5) Counterspell
6) Shield
7) Absorb elements
8) Misty step (or dimension door)
9) Heal
10)
11)
12)
13)

You can fill in as necessary. For example, do pick revivify if you wont be getting it from the paladin side of the build. I am not 100% sold on healing word, simply because with shield, absorb elements, sanctuary, bless and smites (including wrathful smite), your low level slots have some pressure. I'd pick it only if I think I would have to do a lot of yo-yo healing. Spiritual weapon is ok, but again, with aid smites (and most likely with misty step too), my 2nd level slots have some pressure too. Not a bad pick, but on second it doesn't have the best of synergy with stuff like GWM and gr invisibility/ haste. Do pick it though if your plan is to smite excessively and to quicken cantrips. I'd probably look at some concentration-free buffs (cause with the spells above and with a few paladin spells, I think your concentration is covered) which I would put to good use on occasion (on me and/or on allies), such as death ward and freedom of movement. See invisibility might also be a good pick, given GWM. Or pick some utility (eg scrying, etc).

[col_impact]

Spoiler: thinking outloud

Show

You don't really need both haste and greater invisibility. Bless and sacred weapon are all the back up you need when using your staple concentration buffing spell is not a good idea but you still want to boost your at will damage. Plus, you'll have a few more concentration spells anyway. I am leaning more on greater invisibility for a devotion sorcadin.

Find cheap options. GWM sorcadins are very resource intensive. You'll want to quicken almost anything in order to justify that investment to GWM. So unless you only have 1 fight per adventuring day, avoid spells like mirror image and blink (because you typically want to quicken them). They are good spells, but they are very expensive for what they do and for your ''budget''. Pick cheap options, like spiritual weapon (although probably retrain that too to sth else if/once you end up getting greater invisibility).

Similarly, don't pick expensive options unless there is a really good reason to do so. For example, from a character optimization perspective, misty step is better than dimension door for your character. Retrain to dimension door only if it is really important to do so (eg, it would be really profitable to take a melee specialist ally with you when teleporting because fighting together is good for X,Y,Z reason). Or the twinned metamagic. It's a good pick when you count on a spell like haste or greater invisbility, but it's expensive. And devotion sorcadins (unlike vengeance ones) don't have the action economy to make the best of it. But do pick it if extending haste/ gr invisibility to an ally is important because it covers a big tactical drawback or because it enables a great attacking boost. Otherwise go with one of extended, subtle or careful for your second metamagic. Bottom line, make sure that the expensive options pull their weight, because having expensive options is going to hurt you somewhat anyway. This is why I would probably prefer fireball to synaptic static for this character.

Polymorph will be good as a debuff (mainly cause its condition is untyped, so you don't have to worry about resistances or immunities, other than general stuff like magic resistance and legendary saves), but it wont be worth it as a buff when you'll get it. I am not a fan of how polymorph and hold monster complement each other. Both target wisdom, and even though hold monster can target more than one enemies, it is the most expensive debuff spell you could pick to do that (as opposed for example to sth like hold person, slow, hypnotic pattern, fear; even a banishment will always add one more target than a hold monster of the same level, and it's a CHA save at the same time). Figure out which one of the two you prefer, and add one more accordingly. For example, hold person and banishment go well together, and so would hypnotic pattern (assuming either careful or better yet, a 7th level in devotion paladin) and hold monster. Though, since you are a divine soul, you could potentially replace one of your debuff spells with spirit guardians. So, hold monster and spirit guardians could be alright.
ps: Since heal uses a 6th level slot, all else being equal, I would prefer banishment to hold monster for this character.

I was about to say that you should think about getting a few more paladin levels (up to pal 7 or 9 or even 10), but then again, this is a bit difficult for GWM sorcadins to do, cause they want access to certain sorcerer spells to try to justify GWM. Then again, even at the cost of slots and sp, getting up to one of these paladin levels has its advantages.

So, how about this for (the first) 11 sorcerer levels?
1) Greater invisibility (or haste, if you prefer it) (c)
2) Spirit guardians (or hypotic pattern if devotion 7) (c)
3) Banishment (I'd avoid HM, and I'd fall back to the cheaper hold person -but not as a replacement to anything I list here- if I wanted the option of crit smiting) (c)
4) Fireball
5) Counterspell
6) Shield
7) Absorb elements
8) Misty step (or dimension door)
9) Heal
10)
11)
12)
13)

You can fill in as necessary. For example, do pick revivify if you wont be getting it from the paladin side of the build. I am not 100% sold on healing word, simply because with shield, absorb elements, sanctuary, bless and smites (including wrathful smite), your low level slots have some pressure. I'd pick it only if I think I would have to do a lot of yo-yo healing. Spiritual weapon is ok, but again, with aid smites (and most likely with misty step too), my 2nd level slots have some pressure too. Not a bad pick, but on second it doesn't have the best of synergy with stuff like GWM and gr invisibility/ haste. Do pick it though if your plan is to smite excessively and to quicken cantrips. I'd probably look at some concentration-free buffs (cause with the spells above and with a few paladin spells, I think your concentration is covered) which I would put to good use on occasion (on me and/or on allies), such as death ward and freedom of movement. See invisibility might also be a good pick, given GWM. Or pick some utility (eg scrying, etc).

If you build paladin 2/ wizard 18 what are the gains and losses compared to paladin 2/ sorceror 18?

[Dork_Forge]

If you build paladin 2/ wizard 18 what are the gains and losses compared to paladin 2/ sorceror 18?

Being MAD, you'll need at least Str, Int and Cha 13 and then you'll need a decent Con to function. Dumping Wis is always a bad idea and Dex isn't great to dump either. You also can't rely on your spells as much for anything that uses your Mod, as a Sorcadin it's synergistic, but if you leave your Cha low your Smite spells are going to be poor, your Divinesense limited etc. You won't have access to metamagic to help work around being a Gish (quickiening a SCAGtrip etc.) and being a Wizard doesn't really benefit you over being a Sorcerer in this situation. You'll get Arcane Recovery but if you're looking for short rest smiting power you should have been looking at Warlock anyway, unlike Sorcerer you don't have an option to mitigate your lower hit die (Draconic) and don't really have many School abilities conducive to being a good Gish. Abjuration and War are good, but with gimped Int Bladesinger loses its shine.

I don't really see a good enough reason to go Wizard and make the build so much harder on yourself.

[Corran]

If you build paladin 2/ wizard 18 what are the gains and losses compared to paladin 2/ sorceror 18?

Aside from being less MAD in the case of sorcerer, pretty much the same with those between wizard and sorcerer.

[col_impact]

Aside from being less MAD in the case of sorcerer, pretty much the same with those between wizard and sorcerer.

What are the Wizard exclusive spells?

Is it easier for me to change prepared spells for a Wizard as opposed to a sorceror?

In my build I pick Div Wizard, do sorcerors get something that competes with 8 portent dice in Tier 3-4 play?

[Dork_Forge]

What are the Wizard exclusive spells?

Is it easier for me to change prepared spells for a Wizard as opposed to a sorceror?

In my build I pick Div Wizard, do sorcerors get something that competes with 8 portent dice in Tier 3-4 play?

your question originally seemed in good faith wanting to know the pros and cons but that clearly doesn't seem the case now.

A 14th level Divination Wizard gets 3 Portent Dice a day, where are you getting 8 from?

A better stat spread, potential access to the Cleric list, more Paladin spells, quickening spells whilst still attacking. The Sorcadin has plenty to compete and arguably just wins. The Wizard is a great casting class, but you're not actually selling it being better than the Sorcerer here, you're just being patronising and incorrect.

[col_impact]

your question originally seemed in good faith wanting to know the pros and cons but that clearly doesn't seem the case now.

A 14th level Divination Wizard gets 3 Portent Dice a day, where are you getting 8 from?

A better stat spread, potential access to the Cleric list, more Paladin spells, quickening spells whilst still attacking. The Sorcadin has plenty to compete and arguably just wins. The Wizard is a great casting class, but you're not actually selling it being better than the Sorcerer here, you're just being patronising and incorrect.

Do I get portent die from my Simulacrum?

I also pick up a portent die from a mod.

Is Magic Jar Wizard exclusive? Hmm . . .

[Dork_Forge]

Do I get portent die from my Simulacrum?

I also pick up a portent die from a mod.

Is Magic Jar Wizard exclusive? Hmm . . .

Well your Simulacrum doesn't regenerate resources, and costs an obscene amount of money. Unlike other Simulacrum strats you can't rely on a Ring of Spell Storing, Wands or Scrolls. So sure, see how far that gets you.

What mod are you even talking about?

So you'll Magic Jar someone that has high enough stats in all your prereqs and makes it worth it otherwise? Good luck finding them.

[col_impact]

Well your Simulacrum doesn't regenerate resources, and costs an obscene amount of money. Unlike other Simulacrum strats you can't rely on a Ring of Spell Storing, Wands or Scrolls. So sure, see how far that gets you.

What mod are you even talking about?

So you'll Magic Jar someone that has high enough stats in all your prereqs and makes it worth it otherwise? Good luck finding them.

How much does it cost to use Wish to get a Simulacrum?

You will have to find the mod yourself. No spoiling.

Can Scry find things?

[Dork_Forge]

How much does it cost to use Wish to get a Simulacrum?

You will have to find the mod yourself. No spoiling.

Can Scry find things?

So you went from tier 3/4 to a 19th level character minimum? Okay, you realise that a Sorcerer can replicate all of the spells you're talking about using Wish too right? With the bonus of being able to Twin any single target spells?

If you're not going to reveal your secret method, I won't count it as it likely doesn't exist. If a way of getting another portent die existed then I'm sure it would get up somewhat frequently in discussions on the Wizard.

You need to actually know of the creature instead of just scrying for something with good stats. Then that creature with good stats needs to fail 1)the scy save and 2)The Magic Jar save. You can't really do this alone since you need to be in the jar to attempt possesion. That leads youwith the issue of attempting to find and possess a creature with superior stats to you, those stats likely come with some powerful abilities. And all of this a Sorcerer can do with Wish.

You have yet to present a valid argument for a Wizard being a better multiclass and your argument so far hasn't actually addressed playing as a Gish at all.

[col_impact]

Duplicate please delete.

[col_impact]

So you went from tier 3/4 to a 19th level character minimum? Okay, you realise that a Sorcerer can replicate all of the spells you're talking about using Wish too right? With the bonus of being able to Twin any single target spells?

If you're not going to reveal your secret method, I won't count it as it likely doesn't exist. If a way of getting another portent die existed then I'm sure it would get up somewhat frequently in discussions on the Wizard.

You need to actually know of the creature instead of just scrying for something with good stats. Then that creature with good stats needs to fail 1)the scy save and 2)The Magic Jar save. You can't really do this alone since you need to be in the jar to attempt possesion. That leads youwith the issue of attempting to find and possess a creature with superior stats to you, those stats likely come with some powerful abilities. And all of this a Sorcerer can do with Wish.

You have yet to present a valid argument for a Wizard being a better multiclass and your argument so far hasn't actually addressed playing as a Gish at all.

Can Sorcerors use Wish to cast Shapechange? Or Invulnerability?

[Dork_Forge]

Can Sorcerors use Wish to cast Shapechange? Or Invulnerability?

At any point did you mention those spells before now? No. You're just naming Wizard exclusive 9th level spells. You aren't actually addressing how it's a better multiclass for a PALADIN and most of what you've sited a Sorcerer of the same level can do as well. And outside of a white room you may want to consider how that Wiz/Pal combo would level up in comparison to a Sorcadin.

[col_impact]

At any point did you mention those spells before now? No. You're just naming Wizard exclusive 9th level spells. You aren't actually addressing how it's a better multiclass for a PALADIN and most of what you've sited a Sorcerer of the same level can do as well. And outside of a white room you may want to consider how that Wiz/Pal combo would level up in comparison to a Sorcadin.

The book mentions those spells. I assume you have these books. Stuff I reference from there should not be a surprise.

In AL PvP, I beat Zariel singlehandedly with Paladin 2/ Wizard 11 using technique not available to Paladin 2/ Sorceror 11.

Can you beat Zariel with your best AL legal 13th level Sorcadin? Give it a shot.

[Dork_Forge]

The book mentions those spells. I assume you have these books. Stuff I reference from there should not be a surprise.

In AL PvP, I beat Zariel singlehandedly with Paladin 2/ Wizard 11 using technique not available to Paladin 2/ Sorceror 11.

Can you beat Zariel with your best AL legal 13th level Sorcadin? Give it a shot.

You're still not actually giving the benefits over a Sorcerer, avoidance for a reason I assume.

That's oddly specific annecdotal evidence with little to no context. The build in question was..? The associated magic items are..?

And your actual process in killing her was...?

I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it's very unlikely.

[col_impact]

You're still not actually giving the benefits over a Sorcerer, avoidance for a reason I assume.

That's oddly specific annecdotal evidence with little to no context. The build in question was..? The associated magic items are..?

And your actual process in killing her was...?

I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it's very unlikely.

Give it a try. After you try and succeed or fail, PM me to compare notes. I don't hand over secret sauce to people who haven't tried.

[Dork_Forge]

Give it a try. After you try and succeed or fail, PM me to compare notes. I don't hand over secret sauce to people who haven't tried.

So you're all talk no walk, understood. Nobody is inclined to believe you solo'd a fallen angel with 580hp, 21AC, 3 Legendary Resistances that just happens to be a better caster than you in a lot of ways and has legendary actions. So, how did you as a Wizard/Paladin multiclass solo such a monster that is also resistant to a wide array of damage types including Radiant from Divine Smite? But there's no sense in me asking questions we both know you won't answer, secret sauce right?

I can see that you've bragged about this achievement in more than just this thread, unless you actually share details it's empty blowharding.

FYI, secret sauce defeats the purpose of talking on a message board for the game, I'll stop replying now unless you actually contribute to the thread instead of derailing it.

[Maan]

Sorcerer king, is that you?