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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Magic in D&D! Help!

    I have been playing at high levels in D&D campaigns, and I noticed that the spell casters all but overshadow the non-casters. The players of the non-casters say that they are still having fun, but all the things the magic PCs did with their magic: used mass-production rings of sustenance and amulets of health to give every single member of their town so that nobody will have to worry about plagues and famine again, using spells per day to create matter out of nothing, such as Walls of Iron to sell, destabilizing the economy and selling to others in order to get in more gold pieces to make more magic, which will so dramatically alter the fundamentals of the pseudo-feudal system that is prevalent in my campaign (which is Greyhawk, by the way), that it is not even close to being at any sensible technological level. It is like a "Flintstones" effect; magic carpets and broomsticks of flying acting as air transportation, Stone Shape to build structures from the ground up, and the player with Leadership got all Adepts as his followers. He kept arguing when I said that only Commoners, Experts, and Warriors were allowed, saying that the Adepts and Aristocrats were treated as being level-2, from the Epic Level Handbook. He insisted that this was allowed for non-epic characters as well. But Leadership and Adepts are the least of my worries; the permanent duration on several spells that create something from nothing, such as wall of iron, cause spell casters to become so powerful that if I get some new players into the game, jealousy would be understandable.

    In short, spell casters can do so much more than non-casters, with their ability to manipulate reality, that I am considering finding an alternate system for magic or just switching to Iron Heroes when I finish my current campaign.

    Can anybody help me?
    Last edited by Gwenfloor; 2007-07-10 at 08:27 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Try enforcing trade laws inmajor cities (the ones where they would have to sell this stuff) so that the profit is minimalized. Or, you could even increase the amout of XP required to make each subsequent copy of the same item, or for each casting of Permanency. I realize that this is neither likely to please your players or solve the problem long term, but it should at least throw them off the industrial bent long enough for you to come up with a more permanent solution.

    If the players solve too many people's problems with magic items, you could also have people traveling from far and wide to benefit from the party's benevolent leadership. That should make them realize it's not worth the effort.

    As for the Leadership problem, you are the boss. Always remember that any problem can be solved by your will. Your game your rules. Period.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Tome of Battle might be a place to start, but really the problems go right to the root of the differences between the classes.

    Fightery types hit things with sharp metal sticks (some of them even do it really, well).
    Casters affect the fabric of the universe, telling the laws of physics to, as Vaarsuvius put it, "Shut up and sit down."

    There's going to be some variance no matter what you do. What you CAN do, is, like the Tome of Battle, look at the weaknesses of the core fighter classes, and try to remove some of them. Not all of them, but some of them. Because even though people will likely jump on my head for saying so, even Batman has a weakness, and that's being caught off-guard. The Fightery types, however, have half a dozen weaknesses that are much, much more significant.
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Using that much magic can easily, and I'll say, should backfire in certain ways. There's no doubt that it's quite potent, but using magic as a shortcut to solve everyday issues like feeding people and making money is risky business. The iron from walls of iron can be dispelled out of existance, for example.

    The main thing that catches my eye is giving rings of sustenence and amulets of health to a whole town of people. If anything screams "unbalancing the natural order" this is it. Realistically, if you knew you didn't have to worry about eating or getting sick anymore, how would that affect you, and your outlook on life? Chances are that most people will be much less inclined to do work. They'll get lazy and too content for their own good, so when a real hardship strikes, they'll be in even more trouble.

    A certain likely hardship would be what happens when others find out about the town and it's incredible health plan. One problem is that a lot of new people will want to move in, which would either create problems between "haves" and "have nots" or force the PCs to invest more resources to supplying the increasing population. Crime would also be on the rise. In fact, it's not unreasonable to imagine the town being raided while the PCs aren't around, seeing as each citizen is wearing a substantial amount of wealth on their person.

    Now, I'm not saying that all uses of magic should inherently punish the user (although there's also nothing wrong such a setting, so long as it's established beforehand that magic works that way) but using it frivolously to break the economy and whatnot is sure to have repurcussions. So part of this isn't just the power of casters, but the DM letting the players get away with too much. Remember, the rules as written are just the foundation, not the entire structure of the game.

    Also, if you're worried about class balance issues, looking into the Tome of Battle might be useful for characters interested in melee combat. I'm sure that someone's already ninja'd me in saying this by now, though.

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Also, remember that each peasant in their home town now has about 10,000 gp worth of magic items on them. Ten thousand gold. How tempting would it be to rob/kill your Commoner 1 neighbor and sell their loot for 5000 gold? They should, at the very least, be marked for theft by every get-rich-quick thief within 500 miles.
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Basic flaw of D&D. They balanced casters as blasters, then in 3ed they decided to stop railroading classes and gave everyone some options. So they added a few cool non-blasty things they could do, and didn't really try to break them in playtesting. So Batman is totally broken.

    Flaw #2 of D&D: Spells are balanced for combat. Wall of Iron is slightly less poweful than Wall of Force in a combat situation. It allows for permanent sealing up of areas, but is not impenetrable. However, the system was not balanced for the sale of the iron. Similarly for item creation. Intended as a cool flavour thing, not an industry. So the rules, when well applied, allow casters to do nearly anything.

    Unfortunately, this is a problem of the system, and requires major work to fix. If the players are already doing it, then it's too late to fix it easily. If you have leadership abuse and wall of iron depressions, chuck a war at them. Make those adept followers have to fight an army of golems. Build up creatures that are magic-resistant but not physically tough. Pit them against a magocentric nation, and watch the players scrabble to overcome the threat. Don't kill them all, but show them that magic is not always the answer. Chuck a negation abjurer at the party wizard, and let the fighter cut him down mid-duel. Stuff like that.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    The iron from walls of iron can be dispelled out of existance, for example.
    Wall of Iron in an instantaneous spell, so it can't be dispelled.

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Look for consequences, both in the Material Plane and the Extra Planar. Why aren't High Level NPCs doing the same thing? Why isn't Greyhawk a land filled with Golem armies and other such beasties? High Level PCs handing out magic stuff to peasants and building out of dispellable materials are asking for trouble, both from the legitimate authorities and from evil aligned power groups.

    However, there isn't really a lot that you can do (though you have clearly lost control of a campaign when a Player is dictating what kind of followers he has to you) at high level play that won't break campaigns. Once you get past Level 10 or so, things can become very difficult to manage outside of heavily fleshed out worlds like The Forgotten Realms.
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    The iron from walls of iron can be dispelled out of existance, for example.
    The spell is instantaneous, so no it can not. It's easiest to just rule that as a raw material iron is worth bupkis.
    Last edited by PinkysBrain; 2007-07-10 at 09:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Be careful with golem armies. While golems are very annoying to casters, they are even more annoying to melee. They grapple. They are enormous, and have a proportional grapple modifier. They are immune to nonlethal damage (which is all the barbarian can do with a grapple check). They have DR/Adamantine, so unless the barb invested in an adamantine shortsword or dagger, they can't do squat, since they can't power attack. The mage, on the other hand, needs to remeber to chuck a no-SR attack spell which affects objects if it needs a fort save, or roll Knowledge (arcana) and hit it with its vulnerability spells.
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Using that much magic can easily, and I'll say, should backfire in certain ways. There's no doubt that it's quite potent, but using magic as a shortcut to solve everyday issues like feeding people and making money is risky business. The iron from walls of iron can be dispelled out of existance, for example.

    The main thing that catches my eye is giving rings of sustenence and amulets of health to a whole town of people. If anything screams "unbalancing the natural order" this is it. Realistically, if you knew you didn't have to worry about eating or getting sick anymore, how would that affect you, and your outlook on life? Chances are that most people will be much less inclined to do work. They'll get lazy and too content for their own good, so when a real hardship strikes, they'll be in even more trouble.

    A certain likely hardship would be what happens when others find out about the town and it's incredible health plan. One problem is that a lot of new people will want to move in, which would either create problems between "haves" and "have nots" or force the PCs to invest more resources to supplying the increasing population. Crime would also be on the rise. In fact, it's not unreasonable to imagine the town being raided while the PCs aren't around, seeing as each citizen is wearing a substantial amount of wealth on their person.

    Now, I'm not saying that all uses of magic should inherently punish the user (although there's also nothing wrong such a setting, so long as it's established beforehand that magic works that way) but using it frivolously to break the economy and whatnot is sure to have repurcussions. So part of this isn't just the power of casters, but the DM letting the players get away with too much. Remember, the rules as written are just the foundation, not the entire structure of the game.

    Also, if you're worried about class balance issues, looking into the Tome of Battle might be useful for characters interested in melee combat. I'm sure that someone's already ninja'd me in saying this by now, though.
    They're using automations to do all the work. Oh, and the more people come to see the lord's "benevolence," with 24 hours, the spell casters can regain their spells.

    It is at the end of the Shackled City Adventure Path, and the Scarlet Brotherhood to east has been ravaged by a magic plague that resists all magical cures. The refugees, commoners, and much of their work force migrated to the PCs country, so a sizable portion of former Brotherhood civilians and peasants. So that rules out the evil Empire. Also, several of Mordenkainen's agents have found out about the Player Characters. That "spells" trouble.
    Last edited by Gwenfloor; 2007-07-10 at 09:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    While I think that they should have been balanced in the first place, I would say try to introduce a little balance.

    Perhaps, use of casting spells to make commodities which are then sold should be illegal. Now this doesn't stop evil or chaotic characters so much, but lawful ones are going to be hesitant about it. Not because it's "the law" so much as people realized a problem was possible and created a law because of it.

    Magically created items should show sign of that they are created. And, some people would know what to look for. Not appropriate for every farmer to know those horseshoes your selling him were not made by a smith, but by a wizard... but when you show up with thousands of horseshoes they'll look for that.


    And, maybe they can ALL be dispeled.

    Just some thoughts.
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    This used to be known as Monty Haul Syndrome. You gave them too much and they're breaking your Campaign World. However, 3.x seems to support this sort of thing, so it's hard to know exactly what's going on.

    Chances are, you have given them too much freedom and underestimated their capabilities.
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    They must have unlimited resources to be cranking out THAT many rings and amulets.

    And I would send a raiding force in one night from an neighboring evil kingdom, to "abduct" some 20-30 peasants and their items, with the evil army in the wings waiting for a response.
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Other people have made some excellent suggestions.

    The key is to think "real" world.

    If the PC's are doing this what's going through the heads of the rules, other powerful NPC or the common people?

    You've had the excellent suggestion that the wealth of the population would be so much greater than other places that you'd get an influx of people and crime would sky rocket. Jealous neighbours might invade or local rulers may object and take action against the PCs.

    The trick as the DM is to consider the repercussions of the PC's actions and ensure the world they're in behaves appropriately. It sounds like you've lost control so take the suggestions you have received so far an implement them.

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    You always need to have a balance of power that can best the PCs, whether it be gods, wizard cabalas, or even templars among a few...

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    So, they've put a LOT of miners out of work. They've ruined entire trade empires. Sounds like someone should be getting a visit from an entourage of dwarfs who want "discuss" the problems they've caused their kin. Never hurts to smack a TPK to let them know when they've gone too far.
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    hmmm

    well, for fun, you can have each a 5 percent chance that every permanent creation of magic is cursed by some minor minor flaw that the caster didnt notice, so now some of the rings of sustinence make you feel full, when your are actually starving and stuff

    and it seems like that much magic would cause problems if its that concentrated in one place for that long. results could be things like:

    dragons decide that they could really add to there hoards by sacking the town every once in a while

    random living spells begin showing up wandering around aimlessly

    the amount of magic in the area begins altering the land, changing animals and the wildlife

    paladins from a religious order who believe that people must suffer and work as pentinence for there evilness (similar to the old school christan monks that would beat themselfs) see this as a travasty and "correct" it

    endless possibilities

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Breaon View Post
    They must have unlimited resources to be cranking out THAT many rings and amulets.
    They do. Wall of Iron, hello?
    Since this is such a big problem, and I do not want to have to deal with it EVERY campaign of mid-to-high level, I am considering either finding an alternate magic system or switching to Iron Heroes.
    Does anybody know of any d20 magic systems that do not destabilize the economy?
    Last edited by Gwenfloor; 2007-07-10 at 10:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuincherguixe View Post
    While I think that they should have been balanced in the first place, I would say try to introduce a little balance.

    Perhaps, use of casting spells to make commodities which are then sold should be illegal. Now this doesn't stop evil or chaotic characters so much, but lawful ones are going to be hesitant about it. Not because it's "the law" so much as people realized a problem was possible and created a law because of it.

    Magically created items should show sign of that they are created. And, some people would know what to look for. Not appropriate for every farmer to know those horseshoes your selling him were not made by a smith, but by a wizard... but when you show up with thousands of horseshoes they'll look for that.


    And, maybe they can ALL be dispeled.

    Just some thoughts.
    So that will just make the peasants want them more! If Wizards can alter reality, then his/her horseshoes must be awesome!

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwenfloor View Post
    Does anybody know of any d20 magic systems that do not stabilize the economy?
    i play monte cooks arcana unearthed, and so far the magic system seems better balanced. it is much more flexible, while removing and balancing actual spells

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Sorry, I meant "destabilize."
    Is it like the "fire and forget" spellcasting system?
    Last edited by Gwenfloor; 2007-07-10 at 10:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Just because a spell's effect is permanent with regards to a battle, doesn't mean that it is actually 100% bona fide forever and always permanent. The idea that magic erodes over time is common in the fantasy genre. Have Mordenkainen send a letter to the PCs saying "Selling magically created iron? Tsk, tsk, I wouldn't do that if I were you." The PCs laugh the letter off and then prepare to defend themselves against the angry archmage, but find themselves besieged by an army of angry merchants and iron workers because all that magical iron has turned to dust. The next letter from Mord should be something to the effect of "I told ya so..."
    Last edited by Tequila Sunrise; 2007-07-10 at 10:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwenfloor View Post
    Sorry, I meant "destabilize."
    Is it like the "fire and forget" spellcasting system?
    not quit sure what you mean by that

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Wall of Iron is instantaneous. It is real iron.

    No angry merchants because it disappears one day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork warrior View Post
    paladins from a religious order who believe that people must suffer and work as pentinence for there evilness (similar to the old school christan monks that would beat themselfs) see this as a travasty and "correct" it
    That doesn't sound very paladin-ish.
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roog View Post
    Wall of Iron in an instantaneous spell, so it can't be dispelled.
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkysBrain View Post
    The spell is instantaneous, so no it can not. It's easiest to just rule that as a raw material iron is worth bupkis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Wall of Iron is instantaneous. It is real iron.

    No angry merchants because it disappears one day.
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Somebody noted that 5% of all magic items are cursed. Start dropping that on the PCs, or rather, the people the PCs are giving the items to. Also, note that something below 1% of all permanent magic items are intelligent. It is quite possible that neither of these are intentional results of creation, so start dropping Chaotic Evil Magic Items on your PCs at the hands of the unsuspecting peasants.

    EDIT: Your PCs broke the unspoken rule that adventurers won't upset the economy. Now you get to ignore the unspoken rule that cursed items don't exist, and intelligent items are very rare. True, it takes tons more work to come up with the cursed items and the intelligent items, but if they get the message to tone down the use of magic, all will be well.
    Last edited by Rockphed; 2007-07-10 at 11:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    Simple solution:

    Tell your PC's not to do that. If they keep doing it, stop running the campaign.

    The system is broken. Trying to fix it is a fool's errand. Telling your players "don't exploit it" is a perfectly valid solution, and probably the only one that works.

    Oh, and you don't have to allow Leadership. Again, tell your players "don't exploit it", and if they don't listen, end the campaign.

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    Default Re: Magic in D&D! Help!

    What do the gods think about this?

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