Players trying to break campaign

[SmartCookie]

Hello :) This is my first time posting, but I have gotten lots of help on here from the past reading through the various discussion threads. Hopefully someone may be able to give me some advice.

I am currently running my own campaign with three lvl 8 players: A Fighter who just purposely became turned by a Vampire, a Barbarian who accidentally became infected by a Wererat when fighting a member of a thieves guild, and an Elvin Ranger who is so far unscathed from the other two's monstrous natures. The main quest is for the characters to hunt down and kill two of the last three (now four) vampires in existence that they accidentally released into the world. The problem I am currently having is with my fighter. After introducing him to the game at the beginning of this campaign (he started off as a lvl3) he has read and reread every rule trying to break my campaign and be OP as hell. Arguing with me and using knowledge in game that his character definitely wouldn't have.

I have already tried bringing him into check somewhat by having the vampire who turned him in control over some of his actions, making him have to follow a direct order if give (he can be as creative as he wants when doing so of course). I also made him a weekend version of the basic vampire template. Any ideas or suggestions?

[Benthesquid]

You're falling into what seems to be an all-too-common trap, trying to resolve what's essentially an Out of Character issue in-game. If the way your player is playing is making it difficult or unfun for you to run the game, take him aside and talk to him about it. If he's unwilling to adjust his playstyle, you need to consider whether it's worthwhile to keep playing with him.

[Knitifine]

Tell the problem player he is being removed from the game for his behavior.

[The Ship's dog]

I have had this kind of situation happen, although I was in the position of being in the party with the person trying to break the game. The reason for this was because, whilst he was good at telling a story, the DM was trying too hard to make us go along with the story rather than just letting our characters interact how they would.

No matter how much you think someone is being a **** because they want to, people always have a reason for doing things; even if it is something that they don't realise and is subconscious.

I suggest you do take this player aside and talking to them like has been suggested, but also keeping in mind and being open to the suggestion that you might be doing something wrong or such-like that has incited this behaviour.

Something that happenede in our campaign is that a sort of personal vendetta sprang up between the DM and players, the DM always targeting the player in combat and such-like. This only served to make the conflict more bitter and the game became not fun; because of this I suggest you try not to reign the player in using the game as much as it seems like a good idea.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread moved to appropriate forum.

Carry on.

[Friv]

Yeah, this is a "have a conversation with him" situation. The way I see it, there are a few possibilities:

(a) From what you've said, it sounds like this is his first RPG? If so, he may well be doing a thing a lot of new players do where he's testing the limits of what he can do in this game. He doesn't know the social conventions, and they haven't been fully explained, so he's not clear on which things are cool ideas and which things are just causing trouble for no benefit. In particular, the idea of "meta-gaming" can take a long time to wrap one's head around. It's not something that you avoid in video games or board games. If this is the case, discussing how you're totally cool with things like getting deliberately turned, but reminding him that it's a shared game and if he pushes in the wrong places he might ruin things for everyone else could help.

(b) It's also possible that he's frustrated by something about the game, and addressing that something will help him. He's having fun, but there's something that is not fun and he's pushing back against that something. If so, figuring out what that something is can really help.

(c) Finally, it's possible that he's just a bad person when he roleplays, in which case you're not going to make much progress. If that's the case, a polite conversation and the session after it will reveal this fact pretty quickly. Please note that just because someone is a bad roleplayer doesn't make them a bad friend. I have a few pretty good friends that I don't like to roleplay with because they get hyper-competitive and treat the situation like a game that they have to win, with me as the opponent. It's an attitude that's fine when I play board games with them, but not so much for an RPG.

If your fighter is just a bad gamer, you will have to decide whether you want to modify the game, or remove the player.

[Megaduck]

The posts above all had good advice so I won't repeat most of it. :) I do think you need to have an out of character talk with this player.

Some other thoughts,

It looks like you have a player that wants as much power as possible,

A Fighter who just purposely became turned by a Vampire, a Barbarian who accidentally became infected by a Wererat when fighting a member of a thieves guild,

The player saw that the Barbarian had just gotten a cool new ability (Being a wererat) and then wanted something similar.

This could be caused by the player wanting to live out power fantasies or play a more "Heroic" type character.

It could also be that this player doesn't like combat and wants it over faster.

What you could think about, with the agreement of the other players, is to lower the difficulty of the game. So all the enemies fall in one or two hits. I find this sometimes helps with players who want to feel powerful.

It depends on how your talk with them goes.

[Corsair14]

I would have some high level vampire hunter kill him off, but that's just me. Also if he were to try and be a rules lawyer, remind him that the rules are a guideline and can be changed at the DM's whim for the sake of the campaign. Oh and have many of the activities take place during the day outside. Or just get rid of him.

[SmartCookie]

Thanks for all the great advice everyone. I'm going to talk to him and see how it goes.

[Stealth Marmot]

I am currently running my own campaign with three lvl 8 players: A Fighter who just purposely became turned by a Vampire, a Barbarian who accidentally became infected by a Wererat when fighting a member of a thieves guild, and an Elvin Ranger who is so far unscathed from the other two's monstrous natures. The main quest is for the characters to hunt down and kill two of the last three (now four) vampires in existence that they accidentally released into the world. The problem I am currently having is with my fighter. After introducing him to the game at the beginning of this campaign (he started off as a lvl3) he has read and reread every rule trying to break my campaign and be OP as hell. Arguing with me and using knowledge in game that his character definitely wouldn't have.

I have already tried bringing him into check somewhat by having the vampire who turned him in control over some of his actions, making him have to follow a direct order if give (he can be as creative as he wants when doing so of course). I also made him a weekend version of the basic vampire template. Any ideas or suggestions?

First thing you have to remember is very important: Do NOT get vindictive. It is easy to want to drag this player out and show him you're the boss, but that is not going to help the situation. Don't PUNISH the player in game, at least not directly.

Having the vampire exercise control is not a good way of reining him in, but it works as a sort of side effect or downside to his purposeful vampirism. If you never intended him to use the vampirism for stat bonuses, simply remove them, or at least most of them.

Just state that you read up on how vampirism works, and that if you followed the book the patron who made him a vampire should have much stricter control, and instead make a less severe version with less direct control (and less bonuses)

If he insists he wants to be a full vampire, and he wants to go through the whole process of becoming a full blooded vampire, have him go through it in stages. If you have access to Savage Species, I believe there is a progression style for Vampires that takes level adjustment into account. It could actually make for a very good walk down the darker path RP style. have the powers be unlocked as he levels up, instead of getting class levels he gets vampiric powers and stat boosts until he gets the whole thing.

You don't have to ever say NO to a player when they ask for something, you just instead need to make sure the player is willing to pay the price, and the price should be time spent investing in his character to get it.

As for the player trying to use rules to break the game, just veto things. If they want a non-core feat, restrict it and veto if it can break the game. They want a certain item that can break the game? Veto it and say it is not available. If they are breaking certain spells? Adapt the spells as needed. If they are trying to get all the Vampire bonuses at once? Use the progression I suggested.

No one can break the game without your permission, but they can min-max a lot. You're going to have to be more specific to have us help resolve a certain imbalance.

But do keep in mind that Min-Maxing is to be expected to a degree, and if a character has glaring flaws, exploit them as necessary.

Everything has a price.

[Geddy2112]

Second talking to the player.

That said, optimizing, minmaxing, powergaming etc. is not inherently wrong. If he wants to be the biggest baddest, he certainly can. The thing is, you are the GM, and you can counter optimize back. Your player can powergame within the rules, but so can you. What your player can't do is fiat, where you can. You can make combinations and powerful things that won't function according to the rules, but they can't see behind the screen and know that. He wants to be big and bad? That is good, that means you can throw bigger badder nastier monsters right back at em. If he wants to flex, give him some monsters to flex on and something where he has to use all the power he has to eek out a victory.

Second that this should NOT be punishing the player-instead reward him and show him what his power can do. An 8th level character is powerful-they could kill a flock of chickens without so much as breaking a sweat, and it would certainly be a show of force, but not really rewarding. An 8th level character can also kill a very young dragon, or decently powerful undead, or combined, an older dragon or powerful undead.

Also remember that the player can do whatever in the rules, but ultimately the rules and the universe they are playing in is yours. They can't just run roughshod and insist they get to break the hard limits of reality/physics, and you are the final arbiter on what that stuff is. A fighter vampire is very powerful, but they can't just go blowing up the planet, riding an elder dragon, or enslave entire empires by clapping their hands.

Lastly, remind your players that all actions have consequences. This is not intended to punish or subvert "bad" behavior, or reward "good" behavior. It is simply reinforcing the hard and consistent laws of the universe. Situations should resolve based on the logical rules of the world-vampire goes out in the sun? Vampire dies. Vampire attacks an elder dragon solo? Vampire dies. Vampire disguises themselves and goes and becomes batman? The people rejoice with mixed feelings about their new vigilante of the night. Vampire disguised as a humanoid buys a round of ale for a tavern? The tavern rejoices and might offer some friendly who knows what. Vampire swears to only feed on animals and never humanoids, and seeks to kill all others of his kind? Who knows what could happen...

[SmartCookie]

Thank you everyone, I'm going to talk to him out of game as suggested and let the game go on.

[Lord Torath]

Thank you everyone, I'm going to talk to him out of game as suggested and let the game go on.

Don't forget to come back and tell us how it went! We love to see how our advice turns out!

[Ugganaut]

Hope the talk goes well.

In the future, an idea might be to try and anticipate those "difficult" players. It can be small things, like deciding that vampires only turn victims when they want to...and unless you want the player to be a vampire, the npc vamp just doesn't. I was playing in a game where I didn't know the creature that bit me was a werecreature. I made a save after combat(failed), but didn't know why. The next full moon, which was many games later, the DM described a dream, where I was getting chased by a tiger. My movement was sluggish, i could feel it gaining on me, do I try to outrun it, or try to fight it. I chose to turn and fight, which was the wrong move :) The tiger leaped into my body, and I woke up covered in blood. That was the DM's creative way of bypassing the failed save, and if I had chosen to run, I would have got another save, or even just automatically passed. Unfortunately for me, our DM didn't allow werecreatures or vampires etc in our party, so my character became an npc and I rerolled. We knew that beforehand though, so things that could turn us were always taken seriously, it was never something we wanted to happen because in that case, it was worse that death(we had raise dead).

Another thing that same DM does, is slightly change every freakin creature we fight. He said he's so used to doing it, it doesn't take him long. He doesn't like stereotypes, and after two decades of gaming, us players find it really interesting. It also means your out-of-game knowledge is limited. You might know the basic kobold stats from the books, but he may have boosted their HP, given them different armor, or in the case of the kobolds who followed a great wyrm blue dragon, the little suckers could cast Shocking Grasp through their rods. Wasn't a huge boost, but he never said it was Shocking Grasp, only that they were channelling lightning energy through their metal rods(weapons).
Does require a bit of extra work, but gets around a lot of that player knowledge. Also that DM requires us to make Knowledge checks if we want our characters to know something. We try to separate in and out of game knowledge, its more fun that way imo, but can be tough some times. So not impossible to know about that Shocking Grasp, if the right checks are made(knowledge or info gathering).

Good luck.

[Noje]

Becoming a vampire or were-rat should not be a good thing, both are debilitating diseases (well, more the lycanthropy than vampirism in this case) that any player should be trying to avoid at all costs. Unless your fighter has some desire to become immortal, it shouldn't be appealing. Personally, I treat it like any other disease, and it is a burden on both the player and party to deal with (finding fresh, virgin blood to drink; hiding him from any holy organizations nearby; etc.).

But that's just my two cents, there are definitely other ways of dealing with vampirism.

[ellindsey]

I actually have a house rule that if your character becomes a vampire, they also become a NPC. They're not in charge anymore, a negative energy spirit has moved in and taken over. They can wait for the rest of the party to try and Resurrect them (after destroying the vampire), or write up a new character.

The only time this has come up is when one player left the group right as they were about to fight a vampire boss. Was a perfect opportunity to have their old character turned and become an adversary for a bit.

[Stealth Marmot]

I actually have a house rule that if your character becomes a vampire, they also become a NPC. They're not in charge anymore, a negative energy spirit has moved in and taken over. They can wait for the rest of the party to try and Resurrect them (after destroying the vampire), or write up a new character.

The only time this has come up is when one player left the group right as they were about to fight a vampire boss. Was a perfect opportunity to have their old character turned and become an adversary for a bit.

Reminds me of how vampirism supposedly works in the Buffy Universe.

[Arbane]

I actually have a house rule that if your character becomes a vampire, they also become a NPC. They're not in charge anymore, a negative energy spirit has moved in and taken over. They can wait for the rest of the party to try and Resurrect them (after destroying the vampire), or write up a new character.

That sounds familiar (and reasonable).

[SmartCookie]

We will be playing this weekend. Will do :)

[Dragonexx]

One method of handling and balancing such things as vampirism and other templates is to have them take up a number of magic item slots. I use a homebrew tome system that limits one to 8 magic items, and a powerful template might take up 3-4 item slots. For the standard DND one, you might have the player give up a number of item slots to remain at roughly the same level of power (I can't remember how many there are in standard system.)

[SmartCookie]

Thank you everyone. I talked to the player and he understood. We were able to get more into the game and he started to figure out how to take care of things more in game rather than by arguing rules or meta-gaming. Now they just have to kill the last vampire in game (who has started a cult while they have been taking their time). Should be fun :)

[Stealth Marmot]

Thank you everyone. I talked to the player and he understood. We were able to get more into the game and he started to figure out how to take care of things more in game rather than by arguing rules or meta-gaming. Now they just have to kill the last vampire in game (who has started a cult while they have been taking their time). Should be fun :)

Huzzah for mature adults working out their problems!

It seems like this may be a good day for things working out. Good thing there isn't any other potential fights brewing between two incredibly divisive groups concerning a decision being made today, Tuesday November 8, 2016.

.....Right?