Ki Sword Master

[Kylecaraway]

Ki Sword master

Class is in maintenance.

One that dedicates his life to the sword. He hones his reflexes and sword play to perfection, so he may battle with finesse.

Hd.8
Same skill set as duelist.
Skill start: 6+intx4
Weapon pro. All light and martial
Armor pro. None.
Start gold. 6d4x10g

Lvl. bab. saves. Ki. Ac. Sp.

1. 1. 0/2/2. 1. 0. 0

2. 2. 0/3/3. 2. 0. 0

3. 3. 1/3/3. 3. 0. 10ft

4. 4. 1/4/4. 5. 0. 10ft

5. 5. 1/4/4. 6. 1. 10ft

6. 6/1. 2/5/5. 7. 1. 20ft

7. 7/2. 2/5/5. 9. 1. 20ft

8. 8/3. 2/6/6. 12. 1. 20ft

9. 9/4. 3/6/6. 13. 1. 30ft

10. 10/5. 3/7/7. 14. 2. 30ft

11. 11/6/1. 3/7/7. 20. 2. 30ft

12. 12/7/2. 4/8/8. 21. 2. 40ft

13. 13/8/3. 4/8/8. 22. 2. 40ft

14. 14/9/4. 4/9/9. 30. 2. 40ft

15. 15/10/5. 5/9/9. 31. 3. 50ft

16. 16/11/6/1. 5/10/10. 32. 3. 50ft

17. 17/12/7/2. 5/10/10. 42. 3. 50ft

18. 18/13/8/3. 6/11/11. 43. 3. 60ft

19. 19/14/9/4. 6/11/11. 44. 3. 60ft

20. 20/15/10/5. 6/12/12. 58. 4. 60ft


Feats

Lvl. Feats.

1. Flurry of blades,

2. Evasion, ki blade.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9. Improved evasion

10. Improved Ki blade

11. , greater flurry of blades

12. Ki step,

13.

14.

15.

16.

17.

18.

19.

20.

Flurry of blades.
Lvl.
1. -2/-2

2. -1/-1

3. 0/0

4. +1/+1

5. +2/+2

6. +3/+3

7. +4/+4

8. +5/+5/0

9. +6/+6/+1

10. +7/+7/+2

11. +8/+8/+8/+3

12. +9/+9/+9/+4

13. +9/+9/+9/+4

15. +10/+10/+10/+5

16. +11/+11/+11/+6/+1

17. +12/+12/+12/+7/+3

18. +13/+13/+13/+8/+3

19. +14/+14/+14/+9/+4

20. +15/+15/+15/+10/+5

Flurry of blades acts as flurry of blow. Cost 1 ki per character level.

Ki blade.


Greater flurry of blades.


Ki aura.

[Swaoeaeieu]

homebrew i assume?
could you elaborate on the purpose of this new class and the design choises made?

[Karl Aegis]

So if a Fighter is a Swordsman, this is a Master Fighter?

Strange BAB progression and many dead levels. I feel as though it can't do much else besides adopt a stance. How does one adopt four stances at once without looking ridiculous?

[Inevitability]

This should be in homebrew. I suggest asking a mod to move your thread.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Why does it have the cleric BaB?

In any style you use, a "master" swordsman needs to be able to parry, feint, and riposte. They need solid footwork, and they need to be able to get in under or around an opponent's defenses. Speaking purely in D&D terms, they need expertise, reflexes, the riposte feat from dragon compendium, and a whole slew of other things. And that's just feats. A swordsman archetype should have a prescision damage ability like sneak attack or skirmish, but not as much as a rogue/scout

EDIT: Why exactly do stances give a -2 to ac? The whole point of stances is to be able to defend effectively and attack readily. The only stance that might actually drop ac would be zero stance or fool's guard, but those are tricks.

[Inevitability]

Why does it have the cleric BaB?

It doesn't: clerics don't end with +19 BAB. I'm not sure what it is using for BAB, though.

[Jack_McSnatch]

It doesn't: clerics don't end with +19 BAB. I'm not sure what it is using for BAB, though.

Well that doesn't make any sense either. Even at 1st level, If they've devoted their life to the sword, they're not going to be flailing it ineffectively like a rogue or a wizard.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It doesn't: clerics don't end with +19 BAB. I'm not sure what it is using for BAB, though.

It's just a transposed bab column; increase all numbers by 1 for the correct values.

Should be in homebrew, and I suggest checking out Tome of Battle.

[Kylecaraway]

It is homebrew but i thought i put it on there opps and the class wasnt done i was still working on it i just had another class i was working on and this was a side project to get info. Sorry for posting in wrong category.

Also if your willing to give some feed back i changed the class around and based its bab and saves off of the rogue but gave him a ki amount to spend and based his feats mostly off of the monk since it matches more of a monk with ki. I do understand that some of the homebrewed abilities are to strong witch is why i need feed back. I would wish to make this class balanced with core classes and i realize that it is extremely hard to do but if there are any feats from core i can replace them with or convert my ki system to or even get rid of the ki amount and convert the ki strike abilities to match a blade better. Thank you for any feed back. If wish for me to delete page just post if more than 50% say yes i will.

Also i dont care about what d&d considers a master in something this is a homebrew class of my creation and ultimately i will make the decisions on what the class can do.

In other words stop meta gaming

[weckar]

You want mechanical feedback but no metagaming? And a Quadpost? Oh my man, oh my...

[Deadline]

So it's a worse version of a Monk? Monks are already terrible, and nothing you've presented here looks overpowered. It actually looks really weak. I can't quite figure out why it doesn't have full BAB. You aren't clear on when the Ki pool refreshes. If it's per encounter, then you need to reduce the costs of, well, everything. If it's per day, you might want to rethink the whole system, because you'll be getting maybe 2-3 ki based attacks per day, and then run out of ki points. That's not much for a "Ki Sword Master".

Can it wear armor or not? If not, then does it have the Monk's wisdom based AC? Because if not, it will be getting splattered in melee, which is where it has to be to take advantage of its abilities. Given that it's mostly based around full attacks, the speed bonus is pretty pointless.

Take a look at a Monk 10/Kensai 10 with the Whirling Steel Strike feat (it lets you treat a longsword as a Monk weapon). It seems like it would outperform your homebrew at every step (and Monk 10/Kensai 10 is already pretty weak). You've certainly got an interesting nugget of an idea here, all you need to do now is to power it up quite a bit. Alternatively, if you haven't seen it already, the Swordsage from the Tome of Battle sounds like it might be a good fit for what you are going for here. You may want to look into that for some design ideas and inspiration.

[LordOfCain]

and Monk 10/Kensai 10 is already pretty very weak

Fixed that for ya.

[Kylecaraway]

It says none next to the armor pro so dont know why you didnt see that or at least i thought i put it there but his wisdom will work that way. I was thinking the ki pool was low so i would like some advice there and he has flurry of blades should i scale that the same or should i increase it. And im not sure why the abilities would be bad if they could be increased by stacking the ki i would just have to change the ki per day.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Also i dont care about what d&d considers a master in something this is a homebrew class of my creation and ultimately i will make the decisions on what the class can do.

I was talking real life, cause I'm a fencer IRL, and swordfighting is just about the only thing I can talk about with 100% certainty. And once again, a master swordsman shouldn't have a 3/4 bab. Bab is how capable you are in combat. A 3/4 means you can hold your own, but you aren't a master.

As it is, your homebrew class flops sporadically between too powerful, and not powerful enough. In fact, his abilities don't even seem to revolve around the use of a sword. High crit range and damage does not a swordsman make. Give him some ability to increase his AC with elaborate parrying. Elemental damage is cool, but you might replace some of these ki abilities with sword style abilities. A two weapon fighter would do things like attack in response to an enemy's failed attack. A single sword user might gain uncanny dodge, or a more powerful power attack if they're a two handed fighter. A sword and board would get something of a rapid strike. This is just from my experience, but that's what defines a capable swordsman. If none of that sounds like "your master swordsman" than what you're building isn't an expert with a sword, it's a monk with a pointy stick.

Tl;dr if you want to play a monk with a sword, play a monk with a sword and take the unorthodox flurry feat. Go into Kensai. Boom, you're done.

Further Tl;dr, and if you want to play an absurd anime swordsman with a flaming sword, they made a whole book about that. It was called Tome of Battle.

[Kylecaraway]

You mean the Swordsage that uses maneuvers.

Also fencing is a completely didferent fighting method then most swords in d&d. You wouldnt use a longsword to fence with would you a sword msater would actually be someone who knows how to use all swords to the fullest advantage and as i said the other class that was up wasnt finished and i read your post wrong i thought it said in d&d terms for the sword master topic. My bad.

[weckar]

Kyle, don't take this the wrong way; but it would be a lot easier, and less frustrating, to read your posts if you started using some commas.

[Kylecaraway]

Yea im not a gammar nazi sorry about that ill try and keep an eye out for that and idk why people keep posting negative **** only, i asked for help and all anyone can say is class isnt good. Well no ****, thats why i asked for help.

Also show me a class that works off ki point that isnt kensi or whatever it is, i know this tome of battle and it isnt what i wanted to make hence why i have ****ing ki point and monk abilities. Send me something relevant to the class i made like how to improved it more than a list of two feats and oh go tome of battle or go kensi **** those, if i wanted to make those i wouldve.

Toward mister fencers i am gonna take your advice with those riposite i think is how its spelled and the parrys, all of it but i would like to keep the ki maybe not the abilities though. And question, if a sword master class has to have a full bab then why doesnt the duelest have full bab when he would be the closest core class to a swordsman.

[weckar]

The Ninja uses a Ki system as well, but its implementation is rather different from what you are doing here. May be worth looking into though.

Also, the edit button is in the lower-right corner of a post - for future reference.

[Kylecaraway]

Sorry thats not the core one i was talking about swashbuckler. Duelest is prestige.

[Karl Aegis]

So you took the worst aspects of the lurk and monk, combined them together without fixing any of the problems with the play ability of either class, cut out psionic powers, sneak attack and good saves, and expected it to work.

I don't see any reason why I would play this over a lurk, a monk, or a lurk/monk multiclass.

[Kylecaraway]

Lol thats not what i ment. I know were the edit button is lol.

[weckar]

Then it may be better for the legibility of the whole topic to edit your last post if it is still the last post in the topic, rather than posting 3 or 4 times in a row

[Inevitability]

I suggest removing 'furry aura' (which I assume is meant to read 'fury aura'). Abilities that make you attack teammates are never fun. Destructive rage can be modeled in better ways than forced PvP.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Fencing is the generic catch-all term for fighting with a sword. If you're using a longsword, a broadsword, a shortsword, or even a greatsword, you're still fencing.

Anyway, I see a lot of holy/negative/elemental energy stuff in your progression, which to me says "magic user" rather than "master swordsman." Are you trying to make a mundane (someone with no magic ability), or a gish? (someone who's physical abilities are supplemented by magic.)

[Kylecaraway]

I know what the word fencing means i was more talking about the actual sport. But i would rather its act as you said before with the parrys and etc. I just want there to be ki related abilities as well. I also am in the middle of reworking, just im at work and only get to work on it during my breaks.

So you took the worst aspects of the lurk and monk, combined them together without fixing any of the problems with the play ability of either class, cut out psionic powers, sneak attack and good saves, and expected it to work.

I don't see any reason why I would play this over a lurk, a monk, or a lurk/monk multiclass.

Way to post only negative things and no solutions as i just stated before you posted this, im not interested in your negativity. If i wanted bad feed back i would go play league of legends while kids **** talk me over texting.

I suggest removing 'furry aura' (which I assume is meant to read 'fury aura'). Abilities that make you attack teammates are never fun. Destructive rage can be modeled in better ways than forced PvP.

Agreed, but im having trouble finding a negative solution that isnt just lowering ac like a barbarian would for his rage. What are other methods of a negative effect cause i cant find any. A reference link will do find i just need help finding this.

[Inevitability]

Way to post only negative things and no solutions as i just stated before you posted this, im not interested in your negativity. If i wanted bad feed back i would go play league of legends while kids **** talk me over texting.

Fine.

Positive: BAB follows a legal progression.

Negative: Attacks are poorly-written and fail to make any kind of sense, 'bleeding damage' isn't a thing, no-save con damage is something that shouldn't be in the game (not to mention that it doesn't make sense), abilities have cheesy names, no primary melee should have 3/4ths BAB (swordsage least has maneuvers to compensate), class skills should probably be expanded (no craft and profession?), class features are weak (slow fall ain't no capstone), class features are cheaply copied (like 80% of that is straight from the monk), class will have horrible AC, class gets more ki powers than exist, fluff is nonexistent. Also, your overall attitude towards people providing honest criticism has been extremely hostile.

[Kylecaraway]

Fine.

Positive: BAB follows a legal progression.

Negative: Attacks are poorly-written and fail to make any kind of sense, 'bleeding damage' isn't a thing, no-save con damage is something that shouldn't be in the game (not to mention that it doesn't make sense), abilities have cheesy names, no primary melee should have 3/4ths BAB (swordsage least has maneuvers to compensate), class skills should probably be expanded (no craft and profession?), class features are weak (slow fall ain't no capstone), class features are cheaply copied (like 80% of that is straight from the monk), class will have horrible AC, class gets more ki powers than exist, fluff is nonexistent. Also, your overall attitude towards people providing honest criticism has been extremely hostile.

If you look ive only been hostile to those who dont put solutions and just negative feed back, thats not what forms are for. And i left it poorly done cause i knew i would have to go in a fix it later the abilities dont need fancy name, i get to the point of what an ability does and most of the feats in the game are poorly named to begin with. Cleave gives another attack but that not even the word's definition. And if all melee classes are supposed to have a full bab the what the swashbuckler's excuse. I know that sword sage gets maneuvers to compensate and im working on reworking the class as of 4 hours ago and i explained why in an earlier post. Also im right, you only posted something negative with no solution. Tell me if you were in progress of making something and trying to fine tune it, would you be mad if all that was posted is negative comments with no solutions. You probably would and would become hostile to those who aren' t actually helping.

If you look ive only been hostile to those who dont put solutions and just negative feed back, thats not what forms are for. And i left it poorly done cause i knew i would have to go in a fix it later the abilities dont need fancy name, i get to the point of what an ability does and most of the feats in the game are poorly named to begin with. Cleave gives another attack but that not even the word's definition. And if all melee classes are supposed to have a full bab the what the swashbuckler's excuse. I know that sword sage gets maneuvers to compensate and im working on reworking the class as of 4 hours ago and i explained why in an earlier post. Also im right, you only posted something negative with no solution. Tell me if you were in progress of making something and trying to fine tune it, would you be mad if all that was posted is negative comments with no solutions. You probably would and would become hostile to those who aren' t actually helping.

Also you are meta gaming super hard, bleeding doesnt exist lol ok so your saying that its impossible for someone to bleed out cause this is 3.5. If every homebrew fallowed this logic of having to fallow mechanics that only exist in game then they wouldnt be homebrew now would they. Homebrewing is about experimenting in the making of a new class and there are no rules to homebrewing. I see people make up theyre own mechanics for classes all the time but i bet you it took them awhile to balance out and figure out what really works and what doesnt. So all i ask is to post solutions not only negativity. Youll see my attitude change if you post helpful info.

[Yael]

I think that multiposting could be against the forum rules? Just saiyan.

Reads rules

Yes it is, and this Quadraposting is kinda off, too.

Anyway, the class has a theme, and I'll review to help, here

Spoiler: Rating

Show

Good
Average/Okay
Bad

Spoiler: Essencials

Show

HD d8 This is fine. Could be better, but we're not talking on a battle-hardened warrior, but a swift master of the sword. Could be better, but it's okay.
Skills 6+Int. Why that high? The point of a lot of skills is the time you dedicate to be able to learn them to do them easier than those who do not. That's why the rogue has 8+Int and the Fighter 2. I think this should go down to 4, just like the duelist and Swashbucklers'.
Skill list is as the duelist. So we are considering.

Class Skills
The duelist’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).

Unless you were refering to the Swashbuckler's skills, which are:

The swashbuckler’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

The second would be better because they are pretty much the same, and improves giving options like diplomacy, and craft.
Base Attack Bonus 3/4, as Cleric. This should be Good, as Fighter. Period.
Saves Good Reflexes Fits the theme. It hurts to have bad Fortitude while being melee, but other classes have done the same.

Spoiler: Class Features

Show

Weapon and Armor Proficiency Proficient with all Light Simple and Martial Weapons, but no armor. Weapon proficiency is fine (this should reflect the Good BAB, but whatever.. Armor is always important, this class will suffer from flat-footed more than it should.
By the way, if this is not including Simple weapons, and instead includes Light (?), we're going wrong.
AC Bonus (Ex) Helps with the lack of armor, but still makes the class even MADer.
Flurry of Blades (Ex) Is weak as its Monk counterpart. Sure it deals a bit more damage, depending on the weapon you're using, and needs no non-approved Amulet of Natural Attacks shenanigans, but still weaker because Flurry of Blows can be used with slashing, piercing or bludgeoning weapons (and to deal non-lethal) at not additional penalty. Additionally, it costs 1 Ki to perform per character level? Hell no! Still fits the theme. Nice name tho.
Evasion (Ex) Solid.
Ki Blade 1 (?) The class' bread and butter I guess.
Elemental Ki Strikes Situational but weak bonus compared to the cost, especially as the cost is minimum 2.
Bane Ki Strike As above, and this one involves a lot of metagame unless you're running the appropiate Knowledges (which this class does not offer)
Otherly Strike Good for evil parties, healing undead is fun Weak otherwise.
Still Mind (Ex) If this works as the Still Mind class feature for the monk, it is pretty useless for this class, unless you take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Anyway, grabs it a level earlier so there's that.
Slow Fall (Ex) Weak. If exactly as monk, you better have a wall to slow that fall on, bro.
Ki Blade 2 (?)
Keen Strike It won't be that useful because the low amount of ki retained. Retardly strong at high levels. This shouldn't stack with Keen.
Bleeding Strike Wow this is very overpowered at high levels. Should be reduced to 2d6 or increase its ki cost. Taking 6d6 for three turns after taking a hit for only 8 ki? No thanks.
Poisonous Strike Should allow a save. This is basically a Black Lotus Extract at level 10th.
Improved Evasion (Ex) Needed.
Ki Blade 3 (?)
Mythical Strike Weak. Should be down to Ki Blade 2.
Hell Strike As Mythical Strike.
God Strike Seriously, these three should be swapped with Ki Blade 2's.
Diamond Body Useful. Not great.
Greater Flurry of Blades (Ex) Same as Flurry of Blades.
Ki Blade 4 (?) No wording on abilities yet.
Keen Ki Strike Nothing yet.
Ki Blade 3 (Chose from 3) (?) Weird wording.
Ki Blade 5 (?) As Ki Blade 4.
Ki Stance No wording.
Ki Aura Unless this is meant to be Ki Stance, which is terribly weak.

Spoiler: Overall opinion so far

Show

Weak class. It gains some prestige by ripping off the Unchained Monk's Ki Powers, but still weaker than your average PF Monk, which is what this class is aimed for, I think.

[Kylecaraway]

Fencing is the generic catch-all term for fighting with a sword. If you're using a longsword, a broadsword, a shortsword, or even a greatsword, you're still fencing.

Anyway, I see a lot of holy/negative/elemental energy stuff in your progression, which to me says "magic user" rather than "master swordsman." Are you trying to make a mundane (someone with no magic ability), or a gish? (someone who's physical abilities are supplemented by magic.)

Question would still minded be a good feat to keep in. It looks good on paper but i dont know how it would actually perform in game.

[Kylecaraway]

I think that multiposting could be against the forum rules? Just saiyan.

Reads rules

Yes it is, and this Quadraposting is kinda off, too.

Anyway, the class has a theme, and I'll review to help, here

Spoiler: Rating

Show

Good
Average/Okay
Bad

Spoiler: Essencials

Show

HD d8 This is fine. Could be better, but we're not talking on a battle-hardened warrior, but a swift master of the sword. Could be better, but it's okay.
Skills 6+Int. Why that high? The point of a lot of skills is the time you dedicate to be able to learn them to do them easier than those who do not. That's why the rogue has 8+Int and the Fighter 2. I think this should go down to 4, just like the duelist and Swashbucklers'.
Skill list is as the duelist. So we are considering.
Unless you were refering to the Swashbuckler's skills, which are:
The second would be better because they are pretty much the same, and improves giving options like diplomacy, and craft.
Base Attack Bonus 3/4, as Cleric. This should be Good, as Fighter. Period.
Saves Good Reflexes Fits the theme. It hurts to have bad Fortitude while being melee, but other classes have done the same.

Spoiler: Class Features

Show

Weapon and Armor Proficiency Proficient with all Light Simple and Martial Weapons, but no armor. Weapon proficiency is fine (this should reflect the Good BAB, but whatever.. Armor is always important, this class will suffer from flat-footed more than it should.
By the way, if this is not including Simple weapons, and instead includes Light (?), we're going wrong.
AC Bonus (Ex) Helps with the lack of armor, but still makes the class even MADer.
Flurry of Blades (Ex) Is weak as its Monk counterpart. Sure it deals a bit more damage, depending on the weapon you're using, and needs no non-approved Amulet of Natural Attacks shenanigans, but still weaker because Flurry of Blows can be used with slashing, piercing or bludgeoning weapons (and to deal non-lethal) at not additional penalty. Additionally, it costs 1 Ki to perform per character level? Hell no! Still fits the theme. Nice name tho.
Evasion (Ex) Solid.
Ki Blade 1 (?) The class' bread and butter I guess.
Elemental Ki Strikes Situational but weak bonus compared to the cost, especially as the cost is minimum 2.
Bane Ki Strike As above, and this one involves a lot of metagame unless you're running the appropiate Knowledges (which this class does not offer)
Otherly Strike Good for evil parties, healing undead is fun Weak otherwise.
Still Mind (Ex) If this works as the Still Mind class feature for the monk, it is pretty useless for this class, unless you take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Anyway, grabs it a level earlier so there's that.
Slow Fall (Ex) Weak. If exactly as monk, you better have a wall to slow that fall on, bro.
Ki Blade 2 (?)
Keen Strike It won't be that useful because the low amount of ki retained. Retardly strong at high levels. This shouldn't stack with Keen.
Bleeding Strike Wow this is very overpowered at high levels. Should be reduced to 2d6 or increase its ki cost. Taking 6d6 for three turns after taking a hit for only 8 ki? No thanks.
Poisonous Strike Should allow a save. This is basically a Black Lotus Extract at level 10th.
Improved Evasion (Ex) Needed.
Ki Blade 3 (?)
Mythical Strike Weak. Should be down to Ki Blade 2.
Hell Strike As Mythical Strike.
God Strike Seriously, these three should be swapped with Ki Blade 2's.
Diamond Body Useful. Not great.
Greater Flurry of Blades (Ex) Same as Flurry of Blades.
Ki Blade 4 (?) No wording on abilities yet.
Keen Ki Strike Nothing yet.
Ki Blade 3 (Chose from 3) (?) Weird wording.
Ki Blade 5 (?) As Ki Blade 4.
Ki Stance No wording.
Ki Aura Unless this is meant to be Ki Stance, which is terribly weak.

Spoiler: Overall opinion so far

Show

Weak class. It gains some prestige by ripping off the Unchained Monk's Ki Powers, but still weaker than your average PF Monk, which is what this class is aimed for, I think.

I said i would delete whole post if everyone wanted. And sorry about quad post i just wasnt sure how to quote ppl and wasnt sure what it ment. Im new to the site but not to d&d. I wont lye and say ive been creating classes for long but ive been at it for about 8 months. Im in middle pf a rework of pretty much all feats.