Tweaking D&D: Synergy, Skill Feats, and Competence Bonuses

[Miles Invictus]

In the Core rules, we have a number of ways to boost skill checks. In addition to synergy bonuses, we have feats like Agile and Athletic, as well as the Skill Focus series. These all stack, meaning that a character with the right feat selection can become highly, highly effective at certain tasks.

Some specialized builds -- like the diplomancer Bard -- are powerful to the point that they can break a campaign if left unchecked. On the other hand, we have the Truenamer, whose insanely high Truespeak DCs (15 + twice target's CR) force him to invest in multiple skill feats just to stay competitive.

So, let's say that we rule that synergy bonuses do not stack, and that all skill feats give competence bonuses (and thus, also do not stack). How would this affect the game? How badly would we need to tweak DCs to keep things balanced? Is this preferable to the current system?

[Damionte]

Not preferable.

Rather than try to re-build the system I'd simply rule the 2 or 3 problem skills differently. Only diplomacy is really a serious problem. And you can judge your way around that one. I don't see any problems with anythign else.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Skill feats are already unpopular except in specialized cases like the Diplomancer. Changing them to competence bonuses means that they become completely worthless, as magic items offer considerably higher competence bonuses and are a smaller investment than an entire feat.

[Ulzgoroth]

Diplomacy is gibberish as written. With the Giant's version, or The Alexandrian's, which derives from it, breaking the world doesn't follow from the Diplomancer build.

Skill feats are already not popular, it seems to me. Why hurt them more?

[Borogove]

diplomacy can be made less broken (but not fixed) by adding the targets hitdice to the listed DCs. Not perfect, but workable.

[Callix]

The trouble with the Diplomancer in the Giant's variant is he can convince an enemy to accept this deal:
"You stop fighting us, and we come over there and CDG you. In return, you get nothing"
Deal evaluation: Horrible (+10 DC)
Relationship modifier: Enemy or worse (+5 and up to DC)
Enemy HD for appropriate encounter roughly = 1.5*Bard's HD
Enemy wis bonus: Variable, no more than +20 (extreme)

So for a worst-case CR20+ encounter for the Diplomancer 20, DC= 40+20+10+10=80.
Diplomancers can easily get a +80 modifier with a few dips and checks. Even allowing for the enemy roll at maximum (100), the record builds are +220ish. No problem, no need to roll. So it still breaks all encounters with thinking beings.

[Attilargh]

That's just because there's so many Diplomacy-boosting things in the game. PHB Diplomacy can be broken using only the PHB, by the third or fourth level.

[Matthew]

In my estimation, the easiest way to deal with this is by limiting what can be done by Skill Ranks. That way, bonuses are good for opposed rolls, but truly outrageous feats of Diplomacy/Bluff/etc.. are limited by Level.

[brian c]

The trouble with the Diplomancer in the Giant's variant is he can convince an enemy to accept this deal:
"You stop fighting us, and we come over there and CDG you. In return, you get nothing"
Deal evaluation: Horrible (+10 DC)
Relationship modifier: Enemy or worse (+5 and up to DC)
Enemy HD for appropriate encounter roughly = 1.5*Bard's HD
Enemy wis bonus: Variable, no more than +20 (extreme)

So for a worst-case CR20+ encounter for the Diplomancer 20, DC= 40+20+10+10=80.
Diplomancers can easily get a +80 modifier with a few dips and checks. Even allowing for the enemy roll at maximum (100), the record builds are +220ish. No problem, no need to roll. So it still breaks all encounters with thinking beings.

Um... yes, but with the standard rules, it's even easier to get an opponent from "Hostile" to "friendly", which effectively also stops them from fighting you.

[ZeroNumerous]

That's just because there's so many Diplomacy-boosting things in the game. PHB Diplomacy can be broken using only the PHB, by the third or fourth level.

Using Complete Arcane(Warlock) and Miniatures Handbook(Marshal) it can be broken at 2nd if you have an 18 Charisma. (16 is good too)

[Attilargh]

Using Complete Arcane(Warlock) and Miniatures Handbook(Marshal) it can be broken at 2nd if you have an 18 Charisma. (16 is good too)

I believe it's also doable at second level with the Flaws and Traits system from Unearthed Arcana. Takes two minutes to get the foe from Hostile to Friendly, though.

[Diggorian]

I've handled this topic by taking a page from Star Wars D20 where skill synergy is GM discretion. Name dropping powerful lords (Know: Royalty/Nobility) doesnt help when negotiating with trolls to waive the toll for a mountain path.

Aside from using Burlew's variant (which works for me), it also takes a minute to make the Diplomacy check ... alot can happen in that minute.

[CASTLEMIKE]

In the D20 A Game of Thrones Diplomacy just inflluences and works pretty nicely.

The variant changeling rogue gets Social Intuition and can take 10 on Diplomacy checks.