General WoD Discussion #5: Chronicles of Duty: Modern Darkness

[Anonymouswizard]

That strikes me as an argument for game design rather than the reality. We make guns for purposes, and it just so happens that to kill or destroy something efficiently is a common purpose. From a game play mechanic, it might seem very unfair that a mook with a big gun can end your Get elder/salubri methuselah you've minmaxed for endurance, but from an RP standpoint, if you go hunting for a big bear, and the storyteller refuses you a rifle that'll kill a bear in the optimal amount of shots (unless you've got at least an eight dice pool and an aimed shot) Then thats gonna suck for roleplay.
Granted, you could probably put the cannons with some soak reduction rather than just straight and ultra lethal damage,

The question is, which is more likely from a gameplay standpoint, somebody shooting at your elder or hunting bears?

No, seriously, I don't know, I tend to run games in my home country, and we tend not to have firearms or bears

[comicshorse]

Even with high damage the chances of a mook with a big gun ending a high level Vampire are pretty damn small anyway. As said Mook has to get ahold of the weapon (which as pointed out above is VERY hard in lots of places). Then find out where they are (which if the Vampire has two brain cells to rub together should be the hardest part) and then sneak up on the Vampire while carrying a serious lump of metal and then punch his ticket with the first shot.
There's also then the minor point that his lifespan is now measured in days until Kindred society catches up with him (or the ATF)

[The Jack]

Higher calibers for hunting rifles are relatively easy to come by; in some places it's the law that you need a gun of at least a certain amount of power to hunt x or y humanely.
So long as you're not getting anti-material guns or cannons, power restrictions arent the problem. Most restrictions concern concealability, rate of fire and capacity; how much bang you use is of much less concern.

If you're hunting garou or putting the final death to vampires, knowing how tough they are, you'll want to pack for bear.
Rifles that do 14 dice of damage shouldn't be unwieldy to relatively fit people and wouldnt stand out especially to people without firearms knowledge.

Also, silver is relatively cheap and you can recycle it . First teams should be using the good stuff all the time...


PS
Anyone got any good ideas for an unconventional Tremere build? Not the usual or obvious stuff (I know LoF, MotM, FM and Mercury are really powerful) But the weird stuff. I was thinking a swordsman; Four levels of spirit manipulation for a fetish, a level of transmutation for armour, all the wards possible on my person and clinging of the insect/that one that makes you smoke/move through walls for getting around.
How do wards work on weapons anyway? Do you roll the ward damage seperately or do you lump it in with the weapon? What happens if you combine it with burning blade?
Also, principle focus of vitae infusion to open padlocks and destroy evidence, anyone tried using it this way?

[SaurOps]

That strikes me as an argument for game design rather than the reality. We make guns for purposes, and it just so happens that to kill or destroy something efficiently is a common purpose. From a game play mechanic, it might seem very unfair that a mook with a big gun can end your Get elder/salubri methuselah you've minmaxed for endurance, but from an RP standpoint, if you go hunting for a big bear, and the storyteller refuses you a rifle that'll kill a bear in the optimal amount of shots (unless you've got at least an eight dice pool and an aimed shot) Then thats gonna suck for roleplay.
Granted, you could probably put the cannons with some soak reduction rather than just straight and ultra lethal damage,

The efficiency is in not needing to be near something and being able to spit lead out, as well as being stupid simple to use and, with infrastructure, produce and hand out to a bunch of potential combatants. This applies to both reality and game design - if it were that easy to kill something with any given gun, no one and nothing would survive gunshots, yet people and larger animals do get shot and do survive them quite frequently. Instant death requires very careful aim, and when dealing with monsters not wholly of the world of matter and flesh, even that's going to get way harder, especially if one is capable of layering on soak Gifts.

[The Jack]

Not any given gun, a bfg.

If you shoot someone with a kar98, and it does 12 dice of damage, and you only get one success to hit, it'll average to 6 dice of damage (I don't count 1's or 0's on damage rolls*, but if i did that average would be lower.)
Unless you're using mook rules, most would survive that (bleeding out is irrelevant for this discussion). If you hit a limb, the most you can do is 3 damage anyway. if you get a solid hit of 3 die, most humans would die in a hit. The average claith,neonate or bear would survive.

If you were to go bigger bullet, you're overkilling an unarmoured human. But, hey, the carry over you get is still relevant as you shoot bigger garou.

Looking at it the other way, if you one-shot a garou with an air rifle because you have a dice pool of 14 and lucked out... ( i cap carryover)

On the otherhand, if you shoot a dude at -cant possibly miss- with one dice, the results are going to be unspectacular .
"Ryan and Hannah both shoot their respective twin enemies between the eyes with the same gun in the same way, but given that Ryan has more dice than Hannah, only his victim loses a life."

[raygun goth]

So, after digging through the Cam book, seems like nuWW is doubling down on its target audience and target playstyle, in such a way that to even try to discuss the contents of the book itself will probably break forum rules.

[The Jack]

Well, ive not read it. But I'm pretty sure if WoD wants to be more political then it needs to follow the south park model: Everyone's a target, don't actively take sides.That was a nice thing about the earlier WoD books; they were awful to everyone.

Of course a sect book would be political though. "Vampire politics are political, the outrage!"

But that aside, the sect books, any good?

[raygun goth]

Well, ive not read it. But I'm pretty sure if WoD wants to be more political then it needs to follow the south park model: Everyone's a target, don't actively take sides.That was a nice thing about the earlier WoD books; they were awful to everyone.

Of course a sect book would be political though. "Vampire politics are political, the outrage!"

But that aside, the sect books, any good?

It's not that it's "political," it's "Chechnya's policy of putting LGBTQ+ in concentration camps is a vampire psyop and that's just the beginning of this black spiral."

[SaurOps]

Not any given gun, a bfg.

If you shoot someone with a kar98, and it does 12 dice of damage, and you only get one success to hit, it'll average to 6 dice of damage (I don't count 1's or 0's on damage rolls*, but if i did that average would be lower.)

Yeah. If you want a totem of instant death comparable to a BFG, it's going to be mounted on a vehicle, tripod, or fixed emplacement. Rifles are not ToID.

Unless you're using mook rules, most would survive that (bleeding out is irrelevant for this discussion). If you hit a limb, the most you can do is 3 damage anyway. if you get a solid hit of 3 die, most humans would die in a hit. The average claith,neonate or bear would survive.

If you were to go bigger bullet, you're overkilling an unarmoured human. But, hey, the carry over you get is still relevant as you shoot bigger garou.

Looking at it the other way, if you one-shot a garou with an air rifle because you have a dice pool of 14 and lucked out... ( i cap carryover)

Do air rifles even do significant damage in this system?

On the otherhand, if you shoot a dude at -cant possibly miss- with one dice, the results are going to be unspectacular .
"Ryan and Hannah both shoot their respective twin enemies between the eyes with the same gun in the same way, but given that Ryan has more dice than Hannah, only his victim loses a life."

Shooting someone between the eyes requires either an immobile target or, in the way the system handles things, lots and lots of attack successes. In the former case, no roll is likely needed. Note that if someone is close by and not immobilized, they can dodge the attack and wrestle the gun away from the wielder, so standard combat rules apply, especially if up against werewolves who always win initiative and move quickly enough that Imbued Avengers nicknamed them "flickers".

Well, ive not read it. But I'm pretty sure if WoD wants to be more political then it needs to follow the south park model: Everyone's a target, don't actively take sides.That was a nice thing about the earlier WoD books; they were awful to everyone.

Of course a sect book would be political though. "Vampire politics are political, the outrage!"

But that aside, the sect books, any good?

South Park's model is aimless, meandering, and worthless. It punches down often enough that you really can't distinguish it from a garden variety white supremacist trying to fit in from time to time... because that's quite possibly what's going on in the first place.

[Anonymouswizard]

It's not that it's "political," it's "Chechnya's policy of putting LGBTQ+ in concentration camps is a vampire psyop and that's just the beginning of this black spiral."

Wait.

What.

Can't humans be evil towards humans? Does everything horrible have to be a Vampire plot?

I mean, I can understand the Camarilla encouraging mistreatment of minorities asking among other things) to cover masquerade beaches, but what reason is there to do it on a large scale? Especially as there must be several Venture who can only feed from LGBTQIBA+ individuals.

Vampire is, at it's core, a game about waking up one day and finding that you're the lowest rung in monster society, and no matter how hard you try there is always the risk of becoming a worse monster. If you want LGBTQ+ themes in there play around with the Caitiff, looked down upon for something they can't control.

[The Jack]

Yeah. If you want a totem of instant death comparable to a BFG, it's going to be mounted on a vehicle, tripod, or fixed emplacement. Rifles are not ToID.

That's not how guns work... but I suppose movie logic is a sound prerogative.

I ballance equipment around humans and then chuck the supernaturals in. To humans, a 30.06, a .375 and an elephant gun arent very different in their capacity to end your day.

Do air rifles even do significant damage in this system?

Well, as you're a proponent of skill>bullet power for damage, Id imagine so. A vampire with 5 celerity, 5 dex and 1 firearms is going to have a higher damage potential with a bb gun than a 1 dex kid with a 12 guage...

Shooting someone between the eyes requires either an immobile target or, in the way the system handles things, lots and lots of attack successes. In the former case, no roll is likely needed. Note that if someone is close by and not immobilized, they can dodge the attack and wrestle the gun away from the wielder, so standard combat rules apply, especially if up against werewolves who always win initiative and move quickly enough that Imbued Avengers nicknamed them "flickers".

It'd be a difficulty 9 roll in at least 20th.

South Park's model is aimless, meandering, and worthless. It punches down often enough that you really can't distinguish it from a garden variety white supremacist trying to fit in from time to time... because that's quite possibly what's going on in the first place.

I don't think you understand it, so let's jump ahead a bit;

In the WoD, bad things are amplified. Progressive, conservative, reactionary, whatever... all worse.
And i think that's solid. If you rip on everyone equally, and "show, don't tell" in your narrative, you can appeal to far more people, as more people tend to zone in on what's relevant to them, dismiss a lot of things targeted at them as fair comedy, and think "this book is on my side".

V5 (and some 20th) doesnt do that . It proclaims that x is good and y is bad, that x people are better than y people, and that the values of x are to be championed and the values of y are to be rediculed.
That's not palatable to anyone between those two groups, and as someone with some very strong x views, but with more than a juvenile understanding of y views, I felt very against this book, I felt like group x were portrayed as completely and utterly inept given the abysmal quality of the writing where this stuff came up and the complete lack of tact, nuance and knowledge they showed by agressively and blindly waving their flags .

Dear most merciful mods; This is a literature review, please see X and Y as interchangable with any subject people get heated over. Like what parts of Star Wars they like, if they like their pizzas more Italian or more American, or if cricket was a British plot to murder colonial viewers with boredom.

(Of the new writers, i liked Mathew's stuff, the dude gave value to lore of the bloodlines, and he puts forth the SI quite well. That said, I only know that he didnt write the worst of v5, as the style's quite different for most of that)

[comicshorse]

Dear most merciful mods; This is a literature review, please see X and Y as interchangable with any subject people get heated over. Like what parts of Star Wars they like, if they like their pizzas more Italian or more American, or if cricket was a British plot to murder colonial viewers with boredom.

Damn, he's on to us

[Jeivar]

Two things, if I may:

One: I peeked at Drivethrurpg and discovered that there is a new version of Vampire the Masquerade out. It makes me wonder why I bought that super-duper V20 version a little while back.

Two: While I and my friends have been familiar with VtM for years and like discussing the lore, we've only played it very little, and briefly. Just how do you run a VtM game? Even one intended for a single story spanning a few sessions?

D&D is a luxury in this regard: "Monsters. Go Kill."

But vamps are living in the semi-real world, at the bottom of a hierarchy of monsters. As I understand WoD, combat is meant to be a relative rarity. Shootouts draw police, after all, and the Camarilla doesn't like attention. There is the whole politics thing, but I just don't know what to do with that or how to spin an entire campaign around "Become slightly more relevant."

I suppose one could give the coterie territory that intersects with that of another group of lesser vampires, and the elders just go "settle it yourselves." But if the party just thinks of a clever way to eliminate the competition without implicating themselves, that doesn't leave much to do.

So, you methuselahs here: How do you run VtM campaigns?

[The Jack]

Think of a turn based time strategy game. The map is the city and the big players are the old vampires with their own plans, some of them very petty or apparently irrational (on the surface at least)
The players start like vassals, they either want good relations with their neighbours or to carve out their own powerbase. They can't be friends with everyone, because x might want to use the players against y and vice versa. But on the otherhand, sometimes it's just good to keep mortals down/thinbloods in check/hunters away/cults from apearing or so on. Keeping the masquerade is paramount.

[AshfireMage]

There's a fair number of plots outside "become slightly more relevant" (although I do love that way of describing typical PC maneuvers, it's so true, lol), but a lot of them could even be folded into a chronicle themed after that as sort of waystops. Think about the big facets of a Camarilla vampire's life- they want to get blood, protect the masquerade, and acquire more power and respect, as well as fulfilling any personal goals they might have. So put one of those in jeopardy and that will give the PCs motivation to act. Is there some kind of vampire hunter killing off neonates in their area? Are a whole bunch of the nightclubs they depend on for food closing up quickly? Come up with an interesting answer and a few ways the PCs can solve it (although, of course, you should be open to creative solutions) and there you've got a plot.

If it's just intended to be a couple-session game, you probably only need one thing. If it's not, try to tie it into something bigger, directly or indirectly.

Another thing that works in your favor is the Camarilla system of boons. If your PCs want something, have them do other stuff to acquire favors to make it happen. To use an example from a game I was a part of, I had a Tremere character. When he arrived in the city, he found that, due to the actions of various members of the clan, they were no longer allowed primogen representation and the prince was watching them like a hawk to make sure they didn't screw up again. That worked great as a catalyst for making things happen, because now my character wanted to curry favor with the prince and prove that he was a useful and loyal member of the Camarilla, and therefore would do all sorts of things that he had little to no motivation to do personally.

Another PC, a Giovanni, arrived in the city and found that the family had been split into two factions, each with different ideas about how to handle what was going on. Her game wound up being about deciding who to support, and then trying to advance both her faction and the family as a whole by her actions.

I guess I'm kind of rambling now, but my overall thought here is that the "quests" so to speak that your character is doing is often not about the actual thing they're trying to accomplish, but what it gets them towards their goals. That's also a good way to incorperate different styles of gaming, since some things are going to require combat, others a more social or puzzle-solving approach.

Since I feel like this has been kind of not-helpful, here's some suggestions for broader plots-

* As you suggested, the PCs have some kind of territory that they want to protect. Someone is attempting to take this from them, be it mortals who accidentally or intentionally want to change or get rid of whatever gives them their hold on it, vampires from their own sect who are jealous, or vampires from another sect trying to invade who don't care much who it belongs to, just that they're with the enemy and therefore must be destroyed

* There is some kind of threat to the Masquerade that the PCs must deal with without causing more questions than they answer

* Some other supernatural creature is doing something that the PCs (or their bosses) don't like, and they have to figure out how to deal with it.

* Someone has done something to the PCs, and they must now discredit that person or eliminate them without getting into more trouble

* There are multiple factions within the city, and the PCs must choose which one to support (or none of them) and advance their own objectives

* Another sect is invading and they must be repelled (good for a combat-heavy game, but you can also do something more political or mystery-based if it's a less-overt invasion or in its early stages)

One last thought is that Vampire seems to work best as a very PC-driven game. So making sure you have good players with strong characters, and that you do a detailed Session 0 to figure out what they want and how they could work together is super important. Even more so than D&D or similar, don't fall into the trap of assuming you can work with whatever kinds of PCs show up.

[The Jack]

So I'm interested in playing a setite. I understand the philosophy and how the main cult works, and I don't plan on acting out hammy sleaze (Even if i was inspired by the mesoamerican nightclub from the movie From Dusk till Dawn. My main concern is the subsect of setite.

Flavour wise, the meso's and egyptians are close at top teir(though i think the protean on a setite is bs) The indians are not far behind but maybe more difficult to justify in a yank game. The serpents of the light... were they sabbat exclusive and would they have impressive temple themed nighclubs?

But, most pressing is the magic. They all have very different sorcery tied to different religious practices, and there's pros and cons to that. But my driving question is which setite sorcery is the most fun ( for players and storytellers) the most complete and the most powerful-but-gm-friendly? I look at a lot of the exclusive paths rituals and i feel wary.

[comicshorse]

The serpents of the light... were they sabbat exclusive and would they have impressive temple themed nighclubs?

Serpents of the light are exclusively Sabbat, as for the nightclubs it depends how confident they feel about making themselves easy to find for their hostile, non Sabbat, kin

[Jeivar]

I appreciate the responses to my earlier question.

A new one: Is there some final verdict on Celerity in the latest version of VtM? My friends and I considered the old version to be massive broken. The V20 version then added the feature of Celerity dots adding to Dexterity. The 20th anniversary version for Dark Ages then nerfed it into reducing penalties for multiple actions.

What's the Fifth Edition take?

[The Jack]

I don't think 1 blood=one extra action is so terrible. I had a read of 1e celerity once and wow is it different: generational limits.
I do like that v20Da limited celerity attacks to 1+half your celerity (unless you used a bow, which would also mean modern firearms )

V5 celerity is a bunch of disparate powers loosly related to speed. It's more like path of blood/focused mind than lure of flames, movement of mind or even levinbolt, if you know what i mean. Every level of v5's celerity is a very specific effect rather than a discipline you build upon.

[Jeivar]

V5 celerity is a bunch of disparate powers loosly related to speed. It's more like path of blood/focused mind than lure of flames, movement of mind or even levinbolt, if you know what i mean. Every level of v5's celerity is a very specific effect rather than a discipline you build upon.

Hmm.

Does it do anything to fix the combat?

In old Vampire a character with Dex 3 and Melee 4 rolls seven dice. Gets four successes. The opponent rolls dodge, gets one success, leaving three attack successes. The attacker adds Strength 3 and Potence 2 to the weapon's score of 3 and the 2 extra successes. The attacker rolls ten dice, for four successes. The defender rolls Stamina 2, Fortitude 1 and Armor 1, for two successes. So the defender takes two damage.

That's four rolls. Not exactly elegant.

[The Jack]

Here's something simple.
Roll to hit
Roll to dodge.
Half the base damage+carry over (I cap carry over at 5. I want to encourage targeted attacks)
Reduce damage by armour and half your stamina+defensive powers(if applicable)
Round down.

Of course, irregular things like fire or eletricity should probably still be rolled.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I appreciate the responses to my earlier question.

A new one: Is there some final verdict on Celerity in the latest version of VtM? My friends and I considered the old version to be massive broken. The V20 version then added the feature of Celerity dots adding to Dexterity. The 20th anniversary version for Dark Ages then nerfed it into reducing penalties for multiple actions.

What's the Fifth Edition take?

It's useful at all levels without being an incredibly overpowering must pick for all combat characters. Potence is actually much better in combat now, while still offering powers that can be used in such situations. The 5th dot powers are especially good. The linear progression of the physical disciplines is, thankfully, gone. Hopefully for good.

[Jeivar]

The 5th dot powers are especially good. The linear progression of the physical disciplines is, thankfully, gone. Hopefully for good.

Intriguing. But are you saying that Potence and Fortitude no longer add dots to Strength and Stamina?

I'm thinking of starting a little project of reworking V20, particularly the disciplines, and adding some rules.

For example, I want to give all vampires night vision. Which makes the first dot of Protean pointless. I would drop Feral Claws down to the first dot, Earth Meld second, shapeshifting third, mist form fourth, and for the fifth dot I would borrow the "War Form" idea from Bloodlines.

For Potence I want it to add to Strength (vampires should have super strength, damn it!), but also multiply jump distance and the like. I'm thinking of having Celerity mostly just add to movement, reaction and precision. As for Fortitude... well, I would like for it to do more than just ONE thing, under circumstances best avoided. I'm thinking of letting it allow a roll to break weapons that strike you.

Stuff like that.

[The Jack]

Intriguing. But are you saying that Potence and Fortitude no longer add dots to Strength and Stamina?

I'm thinking of starting a little project of reworking V20, particularly the disciplines, and adding some rules.

For example, I want to give all vampires night vision. Which makes the first dot of Protean pointless. I would drop Feral Claws down to the first dot, Earth Meld second, shapeshifting third, mist form fourth, and for the fifth dot I would borrow the "War Form" idea from Bloodlines.

For Potence I want it to add to Strength (vampires should have super strength, damn it!), but also multiply jump distance and the like. I'm thinking of having Celerity mostly just add to movement, reaction and precision. As for Fortitude... well, I would like for it to do more than just ONE thing, under circumstances best avoided. I'm thinking of letting it allow a roll to break weapons that strike you.

Stuff like that.

V:tMPotence already increases jump distance and climb speed, as those are strength dependent (It's also great for grappling/tackles.) There's a combo discipline in LotC which lets you multiply the jump distance by the lower of your pot/celerity (which i agree, would be nicer as an inate abiloty rather than a combo)

RAW Potence should allow you the ability to climb surfaces you wouldnt normally climb, getting automatic successes on difficulty 9 walls makes the city your oyster.

I believe potence isn't just strength, the physical disciplines are each a laugh at physics. F=M*A+P-F. I used to puzzle that fortitude combo disciplines kept you standing when it'd be easier to roll with the punches. But hey, maybe it doesnt make you tougher, it makes forces that act against you less, because the oposite effect sure makes sense for potence (how much harder would it be to punch through brick walls obeying the laws of physics?)

So, In fortitude
It preserves your clothes from damage when convenient, Which is more masquerade friendly than showing your pasty flesh after you go undamaged from a hail of bullets.
-It should add to rolls that keep you standing when something's trying to knock you down.

I think potence/fortitude also augt to reduce wound penalties (you're not hurting yourself/its easier to move) at a certain level and potence should make stamina/athetics rolls irelevant.

A thing that upsets me about v5 is that disciplines have completely different metaphysics to them (both real and theorized) The reason why dominate (and most common disciplines) didnt use blood whilst presence did could be chalked up to the human reliance on power structures and our willingness to be in our place: we don't want to see the obfuscated nosferatu, we should obey the boss-looking man in the suit. Presence used blood because manipulating someone to like you is an investment whilst ordering an underling around is effortless on your part. Yes, the mechanics are arguably unfair, but there was meaning to it and it enriched the setting. V5 on the otherhand is incredibly gamey.

But also, since v5 auspex and fortitude aren't always on and must be prepped, elders should be easy game.
Since dominate is outrageously unsubtle, and obfuscate needs reources the masquerade should've never survived the colonial era

Oh, i believe it's implied that all vampires are better at seeing in the dark, before auspex. I too think protean 1 is weak, so i attach cool stuff to it:
You can also see in overly bright light.
Through fog,mist,rain and murk.
Nobody can see where your eyes are looking, which comes with many small things.
I'll let you buy the power again at half cost for sense powers;Scent of sight, ecolocation, thermal vision, whatever makes sense for your character...

[Ignimortis]

It's useful at all levels without being an incredibly overpowering must pick for all combat characters. Potence is actually much better in combat now, while still offering powers that can be used in such situations. The 5th dot powers are especially good. The linear progression of the physical disciplines is, thankfully, gone. Hopefully for good.

Celerity was bull, of course, but that's because it acted as a multiplier of actions - if you just had Celerity, it was a waste of blood, but if you had Potence and Protean, then it was broken. My favourite fix was to instead allow your split actions to apply to multiple targets (1 bonus target per Celerity rating) for 1 BP. As in, you say "I'm dodging for 3 dice and then another dodge for 2 dice", and then you dodge every single one of six attackers for 3 and 2 dice. The alternate use gave you 1 extra action with a dicepool equal to your Celerity (so 5 at best), which could be used to make one extra attack or another dodge or something.

But Potence was always excellent, especially in V20, because you could pick up a car and throw it at someone, or jump three stories (more with Celerity+Potence combo), or break a wall. Or just cleave someone from limb to limb, because 6 STR, 4 Potence and a STR+3 damage sword actually means that with some luck on the Melee roll you can bisect even a Gargoyle or a Gangrel in one blow.

Fortitude should've added to Stamina instead of special dice, and let you soak aggravated damage with normal Stamina as well, starting at 3rd dot. That way Gangrel aren't WTFOMGBBQ scary if you've got Fortitude at least.

Giving each and every Discipline power a cost and no passive effects was part of why I consider V5 to be terribly designed. Being a combat-focused vampire was already hard, and now you can drop to "zero blood" (= full hunger) too quickly. V20 was way more controllable, and also gave you greater power, so, more fun.

We did crib some of V5's ideas, like STA giving bonus HP (that's more of a nWoD thing, though), and Convictions, which basically allow you to do certain things without making a Humanity roll. This, in turn, means that Degradation is mostly due to unexpected events, and vampires who have valid reasons to kill don't become drooling maniacs in a few months. But overall nobody in our gaming group was impressed with V5 - neither the more "socially-oriented" players nor Vampions fans.

[Anonymouswizard]

I do think Requiem 2e had the right idea, with each physical discipline having passive benefits and some activated effects. Let me just get my book.

I won't post the mechanics, but suffice to say a character with a good melee skill and investment in Celerity and Vigor is already hard to beat, when they spend Vitae they're hitting even harder, acting first, and interrupting actions, and that's before we get to Blood Buffing. Somebody with Resilience always has more Health, but can also spend Vitae to just shrug off attacks as if they were nothing. But going full on combat monster risks you running dry, especially if you're using Celerity to it's fullest potential, so having those passive abilities means your character doesn't suddenly become worthless when drained dry.

Although out of interest, how rare are 'free powers' in the V5 Disciplines, ones that don't make you more hungry or less focused. One of the things that I love about Requiem 2e is that even when you're out of Vitae you can still call upon the more basic powers of your Disciplines.


I'm thinking I won't be picking up V5 after all, if only because I find Requiem's 5x5 arangement more interesting than Masquerade's 7+2+4+others. Although I have to admit a bit of distaste for Requiem 1e, I do however adore 2e and find that it only got better when it moved away from Masquerade.

[The Jack]

A good way to balance protean/burning blade/serpentis/fires of the inferno and so on is to allow vampires to soak non fire/sunlight/faith damage with their stamina,as it was in 1e, which makes celerity weaker (though not weak ebough) without potence/big guns. If you want to nerf celerity more (it is a blood hog) then half it's offensive/movement boost, or dont make it an exception for blood expenditure.

V5
Let's go through things that are worth taking:
2/1/0 discipline start+predator type. Predator type isn't actually a new thing and learning disciplines through hunting habbits is kinda what i was already running, but the extra details they add to character creation is good.
-The way you track sins is decent. Worth stealing for v20, though I'm curious as to how it applies to roads, because v5 is rather against roads.
That one picture of a werewolf. Some other art is really good, some is abysmal, but the werewolf is great, even though it didnt accessorize.

...and that's all.

[raygun goth]

Well, that was nice of them.

May still be not exactly enough, but still. Considering the people who were running the line, I honestly expected less.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well, that was nice of them.

May still be not exactly enough, but still. Considering the people who were running the line, I honestly expected less.

Interesting. Nice to see them reacting to something (apparently, don't own the book) out of line, didn't mean I trust them.

I think I'll still stick with CofD, because everything I've heard about V5's storyline just reminds me of it, but if the implications are true I might check in for the new edition of Mage (because I've felt that Mage needs an update not even M20 provided, and significantly more than Vampire or Werewolf), or I might just wait and see if they do a new edition of Demon (because for various reasons it's my favorite oWoD game).

Actually, the two things that would definitely get me to buy a World of Darkness book are a new edition of Demon (either tone down or play up the unreliable narrator bits), and post-eternal winter Changeling. I'd absolutely love to see what WW does with the idea that demons have been going around for ten years and the world hasn't ended. It would be a very different game just from demons having begun to organiser.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Intriguing. But are you saying that Potence and Fortitude no longer add dots to Strength and Stamina?

That is precisely what I am saying. It's lazy game design for there to only be passive effects. Even Dark Ages V20 which added both passive and active uses is not enough (in my opinion anyway). V5 makes the disciplines engaging and fun to use.

I run Dark Ages V20 and the Ravnos player with Fortitude 6 and Serpentis 3 can soak nearly any attack, but that is about all that he can do with Fortitude.

Edit: in DAV20 you can spend 1 BP to auto soak your Fortitude rating in damage. Cannot be used on Sunlight or Fire.