General WoD Discussion #5: Chronicles of Duty: Modern Darkness

[The Jack]

Vtm's physicals are lazy game design?
No, they're simple,Intuitive and natural; each level is the logical extension of the next, just like dominate, obfuscate or auspex. The rational next level of fortitude, a power which makes you tougher, is an aditional level of toughness. Now I'm more concerned about story, but a lot of players appreciate the elagance of simplicity in their powers, to which V:tM's powers hold strength

V5's powers don't care for story. Each new level is thematically similar to the last but is usually mechanically distict, not a rational extension of prior powers, which makes no sense for physical disciplines as now each level does a very specific thing and that is all. The powers aren't intuitive; It's gamey and far too lawyery for good and wholesome metaphysics, and an inelegant option for players who appreciate simplicity and not having to memorise twenty two new powers (IE most players who pick bloodlines with two physical in-clans regularly)

[fishyfishyfishy]

"...each level is the logical extension of the next, just like dominate, obfuscate or auspex"

Uh, no they are not like Dominate and the like. It's a linear progression of "you get another bonus point of str/dex/sta". If all Auspex did was give you a bonus to perception equal to your dots you would have a point. Instead you get heightened senses, aura perception, psychometric touch, telepathy, and astral projection. Each one is very unique and feels exactly like you said: a natural progression.


V5 made physicals logical extensions of the next. None of the other games have that.

Let's look at Fortitude (leaving out the combination powers):

Level 1 you can add fortitude to health track OR as bonus to resist mind control.
Level 2 you ignore your fortitude rating in superficial damage before halving it and taking it on your health track.
Level 3 you can now convert aggravated damage to superficial equal to your fortitude rating OR you can conceal your mind from supernatural powers.
Level 4 you can gift half your fortitude rounded down to someone who drinks your vitae.
Level 5 you can ignore the first source of physical damage (excluding fire and sunlight) each turn OR you can ignore wound penalties and get bonus physical attribute dots for each wound box you have.


It's a logical progression that makes sense and builds on itself. Now look at Fortitude in every other edition of VtM:

Bonus dot of Stamina for each dot in Fortitude. You may soak aggravated damage with Fortitude.


One of these things is boring, linear, and lazy game design. The other is thoughtful and engaging.

[fishyfishyfishy]

While we're at it, let's look at Celerity too:

Level 1 - Auto pass balance based checks OR no penalty to your defense against ranged attacks (including firearms) and the ability to take 2 dice worth of minor actions (like reloading) for free.

Level 2 - add Celerity to non- combat Dex based tests, and once per combat turn add Celerity to defense.

Level 3 - instantly move any distance 50 feet or less and still get to perform another action OR have the ability to run on water or up walls.

Level 4 - imbue your Celerity to others just like that Fortitude power

Level 5 - negate an opponent's opportunity to dodge or defend against an attack at difficulty 1 OR get narrative level control to avoid danger after the ST announces it.



Those powers have a direct correlation to each other and maintain usefulness at all levels. They fit perfectly within the "vampires have super speed and agility" lore and don't break combat like previous editions.

[The Jack]

Auspex isn't just perception, it's broadening your perceotion and opening your mind to information and each power is the next step in that direction. If you had all five auspex powers in hand, most people would put them in the order they're in the book. You can do this with every common discipline except presence.

You cant do the same with v5's physical disciplines, the simplest of disciplines. They don't behave like disciplines, they're more like werewolf's gifts.

[fishyfishyfishy]

If you had all five auspex powers in hand, most people would put them in the order they're in the book. You can do this with every common discipline except presence.

Care to offer any sort of proof for this argument? Because it looks pretty weak, nonsensical, and without evidence to me.

[Ignimortis]

I hate how the 4th dot of all physical Disciplines in V5 does basically nothing if you don't have ghouls/retainers. I hate how V5 actually made a few powers required (IIRC, there's a point in Obfuscate where you don't get anything for one dot if you picked an alternate power earlier on, and something similar in Protean, too).

I also dislike calling all active effects "thoughtful and engaging" while claiming passive effects to be boring, especially when the mechanics say that any and all powers take a Hunger roll to activate, basically leaving you with NO passive or easily activatable powers aside from those that are part of vampiric condition. It's like they don't want people using powers TOO MUCH. That's typical of WW, though - they have always tried to stop players from having badwrongfun with their game.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll be off, chucking heavy objects at people and leaping five stories high at no cost to myself except experience points and possible Masquerade breaches. Also kicking five asses at once and dodging bullets...also at very little cost to myself. Having 5 extra points in Dexterity, Stamina and Strength actually is engaging in VtM, unlike many other games - because that means that any physical action is made at a superhuman level if you're even remotely good at it (if you're a trained professional with 3 in the stat and 3 in the skill, with Celerity 5 that means you're already better than anyone who has ever lived, and doubly so with Potence - you are to mortals what a bulldozer is to a normal car).

Sure, you could pack in some more active powers. But removing the passive elements altogether just reeks of being unimaginative and restrictive. If I had to do V5's disciplines, I'd mostly do them the same way...except all physical disciplines would give 1 point of STR/DEX/STA at levels 1, 3 and 5. And there would be an alternate power at level 4, of course. Or even all levels. And half the powers wouldn't take blood to activate, because Blood Pool and Blood per Turn are much better mechanics than Hunger.

[The Jack]

Care to offer any sort of proof for this argument? Because it looks pretty weak, nonsensical, and without evidence to me.

Sorry i made some critical errors in writing that post. But yeah, if you understand the theme, auspex, dominate and obfuscate are all easy 1,2,3,4,5. Presence isn't good because it's aura of like, single target fear, single target love, summon and then overwhelm. 5 seems like a sequel to 1/2, 4 seems like a sequel to 3, 3 seems like a sequel to 1, 2 seems like it could be interchanged anywhere. 1 would probably be in the right place if it weren't for 2 being a wildcard.

V5 physical disciplines, as you've listed them, are much more like presence than dominate, auspex and obfuscate. They're bizzarly specific and there's no especial reason why a lot of them should be in the order they're in.

Vtm though; if you don't think the thing after +2 strengh should be +3... well, I cant say anything, but it's amazing what +anything strength means: you can climb better, jump higher, break things you couldnt otherwise break. +Strength or speed or Damage reduction is just elegant, because there's so much a creative player can extrapolate from that.
Also, the differences between fortitude 1-5 are life and death when it comes to fire, faith and sunlight. Imagine you're taking difficulty 6 sunlight at two levels a turn, and assuming average rolls where 1's dont count( imo, They never should for damage/soak, 10s neither)
0 fort: Final death in three turns.
1 fort: Fd in five turns
2 fort: fd in seven turns
3 fort: fd in eleven turns
4 fort: You're going to last minutes.
5 fort: Hours, you're more at risk that the sun and fire might intensify than any imminent danger.

And the differences are way bigger with less damage or easier soak. Swim through boiling water or acid, Impress your mates by putting your eye over a candle...
(Boiling water/mundane acids are weak for vampires anyway, but i imagine they're painful...)

While we're here i really, really hate silence being an obfuscate power in dav20. Obfuscate is a mind trick, so it shouldn't dampen noise.

A cool idea for obfuscate 1; You can give yourself the arcane background equal to your obfuscate when you use it. As a balancer, maybe your obfuscate needs to beat their willpower for the full effect. Works absolute wonder for the masquerade.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I hate how the 4th dot of all physical Disciplines in V5 does basically nothing if you don't have ghouls/retainers. I hate how V5 actually made a few powers required (IIRC, there's a point in Obfuscate where you don't get anything for one dot if you picked an alternate power earlier on, and something similar in Protean, too).

In V5 you can select a previous level in place of the one available at that level. In those circumstances you listed you would still get to select a power. At no point do you not gain a power buying the dot. If you don't want the 4th dot power, pick the other level 3 power. They're usually both good.

...especially when the mechanics say that any and all powers take a Hunger roll to activate

Not a single level one power costs anything to activate. This is flat out incorrect.

I'll be off, chucking heavy objects at people and leaping five stories high at no cost to myself except experience points and possible Masquerade breaches. Also kicking five asses at once and dodging bullets...also at very little cost to myself.

You'll do no such thing if you are playing by the rules.

"Each success on a jump roll launches your character two feet/50 cm vertically"

A jump roll is just Strength + Potence at difficulty 3. You are not clearing 5 stories with that. Meanwhile in V5 it's 3 meters times your potence level for vertical distance with no roll needed and at no cost. You're clearing more distance with V5 (although still not 5 stories).

"Multiple Opponents: A character who battles multiple opponents in close combat suffers attack and defense difficulties of +1, cumulative, for each opponent after the first (to a maximum of +4)."

Yes do try fighting 5 people at once, but that's at +4 difficulty to everything.

Oh and dodging bullets? You need cover or you must drop prone to do so. Not a good idea to drop prone while fighting 5 people at once.

• Dodge: A Dexterity + Athletics maneuver use-ful for avoiding attacks of all types. Your character bobs and weaves to avoid Melee or Brawl attacks (if there’s no room to maneuver, she must block or parry instead). In gunfights, your character moves at least one yard/meter and ends up behind cover (if there’s no room to maneuver or no cover available, she can drop to the ground). If your character remains under cover or prone, cover rules apply against further Firearms at-tacks (see “Cover,” p. 278).

Honestly there are valid criticisms for the system but it's like you people haven't even read the rules of either game before you start complaining.

[fishyfishyfishy]

While we're here i really, really hate silence being an obfuscate power in dav20. Obfuscate is a mind trick, so it shouldn't dampen noise.

This is a valid complaint, but is easily explainable if you reframe the way you think about the ability itself. Your powers are causing their minds to ignore the sensory information their ears are providing. Just like how the second dot has them ignore what is obvious to the eyes.

V5 physical disciplines, as you've listed them, are much more like presence than dominate, auspex and obfuscate. They're bizzarly specific and there's no especial reason why a lot of them should be in the order they're in.

This. This is a reasonable argument. It's largely based on personal preference and opinion, which is valid, but unlike some of the other points made in this thread it is not based on incorrect information.

Imagine you're taking difficulty 6 sunlight at two levels a turn, and assuming average rolls...

Soak rolls for fire, sunlight, and acid are all examples of times when the difficulty to soak is variable based on concentration/heat and exposure.

[The Jack]

First, you're being a pedant.

Second, if you're going back in the powers list for earlier powers to fill the space of the next power... thats some BS gamey lawyer crap going on, it's not good for story and setting. Magic should have a logic to it that isnt just game design.

2 Obfuscate is all the senses, it's just that sound is the most common thing to break it, as it's more disruptive, bounces around, and is either used as a message (breaking the principles of obfuscate) or is from something else (broken glass)and so on. Otherwise Nosferatu would be useless with the discipline, as they mostly stink.

[Ignimortis]

In V5 you can select a previous level in place of the one available at that level. In those circumstances you listed you would still get to select a power. At no point do you not gain a power buying the dot. If you don't want the 4th dot power, pick the other level 3 power. They're usually both good.



Not a single level one power costs anything to activate. This is flat out incorrect.



You'll do no such thing if you are playing by the rules.


A jump roll is just Strength + Potence at difficulty 3. You are not clearing 5 stories with that. Meanwhile in V5 it's 3 meters times your potence level for vertical distance with no roll needed and at no cost. You're clearing more distance with V5 (although still not 5 stories).

Yes do try fighting 5 people at once, but that's at +4 difficulty to everything.

Oh and dodging bullets? You need cover or you must drop prone to do so. Not a good idea to drop prone while fighting 5 people at once.

Honestly there are valid criticisms for the system but it's like you people haven't even read the rules of either game before you start complaining.

A jump roll is STR+Potence+Athletics if you get a run-up. 15 dice get you 6 meters on average, and a combo discipline for Potence+Celerity multiplies that by the lower rating, so at the moment it's about 11 dice for jumping which are multiplied by 3 in the end. I usually get 7 or 8 successes, that makes it 4 meters or so, x3 = 12 meters. That's about enough for 5 stories.

I might've erred with Celerity, since we removed the broken extra actions and instead let Celerity do the things it let you do before without jumping through hoops (dodging bullets and fighting many people at once) - because before that I mostly used Celerity's extra actions to either destroy a single opponent completely or say "and then I retreat into cover and screw this ranged guy out of a turn" or "and then I hit them all from different sides because I can move like 20 meters per turn without losing dice (20+3 per Dexterity for running, half of that is available before losing dice)". It worked about the same before the change, only it looked dumber. And no, I didn't really run out of blood against multiple opponents, because I could use an extra action to eat a guy I just killed, usually.

[fishyfishyfishy]

A jump roll is STR+Potence+Athletics if you get a run-up.

No no, we're not talking running starts and combo powers. Compare apples to apples here. You get Strength and Potence, that's it. Or have you lost sight of your original argument?

The V5 version doesn't need a running start to clear that distance.

And no, I didn't really run out of blood against multiple opponents, because I could use an extra action to eat a guy I just killed, usually.

Again, not if you are playing by the rules. You can take 3 points of blood per turn. V20 (the rule set you must be using if you're getting the passive bonus dice to dex benefit) costs 1 BP per extra action taken with Celerity. There's a net loss of vitae here.

It seems to me you played fast and loose with the rules - which is totally fine as a play style - but not when critiquing rules of a new edition and comparing them to older rules.

Second, if you're going back in the powers list for earlier powers to fill the space of the next power... thats some BS gamey lawyer crap going on, it's not good for story and setting.

It's intentional game design. You can pick up highly specialized powers or you can get another power that you didn't get before. Protean is a great example. Level 3 let's you get an animal shape or earth meld. Level 4 let's you get a second animal shape. If you wanted earth meld instead take it!

Whether this is good or not is up to personal preference, and a valid critique of the game design if you don't like it.

[Ignimortis]

No no, we're not talking running starts and combo powers. Compare apples to apples here. You get Strength and Potence, that's it. Or have you lost sight of your original argument?

The V5 version doesn't need a running start to clear that distance.



Again, not if you are playing by the rules. You can take 3 points of blood per turn. V20 (the rule set you must be using if you're getting the passive bonus dice to dex benefit) costs 1 BP per extra action taken with Celerity. There's a net loss of vitae here.

It seems to me you played fast and loose with the rules - which is totally fine as a play style - but not when critiquing rules of a new edition and comparing them to older rules.

Not sure where I mentioned that I don't get a running start. I never specified how my character would jump.

Again, not if you are playing by the rules. You can take 3 points of blood per turn. V20 (the rule set you must be using if you're getting the passive bonus dice to dex benefit) costs 1 BP per extra action taken with Celerity. There's a net loss of vitae here.

It seems to me you played fast and loose with the rules - which is totally fine as a play style - but not when critiquing rules of a new edition and comparing them to older rules.

Nah. It's just that there weren't enough enemies to completely empty out my blood pool, and as long as I spent less than 3 blood per person, I would get them back in the end - fresh corpses still have 3BP in them. I mostly exhausted my blood supplies while fighting single tough enemies, multiple weak ones were just giving me more than it took to kill them.

I assure you, we did try to follow all the rules, but in the end the ST just got tired of my shenanigans and homebrewed an entirely new Celerity which let me do what I did to normal mortals (mostly stroll through them unless they had high-powered firearms and aimed for the head all the time), dodge bullets without trying to come up with stuff like cover and using corpses as cover and so on, and wouldn't result in me one-turn shredding through any single target who didn't have Fortitude at least two dots higher than my Potence once I got to 3 Potence and 3+ Celerity.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Not sure where I mentioned that I don't get a running start. I never specified how my character would jump.

You know what, you're right. That was unfair on my behalf. There's no reason why you can't have a running start. It just means that the V5 version is even more superior to the older versions since it does not have this limitation in order to get a good distance.

Combination powers are an entirely different ball game that I won't get into. Before V5 they were optional and not the norm at all.

[The Jack]

No no, we're not talking running starts and combo powers. Compare apples to apples here. You get Strength and Potence, that's it. Or have you lost sight of your original argument?

The V5 version doesn't need a running start to clear that distance.

Why not, why doesn't an easily acquired combo discipline count, why are your restrictions agains things permited in the rules relevant? At best, you're playing devils advocate with these bad arguments. At worst, you're a troll that acts as my enabler for my distaste for the almost entirely rash and clueless changes of v5.

[fishyfishyfishy]

The argument that Potence is better as bonus Strength dots rather than powers falls completely apart when you start applying optional powers to it as the foundation for your argument that it is better. Do you not see how this detracts from the point you both were attempting to make? I'm not playing devil's advocate, this just isn't a logical argument.

[Ignimortis]

The argument that Potence is better as bonus Strength dots rather than powers falls completely apart when you start applying optional powers to it as the foundation for your argument that it is better. Do you not see how this detracts from the point you both were attempting to make? I'm not playing devil's advocate, this just isn't a logical argument.

Oh, so that's what we're talking about? Okay then! I'm willing to admit that V5's Potence has a greater cap and is, in this sense, "better". It just doesn't feel as right to me as just being supernaturally strong all the time without invoking it.

What I was arguing is that I can achieve the same things in V20, even if I do have to jump through a hoop or two, and in the end it's all free and is active all the time (and even in V20 RAW I'd have half my powers essentially always on except for Celerity actions), and the only thing I need to actually activate in my current game is "I dodge everything thrown my way for Celerity dice" or "my Potence dice don't need to be rolled anymore". All the other aspects are...just there. Sure, they could be improved by giving physical disciplines a few more powers (I liked the "run on walls" thing in particular). But it's not exactly necessary.

[The Jack]

Vtm physicals improve like a single vehicle, or a computer's hardware or for the most literal analogy, an athlete. You improve strength, speed, reliability and endurance Each level improves these essential aspects, and together they make for a superior entity for all purposes.

V5's physical disciplines are like if you gave your car accessories, or a card game, or like putting tactical gear on a firearm, or whatever looks and sounds exciting but lacks the wholesom appeal of core improvement. You're like the rich kid that buys a lot of rediculous expensive crap to show of how rich he is, the vulgar dude that the old money shun because they prefer modesty and nuance.
Vtm's disciplines were written by ventrue, whilst v5 was written by brujah, and not the scholarly kind.
Ironically, the most brujah loving player at my table is one of those fighter-champion types, he craves simplicity, and v5 has really scrambled that simplicity.

[Anonymouswizard]

I also dislike calling all active effects "thoughtful and engaging" while claiming passive effects to be boring, especially when the mechanics say that any and all powers take a Hunger roll to activate, basically leaving you with NO passive or easily activatable powers aside from those that are part of vampiric condition. It's like they don't want people using powers TOO MUCH. That's typical of WW, though - they have always tried to stop players from having badwrongfun with their game.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll be off, chucking heavy objects at people and leaping five stories high at no cost to myself except experience points and possible Masquerade breaches. Also kicking five asses at once and dodging bullets...also at very little cost to myself. Having 5 extra points in Dexterity, Stamina and Strength actually is engaging in VtM, unlike many other games - because that means that any physical action is made at a superhuman level if you're even remotely good at it (if you're a trained professional with 3 in the stat and 3 in the skill, with Celerity 5 that means you're already better than anyone who has ever lived, and doubly so with Potence - you are to mortals what a bulldozer is to a normal car).

This, all this. Requiem 1e also made the mistake of having physical disciplines activated effects (while still being linear), while 2e returned to the passive model and added a bunch of active effects (because you know what? Using Celerity to flash step is awesome even if I don't get extra actions or Dex from it).

Why are the passive benefits so much more engaging? Because they open up options a lot better. A high Fortitude/Resilience vampire can drop out a fifth story window and be pretty certain they'll land with only some bruises. With high Potence/Vigor you can throw cars, punch through walls, and hoist the entire coterie. With high Celerity they'll make sure that their insult to the Prince is written in the prettiest handwriting. And because they don't cost a thing these options are always there.


Now that I've learnt more about V5, I think I'm going to get V20 instead. Not only do these physical disciplines sound stupid, I learnt that V5 uses generation-linked Blood Potency. If I wanted Blood Potency I'd just use Requiem, I have it! I want Masquerade for Masquerade, don't try to turn it into Requiem!

[The Jack]

I only read the book once and my memories are doublesslu influenced bu my playtest, but active disciplines make elders a joke.
lets pretend you wanted to assassinate an elder.
In V:tM
Her Auspex would trigger flashes of warning before you could fire your shot or trigger your trap, if her hieghtened senses didnt pick up the problems on their own.
Her fortitude, if she has it would be ready for the impact after an imperfect dodge, and she could've spent her turn n blood buffing stamina in preperation.
Either all the animals or all the humans in the area have their dominate/animalism commands trigger and they rise against the assassin, her presence or obfuscate activate, or she speeds from the scene.

In v5, that elder is sniped or bombed or otherwise ganked, then probably devoured, as she has to activate basically everything when she only has a turn.

[Milo v3]

In v5, that elder is sniped or bombed or otherwise ganked, then probably devoured, as she has to activate basically everything when she only has a turn.

Auspex warnings of danger is still a free passive power in v5 though, you can get passive fortitude powers, etc. So I think you're overblowing the issue. Passive discipline powers are still in the game.

[The Jack]

It's there, but the combination of factors is very against the elder.

Then again, guns are at most +3 (and the devs know nothing about them) so maybe a truckbomb isnt a serious threat.

[Milo v3]

It's there, but the combination of factors is very against the elder.

Except everything you mentioned is in V5 as far as I'm aware. So I really don't understand how?

Then again, guns are at most +3 (and the devs know nothing about them) so maybe a truckbomb isnt a serious threat.

Why does it matter whether the devs are gun aficionados? It's a storytelling game, not a military sim.

[Ignimortis]

Except everything you mentioned is in V5 as far as I'm aware. So I really don't understand how?

Fortitude doesn't give anything aside from health levels in V5 for free, and sometimes not even that, if you picked the alternate power. All other things require activation and Rouse checks. Therefore, the only way you can prevent an assassination by sniper rifle as an Elder is to get Celerity 5 or hope that your attacker doesn't shoot well enough, because you're not getting another fistful of soak dice and 6+ Fort passive powers.

[Milo v3]

Fortitude doesn't give anything aside from health levels in V5 for free, and sometimes not even that, if you picked the alternate power. All other things require activation and Rouse checks. Therefore, the only way you can prevent an assassination by sniper rifle as an Elder is to get Celerity 5 or hope that your attacker doesn't shoot well enough, because you're not getting another fistful of soak dice and 6+ Fort passive powers.

Activation and Rouse checks don't take actions or anything and can be used immediately when the enemy attacks (the rules say you cannot use that to interrupt their action but that you can use them to immediately respond to the enemies action). You can use toughness/flesh of marble immediately once you get your free auspex premonition, both of which will last the entire duration of the threat.

[Ignimortis]

Activation and Rouse checks don't take actions or anything and can be used immediately when the enemy attacks (the rules say you cannot use that to interrupt their action but that you can use them to immediately respond to the enemies action). You can use toughness/flesh of marble immediately once you get your free auspex premonition, both of which will last the entire duration of the threat.

In my ST's copy of the book (he was the only one in my gaming group who bothered to get it and has now lent it to me) it says that you can only use one power per turn. So there are a lot of assumptions there - that the target has Auspex 2, that it gets a premonition soon enough to prepare, and even then you had to use at least one, if not three Rouse checks to get the protection you need. Meanwhile, V20 Fortitude is very flawed, but it does its' job without requiring Auspex or blood expenditure. It just protects you - at all times, even when you're sleeping or not aware of the danger.

If V20 Fort did give bonus Stamina like other physical disciplines (and bonus HP from that stamina, like Requiem, up to a total of 15 at 5 Sta+5 Fort, with a base calc of 5+Stamina), then it'd be pretty much perfect. Oh, add protection you against "normal" aggravated damage (claws/bites/magic stuff that's not fire/sun/holy, because there are tons of that stuff in the game and it's just dumb to die to every source of it) by letting you soak it with Stamina+Fortitude at Fort 3, I guess. There. The perfect defensive physical discipline.

[The Jack]

First, im ticked off at how disengenuous you've been; more health isnt quite the same effect as not taking damage. In some situations, you could argue more health is stronger, but in far more, including a one round gank, negating punishment is better than being able to accept more punishment. In general living, keeping blood costs down in healing and keeping the masquerade, old fortitude is better.

Second... you can make a rouse check to activate the defensive power between the moment of the harm touching your skin and the moment it penetrates?
Thats some really gamey **** there. If we can rouse blood at a speed faster than we can comprehend, why was generational expenditure ever a thing?

[Milo v3]

In my ST's copy of the book (he was the only one in my gaming group who bothered to get it and has now lent it to me) it says that you can only use one power per turn.

You can only activate one power per turn, yes. I don't understand the reason why this is being stated.

So there are a lot of assumptions there - that the target has Auspex 2, that it gets a premonition soon enough to prepare, and even then you had to use at least one, if not three Rouse checks to get the protection you need. Meanwhile, V20 Fortitude is very flawed, but it does its' job without requiring Auspex or blood expenditure. It just protects you - at all times, even when you're sleeping or not aware of the danger.

To be clear, I was mentioning auspex premonition because it was in The Jack's comparison example.

First, im ticked off at how disengenuous you've been; more health isnt quite the same effect as not taking damage. In some situations, you could argue more health is stronger, but in far more, including a one round gank, negating punishment is better than being able to accept more punishment. In general living, keeping blood costs down in healing and keeping the masquerade, old fortitude is better.

I'm not sure how I'm being disingenuous, I'm merely refuting the example scenario you gave + saying that the game does have passive powers. I don't think anyone said that health is the same as not taking damage.

Second... you can make a rouse check to activate the defensive power between the moment of the harm touching your skin and the moment it penetrates?
Thats some really gamey **** there. If we can rouse blood at a speed faster than we can comprehend, why was generational expenditure ever a thing?

You would need to know the attack is coming as far as I'm aware, rather than as soon as it hits your skin.

[The Jack]

So elders are weak and vulnerable to suprise. The auspex warning is active, but then they must chose what to rouse: Fortitude's soak or celerity or blood buff or obfuscate, whilst in V:TM their auspex, fortitude soak and probably obfuscate are already on, and they can quite easily use celerity to make for distance or blood buff to be stronger for whatever's coming, they are also capable of using other disciplines for defence: potence for a leap to safety or to rip out makeshift cover, obtenebration to hide in, some kind of shapechange... all within one turn. A v5 vampire must instead activate the one ability they plan to rely on and hope for the best.

[Jeivar]

So, in VtM, just what are the rules for vampires who aren't specifically of a sorcerous clan learning Thaumaturgy? I know that blood magic isn't exclusive to Tremere (or Tzimisce or Lasombra) and that there is some history of other vampires picking up a bit of magic. Would you let a starting character use freebie points to buy a dot in, say, Weather Control, at out-of-clan cost?