General WoD Discussion #5: Chronicles of Duty: Modern Darkness

[RifleAvenger]

oWoD appeals to me more than CoD because, although the metaplot is agonizing bull****, the narrative provides a relevant critique of society. Sects, clans, tribes, traditions all have something to say about some kinds of people. It's a satire, it grabs problems and amplifies them to crazy supernatural proportions, and we can learn from that.

CoD is a postmodern mess. You can have a bit of X, a bit of Y, and they'll be happy to share space and be diplomatic. Because you can have a bit of everything, you've really got nothing. There's nothing to say. oWoD (before v5) is exclusive, not inclusive; You're either with the program or you're out. Conform or die; welcome to the roller-coaster, All in.

From a narrative perspective, oWoD is stronger because it demands extremes. You can't be a weak Get or an incompetent shadow lord, you can't be a ventrue with less than 5 dots of etiquette and no sense of snobbery hidden behind it, you have to be loyal to the tremere or they'll hunt you down, you have to have a massive interest in tech to be a virtual adept... The game encourages you to get into a mindset that isn't your own, and that's great.

CoD is more lenient. The vampire sects aren't iron fisted international conspiracies you need to abide by; if you don't like Invictus you can go support someone else, they're not going to force you to be Invictus. That's a lot easier, and because it's a lot easier it's a lot less powerful. (insert every argument about why I hate V5 here)


I think it's easier from a video game perspective too. "As a blood sucker, you're a fascist now" isn't just more powerful than 'you're a blood sucker, let's talk about your options', it's a lot easier. With bloodlines you've got the rulers, the radicals, outsiders and the enemy. You can make a big deal out of the differences between rulers and radicals, fully explore those two options. If you had a game with a multiparty system of eight different sects or whatever you could do ok but unless you've got eight times the budget it's going to be very hard to give those systems the equal weight they need to be of equal interest.

You could of course focus on a very personal story with CoD for a good narrative, but really the world isn't as interesting.

There are still relevant social themes in CoD.

Mage the Awakening is about privilege and systemic injustice.

Werewolf the Forsaken is about tribalism and found family, and the Pure are a great analogy for hate groups, how they operate, and how they recruit/indoctrinate.

Vampire the Requiem is a game about finding a reason to go on, when you're not sure you even deserve to be alive. And it can also still be about an elite ruling class being a parasite on the rest of society, because pretty much every vampire story ever where the vampires are in a position of power or hierarchy hits those notes.

Changeling the Lost is about surviving and dealing with the aftermath of abuse.

Promethean is the story about being painted as inhuman and odious by society for reasons outside your control, but finding a reason to believe in yourself or humanity anyways, that Beast mistakenly thinks it is.

Hunter the Vigil is a game about resistance and activism, with a side helping of the risk of going too far into extremism and terrorism.

I also don't know why you think the CoD world isn't as punishing of nonconformity. Apostate Mages and Ghost Wolves do not live happy lives unbothered by the Orders and Tribes. Complain too much about how Pentacle (even the Free Council) disregards the rights of Sleepers, and people are going to think you're a naive fool at best, a threat to the Veil in the middle, and a Banisher at worst.

[Milo v3]

oWoD appeals to me more than CoD because, although the metaplot is agonizing bull****, the narrative provides a relevant critique of society. Sects, clans, tribes, traditions all have something to say about some kinds of people. It's a satire, it grabs problems and amplifies them to crazy supernatural proportions, and we can learn from that.

CoD is a postmodern mess. You can have a bit of X, a bit of Y, and they'll be happy to share space and be diplomatic. Because you can have a bit of everything, you've really got nothing. There's nothing to say. oWoD (before v5) is exclusive, not inclusive; You're either with the program or you're out. Conform or die; welcome to the roller-coaster, All in.

Nope. CofD does different narratives and themes that examine society. That doesn't mean they have nothing to say, it just means it has things to say that aren't just repeating "EVERYONE MUST HAVE X PERSONALITY IN Y GROUP OR YOU DIE" every five minutes.

Vampire the Requiem is a game is unhealthy power dynamics, and trying to find meaning in a world that is growing further and further away from you. Werewolf is a game about inherited duty and trying to balance your natural drives in a society when those drives alienate you from humanity and force you to see the world through Hunts. Mage is a game about trying to find meaning in an innately malevolent universe and examining how powerful people end up committing acts of great horror through their hubris even when they're trying to fight against that malevolence. Promethean is a depressing game about examining what it truly means to be human through the eyes of an eternal outsider who walks the world isolated from everyone else. Changeling is a game about trying to find beauty and peace in a world that has permanently scarred and broken you. Hunter the Vigil is a game about how people react when they are most desperate and that humans can be just as horrific as the monsters when they think they're justified in their actions. Geist is a game about giving a voice to those who are ignored by society and fighting against the oppressive systems that cause people to be dragged down into despair.

You could of course focus on a very personal story with CoD for a good narrative, but really the world isn't as interesting.

Many people find CofD settings more interesting than WoD settings. WoD settings sound super dull to me compared to CofD.

[The Jack]

But

All the WoD games are about privileged and systemic injustice
In WTA you are indoctrinated into a hate group, and you're justified. You're an extremist, a terrorist, you're literally powered by rage.
VTM is primarily about being a parasite with strong themes of paranoia, Authoritarianism, media control, ideological war, wealth divide, ladder climbing.
Changeling is a battle of apathy, the loss of innocence, the expense of the fantastic for order. Wraith is about moving on.
Mage is about imposing your ideas over others.


Sure, CoD has relevant themes, but are they as relevant for the majority of people? A lot of what you're talking about doesn't apply to me or most people I know. Is it as powerful? When you write "And it can also still be about an elite ruling class being a parasite on the rest of society" about requim, the answer seems to be 'no'. In VTM, it's a resounding "The Ruling class are an absolutely terrible parasite and they're actively making your life worse" and every aspect of the game is set up to reflect that very argument.

CoD is niche themes or weak themes. I'm not saying I can't relate, but it doesn't scream to me that there's something that can be done. I am neither a victim of nor responsible for a lot of things. I'm pragmatic and believe that unless the severity is extreme problems that affect more should come before problems that affect less. CoD covers vulnerable groups but doesn't really touch on the problems of the majority. Everything in WoD is something to rail against. WoD is a game that says **** the conformists, the nonconformists, the rich, the poor, those middle lot, yourself, your friends, your enemies, your family, your boss , your underling, the lefties, the righties, those undecided ambidextrous monsters, the disabled, the able, the people who care and the people who don't, and of course the horse you rode in on. And that's beautiful. Everything is worse and you're apart of it; it's your fault and that's inspiring.

From a sales point of view, thematically tackling Majority problems (you don't get enough money, the system's corrupt, you believe a lot of lies, the planet is dying) are much bigger draws than the various problems that have only affected a variable percentage of people who often don't agree on how the matter should be dealt with.

Obviously, I don't mean to say that CoD's problems aren't without merit, please don't go with that line of thought. You can argue that they resonate more with you because they're tailored for your problems. You could argue that the themes are fresher and less tried. But assuming equal quality I'd go with a tackling of more universal issues. Maybe that's because I'm selfish and my interests align with some kind of meta-majority more often than not, but it's a stance I'll keep.

When it comes to satire, the more things you cover the better. Attack everything and leave nothing unchecked. You can cover both minority and majority issues at the same time. WoD is mostly good satire. CoD seems more soft allegory.

[RifleAvenger]

But

All the WoD games are about privilege and systemic injustice
Mage the Awakening is especially good at it, perhaps by being less concerned with other themes than other gamelines. DaveB, who worked on Mage 2e, specifically kept it in mind when writing the edition. There's a good post on RPG.net about the matter that I can x-copy over here.

In WTA you are indoctrinated into a hate group, and you're justified. You're an extremist, a terrorist, you're literally powered by rage.
Apocalypse's message is actually a mess imo. It creates some captain planet villains, then sets you against them in a manner that rarely if ever actually accomplishes the goals of the Garou. It kludges together environmentalism, extremism, native rights, and issues of social dissatisfaction/rage in a manner that dilutes the impact of any one of them (especially since it conflates several mostly non-violent movements with extreme violence).

VTM is primarily about being a parasite with strong themes of paranoia, Authoritarianism, media control, ideological war, wealth divide, ladder climbing.
And so are nearly all VtR games? CoD just leaves open the possibility for something else, that doesn't mean its default isn't authoritarian oligarch vampires.

Changeling is a battle of apathy, the loss of innocence, the expense of the fantastic for order.
CtL is about how wounds leave scars. Everyone has experienced some hurt or pain in their life that has helped shape them; just because it might be petty in comparison to someone else's trauma doesn't mean it isn't valid.

Wraith is about moving on.
Geist is about making the most of the time you have left.

Mage is about imposing your ideas over others.
Awakening, too, is about the ramifications of egoism (hubris) and deciding for other people what's best for them (and that's if you're the GOOD guys).


Sure, CoD has relevant themes, but are they as relevant for the majority of people? A lot of what you're talking about doesn't apply to me or most people I know.
Being put in the shoes of disadvantaged groups can teach A LOT about power structures, privilege, etc. Also, I fundamentally disagree the themes of CoD are as niche as you claim, as seen above.

Is it as powerful? When you write "And it can also still be about an elite ruling class being a parasite on the rest of society" about requim, the answer seems to be 'no'. In VTM, it's a resounding "The Ruling class are an absolutely terrible parasite and they're actively making your life worse" and every aspect of the game is set up to reflect that very argument.
Ok, fine. It IS about the parasitism of the elite ruling class unless some far-right storyteller retools the setting so that all the vampires come from the lower class or minorities. Which VtR clearly doesn't do as presented; I was referring to vampire fiction as whole.

CoD is niche themes or weak themes. I'm not saying I can't relate, but it doesn't scream to me that there's something that can be done. I am neither a victim of nor responsible for a lot of things. I'm pragmatic and believe that unless the severity is extreme problems that affect more should come before problems that affect less. CoD covers vulnerable groups but doesn't really touch on the problems of the majority.
The fate of vulnerable groups isn't somehow disconnected from "the majority." Hierarchies and systems of injustice are nested. Seeing just how badly the system screws the people on the bottom rungs can reveal just how much of a boot is planted on your own back, or reveal how you might be helping tread human lives underfoot.

Everything in WoD is something to rail against. WoD is a game that says **** the conformists, the nonconformists, the rich, the poor, those middle lot, yourself, your friends, your enemies, your family, your boss , your underling, the lefties, the righties, those undecided ambidextrous monsters, the disabled, the able, the people who care and the people who don't, and of course the horse you rode in on. And that's beautiful. Everything is worse and you're apart of it; it's your fault and that's inspiring.
To me it seems like a pointless exercise in fatalism and grimdark. Pointing out being complicit in systemic injustices, and not offering solutions, does nothing to change the situation. I'm fine with dark settings, many times they're not as far from our world as people might want to think, but it's the light at the end of the tunnel and struggle to get there that's most important.

One of the best parts about CoD in my opinion is that every splat has factions trying to make things better in reasonable ways, and success is actually a possibility, but they stumble on all too human flaws. Among all the oWoD lines, only Ascension really does that (which might be why Judgement has the potential for an unambiguously good ending).

From a sales point of view, thematically tackling Majority problems (you don't get enough money, the system's corrupt, you believe a lot of lies, the planet is dying) are much bigger draws than the various problems that have only affected a variable percentage of people who often don't agree on how the matter should be dealt with.

Obviously, I don't mean to say that CoD's problems aren't without merit, please don't go with that line of thought. You can argue that they resonate more with you because they're tailored for your problems. You could argue that the themes are fresher and less tried. But assuming equal quality I'd go with a tackling of more universal issues. Maybe that's because I'm selfish and my interests align with some kind of meta-majority more often than not, but it's a stance I'll keep.

I'm more of the opinion that the issues of discriminated against groups generally reflect the issues faced by everyone who isn't within the 1%. CoD themes are more universal than you're giving them credit for. I mean, seriously, Promethean is about what it is to be human. Isn't that a foundational goal of storytelling in general?

[Milo v3]

When it comes to satire, the more things you cover the better. Attack everything and leave nothing unchecked. You can cover both minority and majority issues at the same time. WoD is mostly good satire. CoD seems more soft allegory.

I guess that's a big part of it. CofD isn't a satire, and has never tried to be a satire. It is a way to examine philosophies and aspects of human culture through the lens of supernatural-personification of societal issues, but it isn't satire and no one in CofD fanbase wants it to be. Vampire the Requiem still represents the rich 1% elite controlling things, that's "Part" of the themes of it being representative of unhealthy power dynamics, it's just that it isn't the only way that theme is presented. It also presents in the characters personal life trying to hold onto their connections but not too tight or they'll end up corrupted and twisted, in how your mind is bonded to that of your sire and siblings meaning their moods twist your own, in how Ghouls can be you trying to have a normal person to talk and relate to but that the relationship is innately imbalanced because you're actually the one holding all the power.

Requiem is the 1% elites ruling from the shadows, it is the cult leaders that make you love them even as they break down your will, the gang member who gets what he wants whenever he wants because you don't want you or you loved ones to end up in the hospital, the blackmailers who hold your secrets in their hands, and the abusers in relationships where the victim just can't bring themselves to leave because you've ingrained how essential you are to their lives.

[The Jack]

But what is it you can do about 'what it is to be human'?

It seems like CoD is the game equivalent of Oscar bait whilst WoD is more of a broad high concept


Now, On the subject of satire, or why I think It's great

Most people can laugh at themselves so long as it rings true. Most Brits will cop to drinking far too much tea, because a lot of Brits do hold a ridiculous reverence for the stuff, so a joke about tea will often work. The moment you make fun of bad teeth, they just think you're stupid.
With that in mind, you can satirize everything that's true at the expense of nothing else. In fact, the wider the array of people you attack, the more you seem fair and the more you seem 'with' people.
A lot of people think South Park is on their side because they think it attacks people they're against more than people they're with, when really they're getting a case of confirmation bias: they (hopefully) agree with attacks against them as fair fun and see attacks against their opponents as the big concerns... But even when you agree with the stuff that targets people of the group you're in, that self awareness can still prompt course correction.

So In VTM, your real world views on what's the insidious 'Elite' can inform you when it comes to Toreador, Ventrue, Giovanni and lasombra; but you're still going to learn what others don't like about the other caricatures and maybe that'll change your opinion. When you explore the Black Furies, You've got every shade of Feminism to discuss. So long as it's all -show don't tell- and everything rings true you can do no wrong.

When you start telling rather than showing, or get very specific in what you're looking at, you loose that inescapable quality. When someone's attacking X, and you are X, and there's no attacking of Y, you shut out. When someone's attacking X, and you're the untouched A or B and X doesn't really effect you, it's harder to stay in.
And of course if you're X and someone gives you a lecture on why X is bad and Y is good you're guaranteed to be outa there (WoD is certainly not perfect in this regard, insert all my hate for v5 and my v20 criticism here.)

WoD always has satirical hooks for you, multiple hooks, it'll shoot everything at you and see what sticks, and each hook'll increase your susceptibility for more hooks. CoD is more of an offering of hooks, you can pick the ones that appeal, but it's ultimately more of a take it or leave it scenario.

On the otherhand I think WoD is a lot more to handle. There's too many things to improperly satirize but you've also got overwhelming oppression to deal with. I think the sociology of WoD is more apt than CoD, but the lack of freedom and the massive amounts of context needed to get it is a huge hurdle. Your first couple of WoD characters will likely suck, it's easier to be new with CoD.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

What it comes down to, is that WoD fans find CofD vague and insubstantial because the themes have to be teased out, while CofD fans find WoD as subtle as a brick in the fact and kinda one-note. Both have strong themes. WoD hits you with them, CofD explores them with you or guides you through them. WoD is punk ("rage against the system"), CofD is goth and horror ("what is meaningful in an apathetic world"). Both approaches are valid, and that's why the conversation gets so confusing. Some people prefer a single strong theme that is obvious, easy to run with, that they can take and run with. Some people prefer subtler themes that they tease out.

"What is it to be human" isn't a PLOT like "rage against the system" is. But it drives and flavours the plot. So the same basic story of, say, a rebellion against authority in the two games will play out differently. In WoD, the plot IS the Anarch revolt against the Cam, and the theme is "uprising against authority". In CofD, the plot may involve a Carthian revolt against the Invictus, but the themes may be "why does politics drive us to violence", or perhaps once the Carthians win the real heart of the game is the inter-rebel conflict, and the theme is closer to "You're only united against a common enemy," or "the young rebel grows up to be an old authoritarian".

Again, one isn't worse than the other. I love punk, and I love a good punk story. But the appeals of a punk story and a goth story will appeal to different people. I personally love how the CofD games guide you through their themes with various mechanics rather than just telling you what the theme is. I also hate a lot of the historical baggage WoD carries. But that doesn't make WoD worse at carrying its message of revolt against authority.

tl'dr: Both games have strong themes. One styles it's themes in punk (direct, strong and simple) the other in goth (internal, about meaning, in metaphor). If you have to read one paragraph to get the difference and how that difference is valid, read the second, about how the two games could handle the same plot of rebel vampires versus rebel authority.

[Milo v3]

Snipped

Very good explanation of the issue/difference between the games.

[Morty]

The Contagion Chronicle Kickstarter is on. I don't care a whole lot about the Contagion as a setting element, but a dedicated crossover book is something people have wanted for a while.

[Milo v3]

The Contagion Chronicle Kickstarter is on. I don't care a whole lot about the Contagion as a setting element, but a dedicated crossover book is something people have wanted for a while.

Unfortunately it sounds like despite being originally described to people as the Crossover Chronicle when announced, around 70-80% of the book will be tied to just the contagion setting elements. I have still backed enough to see the previews, and the factions are pretty neat but idk if I'll bother getting the actual book when my group is too new to CofD gamelines to spring a "look the status quo of the world is changing"-enemy.

[Morty]

I was pretty disappointed by that myself, but apparently there will still be some material to just help people with crossover, so... worth checking out, at least.

[Milo v3]

I've heard that they're thinking of making crossover-mechanic focused stuff as stretch goals.

[The Jack]

Crossover stuff is relatively easy.

Make up difficulties or whole systems for things that target rage/gnosis/arete. Vampire's virtues are easy to assume.

Vampires get more balanced (against themselves but werewolves especially) if you use 1e soak rules: IE vampires can soak aggravated damage with their stamina unless it's fire, faith or sunlight IE Claws, fangs, Burning blade, formori tentacles all are stamina soakable.


For the rest just use one ruleset for weapons/armour/so on.

Vampires can't use fetishes without the relevant dots in thaumaturgy.
Werewolves are probably like sleepers when it comes to what charms/devices can use. I'm not sure about vamps.
Everyone can use the all-sleepers stuff.


They're not supposed to be equal to eachother, but it's fairly easy to get the different systems to work together.

[Milo v3]

Crossover stuff is relatively easy.

Make up difficulties or whole systems for things that target rage/gnosis/arete. Vampire's virtues are easy to assume.

Vampires get more balanced (against themselves but werewolves especially) if you use 1e soak rules: IE vampires can soak aggravated damage with their stamina unless it's fire, faith or sunlight IE Claws, fangs, Burning blade, formori tentacles all are stamina soakable.


For the rest just use one ruleset for weapons/armour/so on.

Vampires can't use fetishes without the relevant dots in thaumaturgy.
Werewolves are probably like sleepers when it comes to what charms/devices can use. I'm not sure about vamps.
Everyone can use the all-sleepers stuff.


They're not supposed to be equal to eachother, but it's fairly easy to get the different systems to work together.

Uh, Contagion Chronicles is a Chronicles of Darkness product not World of Darkness. There are already answers on how to handle the things you mention in CofD because CofD was made as a single cohesive system (the idea of different gamelines having different weapon rules sounds ridiculous). The issue is that they're nowhere near equal to each other despite that they're meant to be in the same party together, and there are rules gaps here and there for crossover.

[The Jack]

Right, sorry. I'm replying to the third thing in a chain and my mind's buzzing WoD given the other stuff.

Wasn't CoD meant to be more linked though? Like it's a system-first game. Woulda thought they'd be more naturally compatible.

[Milo v3]

Right, sorry. I'm replying to the third thing in a chain and my mind's buzzing WoD given the other stuff.

Wasn't CoD meant to be more linked though? Like it's a system-first game. Woulda thought they'd be more naturally compatible.

They are. The issue is 1) that they're nowhere near equal to each other despite that they're meant to be in the same party together, and 2) things like "what arcana do eidolons count under, are they Mind or Mind/Fate?", "can a mage feed ghosts by creating memories with their magic", "do changelings count as having souls?", "can any splat be an alchemist or only humans?", "what splats count as having a Predator Aura for the purposes of vampires auto-detection powers?", "can powerful strix interact with angel twilight or only ghost twilight and spirit twilight?".

Supernaturals are not balanced against each other because each has different themes, and because there are a lot of abilities in the games there are a lot minor rare edge-cases. The system is still fully compatible with each other, it's just that there are gaps because the books rarely ever put text about crossover in it because they're talking about their own gameline with their own themes.

In WoD, do the different gamelines really have things like different weapon rules? That sounds so weird.

[Morty]

I've heard that they're thinking of making crossover-mechanic focused stuff as stretch goals.

Better than nothing, but I still feel as though they're pushing hard for something no one particularly cares about, as opposed to something people have wanted since nWoD became a thing. More so in 2E/CofD era, which generally strengthens the themes of every specific gameline.

[The Jack]

In WoD, do the different gamelines really have things like different weapon rules? That sounds so weird.

Excluding v5 (of course) The basic premise is the same. A 9mm does 4 dice of damage, a .44 does 6 dice of damage. a sword does str+2, a kevlar vest will give you three dice of armour. Most of the rules for shooting stay the same though there are specific moves that exist only in some books.

However, stuff differs after that.
In vampire, attacking is base difficulty 6 before modifiers, whilst in Werewolf and Mage different weapons have different base difficulties. Knives are 4, chainsaws are 8. Guns remain 6.
The list in vampire is also quite modest, whilst werewolf and mage have some crazy stuff in them with whacky damage decisions. DAV20's expansion has a very interesting melee list that's more realistic when it comes to damage values and has an armour penetrating stat, DAV20 weapons are a little harder to use if you're too weak for them too.

In VTM armour is a minimal 1-5 list. having 1 armour is fine but You get a -1 dex penality for having armour 2 and 3, a -2 dex penalty for 4 and -3 for 5. In WTA there's a bigger list with more examples like a bear cloak (-3 for -3). In Mage there's a big list but also the Dex penalties (whilst still not realistic) are smaller because you're playing a human. (it's -2 dex for full 5 gear, also there's some cool mage stuff)
In a DAV20 book there's an interesting cool system for armour where if you don't do enough damage you only do bashing...

Personally, I double the protection of armour to keep it in line with the threats they're designed to beat and largely wave the dex penalty. I speed up combat in other ways so this isn't a big issue for me.

For weapons I used the 4-7 damages of firearms and estimated the dice of larger ammunition. You're all welcome to my list.

Spoiler

Show

4-9mm
5-.45/.357 mag,
6- .44 mag, 5.45x39
7- 5.56, 7.62x39
10- 7.62x51 Nato/.308
12- 30-06 (most world war 2 rifles and machine guns, also in line with m20's .30 machinegun)
14- .338 lapua magnum
16- 50bmg (which is in line with mage)
18- 14.5x114r
20- 20mm

also there's some pretty hilarious things in the rules. I played a psycho that killed pets once, and his struggle with the house cat found in the book was legendary. He could've lost. Not sure if cat bias but it was a serious threat to my unlife.

There's also different rules for multiple actions in a turn, Different rules for reloading, different rules (or absence or rules) for secondary knowledges and buying new specialities.

[The Glyphstone]

also there's some pretty hilarious things in the rules. I played a psycho that killed pets once, and his struggle with the house cat found in the book was legendary. He could've lost. Not sure if cat bias but it was a serious threat to my unlife.

Cats kill commoners in other game systems now?

[Milo v3]

However, stuff differs after that.
In vampire, attacking is base difficulty 6 before modifiers, whilst in Werewolf and Mage different weapons have different base difficulties. Knives are 4, chainsaws are 8. Guns remain 6.

@_@ Weird, in CofD difficulty isn't a thing that changes. It's just if something is hard or easy you get penalties or bonuses. 8+ is always considered a success on the die, and you always only need a single success to succeed.

For weapons I used the 4-7 damages of firearms and estimated the dice of larger ammunition. You're all welcome to my list.

Does WoD actually go into the degree of caring about what type of gun it is like what magazine is used or is that just for the thing you did?

There's also different rules for multiple actions in a turn, Different rules for reloading, different rules (or absence or rules) for secondary knowledges and buying new specialities.

Yeah all those things in CofD as the same in every gameline because it's rules in the mortal ruleset. And in CofD you never get multiple actions in a turn because of how game-warping that is (outside of reflexive actions which can be done whenever regardless of who's turn it is).


@Cats
here are the CofD cat stats:

Attributes: Intelligence 1, Wits 4, Resolve 3, Strength 1, Dexterity 5, Stamina 3, Presence 3,
Manipulation 1, Composure 3
Skills: Athletics 4, Brawl 2, Stealth 3
Willpower: 6
Initiative: 8
Defense: 9
Speed: 13 (species factor 7)
Size: 2

[The Jack]

Does WoD actually go into the degree of caring about what type of gun it is like what magazine is used or is that just for the thing you did?

Hmmm... maybe.
I take it as a guideline and golden rule it, whilst others will insist a hunting rifle does 8 dice of damage and has X amount of bullets. with the exception of rifles I'll assume stock unless a player/character really wants something very specific, then I'll let them have something specific (if they can feasibly get a hold of it)

If you do take it as a guideline, some of the examples given are a little wrong.
Some bullets are interchangable, like even though the famous AK round is bigger than an AR round, it's not enough for a dice of difference and they're both happy in the 7 dice category. However, the difference between .357 and .44 magnums is big enough for a dice difference, but in one game the six dice heavy revolver is a .357 and in another it's a .44 (the .357 would be happier at 5 dice)

The difference between rifle rounds can be huge. As said, some people insist the bullets you use for varmints, deer, elk, or elephant all be eight dice because the rulebook says so and maybe that's more balanced. I'm a story-first guy so I'll always favour the 'I got this rifle because I want to optimally kill this prey, that should take 12 dice' approach and 'this armour was literally designed for this bullet, it should be at least adequate'.
Vampire's set in the modern day and we don't balance our guns in the name of fairness.

[The Glyphstone]

So what is this Contagion supposed to be? During my dark days as a WoD LARP enthusiast, there was (and apparently still is) a custom crossover-centric venue called Accord, where Lovecraftian extradimensional invaders were trying to corrupt and destroy the world and only supernaturals could stop them. I'm getting similar vibes from this premise.

[Milo v3]

Hmmm... maybe.
I take it as a guideline and golden rule it, whilst others will insist a hunting rifle does 8 dice of damage and has X amount of bullets. with the exception of rifles I'll assume stock unless a player/character really wants something very specific, then I'll let them have something specific (if they can feasibly get a hold of it)

If you do take it as a guideline, some of the examples given are a little wrong.
Some bullets are interchangable, like even though the famous AK round is bigger than an AR round, it's not enough for a dice of difference and they're both happy in the 7 dice category. However, the difference between .357 and .44 magnums is big enough for a dice difference, but in one game the six dice heavy revolver is a .357 and in another it's a .44 (the .357 would be happier at 5 dice)

The difference between rifle rounds can be huge. As said, some people insist the bullets you use for varmints, deer, elk, or elephant all be eight dice because the rulebook says so and maybe that's more balanced. I'm a story-first guy so I'll always favour the 'I got this rifle because I want to optimally kill this prey, that should take 12 dice' approach and 'this armour was literally designed for this bullet, it should be at least adequate'.
Vampire's set in the modern day and we don't balance our guns in the name of fairness.

Way CofD handles it is that guns are just things like "Heavy Pistol" "SMG, small", "Rifle", "Assault Rifle" and each has a single example of what sort of gun it can reflect, and it has a sidebar called "Guns Don’t Work That Way" that talks about how "no, x gun might not work exactly like whatever stats it's given here is the reasons why".

So what is this Contagion supposed to be? During my dark days as a WoD LARP enthusiast, there was (and apparently still is) a custom crossover-centric venue called Accord, where Lovecraftian extradimensional invaders were trying to corrupt and destroy the world and only supernaturals could stop them. I'm getting similar vibes from this premise.

It isn't as specific to be lovecraftian extradimensional invaders, but that would be one way for the contagion to manifest. The contagion is basically a force of change that spreads, that takes some supernatural form. Each faction has their own views on what they think the contagion is. Some see it as a curse from god/gods, some see it as the apocalypse, some think it is what happens in reaction to social-entropy. But regardless of if it is GM infrastructure going all weird causing causality and gravity glitches, revenants starting to arise that release a mind-bending mist when they day sleep instead of sweating vitae, or interdimensional invaders that hide inside the oneiros of those they've conquered and mine glamour from the region.

[Anonymouswizard]

@_@ Weird, in CofD difficulty isn't a thing that changes. It's just if something is hard or easy you get penalties or bonuses. 8+ is always considered a success on the die, and you always only need a single success to succeed.

It's interesting to note the changes from Storyteller to Revised Storyteller to Storyteller, with each step using simplified rolls and reducing the number of rolls needed to resolve an attack (four in WoD, two in Trinity/Exalted/Scion, one in CofD). While you can argue over fluff as much as you want, CofC runs much more smoothly than pre V5 WoD did (oh that was a massive pain to play, I ended up just having all rolls at difficulty seven and changing required successes).

Does WoD actually go into the degree of caring about what type of gun it is like what magazine is used or is that just for the thing you did?

Not in the corebooks (that's much more like CofD), but you did not want to see the Vampire Player's Guide (seriously, multiple cases of guns with the exact same detailed stats, *shudder*).


Well I've been getting more into Forsaken, I'm starting to appreciate it more now than when I was first into CofD and werewolves are one of my favourite mythological creatures, so I decided to puruse The Sundered World because I also find ancient/pre historic roleplaying incredibly interesting. It's nice to see that one of my personal theories about the setting was completely true, even if others weren't.

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The one that I'd got right was that Auspices did exist before the slaying of Father Wolf, and that they are essentially an inherent part of being a werewolf. Less a blessing from Luna and more a sign that their species is related to and favoured by Luna. Although I'm sad to see that my theory that the firstborn also had auspices is neither confirmed or explicitly disproven.

The others are mostly related to Uratha mythology being a lot less accurate than I thought it was. As it's written it feels a like the Uratha might be responsible for the slaying of Urfarah than the Firstborn, or that Urfarah's death had nothing to do with his children at all, and that both the Pure and the Forsaken are very much mistaken about why the worlds are seperate. However it is quite clear how the beliefs about what to do about Urfarah's weakness evolved into some of the Tribes of the modern Uratha and the Bale Hounds.

It's a very interesting setting, although I personally find the Mage aspects much less interesting.

[The Jack]

See, I really like that WoD lets you be really specific in how you want to murder someone. That there's rules for grappling, avoiding armour, going for the eyes, how you can stun people. It's tactical, messy and visceral. It's just really nice to try out a hand to hand sequence of murder.

The only problem is rolling for damage and soak.
Just take half, round up.

It'll save you centuries. At first I thought i'd discount 1's and 10's for soak rolls, and that works better, but then you get a 'why not go further'. The difficulty is 6, that's 1/2 a chance of damage, you might as well save a lot of time and average it.

Goes from one of the most infamously slow combat systems to one of the best. You roll to hit, they roll if they've got a defence, apply. You only need to roll soak when you're on fire or such.

[Milo v3]

Well I've been getting more into Forsaken, I'm starting to appreciate it more now than when I was first into CofD and werewolves are one of my favourite mythological creatures, so I decided to puruse The Sundered World because I also find ancient/pre historic roleplaying incredibly interesting. It's nice to see that one of my personal theories about the setting was completely true, even if others weren't.

The Sundered World is such a cool setting. I love all the pangaean stuff.

See, I really like that WoD lets you be really specific in how you want to murder someone. That there's rules for grappling, avoiding armour, going for the eyes, how you can stun people. It's tactical, messy and visceral. It's just really nice to try out a hand to hand sequence of murder.

There is rules for all of that in CofD. Grappling is on page 89 of core, avoiding armour by targeting body parts not protected is in the specified target rules (which includes going for the eyes and stunning people by hitting them in the head) is on page 92 of core. Some weapons also have the Stun tag, which makes them better at stunning enemies, and some weapons have armor piercing to different degrees.

Defence is also a penalty to enemy attacks by default, rather than something you need to roll (unless you do the dodge action which is a roll that subtracts from enemy successes rather than being a penalty), which speeds things up.

[Anonymouswizard]

See, I really like that WoD lets you be really specific in how you want to murder someone. That there's rules for grappling, avoiding armour, going for the eyes, how you can stun people. It's tactical, messy and visceral. It's just really nice to try out a hand to hand sequence of murder.

Assuming you don't have Core (I don't, really need to change that) the basic combat system in most 2e gamelines includes: grappling, touching opponents with your weapon, human shields (intended for use against firearms, but translates to melee), attacking specific body parts (including to get past armour), and stunning by hitting the head. Plus biting for at least those games where it's important.

CofD isn't actually less detailed than WoD anywhere except skill density. It's just streamlined to have less moving parts, and some areas are much better explained (explain to me why powers in WoD don't have a separate cost entry again).

The Sundered World is such a cool setting. I love all the pangaean stuff.

Yep, it's really taken the Werewolf origin lore and run with it to make something interesting. Plus it gets a lot of points for going with a time period you don't tend to see a lot of, most 'prehistoric' games I've seen have either been 'hunter-gatherer tribes only' or 'post city, but pre-writing', a focus on shortly after the invention of agriculture works.

While it is much more of a WoD style 'the Apocalypse is coming and people know it' setting (at least for Werewolves, I actually don't like Awakening so I haven't really read the bit on mages) it does work because the Uratha aren't as united as the Garou were, there's no clear enemy, and it's very certain that something comes after even with without considering main Forsaken.


Also, I have to say one of my favourite bits of Forsaken is the gift Luna's Embrace. As a genderfluid person I'm very glad that the gift is there, and the shape shifters are the most obvious splat to explore such themes. Sure, 1 Essence to switch sex isn't the most powerful ability, but it's still a nice thing to have. You'd never see a Garou swapping sex on a whim (would make the Black Furies* much sillier at any rate).

* On that note, what on Gaia do the Black Furies do with ftm members of their tribe? These are the sort of hard questions I expect W5 to answer.

[RifleAvenger]

Supernaturals are not balanced against each other because each has different themes, and because there are a lot of abilities in the games there are a lot minor rare edge-cases. The system is still fully compatible with each other, it's just that there are gaps because the books rarely ever put text about crossover in it because they're talking about their own gameline with their own themes.

I'm probably in a minority that I've never cared about how balanced the gamelines are against one another. If as ST I've got a good way to blend the themes, and a cooperative party, that's what ultimately matters. Every player still winds up with stuff to do.

Think the best crossover I ever ran was Werewolf x Princess (yeah, it's with a fan gameline, but the issues of cross-play are no different). The themes were differing interpretations of harmony, the necessity of force/violence, and the themes of finding strength in community both games already share (with the difference in scale and scope of that community between lines falling back into the prior two themes).

Though, to be fair, stuff on the upper tiers like a Mage with time to plan (or the ability to MAKE time to plan) tend to warp the game more towards being Mage with other supernaturals in place of Sleepwalkers (or more competent Sleepwalkers in Hunter's case).

Way CofD handles it is that guns are just things like "Heavy Pistol" "SMG, small", "Rifle", "Assault Rifle" and each has a single example of what sort of gun it can reflect, and it has a sidebar called "Guns Don’t Work That Way" that talks about how "no, x gun might not work exactly like whatever stats it's given here is the reasons why".

There WAS that nWoD/1e Armory book which listed a lot of real life firearm and explosive models with different stats. Which was busted in some regards since some guns had 9 or even 8 again as a base property.

[Milo v3]

I'm probably in a minority that I've never cared about how balanced the gamelines are against one another. If as ST I've got a good way to blend the themes, and a cooperative party, that's what ultimately matters. Every player still winds up with stuff to do.

I am fine with gamelines not being balanced against each other by default, since different gamelines have different themes and purposes. The issue is that people can easily be accidentally eclipsed by what other members of the party can do because some gamelines are so much greater in scope and get effects for a lot less xp. Compare a guy who wants to be a warrior vampire and plays a daeva, he ends having 2 dots of vigour and 1 dot of celerity to increase his strength and then maybe the group has 10 xp to start with so he gets 3 vigour/3 celerity. All the while, his party member wants to be a druid type character, so he plays a thrysus and starts with 3 Life, 2 Spirit, 1 Matter, and spends his 10 xp on 2 mind so he can control animals. Group ends up doing fights now and then, and the druid realizes that he can just arbitarily buff his or a Living allies physical stats to things like 10 for a week without much trouble, so he can be a super strong/dexterous/tough warrior, while also being able to mess with the spirit world, control peoples minds, make objects do things, find out about anything biological/spiritual/mental without any issue, can detect and hide life, can heal the living, etc.

Think the best crossover I ever ran was Werewolf x Princess (yeah, it's with a fan gameline, but the issues of cross-play are no different). The themes were differing interpretations of harmony, the necessity of force/violence, and the themes of finding strength in community both games already share (with the difference in scale and scope of that community between lines falling back into the prior two themes).

Intertwining the themes is definitely an important thing to crossover that I feel that is underestimated, but it doesn't really help with "X character has much more versatile powers and more narrative affecting powers than other players".

There WAS that nWoD/1e Armory book which listed a lot of real life firearm and explosive models with different stats. Which was busted in some regards since some guns had 9 or even 8 again as a base property.

I never read 1e, but I can see why they didn't repeat that mindset when they did Hurt Locker for 2e.

Assuming you don't have Core (I don't, really need to change that) the basic combat system in most 2e gamelines includes: grappling, touching opponents with your weapon, human shields (intended for use against firearms, but translates to melee), attacking specific body parts (including to get past armour), and stunning by hitting the head. Plus biting for at least those games where it's important.

CofD isn't actually less detailed than WoD anywhere except skill density. It's just streamlined to have less moving parts, and some areas are much better explained (explain to me why powers in WoD don't have a separate cost entry again).



Yep, it's really taken the Werewolf origin lore and run with it to make something interesting. Plus it gets a lot of points for going with a time period you don't tend to see a lot of, most 'prehistoric' games I've seen have either been 'hunter-gatherer tribes only' or 'post city, but pre-writing', a focus on shortly after the invention of agriculture works.

While it is much more of a WoD style 'the Apocalypse is coming and people know it' setting (at least for Werewolves, I actually don't like Awakening so I haven't really read the bit on mages) it does work because the Uratha aren't as united as the Garou were, there's no clear enemy, and it's very certain that something comes after even with without considering main Forsaken.


Also, I have to say one of my favourite bits of Forsaken is the gift Luna's Embrace. As a genderfluid person I'm very glad that the gift is there, and the shape shifters are the most obvious splat to explore such themes. Sure, 1 Essence to switch sex isn't the most powerful ability, but it's still a nice thing to have. You'd never see a Garou swapping sex on a whim (would make the Black Furies* much sillier at any rate).

* On that note, what on Gaia do the Black Furies do with ftm members of their tribe? These are the sort of hard questions I expect W5 to answer.

I see it as less Apocalypse is coming given that it isn't some external thing that is coming. It's something that the uratha choose to do. It could be your player characters that do it, or maybe they fight to protect Urfarah and succeed, thus preventing the sundering from happening.

[Milo v3]

The session I ran today abridged:

Act One: Welp, looks like we are going to have our first death in the party.
Act Two: Being so bad at seducing that your dog bites someone to get you out of the awkwardness.
Act Three: Five vampires playing monopoly on Christmas Morning with a super intelligent dog as the banker.