Yet another "Charisma vs Physical Attractiveness" discussion

[slachance6]

Warning: wall of text ahead. Please bear with me.

At this point, any mention of the relationship or lack thereof between the Charisma stat and physical attractiveness opens up a can of worms. It's a hotly debated subject that's been around since the early days of D&D and is approaching the level of the alignment debate, so this post or thread probably isn't going to change anything. I just want to give my seemingly logical opinion and see what other people think. Overall, I believe that Charisma is best off as written and intended: an abstract amalgamation of multiple factors, with physical attractiveness being only one of these factors.

First of all, I think that people who do claim that Charisma is only a measure of physical appearance are not nearly as common as people think. In my experience, these people are usually new players that can understand the truth once it is explained to them. While those who claim that charisma has nothing to do with physical appearance are not nearly as wrong (in my opinion), they are far more common and more difficult to persuade. So here are a few of this group's common arguments and my counter-arguments as to why physical attractiveness represents one factor in the broad abstraction of Charisma.

The definition of Charisma has nothing to do with physical attractiveness! Yes it does; the Oxford Dictionary defines it as "compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others". And yes, your preferred dictionary or personal definition may differ, but so does D&D's version. If you look up "beholder" or "monk" in a dictionary it won't exactly coincide with D&D's version. Attractiveness is included in the umbrella that is Charisma because it doesn't belong anywhere else.

Charisma is a mental stat, not a physical one! Yes, it is overall influenced by mental factors more so than physical factors, but that doesn't mean that it can't have some physical components. Dexterity is a physical stat, even though hand-eye coordination and reflexes could be considered mental. And Perception could be considered physical, even though it keys off of a mental stat, Wisdom.

There are plenty of ugly monsters with high Charisma scores! Physical attractiveness is to Charisma as a square is to a rectangle. If you are physically attractive, you (probably) have high Charisma, but if you have high Charisma, you aren't necessarily physically attractive. I have yet to find a creature that is described as physically appealing that does not have a high Charisma score. Of course, it is possible to be attractive and have a low overall Charisma score if your social skills are truly terrible.

Physical beauty is too subjective to quantify! It's no more subjective than any other part of Charisma. Just as I might not find a certain type of look particularly appealing, I might not be convinced by a certain type of leader or entertained by a certain type of personality that everyone else seems to like. That's what dice rolls are for. If a celebrity that everyone else finds attractive or funny or entertaining isn't that to you, they still have a high Charisma score. They just failed their check against you.

Physical attraction is too trivial to be mechanically represented! To be fair, this is probably the strongest argument against attractiveness being related to Charisma, as genuine persuasion and inspiration gets you further than good looks in the long term. But it is true that physical and sexual attraction does play a significant part in most peoples' motivations, and attractive people do usually have an easier time getting their way. Look at the amount of time people spend talking about how good-looking other people are, how they go out of their way to impress people that they are attracted to, and heck, even the amount of time D&D players spend debating this topic! And in a world less advanced and sophisticated than out modern world (i.e. most D&D settings), this is even more true, since people are more desiring of carnal pleasures. In addition, the vast majority of modern celebrities, who are well-liked and therefore generally have high Charisma, are conventionally handsome or beautiful. Yes, there are plenty of unattractive but charismatic people out there, but if they looked better, their Charisma score would be even higher because more people would initially pay attention to them.

Things like sorcerer spellcasting have no reason to be governed by how pretty you are! Some arguments like this are relatively fair, although people still need to remember that physical appearance stands among many other factors, some of which could logically improve spellcasting. An even more interesting way to fix this, though, is to say that a high Charisma score is a by-product of sorcerous power, not the other way around. It could be defined as a constant, minor aura of enchantment that could even be flavored as supernatural beauty.

So, yeah, the Charisma stat has something, but not nothing and not everything, to do with physical attractiveness. I personally think that it's better off left as an abstraction, as it was written and intended. There are a couple of logical flaws, such as the fact that someone who is attractive should have an easier time dealing with people that are attracted to his/her sex. This could warrant a minor house rule of some kind; I actually made one for Pathfinder and posted it over on the Paizo forums, but since then I think I don't need to bother unless a debate arises around my table.

However, I think that adding a seventh stat is a terrible idea. I admire systems like GURPS that explicitly separate charisma and appearance and account for both mechanically, but trying to add something like that to D&D would be very clunky and completely unnecessary. First of all, if it's treated like the other six ability scores, it would be a universal dump stat, and players would have to envision ugly characters for the price of being optimized. Even if it is determined in a different way, justifying appearance it as an entire ability score would be very difficult, and it's not worth designing an intricate set of homebrew rules if it's better off included in the "Charisma" umbrella.

Congratulations for reading this far. What did you think of this overly long analysis? Those of you who still say that Charisma has nothing to do with appearance, what arguments did I miss? Do you have any house rules or other opinions in place?

[Green Elf]

So, yeah, the Charisma stat has something, but not nothing and not everything, to do with physical attractiveness. I personally think that it's better off left as an abstraction, as it was written and intended. There are a couple of logical flaws, such as the fact that someone who is attractive should have an easier time dealing with people that are attracted to his/her sex. This could warrant a minor house rule of some kind; I actually made one for Pathfinder and posted it over on the Paizo forums, but since then I think I don't need to bother unless a debate arises around my table.

Congratulations for reading this far. What did you think of this overly long analysis? Those of you who still say that Charisma has nothing to do with appearance, what arguments did I miss? Do you have any house rules or other opinions in place?

I completely agree although something like an old ugly cleric probably wouldn't get any more followers of her had a better physical appearance. Also, I completely agree with it being a wall of text and it's probably the last post on the first page.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

"the Charisma stat has something, but not nothing and not everything, to do with physical attractiveness. I personally think that it's better off left as an abstraction, as it was written and intended"

This I agree with. Using only 6 stats you are going to have some overlap.

The game makes several statements regarding force of personality. In real life I will say it is easier for a somewhat attractive person to gather followers.

I would think a butt repulsive Bard would have to overcome his/her physical appearance to woo a crowd but the CHA score for spellcasting is probably not affected much by her/his ugliness.

[Amaril]

I do like the idea of a sorcerer's innate magic giving them an aura of enchantment that can manifest as physical beauty. One other explanation I've thought of for the "being pretty makes you good at magic" phenomenon is that sorcery is powered largely by self-confidence, and pretty people can have an easier time being confident in themselves (assuming they have high enough Wisdom to know how attractive they are).

[JeenLeen]

I think the D&D 3.5 PHB refers to Charisma as primarily "force of personality" and conception of self as opposed to other beings. IIRC, all creatures have a Charisma score of at least 1, since otherwise they would not be able to differentiate between themselves and other beings or objects.

If that is taken as the base, and appearance just added as an additional factor, I think players can understand better what Charisma means in the context of a given game. (Of course, here I'm using 3.5 D&D, so the definition may differ game to game/edition.) I like adding the interpretation to Charisma -- although I believe this is an addition -- the concept that it mainly impacts one's beauty based on how one carries oneself: the degree of confidence, one's pose and posture, and how one relates to others. (This is mainly lifted from old World of Darkness and Scion.) Such might make players who argue that Charisma has no attachment to attractiveness more willing to accept attractiveness as one aspect.

Definitely agree that adding a 7th stat just clutters things up. I prefer it (house rules) to have players just say how pretty or not the character is, and it impacts little. They still to roll well to meaningfully impact others (Persuasion rolls, or whatever, governed by Charisma), so it makes something that should be fairly unimportant mechanically unimportant. Though this is probably too much in the "Physical attraction is too trivial to be mechanically represented!" camp for your tastes.

[Stealth Marmot]

I always considered the idea that player characters looked however they liked overall.

If they had a low charisma, it could be explained by them being clumsy with their words and always saying the wrong thing, or being overall very meek. Think Simon Tam on Firefly. He was clumsy with his words, couldn't bluff to save his life, and constantly said the wrong thing to Kaylee, but as far as looks goes he was clearly quite attractive.

I have played in games where attractiveness was a stat, but the problem is that you then have a seventh stat, and it could easily be a dump stat if you count it with the rest. It discourages a character who is min maxing from even interacting with people in general if they are going to get a negative initial interaction. That's why we rolled the stat separately in our game, as opposed to rolling it with the rest of the stats.

[Mastikator]

Unless you need to create an abstraction for physical attractiveness it is automatically fluff. It makes a great deal of sense to think that charisma and physical attractiveness are related but it's either unnecessary or should be explicitly stipulated. You should only model things that actually benefit from being modeled in the first place. This is why I think there should be fewer stats, and the remaining ones should be more specific.

[Ravens_cry]

The way I see it, the player and (in games they have a say) GM decides what kind of mix their character has, because, for better or for worse, people are more likely to believe, follow, and listen more to people they consider to be physically attractive*. It isn't the whole picture, but it is part of it. So a character might use their exceptional beauty as a 'crutch' , or they might be a complete mug who, nonetheless, has a tongue that can follow a corkscrew, or somewhere in-between.
*My theory is that way back in Ye Olde Paleolithic people who were attractive were more likely to be well fed and free of debilitating disease, and therefore were a) good potential breeding partners and b)were knowledgeable in things that mattered, or had connections to those who did, and therefore were worth listening to.

[Koo Rehtorb]

How do you even represent a subjective trait with an objective number?

If a person with 18 charisma in one culture goes to a different culture with completely different standards of beauty does their charisma score change? If you're talking to a person in the same culture who happens to value physical traits that differ from the cultural norm does your charisma score temporarily shift?

[Anonymouswizard]

I always considered the idea that player characters looked however they liked overall.

If they had a low charisma, it could be explained by them being clumsy with their words and always saying the wrong thing, or being overall very meek. Think Simon Tam on Firefly. He was clumsy with his words, couldn't bluff to save his life, and constantly said the wrong thing to Kaylee, but as far as looks goes he was clearly quite attractive.

I agree with this. Because honestly, at the end of the day about 80% of the characters players make are the same level of 'attractive but not overly so' in my experience, with maybe the outlier who is an absolute stunner about once in a group. My current group has a character who assumes a generically attractive human form, one who goes from 'fairly attractive geek' to 'fairly attractive mountain of muscle' upon using his powers, my generically robotic robot, and one particularly attractive character (who gets extra bonuses when interacting with people specifically attracted to four armed purple chicks).

If looks need to be modelled I prefer to do it with feats/traits/aspects/whatever. In Chronicles of Darkness I would take the Striking Looks merit, in the Mistborn Adventure Game everyone gets something distinctive about their looks or mannerisms as a trait, and in Savage Worlds Attractive and Very Attractive are edges.

I have played in games where attractiveness was a stat, but the problem is that you then have a seventh stat, and it could easily be a dump stat if you count it with the rest. It discourages a character who is min maxing from even interacting with people in general if they are going to get a negative initial interaction. That's why we rolled the stat separately in our game, as opposed to rolling it with the rest of the stats.

Honestly, when I played GURPS nobody bought up Appearance even though it wasn't a full stat, but nobody dropped it either (our games include a lot of interacting with people). The problem was that, with all the other social skill boosts in the game, it just became redundant when it only affected about half the characters we met at full power. Sure, we'll stack Charisma until we're in the low teens, it's a mere five points per bonus rank in all our social skills (which adds up to so many saved points in our games that I generally put all my XP towards it), but physical appearance cost almost as much for half the benefit, there was no logical reason to buy it up.

[PersonMan]

How do you even represent a subjective trait with an objective number?

If a person with 18 charisma in one culture goes to a different culture with completely different standards of beauty does their charisma score change? If you're talking to a person in the same culture who happens to value physical traits that differ from the cultural norm does your charisma score temporarily shift?

Couldn't you say the same about behavior, force of personality, etc. though?

"What if your assertive confident type goes to a culture where being assertive and confident is seen as rude? Does their score temporarily shift?"

[Koo Rehtorb]

Couldn't you say the same about behavior, force of personality, etc. though?

"What if your assertive confident type goes to a culture where being assertive and confident is seen as rude? Does their score temporarily shift?"

You can look at it as being able to fit in well with whatever the expected successful behaviour is. Sure there might be a transition period but if you spend enough time in that culture the high charisma person would probably have an easier time adapting to it.

[PersonMan]

You can look at it as being able to fit in well with whatever the expected successful behaviour is. Sure there might be a transition period but if you spend enough time in that culture the high charisma person would probably have an easier time adapting to it.

So if you're in Culture A, and a man from Culture B, which you've never even heard of approaches you - do you have a lower Charisma then? You haven't had a chance to 'fit in'.

If you've just arrived in Culture B, do you have a lower Charisma until you learn to 'fit in'?

What if you don't want to fit in? If you're in a kobold den and don't want to learn kobold etiquette, is your Charisma lower?

[Koo Rehtorb]

So if you're in Culture A, and a man from Culture B, which you've never even heard of approaches you - do you have a lower Charisma then? You haven't had a chance to 'fit in'.

If you've just arrived in Culture B, do you have a lower Charisma until you learn to 'fit in'?

What if you don't want to fit in? If you're in a kobold den and don't want to learn kobold etiquette, is your Charisma lower?

Charisma isn't the "everyone loves you no matter what you do" stat. In the case of totally alien cultures charisma can be represented as your ability to downplay your cultural ignorances and get along with them anyway. You can certainly choose not to exercise it, just like someone with high con can choose not to run everywhere all the time. But yes, if a 3 cha and an 18 cha character who both speak kobold try to make nice with a den of kobolds the 18 cha guy will probably have better results, all other things being equal.

Both the 3 and 18 charisma people can certainly have social troubles in foreign cultures, but all other things being equal the 18 cha person should make a much better job of it because "the ability to develop and use social skills" extends beyond cultural norms whereas physical attractiveness doesn't.

[Cluedrew]

One definition of Charisma that I liked for this context is that charisma is the "otherness" you can see in a person. Or put a different way it is the undefinable trait you can notice but never put your finger on. Its almost like magic.

Anyways, I once had a character who's pseudo-charisma stat (not D&D) I described as reputation. In other words it was mostly due to the character's reputation they had built up as part of their backstory and not their own people skills. To me stats describe how able a character is in an area (because that's what the numbers are used for) and although this usually flows from certain character traits it is does not always flow from the same ones. So separating charisma from people skills as well, in a rare corner case.

[Anonymouswizard]

So if you're in Culture A, and a man from Culture B, which you've never even heard of approaches you - do you have a lower Charisma then? You haven't had a chance to 'fit in'.

If you've just arrived in Culture B, do you have a lower Charisma until you learn to 'fit in'?

What if you don't want to fit in? If you're in a kobold den and don't want to learn kobold etiquette, is your Charisma lower?

Situational modifiers. Meet someone from an unfamiliar culture with different rules of etiquette? -2 modifier. Go to their culture without learning the rules? -2 modifier. Learn the rules but decide you don't want to follow them? -2 modifier.

Conversely, them finding you attractive is worth a +2 modifier. Flattery may also be worth one.

The standard 3.5 +2/-2 modifier is incredibly useful, especially once you allow stacking. So you go to talk to a kobold in the den of kobolds, but you only have a shaky grasp of their language, are ignorant of their culture, and you killed the chief's brother? that's a (-2)+(-2)+(-2)=-6 modifier to your roll due to all these circumstances that 'lower' your charisma while applied.

Yes, I know it's not technically what you mean, but if we assume the Charisma reflects a character's ability to get along with people in their home culture we can just start using cross-cultural modifiers.

[slachance6]

You can look at it as being able to fit in well with whatever the expected successful behaviour is. Sure there might be a transition period but if you spend enough time in that culture the high charisma person would probably have an easier time adapting to it.

And even then, I don't think you necessary need to "fit in" to be charismatic in a foreign environment. People are naturally curious of outsiders, so if this outsider seems comely or trustworthy rather than suspicious, he or she will attract positive attention and probably won't have much of a problem interacting in an unknown environment. Yes, there are some exceptions, but this is probably true in most civilized cultures.

[lelrekt2142]

I
Honestly, when I played GURPS nobody bought up Appearance even though it wasn't a full stat, but nobody dropped it either (our games include a lot of interacting with people). The problem was that, with all the other social skill boosts in the game, it just became redundant when it only affected about half the characters we met at full power. Sure, we'll stack Charisma until we're in the low teens, it's a mere five points per bonus rank in all our social skills (which adds up to so many saved points in our games that I generally put all my XP towards it), but physical appearance cost almost as much for half the benefit, there was no logical reason to buy it up.

Ehh... I don't know about this. Very Handsome/Beautiful costs about the same as Charisma 3, and the former gives a +6/+2 bonus depending on whether the person is attracted to your sex while the latter gives only a flat +3. Yes, Charisma boosts a few more skills, but once you take into account that someone who took a good appearance is probably going to be interacting with the opposite gender and using Sex Appeal more often, I think it's balanced enough.

Besides, I'm not saying you're playing the game wrong, but I personally don't really see why people play optimization-heavy GURPS at all. I love the system to death, but it's not exceptionally well-balanced. The strength of at least its character creation system is that you can stat up any character you can imagine with extreme accuracy to what you visualized. If you imagined your character as attractive, then take an Attractiveness advantage. The basic level is only 4 points. When I run games, I don't even set a strict point limit; I just set a ballpark and make sure no character will completely outshine another.

[LibraryOgre]

How do you even represent a subjective trait with an objective number?

If a person with 18 charisma in one culture goes to a different culture with completely different standards of beauty does their charisma score change? If you're talking to a person in the same culture who happens to value physical traits that differ from the cultural norm does your charisma score temporarily shift?

Interestingly enough, this was modeled in earlier editions of D&D. Dwarves and Half-orcs, notably, had caps on their charisma, but it was noted that those caps did not apply to members of their own race... so, if you rolled an 18 Charisma for your half-orc, you'd actually have a 12, but your orc and half-orc henchmen would consider you to have an 18. That meant you could have 5 non-orcish henchmen, and they'd have no adjustments to their loyalty, but on top of that, you could have 10 orcish henchmen, who'd get a +40% loyalty adjustment. In fact, given that you also got a +35% reaction adjustment from orcs and half-orcs, you might find yourself with 15 henchmen of that nature, all of whom would be very loyal.

Of course, Hackmaster has an explicit "Looks" stat, which directly interacts with Charisma. At character creation, Looks adds +/-6 points to your Charisma. After character creation, modifications to your Looks score has a 1:1 effect on your Charisma. Gain a point of Looks? You gain a point of Charisma. Lose a point of Looks? You lose a point of Charisma. The rationale is that pretty people get taken better in a lot of things... you might actually have the personality of Mud, but if you're pretty, people listen to you and like you more.

[Ravens_cry]

Unearthed Arcana in AD&D (first edition at least, never seen UA 2nd edition) had an optional comeliness stat. It was . . . wrong, oh so very wrong. For example, you could be soooo ugly, that evil people would be attracted to you. Because evil people are well known for not being judgemental about personal appearance.

[The Insanity]

First off, Charisma has nothing to do with physical attractiveness because neither polymorphing nor body swaping changes your Charisma.
Second off, attractiveness doesn't come from Charisma. It's the other way around, attractiveness makes you more likely to be charismatic.

[Squiddish]

First off, Charisma has nothing to do with physical attractiveness because neither polymorphing nor body swaping changes your Charisma.
Second off, attractiveness doesn't come from Charisma. It's the other way around, attractiveness makes you more likely to be charismatic.

You just contradicted yourself.

[The Insanity]

I don't see a contradiction.

[Martin Greywolf]

1) This doesn't belong in generic RPG subthread, as it is a DnD-centric thing. Other games (FATE, for one) handle this way, way better.

2) Appearance can't be a stat by normal definition

You can't add it to normal 6 stats because it messes up normal mechanics something fierce, and compensating for it is vastly more complex than people assume. You have 6 stats, your roll for them and assign rolls - adding one stat that mechanically does very little makes average of the 6 useful stats better. Same with point buy, give more points out and people WILL put them into something that benefits them from mechanical standpoint.

If you make attractiveness useful, you need to overhaul a lot of bonuses to skills and class features, and most of them won't be that easy to shoehorn into attractiveness (casting levels, paladin bonuses, etc).

So no, you can't make this into a stat.

3) Pseudostats are bad

If you make it a stat you roll for outside of normal ones, then why? It's just... it adds unnecessary bookkeeping, it clutters the rules (this is a stat, but not really) and so on.

Another problem is that players often play to get wish fulfilment, and banning them from looking good is... not a great idea. Some don't really care, and for those, this stat may as well not exist, so it's, again, not necessary.

4) There are better ways to do this

If someone wants to play pretty or ugly person, just use free feat to cover it. You don't even have to write it up all that well, just +2/-2 to rolls where applicable (pretty rogue seducing a clueless guard - yes; busty chainmail-bikini-clad woman in culture that has feudal Japanese beauty standards - no). That way you can adjudicate on a case-to-case basis and still have a mechanical effect, and it is handled by mechanic that is already present.

[veti]

Self-confidence is an important part of charisma, regardless of context.

Someone who is considered attractive within their "home" culture is likely to grow up with greater self-confidence, than someone who is considered ugly or deformed.

Ergo, there is a positive connection between the character's charisma and their appearance as judged by their home culture, i.e. the culture in which they grew up.

[KnightOfV]

Always found physical attractiveness to be a fluff choice, not a game mechanic. Like hair color, or weight. A Charismatic character CAN be attractive, or not, but either way people are wired to like confidence and social power even over physical appearance. An uncharasmatic character can get unwanted attention from their looks as they don't have the force of personality to control social interactions. Paladins, Sorcerers, and Dragons all command respect and awe from mortals, monsters, and gods=high CHA. Handsome but personality-lacking elf fighters and beautiful tavern maids just get a lot of annoying people of the opposite sex bothering them all the time=low CHA.

Spoiler: How I run Charisma vs Attractiveness

Show

Attractive character with low Charisma: "I try to get information from the guard." He wants to take you home and have your children, and he is flirting with you non-stop... also he refuses to tell you anything about his boss.

Unattractive character with high Charisma: "I try to get information from the guard." You talk with an air of authority and professionalism directing the conversation where you want, and before the guard even realizes it, he's let it slip that there are rumors that his boss has connections with the assassins' guild"

Spoiler: another example

Show

Attractive character with low Charisma: "I enter the tavern." The women are all swooning at the sight of you, whispering and winking at you, but the tavern keeper rolls his eyes at 'the pretty boy' and ignores you when you ask for a drink. When you actually try flirting with a girl, you get laughed at for your awkward pickup lines and rejected.

Unattractive character with high Charisma: "I enter the tavern." There is a pause as you walk in as everyone stops what they are doing to watch you enter wondering who you are. The tavern keeper thinks you have the air of someone important, and hands you his finest ale, 'compliments of the house.' When you flirt with the prettiest girl in the bar, she feels a deep connection and talks to you all night.

[Stormwalker]

As I see it, your Charisma score is the sum total of your physical attractiveness and your force of personality. How to divide up those two factors is solely up to the player of the character in question, as it's basically the fluff to go with the game mechanics of your attribute.

[Joe the Rat]

Having a high charisma can make you more likeable, if you wish.
Having a high charisma can make you the center of attention, if you wish.
Having a high charisma can make you more feared, or hated, if you wish.
Having a high charisma can make you blend into a crowd, if you wish.

Low charisma can have these things happen, but you have less control over the outcomes. High Charisma Fugly? Fear and avoidance is easy, but you can turn on the charm and be engaging. Low Charisma Hottie? You can get a lot of attention, probably more than you want, and not necessarily the kind that you want, and you don't really know how to use it to your advantage.

Charisma is the ability to influence others, and control how you are seen.

Attractiveness feeds into the first impression, which is a big deal. Putting points into Sartiorial Awareness can help quite a bit.

First off, Charisma has nothing to do with physical attractiveness because neither polymorphing nor body swaping changes your Charisma.
Second off, attractiveness doesn't come from Charisma. It's the other way around, attractiveness makes you more likely to be charismatic.

You just contradicted yourself.

I don't see a contradiction.

The first statement says Charisma and Attractiveness are unrelated, as changing appearance does not change Charisma. No association.
The second statement says Attractiveness contributes to Charisma, meaning that changing appearance would change Charisma. A causal association.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'd surmise that the real reason Sorcerers are "Powered by Charisma" is that Intelligence and Wisdom were already taken.

[Hawkstar]

Couldn't you say the same about behavior, force of personality, etc. though?

"What if your assertive confident type goes to a culture where being assertive and confident is seen as rude? Does their score temporarily shift?"

Even complete jerks can have high charisma. It's all about the style, baby.

People get the relationship between Charisma and Appearance backward.