Cloistered Cleric

[MeklorIlavator]

I tried to introduce the cloistered cleric to a campaign, and the players were...less than enthused. In fact, their overall resentment, along with questioning the starting level of the campaign, cause me to drop Dming, letting someone else do it. Their argument was that the variant nerfed the cleric too much, to the extent that it was worthless, worse than the Fighter. Am I wrong? Or is the variant no that bad?


Also, anyone whose run the Red Hand of Doom, what level did you start it at?

[Draz74]

Can't help with the Red Hand of Doom part. But ...

Cloistered Cleric is just fine. Your players really shouldn't be worried about it.

Heck, it can still ClericZilla and out-fight a fighter, with the Big Three Buffs (Divine Favor/Divine Power/Righteous Might). It just sucks at combat without those three, which makes it a little less ridiculously overpowered.

Actually, in any campaign where the characters have good opportunities to use Skills in general, the Cloistered Cleric is probably better than the normal Cleric. Just not in a kick-in-the-door type of campaign. The regular cleric has too few skill points to learn to tie his shoes, the Cloistered is almost a skill-monkey type.

Pick out decent save-or-suck spells (you're still a full caster!), accept that you will sometimes be a healbot, and take comfort in your out-of-combat usefulness, and your lack of heavy armor won't be a big deal.

My suggestion: since you gave the DMing job to someone else, you should play a Cloistered Cleric now and show off as much as possible.

[Gavin Sage]

Its nice to be reminded that not everyone knows about Codzilla.

[MeklorIlavator]

Its nice to be reminded that not everyone knows about Codzilla.

Oh, they know about it, they just don't like to be nerfed. Plus, at least one of them is a ineffective powergamer who has a love affair with the current cleric class, so much so that he hate the favored soul. The problem being that I think the Favored soul is good as is, but the cleric needs a little less gouda.

Anyone have experience with the classes, as to their relative power level with other classes? Its hard to make an argument with someone without actual proof. Also, the d6 gives 1 less hit point on average than the d8, right?

[Jack_Simth]

The Cloistered Cleric takes the Cleric and...

Removes default Combat-Capable abilities (Heavy armor, 3/4ths BAB, d8 HD -> Light armor, 1/2 BAB, d6 HD)
Adds Skill-monkey capability (base 6 skill points per level)
Adds some nice spells (mostly utility - Identify {with no material component - the crushed pearl infusion is technically an Arcane Material component - doesn't apply to Clerics}, Unseen Servant, and so on)

If you're not looking to play CoDZilla, it's fine.

There is a downside, though; it also cuts into the combat healer role, as it is a lot harder for the Cloistered Cleric to stand on the front-lines to heal the Fighter effectively.

[Thinker]

Its not a big nerf. Its fairly comparable in power and with reach spell has no problem healing if need be, though most healing is done out of combat and via wand. The big difference is a larger reliance on buffs if it enters melee, though it still has all kinds of caster capability.

[TheOOB]

Remind the players that as a full spellcaster with access to an entire spell list (heck, more then an entire list) they are still allready more powerful then most any non-caster and hybrid casters.

Clerics don't need good combat ability out of the box, they have a metric ton of magic for that. I usually tell my players that if they want the fighting holy man, play a favored soul.

[Solo]

To teach the players the error of their ways, we will be happy to help you make a well built cloistered cleric if you so desire.

[ByeLindgren]

I'm playing a Cloistered Cleric by my own preference on these very boards. Then again, I'm an odd type who likes to play support casters. It's a nifty class and works well with many of the CDiv prestige classes. While your gamers are right that Cloistered < Regular in terms of 'OVER 9000' power, as others have already said, it's a damn full casting class with a good spell list. He has no ground.

Although...

Your cleric player might have legitimate beef with the nerf if the rest of the party is Batman and Mr. Fleshraker Dinosaur Druid, but for some reason I doubt that's the case.

[Diggorian]

I changed clerics to this variant in my campaign, and further named them Priests. The one I have is actually more valuable to the party as a walking library/healer, since all Knowledge skills are class.

It's a great variant that I prefer and it even fits the meaning of the word closer. RAW version is too much made for the Crusades, which doesnt fit in an polytheistic world IMO. They are too much like paladins to me.

[MeklorIlavator]

Actually, the rest of the party was Fax Celetis's paladin, a Psion, and an undecided. The undecided and the cleric were going to use some incarnum, though they were somewhat ticked off that I wasn't allowing it out of hand( I hadn't been able to read the book at all, and was holding fast to my rule of "no new stuff till I give it a once over"). So its not like he would have been weak in party terms.

[TheOOB]

To teach the players the error of their ways, we will be happy to help you make a well built cloistered cleric if you so desire.

It's hard not to make a well built cloistered cleric. The primary abilities of the class are it's spells, and since you can completely change those every day even if you pick all bad feats you still can fix your spells within 24 hours.

[Nifft]

In my experience (as a DM and player), Cloistered Cleric is better than regular Cleric, and certainly better than Fighter.

However... you were offering CCleric as an option, next to regular Cleric, right? Not as an "instead-of" thing? Not all religions are scholarly; some are far more war-like. For the martial ones, a regular low-skill heavy-armor Cleric with the War domain seems like a good choice, no?

Cheers, -- N

[MeklorIlavator]

However... you were offering CCleric as an option, next to regular Cleric, right? Not as an "instead-of" thing? Not all religions are scholarly; some are far more war-like. For the martial ones, a regular low-skill heavy-armor Cleric with the War domain seems like a good choice, no?

Actually, it was an instead of thing, because I feel if they want to be a basher, they should go into favored soul. And I know it makes more sense in some religions, but the main reason I'm ticked is that they were effectively telling me that I didn't know what I was talking about, in terms of campaign balance, specifically that the cloistered cleric was too weak and that I was setting up a TPK.

[Haakon]

I am currently DMing the Red Hand of Doom and started the pc's at level 5. They are doing well actually, just about to finish the first chapter.

[MeklorIlavator]

I am currently DMing the Red Hand of Doom and started the pc's at level 5. They are doing well actually, just about to finish the first chapter.

I was going to start them at the same level, but they were against it, again saying that it would make them too weak. The whole thing made me feel that they were saying that they knew the campaign better than I did, which is partly why I said enough was enough.

[Matthew]

Just ask them to bear with you. explain that you're not trying to 'scupper them', just that you think it would be better played 'this way' and that they might as well try it. "Think of it as an adventure". Also explain that D&D is by no means a balanced game and that even Attribute Scores can make Character Level X more like Character Level X+Y.

In short. "Look guys, you asked me to run this campaign (or I suggested we run this campaign). I have looked through the material and I think that this is appropriate. If you cannot trust my judgement on this, how can you expect me to run a 'fair' game? Are you going to second guess my every ruling during play? That doesn't sound fun to me. I'm not here to beat you, my entire purpose is to run a fun and fair game."

[Maerok]

As a DM and a player, I prefer the cloistered cleric variant. Though I do have a slight apprehension that a book-prone divine spellcaster is encroaching on Wizard terrain (such as the Archivist from HoH). If anything, I would change the focus off books per se and more with coming in direct touch with the divine through meditation (sort of like Sufism).

[Diggorian]

Matt's right Meklor, plus everyone wants to play but few step up to DM. You're serving them for free (I assume) it'll be easier for you to find more appreciative players than they can find a more pliant DM.

[Haakon]

Sounds like they have already read the entire adventure (which would be why they think they are too weak). Some of the encounters have alot of weaker opponents, which made it easier for my pcs anyway.

Level 5 was fine. There are some tough encounters that they managed to scrap through, but overall, its a decent level to start at. I tossed in some of my own stuff as well, just to live things up a bit.

[horseboy]

I had 6185 xp at the beginning of Red Hand. If I remember right, isn't that the one where you fly around on the "war turkeys" and there's that dragon fight designed to cause TPK?

[ZOMGoubeaux]

Oh, they know about it, they just don't like to be nerfed. Plus, at least one of them is a ineffective powergamer who has a love affair with the current cleric class, so much so that he hate the favored soul. The problem being that I think the Favored soul is good as is, but the cleric needs a little less gouda.

Anyone have experience with the classes, as to their relative power level with other classes? Its hard to make an argument with someone without actual proof. Also, the d6 gives 1 less hit point on average than the d8, right?

Ineffective powergamer?

Love affair?

Well, those are some strong words for someone who doesn't seem capable of addressing these problems you have with me in person.

I don't have a love affair with the cleric class for the reasons one might think. I simply love the class because I have so many good memories of the first time I played D&D, as I was a cleric, and I had an amazing DM, whom you could learn a LOT from, Meklor.

As for the ineffective powergamer comment...I don't try to powergame. Hence why I choose my classes and races based on which ones I personally think are cool or interesting...it just so happens that what I choose often happens to be effective at what I make them do. Not once have I played a Cleric as a CoDzilla...not because I can't, but because I enjoy the D&D experience, and breaking the game hurts that experience.

I find it ironic that a proven powergamer is casting insults at someone for being ineffective, when I could just as easily throw them back for only choosing to play classes because you find some way to make yourself seem as cool and powerful as possible. Please keep such comments to yourself, or as I've alluded to earlier, discuss them with me in person.


My problem with the choice you left up to me was that it was either the cleric or the rogue. You said that I had to play either one of them; that the "core party" was a must. I have some news for you that might startle you: The choice of what I play as is entirely up to me. You can choose to disallow that choice, at which point I'd ask your reasoning, and if you had any, you'd explain it to me. If you only left me with choices of classes that I didn't want to play as, I didn't have to continue involving myself in that group. So, it was my fault for pursuing your reasoning behind the cloistered cleric choice that caused you to be ousted as DM. However, as the DM at the time, you certainly must have realized that being a DM isn't just a chance to flex your ego, it's an agreement, no, a contract between the players and the DM for a mutually enjoyable experience, and I personally don't believe I would've enjoyed playing as either the cloistered cleric or the rogue, which is why I pushed so hard for your reasoning.

I apologize if my earnestness in wanting to enjoy my gaming experience caused you to think ill things about me, but that is totally your choice. I, on the otherhand, find it low to insult me on these boards, and that, in my eyes, you've shown how insecure you personally are, having to degrade me on the internet.

I have nothing against anyone that enjoys playing a cloistered cleric, nor anyone who uses it instead of the regular cleric. I just know that I doubt that I would enjoy playing as one, so if that's my only choice, you can count me out.

ZOMG

[ZOMGoubeaux]

I was going to start them at the same level, but they were against it, again saying that it would make them too weak. The whole thing made me feel that they were saying that they knew the campaign better than I did, which is partly why I said enough was enough.

Also, the reason that three of your four players spoke out about this is because you had already attempted this module before, during which we started at 6th level. The reason that it didn't work the first time is because you exploded often and physically threatend me. After I politely told you that if you hit me I'd return the favor, you calmed down, but I shouldn't have to warn you or try to keep you in line. And your reasoning for exploding? The players thought of ways around the defenses the enemies (read: you) had set up. So, next time, before you point fingers at others, take a look in the mirror. 9 times out of 10, it's a failure to view things in a way other than your personal viewpoint.

ZOMG

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Melkor, ZOMG, I'm going to close this thread now as you two are already skirting the edge of the no flaming other posters rules.