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Thread: RPG w/ vast customization
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2016-12-01, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2016
RPG w/ vast customization
I was wondering what are some good RPGs with a vast amount of customization and choice when creating and developing characters. It can be class-based like Pathfinder, D&D 3.5, or RIFTS or classless like Mutants and Masterminds, and most generic systems (GURPS, Savage Worlds, etc.). I know I listed several but I am looking for a few things in general:
1. Must have immense character customization.
2. Customization must go beyond just race, class, base stats, and gear. Throw in familiars, mounts, companions, feats, crafting choices, backgrounds, specializations, perks, etc.
3. Must be a game that is generally regarded as fun.
Any help?
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2016-12-01, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
Mutants and masterminds fits that quite well in my experience, if you can think of a character concept, you can build it in mutants & masterminds
The first rule of gaming, before you have even chosen the game is and always should be
HAVE FUN
(FUN being defined as it is in dwarf fortress)
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2016-12-01, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-12-02, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
Uhhh... Exalted 3rd edition? Each of the twenty-some skills have dozens of attendant Charms (standard feat/spell/power/whatever type specialization units) arranged in huge skill trees, essentially. Your character starts with 15 charms, and you can afford another every ~2 sessions. There's a lot more fluff than the games you mentioned, but if you leave it aside you're left with a generic superhuman/demigod-type. The main reason I mention it, though, is the sheer rangeof Charms that are available-- they're not just combat stuff, not even just combat/talking/mobility stuff. Bureaucracy has a Charm set every bit as deep as, say, Stealth. If you want a system to support really unconventional character roles...
Hill Giant Games
I make indie gaming books for you!Spoiler
STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.
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2016-12-02, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-12-02, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
Re: RPG w/ vast customization
So by "customization" you really mean "wide variety of very specific crunchy bits and bobs," right?
PAD - 357,549,260
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2016-12-02, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
Does it have to be a current production game, or are legacy products acceptable? If legacy games are considered...
RoleMaster.
No, it isn't "TableMaster", no it isn't too slow or too complex. Yes, it has a learning curve. Yes, you must be able to do arithmetic. Yes, fights can take a while. No, it isn't for everyone.
But it is for people that want 10 human "warrior types" at level 5 to have the ability to be 10 VERY different characters from both a thematic and mechanical basis. You know how Conan is different than Fafherd is different than Strum is different than Aragorn? And that difference is much more than fluff? RoleMaster accommodates all of these.
It is a class-based system (with scores of classes across the standard roles) with dozens of races/variants. It uses 10 attributes and then some derived attributes, and pretty much everything is driven by skills. There is a huge array of skills, encompassing all the standard dungeoneering types, but also with a lot of utility, professional, knowledge, militant, craft and whole-wide-world skills. And a lot of them are important. And very few things are just left up to the "skill monkey" to manage.
Spell lists exist, but they are different than DnD/Pathfinder. You learn from an array of lists, with each spell on the list tied together thematically, and each spell-casting class has access to dozens of spell lists. While there are always certain "standard" choices, you learn multiple lists and will find that 5 spellcasters of the same class at the same level will have very different options available to them. While DnD sort of does that, it generally seems to result in the same "optimized" spell library. Not so in RM.
So, massive customization, lots of post-creation development, nearly endless choice.
Cons: Old game, may have trouble finding resources. Undeserved reputation (IMO) that many people shed when they have the opportunity to play with an experienced GM/group. Might be too much choice for some people...in short, this game has a higher degree of "Need the right people to play" than many others.
- MLast edited by Mordar; 2016-12-02 at 05:36 PM.
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2016-12-02, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2016-12-02, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
For fantasy I like Anima: Beyond Fantasy. It's a class/level system similar to Rolemaster.
Characters have the following bits:
-Attributes (Strength, Dexterity, Agility, Constitution, Intelligence, Power, Willpower, Perception)
-Race (Human, Nephilim [human with a nonhuman soul], Sylvain [light elves], Jayan [three eyed giants], D'anjayni [easy to forget], Ebudan [angelic beings], Danish [beast-halflimgs], and Duk'zarist [dark elves]
-Advantages and Disadvantages
-Class (just a cost template) and level.
-Combat skills (attack and block/dodge)
-Combat Modules (ability to use weapons or techniques) and martial arts.
-Ki Powers and techniques, as well as Nemesis Powers if you have the supplement.
-Magic (including spells known [either bought individually or given by a path], Zeon [MP], Magical Accumulation [Zeon you can call up in a turn], and Magic Projection [ability to use magic]) as well as Metamagic if you're usually certain supplement.
-Summoning abilities (four skills, and runs off that Zeon)
-Psychic Powers (Psychic Points for buying and improving powers as well as keeping some free for flexibility, Psychic Projection)
-Secondary skills (mundane noncombat stuff mainly).
There's also equipment, but it's less important (except for maybe your weapon and armour). Oh, and if you're a summoner either be ready to pick what creatures you want to summon and/or have bound or pick some invocations you can pay the cost of.
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2016-12-03, 12:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2014
Re: RPG w/ vast customization
I know you mentioned it so you might have played it at some point, but GURPS. So much. You can stat up almost literally any character you can imagine due to its point but system and extremely customizable traits. It requires absolutely no pigeonholing your character or the actions they take into the system's constraints, ever. It really can do anything.
That said, that's also the main shortcoming of the game. By default, it's very rules-heavy, but it states in the book that you're not supposed to use all of the rules, just the ones that you think are important enough. The other minor flaw is that the point buy system isn't particularly well-balanced. But no GURPS game I've ever played has been optimization-heavy. When I GM, I don't even really set a concrete point limit, I just set a ballpark and make sure than no character will completely overshadow another. If you have munchkin players, this may be a different story.
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2016-12-03, 01:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
I think the shortcoming of GURPS is GM control, as there are so many supplements with so much stuff that the GM has to clearly define what the game is about and what is allowed and what not.
But what it allows is almost limitless and it all works together in the same system. So if you want to run a steampunk fantasy that happens after a nuclear holocaust with mutants, zombies and old pre holocaust tech then you can do that....want to add supers into the setting, easily done.
It's like a blocks where you build what you want.
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2016-12-03, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: RPG w/ vast customization
At the opposite end of the rules-weight spectrum, there's games like RISUS and FATE, where defining a character is as easy as writing things like "Barbarian Hero (4), Bear Shapeshifter (3), Pastry Chef (3)" on a piece of paper.
Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
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2016-12-03, 03:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: RPG w/ vast customization
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2016-12-03, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- In my library
Re: RPG w/ vast customization
The thing with GURPS is that it plays fine with just the core rules, until you start getting to TL9+, where it just doesn't have all the technology you need (and Ultra Tech is out of print), which is unfortunately where the game starts to excel, but where some advantages start becoming worthless (I'm looking at you Innate Attack). The way to run GURPS is to clearly define what books are allowed, for example the Ultra Tech and Space books, and keep it to a small number.
However, once you've got past that hurdle it just works. Especially at low points values (the corebook recommends 200CP, I recommend 100-150CP for most groups) there's not a lot you can do to be truly overpowered, especially if Exotic and Supernatural advantages are limited. I love GURPS optimisation, but to the point of 'can I build this character in only 100CP plus 50CP of disadvantages?'
I love GURPS to bits, which makes me annoyed that the person I know running it has added a bunch of weird houserules to character creation (I get free increases to my Attributes for my race, and then get a number of free background options varying by race? Just let me take a Racial Template and spend my points how I want!). Normally I'd sit down with a blank sheet, pick a racial template, then spend points to get core concept skills, and then buy advantages and extra skills as I flesh out my background.
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2016-12-03, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-12-03, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
Heck, there's both Erotic Art and Sex Appeal as skills. Also separate skills if you learnt karate in order to fight or as a combat sport (as I really did). Let's not forget there's separate skills for untrained kicks and punches, trained kicks and punches, and trained punches without kicks (respectively Brawling, Karate, and Boxing). I actually once got a bit of millage out of my character having been taught to fight unarmed (Warhammer Warrior Priest of Sigmar in a WW2-esque setting, he had been taught boxing as part of his training) rather than having just picked it up.
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2016-12-03, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
I think the mindset you need to go into GURPS with isn't, "Let's read over and carefully consider each skill as a potential option", but rather, "Let's look for skills that suit the character concept I'm going for".
The bottom line is it's there if you need it; while the cloak rules might seem ridiculous if you're going into it expecting a space game, they become a lot more important if playing a game revolving around 16th century Europe.
@AnonymousWizard
Warhammer priests beating Nazis to death with their bare hands sounds like great fun.Last edited by thedanster7000; 2016-12-03 at 09:36 AM.
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2016-12-03, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
My friend had me attempt to make a character, as we were trying to gear up for a game that never materialized, and there really are options for everything. Those are three skills (or 4 I guess) that just stuck out to me to this day. The game's skills, Advantages, and Disadvantages were a bit overwhelming for someone who didn't know what to expect.
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2016-12-03, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
Even then you can end up with 30+ skills, the official character sheet really needs more space (I once tried to make a 200CP sci-fi diplomat, and ran out of space for skills before I even got onto their personal quirks). It's the reason why I prefer Fate, it expects me and the players to agree what skills are important (and skills are broad enough that Computers covers all of the GURPS computer skills, like Fight covers all the weapon skills).
@AnonymousWizard
Warhammer priests beating Nazis to death with their bare hands sounds like great fun.
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2016-12-03, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
Yeah, I usually have a separate skills sheet, and they're practically mandatory for wizards.
See, that's precisely why I value GURPS' complexity so much. You can be a master of the blade trained specifically in traditional Kenjutsu and possessing a unique fighting strategy that results in a knack for dismembering their foes, rather than some bloke with x Fight skill whose abilities will be matched exactly by the next bloke that comes along with x Fight skill.
I can see the appeal of simplicity and generalisation depending on the game though, and am a fan of Open Legend (which is completely free, I recommend checking it out), which I find is an elegant midpoint between the two.
That sounds like great fun, and I have a sudden urge to run something Warhammer-based. It's been too long since I've gamed in the Warhammer setting, probably due to the unnecessary, unpleasant, and unwanted appearance of Age of Sigmar.
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2016-12-03, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
GURPS is a system I have wanted to use for a while now.
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2016-12-03, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
Yeah, if you looking for raw, mechanically enforced customization options I am pretty sure the answer is:
GURPS[/THREAD]
However if you are also interested in softer customization options* than I think FATE and its aspect system is worth a look. M&M is hard on the mechanics side, but soft on the flavouring for something in between. And those are the ones I know enough about to comment confidently on.
*By soft I mean: Here is a guideline, apply it however you want.
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2016-12-03, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
Exalted 3e was mentioned upthread, but I also have to give its 2e incarnation a shout-out. Even with the Scroll of Errata (which is pretty much essential), it's not the most balanced game (3e is much, much better in that particular regard) but if you're looking for pure, structured customizability, it's more than you'll get in any non-generic game, and more than you'll get in several of those, too. (I'd put it somewhere below GURPS and above Mutants & Masterminds in character variety potential.) And the real big thing is that the setting supports all of it at once - GURPS has more mechanical ability to emulate just about anything you can think of, but Exalted has done all the work of making an extremely well-crafted, cohesive world where its metaphorical tons of character options can all be brought to bear in the same game, whereas GURPS (as a generic system) requires you to make your own setting and justify everything for yourself, usually to the point where that vast sea of options is shaved down to two or three books' worth in practice.
The main (if not only) advantage 2e Exalted has over 3e Exalted is that 3e is pretty new and doesn't have nearly as much supplemental material as 2e. You can play just about any kind of Solar Exalt you can dream of, and that's as wide a variety as the previous poster made it sound, but that just scratches the surface of the true depths of the setting. In 2e, you could play just as wide a variety of Solar Exalted, champions of the sun with supernaturally perfect capabilities in whatever area they choose, but you could also play: the Terrestrials, the elemental demigods who currently control the world and specialize in supernatural pacts of teamwork and brotherhood; the Lunars, mystical shapeshifters who take the forms of those whose hearts they eat; the Sidereals, heavenly weavers and overseers of fate and masters of cosmic kung fu; the Abyssals, servants of the titans who created and rule the Underworld; the gods, elementals, ghosts, and demons themselves; and so many more varieties of being, each one with just as much potential individual variety as the Solar Exalted have.
Exalted 2e deserves a spot on the shelf of any RPG enthusiast who values character variety and strong worldbuilding. And it's getting ever cheaper to fill up on books from, what with most people having converted to 3e by now.Call me Remedy or Celia, whichever you prefer.
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2016-12-03, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
Hill Giant Games
I make indie gaming books for you!Spoiler
STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.
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2016-12-04, 07:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
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2016-12-04, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
On the downside, it's main weakness is the significant disconnect between the mechanics (heavily combat focused), and the expected playstyle (more puzzle and roleplay focused). I love Anima, but the designers really need to pull together and either bump the inherent importance of Secondary Skills, or rework the game so combat isn't as likely to make you unable to fight for a few days (especially for mages).
I was trying to focus on just the corebook though, as I don't own any of the supplements, just been able to have a glance.
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2016-12-04, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
The designer. Singular. Anima is mainly Carlos' work (I believe the only major exception was the Psychic powers chapter in Arcana Exxet).
Core Exxet (not released in English because of FFG) and the supplements do help giving secondary skills more uses. But yes, even with just the Core Rulebook, you already get a ton of options.
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2016-12-04, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-12-05, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: RPG w/ vast customization
That's still not why we don't like it - it's more of a case of the sheer quantity of number crunching both in character creation and the game as a whole causing it to run slowly, and not giving us much we care about in return because things like vast customization via lots of separate bits and bobs isn't that valuable to us. If that's what's being looked for though? Well, there's a reason it's the first recommendation I made.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2016-12-05, 03:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
Re: RPG w/ vast customization
Ahem.
2e allowed you to play Fair Folk.
Fair Folk can start the game at more or less any power level - from sub-par mook to replacement GM - and can do it with a fair amount of style and customization. The raw madness is a bonus.
Safety Blanket
Creation is full of terrifying, dangerous things. Exalts, boredom, cold iron halberds, carnivorous lilacs, undead armies, and worse. Since the Fair Folk are in no wise responsible for most of these, they have been forced to learn caution as a result. This is an extremely unpleasant emotion that resides somewhere near the spleen, and often prevents the kind and innocent Raksha from demonstrating their glory to the world. Fortunately, a still nameless Fair Folk devised a means by which this superfluous state of mind could be discarded, weaving a Blanket from the wanderings of a score of children (usually benign growths that are most common in Creation's cities, and only rarely try to eat you alive in non-metaphorical ways).
The proud owner of a Blanket can ignore danger and indulge in whatever impulses might appeal, with one limitation. When the consequences of any actions threaten the owner, they simply need to wrap themselves in the Blanket and are instantly transported to a safe hiding space where nothing bad can reach them. Care is advised when peeking out from under the Blanket, as gravity, wolves, and relatives have been known to linger nearby and wait for a chance to pounce.
Most Blankets are woven from imperfect dreams, and thus are somewhat flawed - this typically manifests as a terrible beast that lurks within the safe spaces of the Blanket, hungrily waiting to devour any toes, notions, or treasures that might stick out. Sleeping within the Blanket is therefore not recommended, unless one has brought sufficient offerings to sate the creature. Candy and illustrated texts depicting the heroic deeds of great cats are especially effective.
Mechanics
1-dot Chancel
By wrapping yourself in the Blanket, the Chancel is activated and you end up in a safe Waypoint. Whatever dangers are present ouside are free to try to affect the Blanket itself, which is an artifact and so very hard to damage - you're not there anymore. Even if it's destroyed, you're simply transported into Pure Chaos, which is unpleasant but not ultimately dangerous (if you're a Fair Folk). This is an extremely basic starting item.
Tome of Stellar Travel
An apparently harmless volume describing the adventures of a glorious hero, the Tome is either an insidious trap or a startling revelation. As the reader discovers the tales it contains and is drawn into the engrossing narrative, they find that the world beyond the Tome no longer corresponds exactly to what they were taught. Certain vegetables take on a poisonous hue that only the reader can perceive. Their mentors and parents let their masks slip and show themselves as the alien beings they truly are. Simple sticks and dolls they have been trained to ignore take on momentous power and identity, becoming weapons and allies against the madness of Creation.
Most are forced to set aside the Tome before they can get deep enough, as their actions are decried as mad. Some, however, hold on to the stories of Spiff's life, and can draw upon them to manipulate the world as it truly is. They grow bold, often devising flying devices and projectile weapons, and can help others see the truth of the Tome. a very few manage to go further before the Wyld Hunt catches them, and warn those they meet of terrible dangers from outside the lie drawn across Creation. The real gods and their plans for this intricate cage are well guarded, however, and the Tome's warnings are usually followed by utter devastation as portions of the world are purged in an attempt to maintain the deception.
By now you have read enough - or perhaps too much - and what you know will forever be slightly flawed. Will you dare go further?
Mechanics
The Tome is a focus for a Principle of Worlds. A low quality version will perform minor changes to reality focused around the reader. Higher quality makes the changes effective and nearly compulsory for everyone in the vicinity. The highest quality possible will result in the local patch of space being reduced to molten bedrock very quickly - hope you have a Blanket! This can be created by a starting character with minimal investment in charms or resources.
Yes, both items above are inspired by other things, and it's possible to make many other, very different things. Typically less powerful - the point here is that you can get this far with a small investment, so you can do a lot of customization!