Dragon Age VI: Siege Harder

[Inarius]

Honestly I think Inquisition did a fairly good job of framing magic as something thats volatile yet not so volatile that you need something as extreme as the Circles to keep people safe from magic. The Avvar and Dalish both seem to function fairly well while also giving their mages a fair amount of freedom and even a certain amount of authority and power.

The problem is we're also saddled with all the stupid stuff from DA2 in regards to magic which was specifically put in due to there being a time crunch. They didn't have enough time to make Templars sympathetic so they went and threw in an over the top number of insane mages to make the mages be less sympathetic.

[Lord Raziere]

From what we know their mages are still pretty strictly controlled except those at the very tippy top of the pyramid. Templars might not be strictly necessary, but given the stupidity of the average Dragon Age mage, some form of control structure is.

Also we're still talking about the Tevinter that corrupted heaven and doomed the world to eternal conflict? The ones that basically created the entire conflict of the series? That Tevinter? That's the Tevinter we're talking about that where mages don't need supervision? I'm just making sure we're all on the same page here.

Yes. That Tevinter.

but I'm not saying that they're aren't or shouldn't be regulated.

I'm just saying that blowing up countries is an exaggeration given the prime example of evil mage society has somehow not only failed to blow themselves up into non-existence they've survived multiple Blights trying to kill them, everyone else hating them and the Qunari at their doorstep. they have survived better than most of the dwarven underground. they've survived better than the elves whom they took all the magic jerkery from. you'd think an empire so hated by everyone and so supposedly self defeating would be straight up dead by now, left to be spoken only of in history books but here it is. and cultures don't survive so much unless they got something right going for them, or they'd be discarded for something that does work.

at the very least, you'd think you'd have a big land of Qun-worshipping humans where Tevinter used to be if the Qun truly presented a better option for life and safety, but apparently the Tevinters would rather have the ambitious blood-magic using devils they know ruling them than the fascist oppressive ones they don't.

[Anteros]

Yes. That Tevinter.

but I'm not saying that they're aren't or shouldn't be regulated.

I'm just saying that blowing up countries is an exaggeration given the prime example of evil mage society has somehow not only failed to blow themselves up into non-existence they've survived multiple Blights trying to kill them, everyone else hating them and the Qunari at their doorstep. they have survived better than most of the dwarven underground. they've survived better than the elves whom they took all the magic jerkery from. you'd think an empire so hated by everyone and so supposedly self defeating would be straight up dead by now, left to be spoken only of in history books but here it is. and cultures don't survive so much unless they got something right going for them, or they'd be discarded for something that does work.

at the very least, you'd think you'd have a big land of Qun-worshipping humans where Tevinter used to be if the Qun truly presented a better option for life and safety, but apparently the Tevinters would rather have the ambitious blood-magic using devils they know ruling them than the fascist oppressive ones they don't.

Obviously if you want to apply any kind of common sense or logic to the setting then some mages will be fine without supervision. The problem is that writers need to try to cram all these world shattering events into the span of a few years to keep the games relevant to each other. The result is a bunch of mages who are complete idiots who destroy everything around them constantly, but only in the parts of the setting we're actually observing. The writers desperately needs to lay off of the "crazy mage ruins everything" trope if they want people to take the whole "mages should be free" angle seriously. I'm sure most mages in the setting would lead peaceful lives, but you can't have me play through 50 scenarios where a crazy mage kills everyone around them over the span of 3 games and still expect me to buy into the idea that they don't need supervision.

[Keltest]

Yes. That Tevinter.

but I'm not saying that they're aren't or shouldn't be regulated.

I'm just saying that blowing up countries is an exaggeration given the prime example of evil mage society has somehow not only failed to blow themselves up into non-existence they've survived multiple Blights trying to kill them, everyone else hating them and the Qunari at their doorstep. they have survived better than most of the dwarven underground. they've survived better than the elves whom they took all the magic jerkery from. you'd think an empire so hated by everyone and so supposedly self defeating would be straight up dead by now, left to be spoken only of in history books but here it is. and cultures don't survive so much unless they got something right going for them, or they'd be discarded for something that does work.

at the very least, you'd think you'd have a big land of Qun-worshipping humans where Tevinter used to be if the Qun truly presented a better option for life and safety, but apparently the Tevinters would rather have the ambitious blood-magic using devils they know ruling them than the fascist oppressive ones they don't.

As I recall, the only reason the Qunari retreated the first time was because their qun converts were so hideously mistreated by the Andrasteans in any land where the two coexisted that they simply didn't think it was worth continuing to try and occupy the land yet.

If you take Iron Bull at his word, the Qunari offensive against Tevinter so far has been a sort of casual reminder that theyre still there.

[Lord Raziere]

As I recall, the only reason the Qunari retreated the first time was because their qun converts were so hideously mistreated by the Andrasteans in any land where the two coexisted that they simply didn't think it was worth continuing to try and occupy the land yet.

If you take Iron Bull at his word, the Qunari offensive against Tevinter so far has been a sort of casual reminder that theyre still there.

The Qunari would love to have everyone believe they are so invincible as to conquer Thedas at their leisure. I will say it once more: the Qunari are nothing if not masters of deceiving themselves. It wasn't the Qunari that successfully did anything to help solve any of these crises aside from random lone agents that can easily be missed or passed over, so screw them.

[Dienekes]

Honestly I think Inquisition did a fairly good job of framing magic as something thats volatile yet not so volatile that you need something as extreme as the Circles to keep people safe from magic. The Avvar and Dalish both seem to function fairly well while also giving their mages a fair amount of freedom and even a certain amount of authority and power.

The problem is we're also saddled with all the stupid stuff from DA2 in regards to magic which was specifically put in due to there being a time crunch. They didn't have enough time to make Templars sympathetic so they went and threw in an over the top number of insane mages to make the mages be less sympathetic.

Inquisition is the game that revealed the elves were utterly dominated by a cabal of corrupt powerful mages for centuries that proclaimed themselves gods and required an actual apocalypse to break their control over the world. While modern practices of the Avvars and Dalish are still ruled by mages but have the checks of Templar regularly checking up on nearby territories to make certain no mages cause too much trouble. And the elves still have a practice of abandoning their mages in the wilderness so they can die/join a circle if there is more than two per tribe.

But you do strike upon the central issue with the Mage problem in DA2. Ultimately, the question of what to do about mages is a systemic question. But we are not presented with a story that frames the question on checks and balances. We are given a story about an evil institution and a handful of lunatics.

[Rynjin]

From what we know their mages are still pretty strictly controlled except those at the very tippy top of the pyramid. Templars might not be strictly necessary, but given the stupidity of the average Dragon Age mage, some form of control structure is.

Also we're still talking about the Tevinter that corrupted heaven and doomed the world to eternal conflict? The ones that basically created the entire conflict of the series? That Tevinter? That's the Tevinter we're talking about that where mages don't need supervision? I'm just making sure we're all on the same page here.

Thing is, nobody knows of that's even true or not. It's just everybody's best guess because the Tevinter are DA's boogeymen.

As for mages causing death when uncontrolled, that's not even true. They usually cause widespread devastation when untrained. There's a difference between the two.

Requiring training for mages is sensible and defendable. Sentencing them to life imprisonment and slavery for being born is not, and has directly led to more deaths than any theoretical uber-Abomination.

[Morty]

Retreading the same argument for the umpteenth time aside, this did make me wonder if I want to finish Inquisition for the third time. I started playing a Qunari warrior, specialized as a Templar, who sided with Templars and was going to romance Dorian. Sadly, I just got sort of bogged down in the vast areas and pointless quests.

Also, the fact that Qunari (or Vashoth, if we want to get technical) were added late in development is very apparent. There's several armor models that just don't fit them and revert to generic ones, and weapons don't seem to scale up to them - so one-handed axes look like toys in their hands. I do have to give Inquisition props for making weapon/shield fun and dynamic... or at least as fun and dynamic as Inquisition combat can get. But it still beats using it in Origins and DA2, where it boiled down to "stand in front of your party and poke feebly at enemies".

And while the Templar specialization sort of lots its teeth mechanically - I miss being able to just straight-up silence mages and demons - I did like talking to Ser and Cullen about it.

[lord_khaine]

Requiring training for mages is sensible and defendable. Sentencing them to life imprisonment and slavery for being born is not, and has directly led to more deaths than any theoretical uber-Abomination.

Do we have any actual head-count for how much killing the average abomination manages to accomplish?

Though yeah, i do think its responsible to not allow mages out on their own before they have managed to complete a harrowing.
The danger to everyone else is simply to big. The mages does have a certain right to freedom. But everyone else also has a right
to not be burned alive, just because said mage allows a rage demon inside his head.

Of course its at the same time also a major problem that a skilled mage (at least in Dragon Age 1) is a walking army.
Who rather easily could turn into a the tyrant ruler of any remote village they chose to pick.
So i honestly also think that the phylacteries are reasonable. Those and the templars are kinda needed to hold mages accountable for their actions.

[Dienekes]

Thing is, nobody knows of that's even true or not. It's just everybody's best guess because the Tevinter are DA's boogeymen.

As for mages causing death when uncontrolled, that's not even true. They usually cause widespread devastation when untrained. There's a difference between the two.

Requiring training for mages is sensible and defendable. Sentencing them to life imprisonment and slavery for being born is not, and has directly led to more deaths than any theoretical uber-Abomination.

I mean, the one real interaction with Tevinter mages we had in DA:O was a slaver gathering elves specifically to be used for blood sacrifices back in Tevinter. That very certainly is mages causing death when uncontrolled.

Now that doesn’t mean every uncontrolled Mage will cause death and destruction, not by any means. But claiming that uncontrolled mages don’t cause death is pretty blatantly wrong. As Tevinter mages and the old Elven gods ran on murder.

Now the argument that the enslavement of mages has lead to more destruction than uncontrolled mages is one that I’m not sure about. Certainly in the games we deal with the negative after effects of Mage slavery much more. But in the lore, I don’t know. After all, Solas freely admits to creating one apocalypse and is currently trying to start another. They are at least partially responsible for Blights. And Corypheus, had he won, would have corrupted the world and destroyed quite a lot. I suppose one of the big differences is that in actual gameplay the negative consequences of the Circles are small scale enough for the abominations to come kill things only for our hero to mop them up. But the uncontrolled mages have such grand catastrophic plans, the player stops them before they can cause all that much.

[Anteros]

Thing is, nobody knows of that's even true or not. It's just everybody's best guess because the Tevinter are DA's boogeymen.

As for mages causing death when uncontrolled, that's not even true. They usually cause widespread devastation when untrained. There's a difference between the two.

Requiring training for mages is sensible and defendable. Sentencing them to life imprisonment and slavery for being born is not, and has directly led to more deaths than any theoretical uber-Abomination.

That's not even true. The Tevinter mages that caused the blights were trained. Solas is trained. Anders is trained. Merril is trained. Most of the largest disasters we've seen are directly the result of well trained mages, not the fumbling of amateurs.

When someone is dangerous to those around them through no fault of their own you still have to quarantine them. This applies to the real world as well. It's sad, but it's a fact of life. It's why we aren't all dealing with Smallpox right now.

[Douglas]

That's not even true. The Tevinter mages that caused the blights were trained. Solas is trained. Anders is trained. Merril is trained. Most of the largest disasters we've seen are directly the result of well trained mages, not the fumbling of amateurs.

When someone is dangerous to those around them through no fault of their own you still have to quarantine them. This applies to the real world as well. It's sad, but it's a fact of life. It's why we aren't all dealing with Smallpox right now.

And each of those disasters was the result of an intentional action by the mage or mages that caused it. Some of them were not the intended result of the action, whether due to a mistake, interference, bad judgement, or unanticipated surprise factors, but the action itself was intentional, and that is something they can reasonably be considered at fault for.

Untrained mages do damage on a smaller scale, but they often do it by accident, and if a demon gets involved it can still be quite significant. For example, Connor in Redcliffe in Origins.

An untrained mage needs to be trained and to have a competent force on hand to deal with any accidents, regardless of the mage's intentions. A trained mage's danger level depends greatly on the mage's intentions, goals, morals, and judgement, and can vary from catastrophic (causing the Blights) to miraculous (game protagonist stopping a Blight and other such large scale heroics).

[Lord Raziere]

there is at least two untrained mages that get possessed by Pride and Desire demons, one in Origins, the other in DA 2. entire sideplots about them even. Origin one is the entire Redcliffe story and the other is like, a kid you help escape from Kirkwall. both are kids though.

those werewolves in Origins were a mages curse, if I remember, but that guy was trained.

the real problem with the Templars, if they are really necessary, is how enforceable is the Circle of Magi really? because this is medieval technology, and its explicitly stated mages can't just teleport long distances in this universe.

because sure I can buy the Templars or Mages finding young mages in major cities and known towns, taking them in and such, but the world is big and there are probably isolated towns out there where templars haven't been to much, where the Church of Andraste doesn't reach, mages from the wilderness and so on, and these have shown to exist in some capacity. yet those apostate mages far from civilization aren't the ones wrecking things on a big scale, even though they are in dangerous territories full of beasts and often haunted by demons possessing things. its only when mages get to civilization and the politics involved that they start wrecking things for everyone.

probably because as long as you don't put magic and politics together, its not a problem, because the people who want power are probably the same people who care about politics. Morrigan wasn't the best person in the world by a long shot, but she never went crazy with power or needed to be regulated, know why? because she doesn't care about politics. Anders is a better person but he did all that crazy stuff because he was so politically charged with "mage freedom! down with the templars!" stuff that he ended up screwing things up for everyone.

so perhaps, just keep mages out of politics. which is a good rule of thumb for any world involving superpowers: keep the superpowered people out of becoming politicians, it never ends well.

[Keltest]

there is at least two untrained mages that get possessed by Pride and Desire demons, one in Origins, the other in DA 2. entire sideplots about them even. Origin one is the entire Redcliffe story and the other is like, a kid you help escape from Kirkwall. both are kids though.

those werewolves in Origins were a mages curse, if I remember, but that guy was trained.

the real problem with the Templars, if they are really necessary, is how enforceable is the Circle of Magi really? because this is medieval technology, and its explicitly stated mages can't just teleport long distances in this universe.

because sure I can buy the Templars or Mages finding young mages in major cities and known towns, taking them in and such, but the world is big and there are probably isolated towns out there where templars haven't been to much, where the Church of Andraste doesn't reach, mages from the wilderness and so on, and these have shown to exist in some capacity. yet those apostate mages far from civilization aren't the ones wrecking things on a big scale, even though they are in dangerous territories full of beasts and often haunted by demons possessing things. its only when mages get to civilization and the politics involved that they start wrecking things for everyone.

probably because as long as you don't put magic and politics together, its not a problem, because the people who want power are probably the same people who care about politics. Morrigan wasn't the best person in the world by a long shot, but she never went crazy with power or needed to be regulated, know why? because she doesn't care about politics. Anders is a better person but he did all that crazy stuff because he was so politically charged with "mage freedom! down with the templars!" stuff that he ended up screwing things up for everyone.

so perhaps, just keep mages out of politics. which is a good rule of thumb for any world involving superpowers: keep the superpowered people out of becoming politicians, it never ends well.

Its either Antiva or Rivain that basically ignores the circles and templars and treats its hedge mages as wise (wo)men. However, even they don't leave them completely unsupervised. Among the Avvar and Dalish, the entire community basically takes on the role of the Templars, watching the mages for bad signs.

Having said that, outside of whichever non-templar country it was, basically every community has at least one Templar assigned to it. They aren't always present, but they do at least stop by weekly, and carry news and such.

[Anteros]

there is at least two untrained mages that get possessed by Pride and Desire demons, one in Origins, the other in DA 2. entire sideplots about them even. Origin one is the entire Redcliffe story and the other is like, a kid you help escape from Kirkwall. both are kids though.

those werewolves in Origins were a mages curse, if I remember, but that guy was trained.

the real problem with the Templars, if they are really necessary, is how enforceable is the Circle of Magi really? because this is medieval technology, and its explicitly stated mages can't just teleport long distances in this universe.

because sure I can buy the Templars or Mages finding young mages in major cities and known towns, taking them in and such, but the world is big and there are probably isolated towns out there where templars haven't been to much, where the Church of Andraste doesn't reach, mages from the wilderness and so on, and these have shown to exist in some capacity. yet those apostate mages far from civilization aren't the ones wrecking things on a big scale, even though they are in dangerous territories full of beasts and often haunted by demons possessing things. its only when mages get to civilization and the politics involved that they start wrecking things for everyone.

probably because as long as you don't put magic and politics together, its not a problem, because the people who want power are probably the same people who care about politics. Morrigan wasn't the best person in the world by a long shot, but she never went crazy with power or needed to be regulated, know why? because she doesn't care about politics. Anders is a better person but he did all that crazy stuff because he was so politically charged with "mage freedom! down with the templars!" stuff that he ended up screwing things up for everyone.

so perhaps, just keep mages out of politics. which is a good rule of thumb for any world involving superpowers: keep the superpowered people out of becoming politicians, it never ends well.

What makes Anders a better person than Morrigan? Because he's friendly and she's not? He's more likable, but he's by no means a better person. At all. You can be likable and evil. For all her casual indifference towards the suffering of others Morrigan doesn't actively go out of her way to hurt anyone. You'd never catch her blowing up a building full of innocent people even if she thought it might accomplish her goals.

[Rynjin]

The issue with Anders is that it's not a compelling story in part because it's not even really him. Anders IS a good person. Anders/Justice/Vengeance/What the **** ever is not. His personality undergoes a complete and total shift after the merge; he's a completely different being from the component parts.

[Lord Raziere]

What makes Anders a better person than Morrigan? Because he's friendly and she's not? He's more likable, but he's by no means a better person. At all. You can be likable and evil. For all her casual indifference towards the suffering of others Morrigan doesn't actively go out of her way to hurt anyone. You'd never catch her blowing up a building full of innocent people even if she thought it might accomplish her goals.

Fair point.

But Anders did more than just blow up a chantry. he was a physician. he healed people. until that one act of extremism, you'd barely have any hint of what he was going to do, and most of the time he'd be doing things on Hawke's, the players orders. the healing does not erase the one act- there is no washing that away- but in all playthroughs of Origins, I ended up not using Morrigan much and detected Zevran as being charming but evil, so she Zevran and Sten ended up being the most evil people who I kept away from the action. Morrigan's attitude simply does lend itself to helping others well. guess what you do in RPGs? all the time?

its that first impressions thing. Morrigan makes a bad first impression, but Anders makes a much better one. if you were to show their introductions to someone who never played before, they'd never guess that Anders would be the worse person of the two.

that still doesn't change the fact that Morrigan is probably not the best person in the world, and controls herself without needing people to watch over her- the only other person who did keep her in control is another mage and someone who is worse than her because of the body-snatching stuff Flemeth does (who is her own brand of horribleness). so if someone like Morrigan can do it, why can't these other mages do it? again, politics. Morrigan has no stake or care for such things, but Anders certainly did, as well as the Kirkwall circle, and Solas wanting the worlds to merge is certainly wide scale enough to count as political, while the Tevinter Magi? all hold political office the redcliffe boy? his magic was hidden due to politics. all the in story examples of mages screwing things up have largely been because of politics and magic mixing badly.

thus stop giving mages political office/power. they're already powerful enough because they can manipulate the cosmic forces of reality, why give them a second way to corrupt themselves?

[Giggling Ghast]

Do we have any actual head-count for how much killing the average abomination manages to accomplish?

Depending on the demon doing the possessing, the death toll produced by one abomination can be quite high. Meredith’s sister, for instance, killed over 70 people, including their parents.

[Keltest]

Depending on the demon doing the possessing, the death toll produced by one abomination can be quite high. Meredith’s sister, for instance, killed over 70 people, including their parents.

And Connor will kill everybody in Redcliff if the Warden doesn't specifically step in to stop him when they first arrive in Redcliff.

[Dienekes]

Fair point.

But Anders did more than just blow up a chantry. he was a physician. he healed people. until that one act of extremism, you'd barely have any hint of what he was going to do, and most of the time he'd be doing things on Hawke's, the players orders. the healing does not erase the one act- there is no washing that away- but in all playthroughs of Origins, I ended up not using Morrigan much and detected Zevran as being charming but evil, so she Zevran and Sten ended up being the most evil people who I kept away from the action. Morrigan's attitude simply does lend itself to helping others well. guess what you do in RPGs? all the time?

its that first impressions thing. Morrigan makes a bad first impression, but Anders makes a much better one. if you were to show their introductions to someone who never played before, they'd never guess that Anders would be the worse person of the two.

that still doesn't change the fact that Morrigan is probably not the best person in the world, and controls herself without needing people to watch over her- the only other person who did keep her in control is another mage and someone who is worse than her because of the body-snatching stuff Flemeth does (who is her own brand of horribleness). so if someone like Morrigan can do it, why can't these other mages do it? again, politics. Morrigan has no stake or care for such things, but Anders certainly did, as well as the Kirkwall circle, and Solas wanting the worlds to merge is certainly wide scale enough to count as political, while the Tevinter Magi? all hold political office the redcliffe boy? his magic was hidden due to politics. all the in story examples of mages screwing things up have largely been because of politics and magic mixing badly.

thus stop giving mages political office/power. they're already powerful enough because they can manipulate the cosmic forces of reality, why give them a second way to corrupt themselves?

Interesting premise, but, how?

This is a pseudo-medieval world. Political power can come from physical power pretty readily. Hell, political power often originates from physical power. Why were Loghain and Maric politically powerful? Because they kicked a bunch of asses in the revolution, and all else being equal someone having magic will have an advantage in the physically powerful department.

In order to stop a character from having political power, when they have the ability to reshape the cosmos, you have to set up a system to force them from not being able to just take power. And we're back to Mage subjugation.

[Lord Raziere]

Interesting premise, but, how?

This is a pseudo-medieval world. Political power can come from physical power pretty readily. Hell, political power often originates from physical power. Why were Loghain and Maric politically powerful? Because they kicked a bunch of asses in the revolution, and all else being equal someone having magic will have an advantage in the physically powerful department.

In order to stop a character from having political power, when they have the ability to reshape the cosmos, you have to set up a system to force them from not being able to just take power. And we're back to Mage subjugation.

Dragon Age already has mage subjugation. can't do anything about the system already in place.

though I'd say its simple: establish international international accords that mage leaders are not viable to recognized as a politically viable foreign power. that mages are socially the same as Grey Wardens in that they can't hold land or titles. (and y'know what happened in Awakening? your Grey warden screws up ruling Amaranthine either way, so there is a good reason why Grey Wardens don't rule things either: they operate on a very utilitarian, ends justify the means morality when dealing with the Blight and cannot operate like a politician with all the nuances and subtleties that implies, and Anders was there to, so its arguable that they were inspired by the Wardens methods.) If Grey Wardens can be successfully socially barred from power, why can't mages? nothing stops Grey Wardens from killing kings and becoming the new ruler either, but you don't see them doing that.

[Keltest]

Dragon Age already has mage subjugation. can't do anything about the system already in place.

though I'd say its simple: establish international international accords that mage leaders are not viable to recognized as a politically viable foreign power. that mages are socially the same as Grey Wardens in that they can't hold land or titles. (and y'know what happened in Awakening? your Grey warden screws up ruling Amaranthine either way, so there is a good reason why Grey Wardens don't rule things either: they operate on a very utilitarian, ends justify the means morality when dealing with the Blight and cannot operate like a politician with all the nuances and subtleties that implies, and Anders was there to, so its arguable that they were inspired by the Wardens methods.) If Grey Wardens can be successfully socially barred from power, why can't mages? nothing stops Grey Wardens from killing kings and becoming the new ruler either, but you don't see them doing that.

Um, the Grey Wardens were banished from Ferelden for trying to do exactly that, so...

Also, you don't screw up ruling Amaranthine? I mean, you *can* choose to do so, but its just as possible to turn it into a well off and prosperous county.

[Lord Raziere]

Also, you don't screw up ruling Amaranthine? I mean, you *can* choose to do so, but its just as possible to turn it into a well off and prosperous county.

if so, how to do so is a mystery to me, and I don't care enough about Awakening to try. Its not exactly something I'd replay, since its choices are so limited.

another thing to consider: how successful are the Templars at containing the mages REALLY? They couldn't do anything to prevent the crisis in the mage tower, they mishandled the mage situation in Kirkwall and went rogue in Inquisition and gets corrupted by red lyrium if the protagonist doesn't go for them. not a single templar was there to prevent the redcliffe problem, I didn't see any templars helping with the stupid werewolves, they get hit with the useless police trope whenever a plot mage rears its ugly head. they are only useful when they are on the protagonists side/the protagonist is on their side, which isn't very useful.

also that there is admittance that Templars don't see mages as people and are taught unquestioning loyalty to the Chantry and so on. even if they are needed, they could stand to treat mages better than they do.

[Keltest]

if so, how to do so is a mystery to me, and I don't care enough about Awakening to try. Its not exactly something I'd replay, since its choices are so limited.

another thing to consider: how successful are the Templars at containing the mages REALLY? They couldn't do anything to prevent the crisis in the mage tower, they mishandled the mage situation in Kirkwall and went rogue in Inquisition and gets corrupted by red lyrium if the protagonist doesn't go for them. not a single templar was there to prevent the redcliffe problem, I didn't see any templars helping with the stupid werewolves, they get hit with the useless police trope whenever a plot mage rears its ugly head. they are only useful when they are on the protagonists side/the protagonist is on their side, which isn't very useful.

also that there is admittance that Templars don't see mages as people and are taught unquestioning loyalty to the Chantry and so on. even if they are needed, they could stand to treat mages better than they do.

Patrol the farms over the city, fully upgrade Vigil's Keep, then choose to save the city from the Darkspawn. Things suck in the immediate short term, but it bounces back quickly and does well.

Anyway, the reason the templars fail so much is because the times when they succeed are boring and therefore not what the story focuses on. Listen to Sera or Minave for a bit and they tell you about templars who protect mages from angry mobs. Side with the templars and then actually look at the war table missions and you see that they are a significant part of why mages are not simply killed as children. Talk to Wynne in Origins and she tells you about how the templars were a comforting presence to pretty much all the mages who didn't chafe in general principal at being restrained in any way.

Until the Mage Rebellion, Meredith was an outlier in how she dealt with mages, to the point where the Seekers of Truth didn't even really believe the stories of templar abuse until directly confronted with the reality when Anders happened.

[Lord Raziere]

Okay, but if the Mages who want to be free are in the minority, then what are you to do with the faction of mages that do want to be free? like it or not there is a political faction of magi that to be free of their situation and consider it a gilded cage they don't want to be apart of. if you just continue the current situation with them, they're clearly going to cause trouble no matter what, what would you do to make sure that minority of mages cooperates rather giving them incentive to start Mage War 2 or another Ferelden tower fiasco or something? because sure you can just say that the Templars killing them is their design if it comes to that, but preventing them from doing that in the first place so that the freedom faction can be more cooperative seems like it would be a step up.

[Keltest]

Okay, but if the Mages who want to be free are in the minority, then what are you to do with the faction of mages that do want to be free? like it or not there is a political faction of magi that to be free of their situation and consider it a gilded cage they don't want to be apart of. if you just continue the current situation with them, they're clearly going to cause trouble no matter what, what would you do to make sure that minority of mages cooperates rather giving them incentive to start Mage War 2 or another Ferelden tower fiasco or something? because sure you can just say that the Templars killing them is their design if it comes to that, but preventing them from doing that in the first place so that the freedom faction can be more cooperative seems like it would be a step up.

Im not sure I understand the question. Why do you need to "do" anything with them? Theyre already in quarantine. As long as they aren't trying to break it, leave them be. Yeah theyre ticked off at the quarantine, but past a certain point you cant actually do anything about it. It sucks a bit, but the metaphysics of the setting have thus far not shown to allow for a much better solution.

The problems come when you have mages and templars actively provoking each other like in Kirkwall, not from the quarantine itself.

[Kesnit]

I decided to go back and play DA:O over the weekend. Since I switched mod organizers I decided to go back and restart. (I downloaded Vortex when I started playing Enderal, and noticed that it supported DA games. Also, it is made by Nexus, so I thought it would work fine with Nexus mods. I had been using a mod organizer specifically for DAO, but could not find it on my computer when I went to restart.) I downloaded and installed my mods, and with some troubleshooting, got through all the origin stories and got everyone ready to go into the wilds before Ostagar.

I use Dragon Age Extended, which includes (among a lot of other things), an update of the Class and Specialization Pack. In the past, I've never been able to get Ritualist to work, but after some work, I got it going this time. And then I realized I had somehow lost all the additional Specializations. (I didn't notice at first because I was still seeing new specializations that had been added by other mods.) Since I had done so much moving, cutting, copying, and pasting, I wasn't sure what I had where and what was going on. So I did a clean install of DA:O and tried to start again.

First, none of the DLC would install. (I have the Ultimate Edition.) Finally got that fixed and I tried installing mods again. Now about half of the mods are not showing up. (Not just DA Extended, which I haven't even gotten to yet, since I have to install that by hand.) I thought at first the mods were buried in too many subfolders and that Vortex was not putting everything in the correct folders, but that does not seem to have fixed the issue.

I think what I need to do is remove all the mods from Vortex, then download and reinstall them. They worked the first time I installed them, which makes me think Vortex is not installing correctly since Vortex thinks everything is still where it originally was. (I deleted everything except saves when I uninstalled.)

Any other suggestions? Any mod organizers that work better for DAO than Vortex?

[Kish]

Dragon Age 1 established:

1) The Chantry had vast power, backed by ready swords.
2) Mages had very few rights in Ferelden and Orlais. From the moment they were discovered to be mages they were forcibly taken from their families, who would never see or hear from them again, and confined, with no privacy, under the watchful gaze of drug-engineered sociopaths ready to cut them down in a second; they could never go anywhere without supervision for the rest of their lives except for a tiny number who joined the Grey Wardens; they couldn't marry. At the discretion of their supervisors, some of them were automatically subjected to a horrific process that stripped them of emotion and volition and turned them into useful objects. Any who were not subjected to that process had to go through being possessed by a demon. If they got through that successfully, they were, in the best of Circles, protected from being stripped of emotion and volition; they were still slaves for the rest of their lives (again, unless they joined the Grey Wardens, which was rather fraught itself for reasons I don't think anyone here has ever challenged).
3) Mages were people; you could play one.
4) Mages could be tyrants; Tevinter was ruled by mages and cartoonishly terrible.

Gaider expected a lot more sympathy for what amounted to Sera's perspective in DA3--"They're powerful and scary, they should be locked up!" Despite what this thread might suggest, across the playerbase as a whole, this got, I'm glad to say, overwhelming violent rejection. Apparently unwilling, or psychologically unable, to deal with the actual problem--to either make mages less oppressed, or to stop showing them as fundamentally people--he instead played up atrocities committed by mages, trying harder to get "They're powerful and scary, they should be locked up!" It worked on a few people, but, again, only a few. In DA3, distressed by the lack of the reaction he'd anticipated to "Anders murdered half a dozen PRIESTS!" he retconned the explosion, claiming it had bombarded Kirkwall with flaming shrapnel and killed thousands, even though anyone who knew anything about physics would know that there would then be no way Hawke, Meredith, Anders, and Orsino could survive to have their confrontation right in front of the site of the blasted chantry. But ultimately, the four points I outlined are things Bioware isn't retconning (though the second one has changed a great deal, and the first one has changed a little, as a result of DA2 and 3).

Incidentally, while I can't talk about politics here, Gaider's expressed political views are...interesting, and entirely unsurprising, and I hope I'm not over the line just in saying that much.

[Morty]

I decided to go back and play DA:O over the weekend. Since I switched mod organizers I decided to go back and restart. (I downloaded Vortex when I started playing Enderal, and noticed that it supported DA games. Also, it is made by Nexus, so I thought it would work fine with Nexus mods. I had been using a mod organizer specifically for DAO, but could not find it on my computer when I went to restart.) I downloaded and installed my mods, and with some troubleshooting, got through all the origin stories and got everyone ready to go into the wilds before Ostagar.

I use Dragon Age Extended, which includes (among a lot of other things), an update of the Class and Specialization Pack. In the past, I've never been able to get Ritualist to work, but after some work, I got it going this time. And then I realized I had somehow lost all the additional Specializations. (I didn't notice at first because I was still seeing new specializations that had been added by other mods.) Since I had done so much moving, cutting, copying, and pasting, I wasn't sure what I had where and what was going on. So I did a clean install of DA:O and tried to start again.

First, none of the DLC would install. (I have the Ultimate Edition.) Finally got that fixed and I tried installing mods again. Now about half of the mods are not showing up. (Not just DA Extended, which I haven't even gotten to yet, since I have to install that by hand.) I thought at first the mods were buried in too many subfolders and that Vortex was not putting everything in the correct folders, but that does not seem to have fixed the issue.

I think what I need to do is remove all the mods from Vortex, then download and reinstall them. They worked the first time I installed them, which makes me think Vortex is not installing correctly since Vortex thinks everything is still where it originally was. (I deleted everything except saves when I uninstalled.)

Any other suggestions? Any mod organizers that work better for DAO than Vortex?

I was going to ask if you've used Nexus Mod Manager, but it seems the Vortex replaced it? Looking at it, the best advice I could give is to check if any particular mod is causing this, but that's going to take a while.

Also, some of those mods look pretty impressive and I wish I'd known of them when I still felt like playing Origins.

[Driderman]

Incidentally, while I can't talk about politics here, Gaider's expressed political views are...interesting, and entirely unsurprising, and I hope I'm not over the line just in saying that much.

I'd say that you kinda are, in as much as you can't back it up with any sort of proof due to forum rules and nobody can really try to counter your "argument" either as politics aren't allowed on the forums. So to me it seems a bit like baiting to be honest.