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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Vadin's Avatar

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    Default Races: Now with more differentness!

    So my retake on the races, inspired by David Edding's series of books, The Belgariad, reflects the differences inherent in members of the same species that live in different regions and have different cultural values and environmental influences.

    General Elves

    Size: Medium size.

    Base speed: 30 ft.

    Untiring: Immunity to sleep spells and effects.

    Special: Low-light vision.

    Raised in the Trees
    Racial Feats: Elves are automatically proficient with the longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow, as they spend most of their time hunting from a distance in tree branches.
    Observant: +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.

    Blessed With Magic
    Racial Feat: Spell Focus demonstrates their inherent skill at a chosen type of magic.
    Let the Magic Flow:These elves gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

    Tougher than Average
    Racial Feat: Toughness and Endurance shows their natural hardiness in relation to other elves.
    Free to Expand: Without most elves fragile bodies, these elves are granted the gift of more free time as they don't have to worry as much about illness and fatigue. They are granted one more skill point per level, and four more at level one.

    General Dwarves

    Size: Medium size

    Base speed: 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).

    Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).

    Special: Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.

    Battle-Ready
    Weapon Familiarity: Battle-Ready dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
    Anceint Foes: +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids, and a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.

    Forge-Born
    Tougher Stuff: +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
    Trained Eye: +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
    Learned Creation: +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
    Natural Armor: Forge-Born Dwarves have +1 natural armor, and are thus eligible to take feats to improve their natural armor.

    Stone-Priest
    Stonecunning: This ability grants a Stone-Priest dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A Stone-Priest dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. They can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
    Face the Flow: +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

    Humans

    Size: Medium.

    Base Speed: 30 ft.

    Fast Learners: Humans have one extra skill point per level and four extra at level one. In addition, they may pick any skill except Use Magic Device to become a permanent class skill. The permanent class skill gains a +1 bonus.

    Varied Lifestyles: Humans gain an extra feat at level 1, which is in addition to the feat normally gained at level 1.

    General Halflings

    Size: Small. As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.

    Base Speed: 20 ft.

    Sneaky
    Take it all in: Sneaky halflings try and notice everything around them, like places to hide in and things they can climb up. This confers to them +2 racial bonuses on Climb, Jump, Hide, and Search checks
    Aim Between the Eyes: +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
    Collapsible Skeleton: Sneaky Halflings can fit into areas that would normally be too small for them and can fit into areas normally sized for Tiny creatures.

    Persuasive
    Confidence: A Persuasive halfling gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear.
    Fast-Talker: Persuasive halflings have a +1 racial bonus on all Charisma based skills except for Handle Animal and Use Magic Device and +1 racial bonus Disguise and Sense Motive.
    Sleight of Hand: A Persuasive halfling is skilled at fooling opponents at all times, especially in combat. When using the feint maneuver against animals and nonhuman opponents, no penalty is taken. It is still impossible to feint against nonintelligent creatures, however.

    Survivor
    Racial Feat: Survivor Halflings are used to tracking down their own prey and as such gain the track feat at level 1.
    Hangin' On: A Sruvivor halfling is granted a +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
    Fast Getaway: Survivor halflings have stronger legs than most halflings, and as such gain +10 ft to their base movement speed and a +4 bonus on Swim and Climb checks.
    Home in the Wild: A Survivor halfling gains a +4 bonus on Survival checks unless the skill is being used in the manner described in the Track feat.

    General Gnomes

    Size: Small. As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.

    Base Speed: 20 ft.

    Special: Low-light Vision

    Keen Eyed: +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions.

    Undergnome
    Thick-Skinned: Undergnomes gain DR 1/-, reflecting their thicker skin and tougher hides.
    Tunnel Hearing: Undergnomes listen to the vibrations of the stone and earth around them, granting a +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
    Tunnel Feeling: Undergnomes are granted +2 racial bonuses to Search and Knowledge: Dungeoneering from their time spent among the dungeonesque tunnels, dwellings, and alleys of their stone cities beneath the surface.
    Burrowspeak: 1/Day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute) is granted, a gift from the animals they mimic so closely in their everyday activities.

    Ghostgnome
    Ethereal Magics: Add +2 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by ghostgnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects, such as the Spell Focus feat.
    Illusory Gifts: A ghostgnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + ghostgnome’s Cha modifier + spell level.
    Illusive Twitches: Ghostgnomes gain a +2 racial bonus on Move Silently, Hide, and Sleight of Hand checks.

    Grudgegnome
    Know Your Tools: Grudgegnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
    Remember the Enemies: +1 racial bonus on attack rolls and a +4 racial bonus to AC against kobolds, goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears) and creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants).
    Read the Past: Grudgegnomes gain a +2 racial bonus on Knoweledge: History checks.

    General Kobolds
    Stat Penalty: Suffering much the same curse as other small races, kobolds take a -2 penalty to strength. Unlike their mammalian brothers, kobolds also suffer from -2 constitution.

    Size: Small. As a Small creature, a kobold gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.

    Base Speed: 30 ft.

    Special: Dark-Vision out to 60 ft.

    Scaly Hides: Kobolds have a +1 natural armor bonus.

    Dungeon Dweller
    Find the Foods: A Dungeon Dweller Kobold receives a +2 bonus on Craft(Trapmaking) and Search checks thanks to their prolonged amounts of time spent in subterranean environments.
    Duck and Weave: Their life revolves around escaping monsters and escaping adventurers. As such, they've developed some trick to help protect themselves. Dungeon Dweller Kobolds gain the Dodge feat as a racial bonus feat, but apply its +1 dodge bonus to AC against all enemies, meaning they need not choose just one to apply its benefits to.

    Drake Kin
    Claws of the Beast: Drake Kin Kobolds gain two claw attacks that deal 1d4 damage each. In a full attack, one claw must be the primary claw and the other must be the secondary, taking a -5 penalty to attack. Claws of the Beast may be considered monk weapons and used in conjunction with the Flurry of Blows class feature. If a character's unarmed damage would increase, their claw damage increase one step as well.
    Fear Not the Brother: Drake Kin Kobolds know well the cries of their brethren dragons, and gain a +4 bonus on saves to resist fear effects, including but not limited to those of dragons.

    Curious
    Look at That: A Curious Kobold gains a +2 bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks from trying to take in all of their surroundings at once.
    Been There, Done That: Curious Kobolds develop strange resistances to magic. A Curious Kobold gains a +1 to his saving throw bonus against any spell that allows a save and has affected him before. This +1 bonus does not accumulate each time a particular spell affects him, but only the first time, meaning that the bonus granted by this ability will never increase past +1.

    Relic Fused (By Spikes01k)
    Relic fused was modified by an ancient society of wondrous power. They were able to combine living humanoids with magical devices. For the most part they appear human, but they have a number of small gems seemingly randomly implanted in their body that glow slightly on command. These gems do not produce enough light to be of any help with vision in dark areas. however. Also ,a large portion of a relic fused body is covered in mechanical looking metal, making parts of them look much like a Warforged and leaving other areas completely human. As little as a tenth of their body may be covered, or as much as three whole limbs.

    General Relic Fused
    Stat Penalty: Their terrible creation process gives them a -2 to any physical stat they choose.

    Size: Medium Size.

    Base Speed: 30 ft.

    Special: Darkvision 30 ft.

    Transmutation Master
    Remember the Method: A Transmutation Master remembers parts of how he was created, and the magic of transforming comes naturally to him. When he gains a new level spells in a Vancian casting class (classes with spells per day), he can add one spell of the Transmutation school to his list of spells known for free.
    It Comes Naturally: On character creation, a Transmutation Master picks one 0 level Transmutation spell that he can cast once per day with a caster level equal to his character level.

    Rock Solid
    Racial Feat: This relic fused is more suited to a harder life than most. They receive the Endurance feat as a bonus racial feat.
    Unwavering: They can hold their breath three times longer than a normal human can, and gain a +1 racial bonus on Fortitude and Will saves.
    Rocky Skin: They gain a +1 Natural Armor Bonus, and are eligible to improve this armor bonus with monster feats that increase.

    Shielded
    Steel Skin: At least two limbs or an equivalent amountof space on their body is covered with metal. The magical aspect of their body's coating has provided them with a great deal more protection than most. These relic fused's base armor (their AC without armor, DEX, or any other bonuses) is 12 instead of 10, and as such can never be denied them be the attack touch or flat-footed.
    Stop the Blow: Shielded Relic Fused gain a +2 racial bonus on Fortitude saves.

    Backgrounds
    Backgrounds provide a character's stat bonus and give him a +2 bonus to Profession checks relating to his background.

    Physical Jobs
    Fisherman, laborer, or pack mule, your pre-adventuring profession has granted you a +2 bonus to strength.

    Skilled Jobs
    Before you became an adventurer, you were an acrobat, a message carrier, or a professional racer and thusly have +2 dexterity.

    Tough Jobs
    Some time ago, you worked as a blacksmith in a forge, or a cart-pusher in a mine, and have been gifted with +2 constitution.

    Intellectual Jobs
    You studied as a scholar, taught at a university, or helped the commoners navigate your local library. Your high-minded pursuits have granted you with +2 intelligence.

    Natural Jobs
    You have a +2 bonus to wisdom thanks to your previous employment as a tracker, a priest, or the local healer.

    Persuasive Jobs
    Whether you were a diplomat, a merchant, or a lobbyist for the underprivileged, your time spent talking with people of all varieties and types have trained you well and given you +2 charisma.

    Wildcard Jobs
    An amnesiac, a jester, a vagabond, or some other such odd job, you've been gifted in an unusual way. Add +2 to any one stat.

    Character Flaws

    Weak
    As a child, you were never as strong as your friends, and it takes some extra work for you to build up your body. Your naturally lower muscle mass curses you with -2 STR.

    Clumsy
    Others call you an oaf, a klutz, even a 'doofus'. You know it's not really your fault though, you were born with a -2 penalty to DEX.

    Frail
    Maybe you got hurt a lot or were always sick with something. Either way, you just aren't as tough as other people are and, consequently, have -2 CON.

    Unaware
    You were always really focused, or totally unaware. With little gray area, you rarely noticed the little things around you unless people pointed them out. You have a -2 penalty to WIS as a result of your on-off attention.

    Slow
    When people tried to teach you, it always took a little longer for you than it did for the other kids. You needed some extra explaining when you learned the rules for new games and never had a head for numbers because of your -2 INT penalty.

    Introspective
    Maybe you always spent more time alone than you did with other people, and never learned to pick up on body language. Maybe you were more concerned with learning than with playing with other kids and observing social dynamics at work. No matter your story, you've got a -2 penalty to CHA.

    Weird
    You might have had a terrible illness. Maybe you've got a lot of extra fingers that get in the way. Maybe you're just really ugly. For some reason or another, you have a -2 penalty to one chosen stat.
    Last edited by Vadin; 2007-08-06 at 02:41 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Wait, do they get Raised in the Trees, Blessed With Magic, & Tougher than Average, or just one? Also, TtA leaves them with a net Constitution of +0; that's not a great asset outside of the Elven community. I'd go with a bonus to another ability, like Charisma (fitting for elves), Wisdom (very fitting for elves), or Strength (unusual/interesting for elves).

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadin View Post
    General Elves
    Stat Penalty: As elves are generally frail, they suffer a -2 penalty to constitution.

    Size: Medium size.

    Base speed: 30 ft.

    Untiring: Immunity to sleep spells and effects.

    Special: Low-light vision.

    Tougher than Average
    Stat Bonus: +2 Constitution is a reflection of these elves inherently tougher bodies, overcoming their races normal penalty and becoming stat neutral.
    Racial Feat: Toughness shows their natural hardiness in relation to other elves.
    Free to Expand: Without most elves fragile bodies, these elves are granted the gift of more free time as they don't have to worry as much about illness and fatigue. They are granted one more skill point per level, and four more at level one.
    Which makes them humans with immunity to sleep effects and low-light vision. With a sub-par feat choice, but it's a feat nonetheless.

    Isn't that kind of bad for humans?

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Vadin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    Wait, do they get Raised in the Trees, Blessed With Magic, & Tougher than Average, or just one? Also, TtA leaves them with a net Constitution of +0; that's not a great asset outside of the Elven community. I'd go with a bonus to another ability, like Charisma (fitting for elves), Wisdom (very fitting for elves), or Strength (unusual/interesting for elves).
    They pick one that reflects their character best. One, and only one. Two shall not be the number of the choosing, and three? Right out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Khantalas View Post
    Which makes them humans with immunity to sleep effects and low-light vision. With a sub-par feat choice, but it's a feat nonetheless.

    Isn't that kind of bad for humans?
    Compared to present humans, yes. Give me 20 minutes or so to write up new humans, and you'll see the differences.
    Last edited by Vadin; 2007-07-15 at 11:11 AM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadin View Post
    They pick one that reflects their character best. One, and only one. Two shall not be the number of the choosing, and three? Right out!
    Nicely done...

    On another note, I'm intrigued, but I'd like to see more before I make any serious critiques.
    *Evil grin* "Snip snip."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    The wizard sleeps the fighter, and/or greases him for sneak attack, and/or uses color spray. And/or makes him too weak to use his armour. And does the laundry.

    Avatar by Starwoof! Thank you kind sir!

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Vadin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Halflings, Humans, Elves, and Dwarves up so far.

    I'm having a little trouble now coming up with what to do for Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, and Gnomes. Other races (like Menads and Xephs and Azurin) might eventually show up, but aren't planned as of yet.
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    Troll in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Humans to powerful.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Vadin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by jindra34 View Post
    Humans to powerful.
    Is it the choice of stat edits or the two class skills? If its the skills, then be aware that there are several feats that allow permanent class skills. I was thinking about only having it be one skill instead of two, and may very well change it back to that.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    I was going to say that I thought the choice of ability change was too powerful for a couple reasons, but I don't know if I really can say that. While I worry about abuse, especially for Wizards (+2 Int/ -2 Cha. I never really needed that Charisma anyway) and other casters, if you want to play a character with a stat adjustment that fits your class, it's probably out there somewhere. So now I'm torn.

    I'm going to have to come down tentatively on the "It's a bad idea", side, because it makes humans more attractive than they already were (and who doesn't want an extra feat at first level?)
    *Evil grin* "Snip snip."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    The wizard sleeps the fighter, and/or greases him for sneak attack, and/or uses color spray. And/or makes him too weak to use his armour. And does the laundry.

    Avatar by Starwoof! Thank you kind sir!

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Vadin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    So now humans will only get one permanent class skill and have to forgo their extra feat at level one to gain their stat penalty and bonus.
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    Troll in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadin View Post
    So now humans will only get one permanent class skill and have to forgo their extra feat at level one to gain their stat penalty and bonus.
    It will never be balanced if you keep the take two points from one stat add to another...

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by jindra34 View Post
    It will never be balanced if you keep the take two points from one stat add to another...
    I think it would be fine if you add the stipulation "This racial modifier cannot increase an ability score at first level higher than 18"

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by jindra34 View Post
    It will never be balanced if you keep the take two points from one stat add to another...
    How is that unbalanced? You know that all of the other races work like that, right? PHB Elves: Supposed to be archers or wizards. Both are ranged, so a CON penalty and lower HP probably aren't as big a deal. +2 Dex helps them be rangers. PHB Dwarves: +2 Con, -2 Cha. They're supposed to be gruff and scottish fighters or paladins. Cha helps the paladin, but its still good at combat with a lower charisma. And fighters? Fighters have next to no use for CHA.

    All races except for humans have -2 in one stat that isn't as useful for their favored class and +2 in a stat that is useful for their favored class. Giving humans the option of choosing which ones is the same thing.

    If you've noticed, however, I don't have any favored classes in here. My group and I have done away with them, as they really aren't very useful and tend to not matter at all.

    On a similar note, I cut the human down to one extra class skill. Also, they have to forgo their extra feat for stat modifiers.
    Last edited by Vadin; 2007-07-15 at 01:27 PM.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    I like the idea a lot, but I don't think it's good for game balance to provide mental stat boosts on non-LAed races. If you look throughout all the published supplements, with the exception of some of the subraces in the Monster Manual (which I don't think were really meant to be balanced for PC use) there are practically no LA 0 races with bonuses to int, wis or cha. Spellcasters have a big enough power advantage as it is, and giving them further easy boosts is never a good idea. Besides, under this system every wizard will be either elf or human, every cleric or druid will be either dwarf or human, and every sorcerer will be either human or halfling. For a spellcaster, no other racial ability comes close to being as important as +2 to their primary casting stat.
    Last edited by CthulhuM; 2007-07-15 at 02:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by psychoticbarber View Post
    [snip] if you want to play a character with a stat adjustment that fits your class, it's probably out there somewhere. So now I'm torn.
    Actually, you can make that more specific.

    "If you want to play a character with a stat adjustment that fits your class, there is an elf subrace out there somewhere."

    Gosh darn elves...
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadin View Post
    How is that unbalanced? You know that all of the other races work like that, right? PHB Elves: Supposed to be archers or wizards. Both are ranged, so a CON penalty and lower HP probably aren't as big a deal. +2 Dex helps them be rangers. PHB Dwarves: +2 Con, -2 Cha. They're supposed to be gruff and scottish fighters or paladins. Cha helps the paladin, but its still good at combat with a lower charisma. And fighters? Fighters have next to no use for CHA.

    All races except for humans have -2 in one stat that isn't as useful for their favored class and +2 in a stat that is useful for their favored class. Giving humans the option of choosing which ones is the same thing.

    If you've noticed, however, I don't have any favored classes in here. My group and I have done away with them, as they really aren't very useful and tend to not matter at all.

    On a similar note, I cut the human down to one extra class skill. Also, they have to forgo their extra feat for stat modifiers.
    Its unbalanced because of the freeness of the choice. you can pick any stat to boost and then stick the minus in your dump stat. With other races you at least are constrained or have to aquire an LA to achieve the same choice potential. Furthermore its obscenely abuseable (not the +2, the specifable -2) note that i have not complained about other races because you are forces to take a definitive penalty to one stat.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeejimbo View Post
    Actually, you can make that more specific.

    "If you want to play a character with a stat adjustment that fits your class, there is an elf subrace out there somewhere."

    Gosh darn elves...
    Hahaha. Too true, darn it.
    *Evil grin* "Snip snip."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrarity View Post
    The wizard sleeps the fighter, and/or greases him for sneak attack, and/or uses color spray. And/or makes him too weak to use his armour. And does the laundry.

    Avatar by Starwoof! Thank you kind sir!

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    You know that there are tons and tons and TONS of LA +0 races that give mental stat bonuses in the twos and fours for often little penalty, right?

    Picking one isn't all that different at all, and like this they're constrained to a +2.

    If its the freeness of the choice, consider that it honestly isn't that hard at all to find a race that will fit what you want to do and is still LA +0.
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    I've made a bit of a table for perspective. It summarizes ability adjustments with SRD races, including some variants but not monsters. (Well, not most monsters. I will add more later, possibly.) Where there are multiple bonuses or penalties, the others are listed in parentheses. Where the bonus or penalty is more than 2, that is listed. A couple of these have an LA of +1, which is listed in the parentheses, but none go higher than that.

    {table=head]Bonus|-STR|-DEX|-CON|-INT|-WIS|-CHA

    +STR|X|Aquatic/Arctic Dwarf (-4 Dex, -2 Cha, +2 Con), Earth Dwarf (+2 Con, -2 Cha), Half-Giant (+2 Con, LA+1)| |Half-Orc (-2 Cha), Water Orc (+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha), Wood Elf|Water Orc (+4 Str, Con +2, -2 Int, -2 Cha) |Half-Orc (-2 Int), Aquatic/Arctic Dwarf (-4 Dex, Con +2), Earth Dwarf (+2 Con, -2 Dex), Water Orc (+4 Str, Con +2, -2 Int, -2 Wis)

    +DEX|Halfling, Arctic/Desert Elf, Air Gnome, Air Goblin (+4 dex, -2 Con), Water Halfling (+2 Con), Xeph|X|Elf, Air Goblin (+4 dex, -2 Str), Fire Elf (+2 Int, -2 Cha)|Wild Elf| |Fire Elf (+2 Int, -2 Con), Fire Hobgoblin (+2 Con, +2 Int, LA+1)

    +CON|Gnome, Aquatic/Arctic Goblin (-2 Cha), Water Halfling (+2 Dex)|Desert Dwarf, Earth Dwarf (+2 Str, -2 Cha), Half-Giant (+2 Str, LA+1)|X|Desert Half-Orc, Water Orc (+4 Str, -2 Wis, -2 Cha)|Water Orc (+4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha)|Dwarf, Aquatic/Arctic Goblin (-2 Str), Earth Dwarf (+2 Str, -2 Dex), Fire Hobgoblin (+2 Dex, +2 Int, LA+1), Water Orc (+4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis), Duergar (-4 Cha)

    +INT|Grey Elf| |Fire Elf (+2 Dex, -2 Cha)|X| |Fire Elf (+2 Dex, -2 Cha), Fire Hobgoblin (+2 Dex, +2 Con, LA+1)

    +WIS| | | | |X|

    +CHA|Dromite (-2 Wis)| | | |Dromite (-2 Str)|X [/table]
    Last edited by mikeejimbo; 2007-07-15 at 03:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadin View Post
    You know that there are tons and tons and TONS of LA +0 races that give mental stat bonuses in the twos and fours for often little penalty, right?

    Picking one isn't all that different at all, and like this they're constrained to a +2.

    If its the freeness of the choice, consider that it honestly isn't that hard at all to find a race that will fit what you want to do and is still LA +0.
    It's not that the current choices are balanced, it's that we'd like any replacement rules to be balanced.

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    I see...

    What if, in addition to the having to give up their extra feat, they could only choose to improve/penalize physical stats? That seems to neatly avoid the caster issue while still allowing for regional variations in body types (extra CON up north, extra DEX in the desert, etc.)
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    I like the general idea. :D

    But I think is to much to give +2 charisma and +2 to all charisma based skills is a +4 bonus to all charisma based skills for persuasive hallflings.

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadin View Post
    I see...

    What if, in addition to the having to give up their extra feat, they could only choose to improve/penalize physical stats? That seems to neatly avoid the caster issue while still allowing for regional variations in body types (extra CON up north, extra DEX in the desert, etc.)
    I'd say it would be fair. Honestly, as long as you only allowed improvements to physical stats, you could allow them to apply penalties to any stat without it being broken. It's not as if people can't already find a race with satisfactory dump stat without much trouble.

    Actually, you might consider creating just +STR, +DEX and +CON versions of all the races, and leaving the mental stats alone. So long as you do that, there's little real risk of unbalancing anything.
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    +2 to the charisma score is +1 to the charisma bonus. (12 charisma is a +1 bonus, for example) Still, I'd be leery to giving Hobbits +3 to Use Magic Device.
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Yeah, didn't realize UMD was CHA (Always thought it was INT. I never notice, I'm always a psion). I also went ahead and cut down the bonus on CHA skills to +1 so they end up with a net +2.
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    And gnomes are up! Half-elves and half-orcs...little to no idea where to go with them. If anybody wants to try their hand at making the general forms of each and perhaps some sub-races.
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Why don't we just declare the full-monty: remove the ability score adjustments from races altogether, and add them, and other small abilities under "backgrounds" like Scholar (+Int -Con) and Soldier (+Con -Wis).
    That way, you could be an Elf Scholar or a Dwarf Scholar and be a wizard under any race you want, rather than having to change your character background to conform to race rules.
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Thats...thats...thats actually a really good idea! Or if every race a stat-neutral form and a bonus form to each stat (except their penalty stat). So I could be a dwarf with +0 Cha, or +2 STR/-2 CHA, +2 WIS/-2 CHA, +2 INT/-2 CHA, and so on for CON and DEX. That would give each race a huge variety of potential niches they could fill. Looks like a lot of work, too. TO THE COMPUTERS!
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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadin View Post
    Thats...thats...thats actually a really good idea! Or if every race a stat-neutral form and a bonus form to each stat (except their penalty stat). So I could be a dwarf with +0 Cha, or +2 STR/-2 CHA, +2 WIS/-2 CHA, +2 INT/-2 CHA, and so on for CON and DEX. That would give each race a huge variety of potential niches they could fill. Looks like a lot of work, too. TO THE COMPUTERS!
    One penalty for any bonus is too minmaxable, especially stats like Charisma and Wisdom are either vital to the class or fluff. I feel like any race should support any class, without having to suffer for your concept, and a profession based system would be better for it.

    It's more like you're cutting the race in half, and letting you match the two halves; I'm basing this off the Spycraft system wherein you had an origin (which gave stat and focuses to certain skills) and a career (which gave a bonus feat and a few other bonuses) and works really well.
    Aside from giving flexibility to character concepts, it essentialy multiplies the number of races available exponentially, as each career allows each origin.

    What you suggested here seems really close to that, so I'm offering the rest of how that system works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExHunterEmerald
    Incidentally, Armadillo, I'd suggest you were hit by a spark of inspiration, but that would knock your armor off.

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    Default Re: Races: Now with more differentness!

    Its a good concept to model after and compare with, I'm assuming that the system is only for humans? Something like that that tied into each race would be handy, very handy indeed.
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