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  1. - Top - End - #1171
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by HouseRules View Post
    Not weird. Raw price has to be lower than product price to make profit. Adamantine Spider is the source of Adamantine, so they are price lower than the metal itself.

    Iron ores has to be cheaper than iron sand.
    Copper ores has to be cheaper than copper.
    The same rules apply here.
    Adamantine Spiders are constructs made by the Drow. They're literally 150 pounds of pure adamantine. They're not the "source" of anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    FWIW, ship's adamantine armor plating (Dragon #353) costs 5000 gp, and weighs 5000 lb.
    That's just... what? I know it's Dragon Magazine stuff, but still. What?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    Adamantine Spiders are constructs made by the Drow. They're literally 150 pounds of pure adamantine. They're not the "source" of anything.



    That's just... what? I know it's Dragon Magazine stuff, but still. What?
    Maybe they're not actually all that pure adamantine, after whatever magical reagents are used to make them animate?

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    The sha'ir gets craft wondrous item at Level 13 as a sort of bonus feat, but can only use it to create an iron flask that can be used to trap a genie.
    The prerequisite spell to create an iron flask is trap the soul, an 8th level spell.

    Now according to the DMG, "if spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)"; depending on how you read the retrieval rules, a sha'ir needs to be at least level 15 or 16 in order to fulfil the prerequisite, so the class gives you an ability that you have to wait sorta 3 levels until you may use it.
    Bumped since no one answered yet.
    Sha'ir can to purchase a scroll of Trap the Soul (15000 gp)
    IMHO, much worse problem there is CL 20 requirement - to bump a Sha'ir CL from 13 to 20 may be a tad more problematic...

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    That's just... what? I know it's Dragon Magazine stuff, but still. What?
    Unusually, there are no fault of Dragon's authors - they just copied general rules for vehicle armor plating from the Arms and Equipment Guide


    And one more dysfunction:Navigator's Kit (Arms and Equipment Guide):
    This expensive set of instruments includes a sextant, astrolabe, compass, and measuring tools. It has no benefit on land but grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Intuit Direction and Wilderness Lore (directional only) checks while at sea, and on Profession (cartographer) checks to make maps.
    Cost - 250 gp; Weight - 8 lb.
    Sextant (Stormwrack): Cost - 250 gp; Weight - 10 lb.
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2019-05-30 at 01:42 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #1174
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Sha'ir can to purchase a scroll of Trap the Soul (15000 gp)
    IMHO, much worse problem there is CL 20 requirement - to bump a Sha'ir CL from 13 to 20 may be a tad more problematic..
    The minimum price of trap the soul scrolls is 4,000 gp each, but they are intended per day; if I'm not mistaken, this means 340,000 gp to create the genie prison, which is enough to buy 2 iron flasks (a better object), and is way beyond the possibilities of a 13th level PC.

    BTW, IIRC, after errata the CL shown in an object's description is only provided as an example, the minimum possible CL is actually that required to cast the required spell (short of shaenigans is 15).

  5. - Top - End - #1175
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    BTW, IIRC, after errata the CL shown in an object's description is only provided as an example, the minimum possible CL is actually that required to cast the required spell (short of shaenigans is 15).
    Good point!
    It means - one dysfunction less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    The minimum price of trap the soul scrolls is 4,000 gp each, but they are intended per day; if I'm not mistaken, this means 340,000 gp to create the genie prison, which is enough to buy 2 iron flasks (a better object), and is way beyond the possibilities of a 13th level PC.
    What's you're even talking about?
    From where you pulling it?

    1) What the hell means "minimum price ... is 4,000 gp each"? Scroll of trap the soul costs 13000 gp - check the SRD!
    But SRD expected creature up to 10 HD; since Marid (Manual of the Planes) is genie too, and have 11 HD, I bumped the cost up to 15000 (because of extra material components, and expecting CL 20 - for CL 15 it will be 14000 gp).
    To catch Rajief the Prince of the Djinn (19 HD, Exemplars of Evil), you will need 22000 gp (23000 - if CL 20)

    2) What's you mean "per day"?! The spell is "Duration: Permanent; see text"!

    3) The "340,000 gp" is poppycock

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Good point!
    It means - one dysfunction less.

    What's you're even talking about?
    From where you pulling it?
    You need the spell for each day you spend crafting the item. If you assume you are allowed to get it from a scroll, that means one scroll per day of crafting. Trap The Soul does not specify a minimum cost for the gem, and the resultant item does not appear to be affected by the cost of the gem used to make the scroll at all, so there's no reason to get a scroll for this purpose that is any more expensive than the bare minimum (in fact making a Wondrous Item would not normally invoke material components at all, so the value of the soul-trap gem is completely irrelevant to the function of the resulting genie trap/Iron Flask - the only reason it's even under discussion is that we're trying to bypass 'I can't actually cast this spell yet' by using scrolls, which do require the material component.)

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    You need the spell for each day you spend crafting the item. If you assume you are allowed to get it from a scroll, that means one scroll per day of crafting. Trap The Soul does not specify a minimum cost for the gem, and the resultant item does not appear to be affected by the cost of the gem used to make the scroll at all, so there's no reason to get a scroll for this purpose that is any more expensive than the bare minimum (in fact making a Wondrous Item would not normally invoke material components at all, so the value of the soul-trap gem is completely irrelevant to the function of the resulting genie trap/Iron Flask - the only reason it's even under discussion is that we're trying to bypass 'I can't actually cast this spell yet' by using scrolls, which do require the material component.)
    Well, firstly: if we would be so meticulous, 13th-level Sha'ir wouldn't be able to craft it anyway, because Flask market price is 170000 gp - thus, 85000 gp to create; WbL for 13th level is 110000 gp
    Secondly: what if craft it on Astral plane? This way, no days pass at all...
    Thirdly: how about the Planar Binding of Brachina? They got the Trap the Soul 1/day...

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    Oh, I guessed that anything posted had to be discussed to check if consensus is given before being added to the handbook. Possibly I've equivocated.
    The Dysfunction Handbook only covers the first 7 threads. This is the 8th thread.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    What's you're even talking about?
    From where you pulling it?
    I fully quote tyckspoon:
    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    You need the spell for each day you spend crafting the item. If you assume you are allowed to get it from a scroll, that means one scroll per day of crafting. Trap The Soul does not specify a minimum cost for the gem, and the resultant item does not appear to be affected by the cost of the gem used to make the scroll at all, so there's no reason to get a scroll for this purpose that is any more expensive than the bare minimum (in fact making a Wondrous Item would not normally invoke material components at all, so the value of the soul-trap gem is completely irrelevant to the function of the resulting genie trap/Iron Flask - the only reason it's even under discussion is that we're trying to bypass 'I can't actually cast this spell yet' by using scrolls, which do require the material component.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Well, firstly: if we would be so meticulous, 13th-level Sha'ir wouldn't be able to craft it anyway, because Flask market price is 170000 gp - thus, 85000 gp to create; WbL for 13th level is 110000 gp
    Yes, that's another good point. The problem is that, in AD&D, all sha'ir's abilities had their own, separate, comprehensive descriptions, while in 3.5 they adopt existing spells and feats - without checkreading if they actually work for the class.


    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Secondly: what if craft it on Astral plane? This way, no days pass at all...
    Uh, I'm not THAT practiced in magic items' creation to answer it. My first impression is that the rules say that you need in any case 85 days ("personal" time or "local" time, doesn't matter) and 85 castings of the spell, so crafting on the astral plane shouldn't make a difference. But I'm not sure; is it a known trick?


    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Thirdly: how about the Planar Binding of Brachina? They got the Trap the Soul 1/day...
    After a quick research, I'm under the impression it would work (although they have +17 will and +9 cha, it should still be feasible). So, there's at least one feasible strategy to create the item - provided that the 85,000 gp aren't a problem. Still kinda disfunctional.


    Quote Originally Posted by HouseRules View Post
    The Dysfunction Handbook only covers the first 7 threads. This is the 8th thread.
    Sorry, my misunderstanding was that any post had to be mandatorily analyzed by the users for correctness aforehand.

  10. - Top - End - #1180
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Epic Autohypnosis allows you to roll against a poisons DC +5 to negate the second saving throw. Useful enough and especially strange since often this would not require epic skill ranks to achieve. When we turn to the regular description for autohypnosis we find that it actually has the same ability at a DC of poison's DC. The exact wording is different but I can't find any way in which the effect actually differs, besides making it harder.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    Epic Autohypnosis allows you to roll against a poisons DC +5 to negate the second saving throw. Useful enough and especially strange since often this would not require epic skill ranks to achieve. When we turn to the regular description for autohypnosis we find that it actually has the same ability at a DC of poison's DC. The exact wording is different but I can't find any way in which the effect actually differs, besides making it harder.
    I'd guess this is just something that got missed in updating the information; Epic is generally something of an afterthought (see also the ongoing debate about whether or not the Epic version of Magic Immunity was supposed to be changed to be infinite SR, or if they actually did mean to just have it say 'you're immune to magic' still.) The 'resist poison' function may have been added to Autohypnosis when it got updated in the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook, and nobody was too concerned about reconciling it with the previous version..

    That said, I think there is one functional difference? The Epic version says you 'ignore the secondary damage'; the non-Epic version just lets you substitute your Autohypnosis check for your saving throw. This could make a difference depending on the exact poison, eg for poisons that don't permit a save against the secondary effect or have a save for reduced effect instead of negating. The Epic Autohypnosis use will bypass those entirely.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Well, they do stack, so it basically lets you roll twice and take the higher result.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    So, while I was looking into options for this thread, I was thinking about how exactly Legacy Champion works.

    Let's say you currently have 3 levels in Ranger. Then you reach Legacy Champion level 2, causing you to "gain class features and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in [Ranger]". So you obtain the Ranger-level-4 class feature, Animal Companion.

    What happens if you take another level of Ranger now?

    Considering that the Legacy Champion class feature doesn't particularly modify the ranger class, I suppose you reach Ranger level 4 and obtain the Ranger-level-4 class feature, Animal Companion. Now you have two animal companions!

    But wait, there's more. What if, instead of taking Ranger level 4, you took Legacy Chamption level 3? This would, again, cause you to "gain class features and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in [Ranger]". And since what would have happened if you gained a level in Ranger was to gain Animal Companion, Legacy Champion gives you yet another animal companion!

    In conclusion, Legacy Champion usually gives you a bunch of copies of the same class feature.

    This dysfunction also applies to every spellcasting-progressing prestige class, making them even more limited than they already were based on previously discovered dysfunctions.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    What this thread is not for

    • Dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text (In combat, everyone is flat-footed until they act, so they must have been flat-footed whenever they weren't in combat, even though the text only specifies that they're flat-footed in combat. Someone who can't be flanked can't have a person on each side of them because if they did, they would be flanked.) Unless every possible reading of the text is dysfunctional no matter how you read it (even if it's dysfunctional in different ways).
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Baphitaur statblock have listed flat-footed AC number, but Natural Cunning SQ prevents Baphitaur from being flat-footed no matter what
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2019-06-20 at 12:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Redundancy isn't really dysfunctional, is it?
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    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by EliDupree View Post
    So, while I was looking into options for this thread, I was thinking about how exactly Legacy Champion works.

    Let's say you currently have 3 levels in Ranger. Then you reach Legacy Champion level 2, causing you to "gain class features and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in [Ranger]". So you obtain the Ranger-level-4 class feature, Animal Companion.

    What happens if you take another level of Ranger now?

    Considering that the Legacy Champion class feature doesn't particularly modify the ranger class, I suppose you reach Ranger level 4 and obtain the Ranger-level-4 class feature, Animal Companion. Now you have two animal companions!

    But wait, there's more. What if, instead of taking Ranger level 4, you took Legacy Chamption level 3? This would, again, cause you to "gain class features and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in [Ranger]". And since what would have happened if you gained a level in Ranger was to gain Animal Companion, Legacy Champion gives you yet another animal companion!

    In conclusion, Legacy Champion usually gives you a bunch of copies of the same class feature.

    This dysfunction also applies to every spellcasting-progressing prestige class, making them even more limited than they already were based on previously discovered dysfunctions.
    This particular quirk is taken care of by the rule that the same feature twice overlaps, it doesn't stack unless specifically mentioned, like with uncanny dodge.
    Could you explain how this same dysfunction applies to PrCs that progress spellcasting?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    This particular quirk is taken care of by the rule that the same feature twice overlaps, it doesn't stack unless specifically mentioned, like with uncanny dodge.
    Could you explain how this same dysfunction applies to PrCs that progress spellcasting?
    Clearly, this means that Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant does not stack. Base Class Levels gained after such prestige classes does not progress spell level nor caster level because they overlap with existing spell level and caster level.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    Redundancy isn't really dysfunctional, is it?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
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    I don't see a reading of the text where it can mean what it's intended to mean. The intended behavior seems clear, but it just isn't what the text says.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    This particular quirk is taken care of by the rule that the same feature twice overlaps, it doesn't stack unless specifically mentioned, like with uncanny dodge.
    Could you explain how this same dysfunction applies to PrCs that progress spellcasting?
    What rule is that? I know there's a rule like that for gestalt characters, and a rule like that for bonuses, but I don't remember seeing a rule like that that applies in general. (And even if you can't duplicate class features, it's still dysfunctional in that Legacy Champion can only get you one level of class features when it's intended to get you eight.)

    For spellcasting PRCs, they typically say something like "When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class..." So if you were a Wizard 13 / Archmage X, with a literal reading, you'd keep gaining spells-per-day as if you had gained Wizard 14 when you were previously a Wizard 13/Archmage X. The way I read it, I guess you'd keep getting 7th level spell slots forever but never get to 8th level spell slots. Or if you can't duplicate class features, you'd just gain nothing.
    Last edited by EliDupree; 2019-06-20 at 07:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by EliDupree View Post
    I don't see a reading of the text where it can mean what it's intended to mean. The intended behavior seems clear, but it just isn't what the text says.
    Well, where it says "gain class features and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in [Ranger]," you can understand "increase in effective level" as meaning that you're effectively a Ranger of one level higher; that is, even though you've only got three levels in Ranger, you count as having four. That's a non-dysfunctional reading.

    (On a side note, if it doesn't mean that, I'm clueless as to what "increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in Ranger" could possibly mean)

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSandman View Post
    Well, where it says "gain class features and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in [Ranger]," you can understand "increase in effective level" as meaning that you're effectively a Ranger of one level higher; that is, even though you've only got three levels in Ranger, you count as having four. That's a non-dysfunctional reading.

    (On a side note, if it doesn't mean that, I'm clueless as to what "increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in Ranger" could possibly mean)
    Since it used the word "effective", I was assuming it referred to Effective Character Level (ECL), which is indeed normally increased by gaining a level in Ranger. But I suppose you could also interpret it as "effective Ranger level", which is pretty ambiguous as to what it affects, but does make it qualify for the "a non-dysfunctional reading exists" rule because you could interpret it to affect exactly the things that it should, and none of the things that it shouldn't. Good point.

    EDIT: And if it's referring to ECL, that's another dysfunction because you'd gain TWO levels of ECL, one from the Legacy Champion class level and one from the Legacy Champion class feature mimicking a Ranger class level.
    Last edited by EliDupree; 2019-06-21 at 04:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Vow of Abstinence gives bonuses to resist the effects of poisons and drugs. Unfortunately, consuming any drug, even unintentionally, causes you to immediately lose the feat.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    From Pathfinder, the Astomoi race "can’t speak or see, but can mentally sense the area within 60 feet, as per darkvision", causing all sorts of issues where the allegedly eyeless race can be blinded, affected by gaze attacks, have their "vision" hindered by obscuring mist or supernatural darkness... all of which could have been circumvented by just giving them blindsight instead of an ability that works as darkvision.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    The monster entry for Stone Golem says that Stone to Flesh does not change its structure but negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for 1 full round.

    Stone to Flesh, on the other hand, specifies that it turns a Stone Golem into a Flesh Golem, Instantaneously.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I've heard some say that this is evidence you can do it if you cast it twice, but by strict RAW you're right, it's a contradiction.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    I've heard some say that this is evidence you can do it if you cast it twice, but by strict RAW you're right, it's a contradiction.
    I think that the Golem's Immunity to Magic (Ex) ability probably wins out on being the most specific source? The way I think probably makes most sense to resolve it is that the Immunity to Magic overrides Stone to Flesh's text, but if you somehow strip that ability from it (which, yes, Stone to Flesh is the easiest way to do it), then Stone to Flesh would then turn it into a flesh golem. (Su) Stone to Flesh would also presumably turn it straight into a flesh golem.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    I think that the Golem's Immunity to Magic (Ex) ability probably wins out on being the most specific source? The way I think probably makes most sense to resolve it is that the Immunity to Magic overrides Stone to Flesh's text, but if you somehow strip that ability from it (which, yes, Stone to Flesh is the easiest way to do it), then Stone to Flesh would then turn it into a flesh golem. (Su) Stone to Flesh would also presumably turn it straight into a flesh golem.
    Is there any way to do that in Core,though? Stone to Flesh already doesn't work, so if there isn't, that's still a dysfunction since the spell (at least originally) couldn't do that. Well, I guess it wouldn't be a dysfunction any more since there are presumably non-core ways to accomplish this, but still...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    Is there any way to do that in Core,though? Stone to Flesh already doesn't work, so if there isn't, that's still a dysfunction since the spell (at least originally) couldn't do that. Well, I guess it wouldn't be a dysfunction any more since there are presumably non-core ways to accomplish this, but still...
    First StF: Strips magic immunity for 1 round
    Second StF: Golem is no longer immune to magic, so it has the listed effect and turns it into a Flesh Golem
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    First StF: Strips magic immunity for 1 round
    Second StF: Golem is no longer immune to magic, so it has the listed effect and turns it into a Flesh Golem
    Ah, right, wasn't thinking. Nevermind then.
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