A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    A contemptative who couldn't previously have cast divine spells starts to cast them just as a cleric does. Contemplatives who couldn't previously have cast divine spells don't exist.

    A favoured soul/divine oracle can prepare oracle domain spells in her nonexistent domain slots.

    A geomancer who uses some ability score other than charisma or intelligence to determine arcane spell DCs can use whichever of intelligence and charisma he uses for his arcane spells for his divine spells as well.
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2017-01-24 at 08:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    A contemptative who couldn't previously have cast divine spells starts to cast them just as a cleric does. Contemplatives who couldn't previously have cast divine spells don't exist.
    Actually, the rule applies to Contemplatives who did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class. Which is totally a thing that can happen.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Actually, the rule applies to Contemplatives who did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class. Which is totally a thing that can happen.
    Or you can just be the beneficiary of Imbue with Spell Ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Or an arcane caster with Southern Magician.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    A geomancer who uses some ability score other than charisma or intelligence to determine arcane spell DCs can use whichever of intelligence and charisma he uses for his arcane spells for his divine spells as well.
    AFAIK, the only Wis-based arcane caster is Unseelie Dark Hunter PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    A favoured soul/divine oracle can prepare oracle domain spells in her nonexistent domain slots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Divine
    Extra Domains
    If a noncleric enters a prestige class that allows access to a domain, the character still gains access to the domain. She can use the granted power bestowed by the domain normally. If she memorizes spells like a druid, paladin, or ranger, then she can simply choose to memorize one of that domain's spells instead of one of her usual spells, but never more than one domain spell of each level. If she is a spellcaster who keeps a spellbook as a wizard does, then she must find or purchase a scroll of that spell and pay the usual price to scribe the spell into her spellbook. In cases where the spell is only divine the wizard may scribe a divine scroll into his book. The wizard then may memorize one domain spell of each level each day. If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known. Once the domain spell is known, the sorcerer may cast it freely. Unless the prestige class specifies otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I'm going to assume OA stuff is fine since maho-tsukai is listed in the handbook.

    The shaman runs into the same "we don't know if it's dysfunctional or not but something's screwy" issue with its unarmed strikes as the monk does.

    Female Shinomen Naga of all types can turn their snake tails into human legs. But it never actually tells us how that translates into height. The top of their heads generally end up at a height about equal to a third of their length at rest, and it's not unreasonable to assume that's how tall they are in human form... except on the low end a Greensnake Naga is only 10 feet long, giving us a medium humanoid the same size as your average gnome.

    Not a dysfunction, but while I'm trawling the book/update I might as well mention it: the Constrictor Naga is a huge humanoid. Back when OA was 3.0, it occupied a 10x5 space. In 3.5 they did away with that and made it's space... 15x15? Also it only has 20 ft movement, despite being the largest type of naga and every other type getting 30 ft.

    The passage weapon ability allows a weapon to open a portal to the Spirit World as a plane shift once a day, except that it actually opens a portal that any character can travel through in either direction(so nothing like plane shift really). It also says that the portal stays open for d4 rounds, but once it closes "it cannot be opened again." Does this mean that you can't open a portal to the same place on the plane more than once? That you can't open a portal in the same location on the prime material? Your guess is as good as mine since after those d4 rounds the portal doesn't exist anymore.

    The displacement weapon ability "makes its wielder appear to be standing right next to his actual location, just like the displacement spell. Only problem is, unlike blur, the visual effect of displacement doesn't actually cause the miss chance for displacement by RAW since they're two separate effects of the spell. So while the weapon makes you look like you're somewhere else, it doesn't actually help you in any way.
    Last edited by nailbudday; 2017-01-25 at 01:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Planar Travel (Su):
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual II
    Gem dragons have the innate ability to pass instantly between the Material Plane and the Inner Planes, where they often make their homes.
    OK...
    Except...
    How, exactly, it works?
    For example, how often it can be used?
    Or how precise is it (i. e. - is it possible to get to one particular place on a plane)?

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Detect magic is itself magical, which can cause problems.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Bone knight from Five Nations gets all sorts of goodies, including some neato magic armor, a spooky skeleton horse, and 9/10 casting progression. It even lets you keep your paladin class features and gives you extra spells on your paladin spell list from the cleric list... but only if your only casting class before taking the prc was paladin. This makes perfect sense since it's obviously supposed to be an upgrade for pallies and WotC realized that they needed all the help they could get. Where it gets weird is that if you're a cleric 1/Paladin X/Bone Knight 2 you don't get those extra spells, even if you don't have access to them through cleric casting.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Gravity technically has no effect. There is no stated trigger for falling, and no requirement of being on a surface to jump. So you can just run straight up the air if you want to.

    Man, RAW is fun.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanyo View Post
    Gravity technically has no effect. There is no stated trigger for falling, and no requirement of being on a surface to jump. So you can just run straight up the air if you want to.

    Man, RAW is fun.
    Discussion has been had:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Material Plane
    The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does. This is the default plane for most adventures.
    Quote Originally Posted by Normal Gravity
    Most planes have gravity similar to that of the Material Plane. The usual rules for ability scores, carrying capacity, and encumbrance apply. Unless otherwise noted in a description, it is assumed every plane has the normal gravity trait.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    That said, there's no actual written limit on what you can do while falling. Let's assume that if you only have a landspeed you don't get to move (laterally) unless you've got some shenanigans going on like an Elocater since you're hurtling downwards in free fall; your turn still come up in initiative order if the fall is long enough though. So what happens if you've got some way of becoming Ethereal during movement like a Phase Cloak? Do you get to move sideways since ethereal creatures don't fall or does falling preclude the movement to start with?

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I think I found another Hellfire Warlock-type dysfunction of Strongheart Vest. It gives constant PP gain without limit for nothing but maybe an action. The trick is, essentially, that Body Fuel lets you get 2 PP for 1 point of Ability Burn to Strength, Constitution and Dexterity. Strongheart Vest's example text lists all three types of ability damage, but ability burn might not count as ability damage. And Body Fuel doesn't list the type of action used, so it probably defaults to standard action.

    Granted, it pales in comparison to the Bestow Power loop, but it's less overwhelmingly abusive, given that it scales less with Essentia invested and doesn't scale with Overchannel and ML.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2017-02-06 at 08:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Well I was going to say that Strongheart Vest didn't stop burn because it only stops ability damage and burn isn't explicitly that but, it totally is a type of damage so I guess it does.

    Is there any situation where Shape Soulmeld is a bad feat choice?

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by nailbudday View Post
    Well I was going to say that Strongheart Vest didn't stop burn because it only stops ability damage and burn isn't explicitly that but, it totally is a type of damage so I guess it does.

    Is there any situation where Shape Soulmeld is a bad feat choice?
    Given that it gives almost anything from a set of classes where "do everything somewhat" is the point of there existence... Not really... Also, the exact text for Body Fuel calls it Ability Burn Damage, so it is explicitly a type of ability damage for Body Fuel's purposes.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Ability burn "cannot be magically or psionically healed—it goes away only through natural healing." Whether or not Incarnum (a Su ability) counts as magic or natural is anyone's guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
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    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Ability burn "cannot be magically or psionically healed—it goes away only through natural healing." Whether or not Incarnum (a Su ability) counts as magic or natural is anyone's guess.
    It cannot be healed magically, resisted is perfectly fine by RAW.

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by nailbudday View Post
    Well I was going to say that Strongheart Vest didn't stop burn because it only stops ability damage and burn isn't explicitly that but, it totally is a type of damage so I guess it does.

    Is there any situation where Shape Soulmeld is a bad feat choice?
    When you need other feats more, or when you don't qualify for it.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Just noticed one small thing...
    Dragon #321 have two PrCs: Infused Warrior and Infused Spellcaster - they are mostly the same, except Infused Warrior have full BAB, d12, and good Fort., and Infused Spellcaster - 3/4, d8, good Will, and 5/10 CL progression
    So, Celestial Power IV (at capstone) - if "your" Celestial is Solar, then you will be able 1/day to make one of your arrows count as Slaying Arrow.
    (Keyed creatures for Slaying Arrow designate when you use Celestial Power IV)
    Nowhere in the RAW it doesn't say you can't designate Slaying Arrow to kill Outsider (good)

  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Could you explain what the problem with this is?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Detect magic is itself magical, which can cause problems.
    The area of effect of Detect Magic doesn't include the caster:
    A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won’t go around corners.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Solar helping kill other Celestials
    Also, unlike many other Good-oriented classes, Infused doesn't have any "ex-" clause, thus you even can't fall for shooting some angels

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Solar helping kill other Celestials
    Also, unlike many other Good-oriented classes, Infused doesn't have any "ex-" clause, thus you even can't fall for shooting some angels
    So what? Good vs Good warfare is a thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Sidewinder Monk from Dragon 331 (page 89) is meant to use Bluff.

    Bluff isn't a class skill for the Monk nor for this variant class.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Pine View Post
    The area of effect of Detect Magic doesn't include the caster:
    Really? I don't care, because it detects magical auras which are given out by SPELLS, not MAGICAL CREATURES. Detect magic is itself a SPELL.

    Do I have to explain the problem with this to you? I mean, it's already explained in the link in the post that you just quoted, so maybe I do.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Really? I don't care, because it detects magical auras which are given out by SPELLS, not MAGICAL CREATURES. Detect magic is itself a SPELL.

    Do I have to explain the problem with this to you? I mean, it's already explained in the link in the post that you just quoted, so maybe I do.
    So much aggression. What he's saying is that since Detect Magic pings stuff in a cone that doesn't include you, and you're the source of the spell, the aura of Detect Magic is not in the area of Detect Magic so it doesn't detect itself.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by nailbudday View Post
    So much aggression. What he's saying is that since Detect Magic pings stuff in a cone that doesn't include you, and you're the source of the spell, the aura of Detect Magic is not in the area of Detect Magic so it doesn't detect itself.
    "Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft."

    Spells (and magic items), not creatures, are the sources of magic auras:

    "A magical aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a magic item)."

    Is that clear to you now?

    EDIT: If it ISN'T clear, take a look at Magic Aura:

    "You alter an item’s aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical, or a magic item of a kind you specify, or the subject of a spell you specify."

    Not the caster. The subject. Spells, not their casters, emanate magical auras.
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2017-02-07 at 07:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    I'm aware that the spell is the thing creating the aura. The spell, however, is centered on you, the caster, and the area is a 60 foot cone that, per the rules for for cone effect emanations, cannot ever include the square it's being cast from.Detect Magic only picks up on auras from spells/effects in that 60 foot cone. In order for it to be dysfunctional as you're describing (detect magic registering itself) it would have to be able to detect spells outside of the cone, which means that it's not a cone emanation, it's just a radius and the cone does nothing.
    Granted, that might be it's own dysfunction since I don't normally play casters and I'm not familiar enough with spells that have a listed range and an area of 'cone-shaped emanation' to know if the rules cover how those work or even IF they explicitly work.


    Preemptive Edit: Actually thinking about it a little more, I assume you mean the fact that the area of detect magic and not the source is what would be registering, which i still don't think is a legit way to parse that, but even then the rules allow for that:
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB p219
    Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Quote Originally Posted by nailbudday View Post
    I'm aware that the spell is the thing creating the aura. The spell, however, is centered on you, the caster, and the area is a 60 foot cone that, per the rules for for cone effect emanations, cannot ever include the square it's being cast from.Detect Magic only picks up on auras from spells/effects in that 60 foot cone. In order for it to be dysfunctional as you're describing (detect magic registering itself) it would have to be able to detect spells outside of the cone, which means that it's not a cone emanation, it's just a radius and the cone does nothing.
    Granted, that might be it's own dysfunction since I don't normally play casters and I'm not familiar enough with spells that have a listed range and an area of 'cone-shaped emanation' to know if the rules cover how those work or even IF they explicitly work.


    Preemptive Edit: Actually thinking about it a little more, I assume you mean the fact that the area of detect magic and not the source is what would be registering, which i still don't think is a legit way to parse that, but even then the rules allow for that:
    Auras are in the area of the spell, and have nothing to do with the caster. Detect magic is in its own area. Detect magic detects itself, not you. Therefore, the first round of detect magic is pointless as there will always be magic in the area. Whether you are in the area or not isn't relevant. The source quite clearly the spell, not the caster.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    Yeah I understand that. You've said that several times. That's why I mentioned it in the last post: I'd always assumed auras registered from where the spell was cast and not the entire area of a spell in effect, which quite neatly fixes the problem you propose, allows the 'determine location' portion to function properly instead of just returning "the aura is somewhere around here but I can't tell you where" and is why I kept mentioning the caster. Unfortunately for both of us it doesn't actually say how/from where auras register so. Maybe dysfunctional, my money is on not, but it should still go in the handbook given that we can't actually know given what little the spell tells us.

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