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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default An Easy but Important Question

    Trying to make a list of ways to make someone flat-footed and thus vulnerable to sneak attack.

    List on?
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    Distract opponent spell (CompAdv, SC)
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
    Trying to make a list of ways to make someone flat-footed and thus vulnerable to sneak attack.

    List on?
    Let's see. Flanking, Being first in initiative, being tangled, shooting them while they're not paying attention, etc.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Sapphire Nightmare Blade, a maneuver from ToB.
    Death from Above, a maneuver from ToB
    A lot of Tiger Claw strikes in ToB that involve you jumping over the opponent
    Starting first in Init
    Being tiny and using the Confound The Big Folk tactical feat.
    Using the Gloom Razor tactical feat from ToB.
    If you want to flank the opponent, the Clarion Commander feat from ToB lets you flank your opponent for 1 minute with a successful intimidate check.
    Ring of Blinking lets you strike as an invisible target
    Ring of Invisibility
    Grease makes your target flat-footed if they do not have 5 ranks in balance
    Climbing opponents lose dex bonus to AC if they don't have 5 ranks in climb.

    EDIT: Ninja'ed!
    Last edited by Armads; 2007-07-16 at 04:25 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Level 4+ Ranger PC/cohort who's using the PHB2 variant (opponent flatfooted for allies' attacks for 1 round after a successful melee attack). He will be your *best* friend in the world .
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Ranger variant from PHII. Basically counts as flanking, but works even from 300 feet. (Ninjed - but I must add that it must be WEAPON attack - doesn't have to be melee)

    Not to mention Feint special attack. Maybe not very good, but Rogue can easily have high Bluff, so can use it if he need.

    Low blow feat. If you are halfling, works on most enemies.

    And, winning initiative, attacking from ambush, snioing is always good way.
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2007-07-16 at 05:27 AM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Feint in combat. It is a bluff roll which leaves your opponent flat-footed if it succeeds. Bluff is on the rogue's skill-list and, while it does take up a standard action but the bonus applies to your next attack, even if it is on the next round. Improved feint makes it a move-equivalent action, so that is worth looking into...

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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
    Trying to make a list of ways to make someone flat-footed and thus vulnerable to sneak attack.

    List on?
    I would like to point out that losing DEX bonus to AC is not the same as being flat-footed. However, if you are flat-footed you do lose your DEX bonus to AC.

    You are only flat-footed at the beginning of combat before you have acted.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.
    Also, being flanked incurs neither flat-footedness nor loss of dex to AC (You can be sneak attacked though, save for Uncanny Dodge or similar).

    With that in mind, carry on.
    Last edited by Lord Lorac Silvanos; 2007-07-16 at 06:34 AM. Reason: SRD reference
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Ring of Blinking gives the opponent cover so RAW he can't be sneak attacked (Unless you have a weapon that can affect someone on the prime material plane from the ethereal plane).
    There's a skill trick using tumble in Complete Scoundrel which lets you sneak attack or flank someone with a high tumble check DC.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Funkyodor View Post
    Ring of Blinking gives the opponent cover so RAW he can't be sneak attacked (Unless you have a weapon that can affect someone on the prime material plane from the ethereal plane).
    There's a skill trick using tumble in Complete Scoundrel which lets you sneak attack or flank someone with a high tumble check DC.
    That would be Acrobatic Backstab, all it requires is a succesful tumble check to move through his square.
    It should also be noted that using Spot the Weak point, another skill trick which requires a similarly high Spot check allows you to make your next attack against that target as a touch attack, so using both, you'd just have to Sneak Attack against an AC of 10.
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Suprised no one has said it yet, but displacement is a much superior form of blinking that doesn't incure the miss chance on the "you stabbing stuff" end. It does give the miss chance on the "stuff stabbing you" end though. You are also counted as having concelment, so you can sneak attack all day. At 20k, a cloak of minor displacement (20%) is a great buy for a rogue. The greater cloak, although it has 50% miss chance, is only active for a few rounds per day, while the lesser is continuous. Also, because it doesn't say activating the greater cloak is a free action, like boots of haste do, the cloak falls under the default rules of activating a magic item, ie a standard action. So you spend a whole round effectively of your displacement activating the cloak, when you could be gleefully shanking an opponent in the kidneys. It's dumb, but yeah, you do pay more for less.

    Happy stabbing!
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos5150 View Post
    That would be Acrobatic Backstab, all it requires is a succesful tumble check to move through his square.
    It should also be noted that using Spot the Weak point, another skill trick which requires a similarly high Spot check allows you to make your next attack against that target as a touch attack, so using both, you'd just have to Sneak Attack against an AC of 10.
    Spot the Weak Point uses a standard action to allow you to make your next attack a touch attack as long as it is made before your next turn. It's almost 'True Strike'. Of course the problem is the same except you can't make Spot the Weak Point into a swift action with a metamagic.

    Regardless, you'd have to use it one round and then do the Acrobatic Backstab in the next to gain to advantage you stated. Not bad for an essetially automatic sneak attack, but I feel taking 2 rounds to do it is sub-optimal.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Raptor School tactical feat from CW

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Armor Lock spell from Complete Scoundrel, which is a 1st level Wizard and Bard spell.

    If you're playing the superior Psychic Rogue (Mind Cripple FTW!) you can use Cloud Mind to gain Invisibility. Or you can use Concealing Amorphia (which grants 20% concealment) which allows you to make a Hide check whenever you want, essentially granting you the Hide in Plain Sight ability.

    But at mid levels, its pretty much required that the party's arcane spellcaster cast Greater Invisibility on the party Rogue. This is the simplest and usually best method. It also means that you don't have to waste feats or class levels trying to qualify for Sneak Attack with some convoluted method.

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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Blink works just fine for sneak attacks. You strike as an invisible creature. The reason you have a miss chance is that you sometimes blink out just when you're about to hit, and that won't interfere with your ability to "see the target well enough to pick a vital spot". Strictly by the RAW, no rule says you can't sneak attack a target if you have a miss chance. (The rule is; "a rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment").

    Displacement (spell or item) does not let you ignore your opponent's dexterity modifier to AC, so no sneak attack.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    The Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior can at level 5 feint as a free action (that he can take 10 on) when armed with a dagger, kukri or punching dagger.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Island of Blades - Shadow Stance from ToB
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    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Leon View Post
    Island of Blades - Shadow Stance from ToB
    If you read the actual text of the stance rather than the summary, it just makes it easier to flank rather than making flanking automatic. You still need an ally to flank with, he just doesn't need to be on the opposite side.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Naga-Darmag View Post
    The Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior can at level 5 feint as a free action (that he can take 10 on) when armed with a dagger, kukri or punching dagger.
    They errata'd the Invisible Blade to make it pretty useless. "The invisible blade can use his uncanny feint ability once per round." Thus, Sneak Attack only applies to the first hit of each full attack action. If you have some burning desire to play a sub-optimal dagger wielding Skill Monkey, I would suggest using the writer's original version of the PrC. Although its still a weak PrC, it offers benefits that the five level version lacks.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Um... Can't you make a sucessful bluff check to make your enemy flatfooted in the next round? I thinks its called feinting, but right now I'm too lazy to look it up.

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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by bugsysservant View Post
    Um... Can't you make a sucessful bluff check to make your enemy flatfooted in the next round? I thinks its called feinting, but right now I'm too lazy to look it up.
    Feinting makes them lose their Dodge bonus to AC, but does not make them flat-footed.

    Only "hasn't taken an action yet in this encounter" actually makes people flat-footed, except for effects (such as Tome of Battle maneuvers) that actually say they treat the target as flat-footed.
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Feinting makes them lose their Dodge bonus to AC, but does not make them flat-footed.

    Only "hasn't taken an action yet in this encounter" actually makes people flat-footed, except for effects (such as Tome of Battle maneuvers) that actually say they treat the target as flat-footed.
    But you can still sneak-attack when they lose their Dex bonus to AC, right?
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Feinting makes them lose their Dodge bonus to AC, but does not make them flat-footed.

    Only "hasn't taken an action yet in this encounter" actually makes people flat-footed, except for effects (such as Tome of Battle maneuvers) that actually say they treat the target as flat-footed.
    Looked it up. Straight out of the PHB- "If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it."

    So, he does lose his Dex. bonus, which makes him flat footed, no?

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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Here is the rule on how to Feint.

    As a STANDARD action, you can make a Bluff check opposed by your enemy's Sense Motive + BAB. If you succeed, then "the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)." Which makes him qualify for Sneak Attack.

    If you're stupid enough to waste a feat on Improved Feint, then its a Move action. Either way, your Sneak Attack only applies to one attack. It's a very inefficient way to kill your enemy, since virtually every Sneak Attack build will have multiple attacks per round.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iku Rex View Post
    Blink works just fine for sneak attacks. You strike as an invisible creature. The reason you have a miss chance is that you sometimes blink out just when you're about to hit, and that won't interfere with your ability to "see the target well enough to pick a vital spot". Strictly by the RAW, no rule says you can't sneak attack a target if you have a miss chance. (The rule is; "a rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment").
    And Greater Blink works even better. It only blinks when the opponent would be attacking you, so your attacks are done normally. Its in the complete arcane, by the way.

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by bugsysservant View Post
    Looked it up. Straight out of the PHB- "If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it."

    So, he does lose his Dex. bonus, which makes him flat footed, no?
    You're getting confused.

    Being flat footed is a very specific state that only a limited number of spells and effects (mostly, as people have said, from the ToB) can force you into. And I'm not sure if even those abilities simply say 'treat the target AS flat footed for this attack', or actually make the target flat footed. As far as I know, under core rules, the only way to be flat footed is to have not acted yet during combat.

    However, since 'being flat footed' isn't the reqiurement for sneaking attacking someone, it doesn't matter much. He loses his dex bonus to AC, but he is not flat footed. If he became flat footed, he would stay flat footed until his next action. Since he is simply losing his dexterity bonus to one of your attacks, he is not flat footed.

    Since he's lost his dex bonus to AC against that attack, it is a sneak attack, even though he isn't flat footed.

    That help any?

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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionS...htm#flatFooted

    Yep, Zaeron's correct. Although being flat-footed and being denied a DEX AC bonus have pretty much the same effect on one's AC (you lose DEX and dodge bonus), they're technically different conditions. Both situations allow an opponent to make a sneak attack, regardless.


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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaeron View Post
    You're getting confused.

    Being flat footed is a very specific state that only a limited number of spells and effects (mostly, as people have said, from the ToB) can force you into. And I'm not sure if even those abilities simply say 'treat the target AS flat footed for this attack', or actually make the target flat footed. As far as I know, under core rules, the only way to be flat footed is to have not acted yet during combat.

    However, since 'being flat footed' isn't the reqiurement for sneaking attacking someone, it doesn't matter much. He loses his dex bonus to AC, but he is not flat footed. If he became flat footed, he would stay flat footed until his next action. Since he is simply losing his dexterity bonus to one of your attacks, he is not flat footed.

    Since he's lost his dex bonus to AC against that attack, it is a sneak attack, even though he isn't flat footed.

    That help any?
    I had thought that the main point of the article was to determine when a character was effectively flatfooted, but I appreciate the correction. Nonetheless, the condiitons are very similar, and will generally be treated the same (although I am unsure if a character can make AoO if he has lost his Dex. bonus.)

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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaeron View Post
    As far as I know, under core rules, the only way to be flat footed is to have not acted yet during combat.
    It's also used in the 3.5 PH to refer to balancing and climbing (mentioned in table) characters.

    (It could be a 3.0->3.5 mistake by someone who didn't understand the terminology.)

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    Default Re: An Easy but Important Question

    Someone grappled loose their dex bonus to AC.

    Or so V said in one of the Dragon Magasine. The giant crab creature dropped Roy on the spot..

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