Gods How do you kill those pesky buggers?

[Stryyke]

This isn't part of my next campaign, but it might be part of a future campaign that may run in tandem on alternating weeks.

The first problem is scope. In most settings, what is the scope of the various gods. I get the impression that they are omniscient, since players can "speak" to them regardless of geography. Can most gods be contacted across planar boundries? Is it an understood that they live on a different plane? Is there any way to access that plane?

The second problem is power. I doubt any party can sneak up on a god, so they will always have to contend with their power. But if a god could be killed by conventional powers, they wouldn't be gods. They would be powerful wizards. I'm sure there is a precedent whereby a PC group can just punch a god in the mouth and kill it; but I suffer a good bit of cognitive dissonance about that. Just having the PCs talk their way through, or solve some riddles seems just silly. Then anyone with a bit of luck and an INT score could defeat them. I'm wondering what other possible interesting final confrontations exist, where swords and darts are of no use. Everything I come up with seems lame, too easy, or no better than just stabbing god with a sword.

The closest I've come to something that makes actual sense, and isn't completely lame, is the Kryptonite approach. But I'm hoping other people have some interesting ideas.

[TheCountAlucard]

This isn't part of my next campaign, but it might be part of a future campaign that may run in tandem on alternating weeks.

What setting and system do you have in mind? These may be relevant.

The first problem is scope. In most settings, what is the scope of the various gods.

It varies, naturally. In Eberron, for instance, they're so distant that it's possible they may not even exist.

I get the impression that they are omniscient…

Not really. Even in some of the highest-powered D&D settings, they "merely" perceive that which falls into their domain as (or, for more powerful gods, before) it happens.

Can most gods be contacted across planar boundries?

Depends on the setting, system, et cetera.

Is it an understood that they live on a different plane?

See above.

Is there any way to access that plane?

More often than not, though seldom is it easy.

I doubt any party can sneak up on a god…

You'd be surprised.

…so they will always have to contend with their power.

Which is not always insurmountable.

But if a god could be killed by conventional powers, they wouldn't be gods.

This is wildly incorrect.

They would be powerful wizards.

Can they not be both?

(Rhetorical question, they totally can.)

I'm sure there is a precedent whereby a PC group can just punch a god in the mouth and kill it; but I suffer a good bit of cognitive dissonance about that.

You might have to expand on this.

Just having the PCs talk their way through, or solve some riddles seems just silly. Then anyone with a bit of luck and an INT score could defeat them.

By this logic, anyone could have invented the nuclear bomb, yet it wasn't until relatively recently that they were made.

I'm wondering what other possible interesting final confrontations exist, where swords and darts are of no use.

Just as a reminder, Balder, who was very much a god, was killed by a dart.

Everything I come up with seems lame, too easy, or no better than just stabbing god with a sword.

You say that like stabbing a god with a sword was a bad thing.

The closest I've come to something that makes actual sense, and isn't completely lame, is the Kryptonite approach.

Funny that you should mention Kryptonite, since the only thing stopping Supes from being a god is a lack of worshippers.

But I'm hoping other people have some interesting ideas.

I'll try and post something in a bit, I have a bus to catch, 'kay?

[Stryyke]

"I'm sure there is a precedent whereby a PC group can just punch a god in the mouth and kill it; but I suffer a good bit of cognitive dissonance about that."

To clarify, in my mind the concept of God requires certain things like omniscience and physical invulnerability. If they don't have those things, do they even classify as gods? You suggest that gods can just be really powerful mortals, but in my mind, they aren't gods. Just really powerful mortals.

Maybe I just need some clarification on what the term "god" entails.

As for setting, breadth of information is helpful. I have a setting in mind, but I like to look at a lot of other settings, and keep the parts I think fit.

[TheCountAlucard]

To clarify, in my mind the concept of God requires certain things like omniscience and physical invulnerability. If they don't have those things, do they even classify as gods?

Yes. The real-world definition of "god" is "a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes." No omniscience or omnipotence required. No invulnerability or immortality required. No actual power over nature or human fortunes required.

You suggest that gods can just be really powerful mortals, but in my mind, they aren't gods.

You're setting a pretty high bar there. Most gods from real-world mythologies couldn't pass it.

Maybe I just need some clarification on what the term "god" entails.

Done, see above.

[SimonMoon6]

"I'm sure there is a precedent whereby a PC group can just punch a god in the mouth and kill it; but I suffer a good bit of cognitive dissonance about that."

To clarify, in my mind the concept of God requires certain things like omniscience and physical invulnerability.

Well, there's your problem.

You may thinking of God versus gods. There is a certain ethnocentrism in assuming that all gods that anybody has every worshipped would have to be similar to the Judeo-Christian deity who has the properties that you describe. But most gods in most mythologies are very very different. Most gods are not omniscient. Most gods can be killed and often are killed. This is just a thing that happens in the various mythologies of the world. Now, if you want to have a Judeo-Christian deity in your world, well, good luck; there's very little game support for such a concept (even if things like paladins and clerics are really built assuming such an ethnocentric world view). If you want a polytheistic mythology that has any basis in the world mythologies of reality then you have to abandon such concepts as gods being omniscient and invulnerable.

If they don't have those things, do they even classify as gods? You suggest that gods can just be really powerful mortals, but in my mind, they aren't gods. Just really powerful mortals.

I have been thinking about this for a while, trying to establish the difference between superheroes and gods:

(1) Gods are immortal (but possibly killable). Left to their own devices, the gods will live forever (though sometimes, this may be due to the foods they eat), but it is possible that they will be killed (as in Norse, Greek, and Egyptian mythologies, for example).

(2) Gods have powers greater than most mortals.

(3) Gods may have worshippers but that's not necessary (as there are gods that are not worshipped).

(4) Gods tend to be part of the same family, so that we can say, "These guys are gods". Like, some of the children of the Greek Titans are the Greek gods (and some other relatives as well). Typically, the gods are either the guys who have been around since the beginning of time (and their relatives) or are descended from people who have been around since the beginning of time.

(5) Gods have a "portfolio", a particular field in which they are the absolute ruler. Poseidon is ruler of the sea; other gods don't do anything involving the sea. Hades is ruler of the underworld; the other gods can't do anything involving the underworld. And so forth. This doesn't work so well in a D&D setting where, say, if two gods are both 20th level clerics, then they can both cast any of the cleric spells, including but not limited to the ones involving the sea or the underworld.

[SimonMoon6]

Funny that you should mention Kryptonite, since the only thing stopping Supes from being a god is a lack of worshippers.

There was a story once where Superman was being worshipped and he had to tell people to cut it out. But does that elevate him to the status of a god? I would say no.

[TheCountAlucard]

To be fair, that's more a case of him refusing to let himself be categorized as a god. Compare to his Themysciran counterpart, Wonder Woman, who battles, calls on, and even occasionally has membership in the Greek pantheon; I wouldn't hesitate for a second to call her a goddess. Or Thor, in Marvel Comics - sure, folks can argue that he's "just" an alien or whatever, but there's a point where they're just refusing to call a spade a spade.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I blogged on this topic a while back - it all boils down to this: what is the point of the "gods" in your setting?

It's up to you whether the gods are really divine powers, or more like some uppity energy being from classic Star Trek. BUT! You have to decide, and stick to it.
(Of course, you might have more than one type - "real" gods, and fake ones, too!)

[BarbieTheRPG]

....
Maybe I just need some clarification on what the term "god" entails.
....

There it is. Decide what a god is in your setting first.

[Stryyke]

Excellent work guys. You all get an "A" for effort. Thanks so much for your input. Very good information.

Let's see how I can explain what I'm searching for. I think my new campaign is most inspired by the Daedric princes from the Elder Scrolls series. But my issue stems from The Wheel of Time.

Spoiler

Show

At the end of the Wheel of Time, Rand is tasked with destroying "the Dark One." Upon confronting the dark one, however, rather than engaging in a test of martial skill, the Dark One successfully convinces Rand that the very world that he seeks is no better than the world the Dark One imagines. Rand ends up sealing the Dark One away again, rather than destroying him.

While I wouldn't use that specific ending, it has me thinking about the possibility of a campaign that is very much D&D through the whole campaign, but with a different type of conclusion. Having the players tasked with simply touching the Big Bad with a specific item, for instance. Where the "final fight" requires all the player's skill, is interesting, but does not involve simply killing the Big Bad in the exact same way you just disposed of all of his/her minions.

[BarbieTheRPG]

Why not use mythology as your guide? Plenty of stories there about ancient heroes defeating awesome terrors. Usually they begin with a quest, which turns into a series of quests until enough magic items are gained to save the day.

The ancient heroes were successful because they had both human and divine help.

[Klara Meison]

"I'm sure there is a precedent whereby a PC group can just punch a god in the mouth and kill it; but I suffer a good bit of cognitive dissonance about that."

To clarify, in my mind the concept of God requires certain things like omniscience and physical invulnerability. If they don't have those things, do they even classify as gods? You suggest that gods can just be really powerful mortals, but in my mind, they aren't gods. Just really powerful mortals.

Maybe I just need some clarification on what the term "god" entails.

As for setting, breadth of information is helpful. I have a setting in mind, but I like to look at a lot of other settings, and keep the parts I think fit.

>To clarify, in my mind the concept of God requires certain things like omniscience and physical invulnerability.

High-level wizards, at least in Pathfinder/3.5, have both. They also can semi-easilly repeat most "godlike" feats you would find in the folklore, like whatever greek gods did, or 10 egyptian plagues. You may need to clarify a bit more.

>But if a god could be killed by conventional powers, they wouldn't be gods. They would be powerful wizards.

Nethys from Pathfinder, a god of magic, is a very high-level wizard. That's how he became a god-by being the wizardest wizard that ever wizarded wizarding.

Personally, if I wanted to define what constituted a god in dnd, I'd give them properties like:

• Immune to aging.
• Can't be killed by a lv1 commoner at all, either through invulnerability, physical toughness, or being capable of self-resurrection. Any means to kill a god require either special artifacts or for you to be at least close to their level of Badass.
• Can grant other people spells.
• Outclasses low-level mortals by far in their speciality and at least matches the strongest/toughest/wizardiest in the fields they don't specialise (e.g. a god of magic should be at least as good at melee combat as the best lv 1 fighter out there).
• Can receive and respond to prayers in some way.
• Very likely posess a host of immunities and/or resistances.
  

[Thinker]

Excellent work guys. You all get an "A" for effort. Thanks so much for your input. Very good information.

Let's see how I can explain what I'm searching for. I think my new campaign is most inspired by the Daedric princes from the Elder Scrolls series. But my issue stems from The Wheel of Time.

Spoiler

Show

At the end of the Wheel of Time, Rand is tasked with destroying "the Dark One." Upon confronting the dark one, however, rather than engaging in a test of martial skill, the Dark One successfully convinces Rand that the very world that he seeks is no better than the world the Dark One imagines. Rand ends up sealing the Dark One away again, rather than destroying him.

While I wouldn't use that specific ending, it has me thinking about the possibility of a campaign that is very much D&D through the whole campaign, but with a different type of conclusion. Having the players tasked with simply touching the Big Bad with a specific item, for instance. Where the "final fight" requires all the player's skill, is interesting, but does not involve simply killing the Big Bad in the exact same way you just disposed of all of his/her minions.

Just because a god dies, doesn't mean it has to stay dead. Zeus, Osiris, Ishtar, Quetzalcoatl (possibly, though he doesn't return to his worshipers), and Baldr (stays dead, but could have returned to life if all living things had wept for him) are good examples. In many mythologies with an afterlife, dying isn't the end of an entity's existence and there are often ways to return for those heroic, skilled, or clever enough to figure it out. That could be part of the arc - Dark One is killed and defeated, but that doesn't seem to stop the badness from happening. That could have been a part of his plan all along - he needed to travel to the land of the dead to retrieve some object. To finally defeat him, the players might need to stop him from using whatever mechanism allowed him to return the first time (which may have bigger consequences for the world) or they might have to find a way to use his death against him - maybe the new Dark One cannot travel across hallowed ground and so he becomes trapped in a church cellar since he cannot leave.

[GungHo]

It kind of comes down to either you can or you can't. If you can, then you branch off into "how hard is it?".

It can be insanely hard, to the point of "practically impossible".
It can be "exotic means only".
It can be "same stuff that kills anyone else, just more of it"
It can be "that's it?"

You get to decide where to go on that continuum.

[Freed]

Trick the god into changing into a weaker human form, or using a great amount of power right before the fight. Kinda similar to the kryptonite but not exactly.

[veti]

Just because a god dies, doesn't mean it has to stay dead.

In D&D this is true of everyone, though.

I would take a tip from the death of Baldur. For each god, let there be some sort of rules/prophecy about their death, and that is the only way they can be killed. In Baldur's case, it involved a weapon fashioned from mistletoe. Like Cronus could only be killed by one of his own children, or Macbeth (not a god, but still) could only be killed by someone born by caesarian...

So if you want to kill a particular god, you have to find out what their vulnerability is (i.e. what the rules/prophecy say about them - this may or may not be general knowledge, and may or may not be known by the target - merely learning this information could be a major quest in its own right). Give the prophecy a precise yet vague wording, leave room for player creativity. Then it's up to the players to engineer the situation necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

[Thinker]

In D&D this is true of everyone, though.

Just because default D&D doesn't treat death as a serious obstacle, doesn't mean that you have to follow suit. Besides, in many stories the protagonist returns to life after death (from Osiris to Heracles to Superman).

I would take a tip from the death of Baldur. For each god, let there be some sort of rules/prophecy about their death, and that is the only way they can be killed. In Baldur's case, it involved a weapon fashioned from mistletoe. Like Cronus could only be killed by one of his own children, or Macbeth (not a god, but still) could only be killed by someone born by caesarian...

So if you want to kill a particular god, you have to find out what their vulnerability is (i.e. what the rules/prophecy say about them - this may or may not be general knowledge, and may or may not be known by the target - merely learning this information could be a major quest in its own right). Give the prophecy a precise yet vague wording, leave room for player creativity. Then it's up to the players to engineer the situation necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

That would be a lot of prophecies or a lot of immortal gods.

[TheCountAlucard]

Like Cronus could only be killed by one of his own children, or Macbeth (not a god, but still) could only be killed by someone born by caesarian...

Well, no, Macbeth was prophesied not be harmed by one of woman born, but that doesn't mean he's immune to a stone crumbling off the parapets and striking him on the head. Or his bed catching fire.

[Fri]

There's an interesting disconnect with the western use of the word "god" here.

In some language (including my native) there are two words people use to talk about divine beings, "god" (to discuss about cooking god, god of gambling, thor, odin), and "God" (actual omniwhatever Deity with capital D).

So yeah, "god" is easily killable depending on settings. People kill gods all the time in fictions. Demigods or gods' bastard childs are kinda good at it

In Exalted setting, gods are involved in Celestial Bueraucracy, there are a couple of super powerful gods that rule over time or whatever, but there are thousands if not millions of minor gods that just maintain over a single lake or town or whatever, and the PCs punch them in daily basis.

In some settings (like Discworld) gods are shaped by believe and can wither into nothingness if nobody believe in them. The story of Discworld "Small Gods" is about the god of a major civilization that almost wither into nothingness because barely anybody in its civilization actually believe on it anymore and only do rituals for the sake of rituals/politics.

In DnD, IIRC actual difference between "gods" and "powerful wizards" is that gods have "Deity Level" and it bypass a lot of things and prevent a lot of things. Common way to bypass a Deity Level is having Deity Level yourself, that's why gods can kill gods in DnD, though particularly crafty mortals can also bypass it. Mortals can also gain Deity Levels one way or another and become gods that way (usually by somehow killing a god and stealing their portofolio).

[TheCountAlucard]

Well, yeah, English makes that distinction, too, though not everyone bothers to notice the difference. For the record, I've been limiting my part of this to "lowercase-g" gods.

And yeah, 3rd Edition D&D introduced Divine Ranks, but it's not like they actually de-legitimized anything else being capable of claiming godhood; it just boosted those beings that had divine ranks from "about on par with a wizard" to "about on par with a wizard, with some more wizard hastily shoved in there."

[Lord Raziere]

There's an interesting disconnect with the western use of the word "god" here.

In some language (including my native) there are two words people use to talk about divine beings, "god" (to discuss about cooking god, god of gambling, thor, odin), and "God" (actual omniwhatever Deity with capital D).

Thats why I generally the term "Spirit" to refer to any being that is merely "divine" rather "all powerful ruler of an abstract domain of existence" an angel or a demon or a fae is a spirit, a god is far more. it leads to less confusion.

[TheCountAlucard]

I don't see it as particularly avoiding confusion if people have to ask why you keep referring to Thor as the spirit of thunder.

(Also, spirits are not necessarily gods and vice-versa.)

[Lord Raziere]

I don't see it as particularly avoiding confusion if people have to ask why you keep referring to Thor as the spirit of thunder.

(Also, spirits are not necessarily gods and vice-versa.)

No, Thor is a god. a valkyrie on the other hand is a spirit.

[TheCountAlucard]

No, Thor is a god. a valkyrie on the other hand is a spirit.

Thor is not the "all powerful[sic] ruler of an abstract domain of existence." Please, make up your mind.

[Lord Raziere]

Thor is not the "all powerful[sic] ruler of an abstract domain of existence." Please, make up your mind.

No, he is The God of Thunder, you said it yourself. thats a domain. Rather than A spirit of thunder that is merely apart of many spirits of thunder. He is a unique powerful being that rules all thunder.

[veti]

Well, no, Macbeth was prophesied not be harmed by one of woman born, but that doesn't mean he's immune to a stone crumbling off the parapets and striking him on the head. Or his bed catching fire.

"No man of woman born" - you're right, that does leave a lot of possibilities. Anyone female, for a start. I believe the Lord of the Nazgul had a similar deal, with a similar loophole.

But discounting those, because this was Elizabethan theatre... "No man of woman born" could harm him. So, although he could theoretically be killed by crumbly masonry, if you were a MoWB, you couldn't successfully arrange for that to happen (couldn't push it, or lay a trap), because that would be harming him.

Obviously this approach requires a lot of customisation. But I don't think that's a weakness. Killing a god should be something pretty hard to pull off, requiring a lot of homework and meticulous planning. For some gods, there may not be any prophecy - then you've got to find someone who's prepared and qualified to make one, and try to prevent it from coming to the target's attention...

[TheCountAlucard]

No, he is The God of Thunder, you said it yourself.

I don't particularly care if you are able to find an instance of me using one article adjective over another, that doesn't make him the god of thunder by the definition you gave.

thats a domain.

No, it's a phenomenon caused by the weather. Lots of gods have some manner of power over the weather even in Norse myths, and Thor is hardly unique in that regard. Even if it was and Thor was the only being or spirit who could cause thunder to happen, that still falls short of thunder-omnipotence.

Rather than A spirit of thunder that is merely apart[sic] of many spirits of thunder.

See above.

He is a unique powerful being that rules all thunder.

Unique? Yes, but not part of your criteria. Powerful? Yes, but not the "all powerful[sic]" from your criteria. Rules all thunder? Not quite; at bare minimum, he's gotta compete with Zeus, the Thunderbirds, Jupiter, and so on.

[Lord Raziere]

Unique? Yes, but not part of your criteria. Powerful? Yes, but not the "all powerful[sic]" from your criteria. Rules all thunder? Not quite; at bare minimum, he's gotta compete with Zeus, the Thunderbirds, Jupiter, and so on.

Suddenly other pantheons now are in this discussion? These are all different mythologies that are mutually incompatible worlds and views of how things work, often developed without any knowledge of the other. What are the meta-mythological rules? I doubt anyone who worshipped Thor was thinking "oh but these other gods rule the thunder on that other continent on the other side of the world. Thor only controls our thunder." That we see any commonality or can put them into the same class of being at all is a product of our modern world sharing all this information and comparing notes.

I mean a flood being an apocalypse that devoured the entire world was a lot more plausible back when your entire world seemed to be an isolated village next to the river. They could not have possibly accounted for the world being round, a globalist society, or being able to get from one end of the globe to the other in a span of hours. What was all powerful then is quaint now only by perspective. But nevertheless they were believed to be all powerful.

I mean even the assumption that the gods might say, rule these domains in a geographical territorial sense with say, Jupiter taking Italy and Thor taking Finland or something is a thing one would invent to make sense of those two thing contradicting each other rather than anything the people actually believed, a meta-myth rule that would be established only as a way of setting ground rules.

Please define your meta-myth rules and stop silently assuming everyone already knows them.

[TheCountAlucard]

Please define your meta-myth rules and stop silently assuming everyone already knows them.

Simple: Call things what they are… or even don't if you want, but if you don't because it doesn't jibe with how you want it to be, don't act like you're doing it in this grand gesture of avoiding confusion, since it's causing confusion.

Having utter control, mastery, unsurpassible power over one's domain is not part of what makes a god a god (hell, even having a domain isn't). A god can have something like this, mind, but it's not at all as common as you're making it out to be, so gatewaying godhood status behind it is nonsensical.

[Thinker]

There's an interesting disconnect with the western use of the word "god" here.

In some language (including my native) there are two words people use to talk about divine beings, "god" (to discuss about cooking god, god of gambling, thor, odin), and "God" (actual omniwhatever Deity with capital D).

So yeah, "god" is easily killable depending on settings. People kill gods all the time in fictions. Demigods or gods' bastard childs are kinda good at it

In Exalted setting, gods are involved in Celestial Bueraucracy, there are a couple of super powerful gods that rule over time or whatever, but there are thousands if not millions of minor gods that just maintain over a single lake or town or whatever, and the PCs punch them in daily basis.

In some settings (like Discworld) gods are shaped by believe and can wither into nothingness if nobody believe in them. The story of Discworld "Small Gods" is about the god of a major civilization that almost wither into nothingness because barely anybody in its civilization actually believe on it anymore and only do rituals for the sake of rituals/politics.

In DnD, IIRC actual difference between "gods" and "powerful wizards" is that gods have "Deity Level" and it bypass a lot of things and prevent a lot of things. Common way to bypass a Deity Level is having Deity Level yourself, that's why gods can kill gods in DnD, though particularly crafty mortals can also bypass it. Mortals can also gain Deity Levels one way or another and become gods that way (usually by somehow killing a god and stealing their portofolio).

I think that the distinction between god and other magical being is largely arbitrary. Some like to say that a god requires devoted worship, otherwise its a fey, spirit, nymph, kami, daemon, angel, djinn, or some other non-god being. But I think that is false. Many divinities did not seek out worship, but they were worshiped anyway. If you believe that the river floods because Hapi makes it so, you will ask it to make the flood beneficial to you. Since many divinities have human-like urges and desires, they might be willing to do so out of vanity, greed (sacrifices), or altruism. Or they might do what they're going to do anyway, but it can't hurt to ask.