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    Default Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    How could someone make a mainly monk character who is actually playable and can keep up with Tier 1 and 2? Is there any way or it it just THAT bad that it is literally no match to an unoptimized tier 1 or 2 whatever you do with it? I mean like everything, from getting good AC, equipment, feats, class level dips, PrC's, skill tricks, etc. All 3.5 sources and un updated 3.0 are allowed, including dragon magazine.
    Last edited by flappeercraft; 2016-12-20 at 03:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Easy, just prestige into Sacred Fist or Enlightened Fist. Or, if you prefer, you could go Psionic Fist or Tashalatora, that works too.

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by flappeercraft View Post
    How could someone make a mainly monk character who is actually playable and can keep up with Tier 1 and 2? Is there any way or it it just THAT bad that it is literally no match to an unoptimized tier 1 or 2 whatever you do with it? I mean like everything, from getting good AC, equipment, feats, class level dips, PrC's, skill tricks, etc. All 3.5 sources and un updated 3.0 are allowed, including dragon magazine.
    Well, without using tricks like UMD to mimic being a wizard, there is no way a monk can keep up at all with a similarly-optimised Tier 1 or 2. It just doesn't have that kind of potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Easy, just prestige into Sacred Fist or Enlightened Fist. Or, if you prefer, you could go Psionic Fist or Tashalatora, that works too.
    That's not really being a monk, though. That's being a powerful class that happens to have a bit of monk tacked on. Remember that the OP wanted most of the build to consist of monk.
    Last edited by Tiri; 2016-12-20 at 03:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Somebody did a monk build for a challenge Emperor Tippy laid down a while back that could solo all of the elder evils by itself. There was enough cheese in that build to choke a rhino, though.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2016-12-20 at 05:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Oh, and there's also Master of the North/East/West wind. Those can keep up with T1s okay. Works best if you springboard in off of Enlightened Fist.

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Sounds like your looking for an unarmed sword sage instead of a monk...
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    A Rope Dart Trip Cleaver with the RAW reading of Cleave and Martial Spirit Stance would give you some nice CC, mild healing, and AoE damage. Add the Parry line and you become a decent defender of the party. You need to be able to tackle teleportation and flight at the very least. Martial Monk Devil Bloodline into Jaunter can help you with the first one. Flight might have to be delegated to race or item. Awakened Advanced Monkey is probably one of the best races ever for a monk even without template abuse. Uncanny Trickster might not be flight, but it can help you traverse the battlefield better and keep Jaunter going strong. A two level dip into Moon-Warded Ranger can let you double up on Wis to AC, which while not great, is pretty nice and the full BaB can't hurt.

    But honestly, the more I look at it, the more I want to scream Play a Swordsage or Monk is a 2 level class, dip Barbarian, Fighter, and Ranger for front-loaded goodies.

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiri View Post
    That's not really being a monk, though. That's being a powerful class that happens to have a bit of monk tacked on. Remember that the OP wanted most of the build to consist of monk.
    OP said, and I quote: "I mean like everything, from getting good AC, equipment, feats, class level dips, PrC's, skill tricks, etc."

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Personally, I'd suggest refluffing a Barbarian or PF Magus or the using a spherecasting class with the Monastic Tradition in Spheres of Power.
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    It's like this;

    The more monk* you use, the more this character becomes an exercise in WBL-mancy. Monk* abilities are kind of a grab-bag of "okay, that's neat" without a whole lot of coherence. You can make a perfectly functional character in spite of this fact but only if you know how to cover your butt with the right gear.

    That out of the way, you will -not- keep up with the T1 and T2 classes, period. The gulf between T3 and T2 is really only covered by taking on T2 spellcasting or a near equivalent ability, e.g. the sublime chord's advanced spellcasting or wild shape from ranger levels going into a PrC that soups-up wild shape into something better than just animals. Unless you want to get into enlightened or sacred fist or take tashalatora, you're just never getting there. I think there was a wild shape monk in an issue of dragon but that's your only other realistic option.

    Now, do you wanna do what's doable with monk* or do you wanna hit T1 - T2 power?


    *monk and/or PrC's that advance or mimic monk class features but do not give or advance spellcasting/manifesting
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    OP said, and I quote: "I mean like everything, from getting good AC, equipment, feats, class level dips, PrC's, skill tricks, etc."
    I agree. It's just that the majority of the build can't consist of those, especially the caster levels, because he already said he wanted most of it to be levels in monk.

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    OK, Think I've found a rather convoluted way to make a "Mostly Monk" that can hold up with tier 1...

    Lvl 1 (now ex) bard. Character grew up in the bardic tradition but just could not shake their feeling it wasn't what they wanted.

    Feats Iron Will, Spell Focus(evil)

    Lvl 2-5 Monk. Taken in by group dedicated to Hextor you learn your proper role as a warrior/assassin for the state secret police. Bard skills (bluff, Know Planes, and spell craft) continue to get honed while picking up Know (Arcana/religion) off Monk.

    Feat Combat Reflex

    Lvl 6-7. One of your contacts, a healer of unique province, teaches you the arts of Ur-Priest.

    Feat Combat Casting

    Lvl 8-17 Sacred Fist. At lvl 16 you are tossing 9th level Divine spells while still fighting like a monk.
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    What is an "unoptimized tier 1 or tier 2" exactly? Is it a commoner with a cat or something? Are they allowed to use their class features at all?

    I mean, you could go Sacred Path of Wee Jas for a bonus to Use Magic Device and try to use all the scrolls and other magic devices your Tier 1 class already could use, but you might still get trounced by somebody's animal companion.

    Oh my goodness partially charged wands! Of course!
    Last edited by Karl Aegis; 2016-12-20 at 11:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Monk is pretty good with god stats . 3 or 4 , 18,s should do the job to put monk on par with a Barbarian or Fighter . Can Mr DM handle that pressure ?


    Awesome Feats ?

    Chaste Life <book of erotic fantasy> + 2 AB points of your choice and fits with monk ideals .

    Flying Kick . A must have monk feat . + D12 damage on charge attack

    Circle Kick . Its kinda like cleave but better . You dont need to drop the enemy to get your extra Att into his adjacent friend and can do it every round .
    Last edited by Pugwampy; 2016-12-20 at 11:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Somebody did a monk build for a challenge Emperor Tippy laid down a while back that could solo all of the elder evils by itself. There was enough cheese in that build to choke a rhino though.
    Now that's a phrase I haven't heard before. Mind if I steal it?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Longarrow View Post
    OK, Think I've found a rather convoluted way to make a "Mostly Monk" that can hold up with tier 1...

    Lvl 1 (now ex) bard. Character grew up in the bardic tradition but just could not shake their feeling it wasn't what they wanted.

    Feats Iron Will, Spell Focus(evil)

    Lvl 2-5 Monk. Taken in by group dedicated to Hextor you learn your proper role as a warrior/assassin for the state secret police. Bard skills (bluff, Know Planes, and spell craft) continue to get honed while picking up Know (Arcana/religion) off Monk.

    Feat Combat Reflex

    Lvl 6-7. One of your contacts, a healer of unique province, teaches you the arts of Ur-Priest.

    Feat Combat Casting

    Lvl 8-17 Sacred Fist. At lvl 16 you are tossing 9th level Divine spells while still fighting like a monk.
    How exactly do you keep getting skill ranks in bard skills? A class skill gained through a dip doesn't stay a class skill forever: at monk 5 the maximum number of Spellcraft ranks would still be 4.
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pugwampy View Post
    Monk is pretty good with god stats . 3 or 4 , 18,s should do the job .
    Can Mr DM handle that pressure ?
    Except for the fact that even with god stats, if you try to build a character using mainly monk class levels, you will still end up with a bad chassis for the main purpose of your class and almost completely unsynergystic class features.

    You will also be unable to really prioritise one stat over another so in the end any one of your abilities will be weaker than that of a more SAD class with the same ability.

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    A class skill gained through a dip doesn't stay a class skill forever: at monk 5 the maximum number of Spellcraft ranks would still be 4.
    If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass characterís classes, then character level determines a skillís maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.).
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    you will still end up with a bad chassis for the main purpose of your class
    And what is his main purpose that god stats cannot improve upon ?

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Original comment ninja'd...

    NOTE: Replace Bard with Factotem removes the alignment change required otherwise and would make for a smoother transition.
    Last edited by John Longarrow; 2016-12-20 at 11:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pugwampy View Post
    And what is his main purpose that god stats cannot improve upon ?
    A VERY good question. No armor, boosted movement speed and dimension door say "skirmish," but Flurry of Blows and the self-healing say "stand and fight." High saves and Sr say "Mage-Slayer," but the lack of special senses, flight, and high-speed or long-distance teleports, and similar such counters preclude that.
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    How could someone make a mainly monk character who is actually playable and can keep up with Tier 1 and 2?
    I think trying to emulate other classes is a trap most monk players fall into .

    I see monk class best used in combat as a " disrupter. "

    A fighter or Barbarian can afford to just stand still and hack and slash till enemy goes down .
    A monk cannot do that , he will get slaughtered . So what does monk do ? Well if he disarmed said monster , he just made monster even less combat effective then him provided monster cannot get his weapon back .

    Or perhaps grappled monster taking both both and monster out of this encounter if only temporary could help his buddies alot .

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    No armor, boosted movement speed and dimension door say "skirmish," but Flurry of Blows and the self-healing say "stand and fight."
    Halfling Monk racial sub. levels, Races of the Wild

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Halfling Monk racial sub. levels, Races of the Wild
    Gets your I think one die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pugwampy View Post
    I think trying to emulate other classes is a trap most monk players fall into .

    I see monk class best used in combat as a " disrupter. "
    A shame that a medium BAB and almost certainly poor Strength make such things difficult to do.
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Gets your I think one die?
    No - you may get one more at 11th level
    After that - you may go Dragon Devotee or Hand of the Winged Masters (you know like those martial arts people always talking about "dragon this" and "dragon that"?)

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Monk's are playable if not mechanically the strongest class (there is a huge difference). If the party is a healing focused favoured soul, a god wizard and a buff oriented sorcerer the monk will probably feel pretty useful being the entire frontline/damage dealer.

    Dnd is a team game at heart, if you get the party working together a monk can easily help contribute.

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by TIPOT View Post
    Monk's are playable if not mechanically the strongest class (there is a huge difference). If the party is a healing focused favoured soul, a god wizard and a buff oriented sorcerer the monk will probably feel pretty useful being the entire frontline/damage dealer.

    Dnd is a team game at heart, if you get the party working together a monk can easily help contribute.
    If you have a team like that, the wizard's and sorcerer's familiars can probably outfight the monk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by TIPOT View Post
    Monk's are playable if not mechanically the strongest class (there is a huge difference). If the party is a healing focused favoured soul, a god wizard and a buff oriented sorcerer the monk will probably feel pretty useful being the entire frontline/damage dealer.

    Dnd is a team game at heart, if you get the party working together a monk can easily help contribute.
    "If the rest of the team focuses on helping you, you can contribute!" isn't the most useful metric.

    But to be more useful...
    • Wild Monk, from Dragon 324. Wild Monk 6/Master of Many Forms 10 will give you something pretty excellent. All the lovely brokeness of MoMF, plus Wis-to-AC in all forms and Flurry of Blows+Secondary Natural Weapons. Wild Monk alone saves you, though low levels are even worse without your usual bonus feats. Even without MoMF, it's not terrible, though a Druid with a Monk's Belt does everything it does better.
    • Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil) gives you swift-action Invisibility all day long, which is fun.
    • Martial Monk (Dragon 310) arguably lets you pick Fighter bonus feats without meeting the prerequisites, which is surprisingly not-broken but does offer some fun combos.
    • Decisive Strike (PHB 2)



    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    No - you may get one more at 11th level
    After that - you may go Dragon Devotee or Hand of the Winged Masters (you know like those martial arts people always talking about "dragon this" and "dragon that"?)
    Or Highland Stalker. That might be your best option, since it gives you the AC bonus you need to qualify for Improved Skirmish. But at a certain point you might as well just play a Scout with Improved/Superior Unarmed Strike. (Or a 1-2 level Monk dip, which does have some uses on a Scout-- they do so love their extra attacks)
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    There was enough cheese in that build to choke a rhino though.
    Is it just me or should Kelb siggy that one?
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Now that's a phrase I haven't heard before. Mind if I steal it?
    What, "enough cheese to choke a rhino?" sure, far be it from me to be the language police. All I ask is that, if you do quote it directly, you put the comma after "rhino" that ougth to be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostshadow View Post
    Is it just me or should Kelb siggy that one?
    Nah, it's not like its a special phrase or anything. Just the most colorful way I could think of to say "lots and lots of cheese" in the moment.

    I'm honestly surprised at how often I spawn new sig's. Am I really that quotable?
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2016-12-20 at 05:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Making a monk that is actually playable (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    I'm honestly surprised at how often I spawn new sig's. Am I really that quotable?
    You shall henceforth be known as Nappa, cause I'm going to sig this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    I'm honestly surprised at how often I spawn new sig's. Am I really that quotable?
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    What do you mean it's not that great?

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