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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    **8th Edition is coming in Q2, 2017. It is unwise to start a new army at this time.**

    Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground


    I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
    It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy the Dark Vengeance starter box.

    What's Dark Vengeance?
    Dark Vengeance contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

    It contains roughly 850 Points worth of Dark Angels. However, it only contains around 500 points worth of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, if you're playing DV as it's meant to be played, you're never using all of the models at once so the points difference doesn't really matter.

    However, in practical terms, the Dark Angels are only barely legal and lack enough Scoring models. And, while the CSMs are legal, they're almost 300 points behind and lack anything that packs a decent punch. You will also need the relevant Codecies for your faction as it will dramatically change the way you play the game as opposed to using the reference sheets that come with DV.

    How much does it cost?
    The Dark Vengeance box, one Codex, one other box of your choosing, and a Starter Paint Set costs you about the same as a Playstation 3 and one game*. In both cases, you'd be good to go for about a month. This author thinks of most boxes as console games, and Flyers and Land Raiders are the AAA-Title Collector's Edition game. The difference being that in this hobby you can use all your 'games' at the same time, and continuously.

    Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

    *Priced in $AU where everything is more expensive - although the ratios should be the same.

    Okay, I've got everything. What next?
    Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army.
    Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

    However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

    How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
    There are ways that you can play 200, 400 and 500 point games using altered rules. But, if you want to play the game as-is, the recommended minimum is 750.

    The game 'balances out' at 1500. Most games should be played at this level since pretty much all armies get a fair shake.

    However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list.

    As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1250 with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

    I did what you said and I still lost. What gives?
    First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

    Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

    Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

    And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

    Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
    Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

    If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

    Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

    How much terrain do I need?
    Up to 12 pieces is the official word. However, that can get crowded pretty fast if you've got big pieces.

    A better guide is roughly anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board.

    I don't like using Special Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
    Your opponents probably don't. Special Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Special Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Special Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

    However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

    So which Allies should I pick?
    Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

    I can't paint.
    Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel.

    But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

    Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind.

    Which army is the best?
    That's a loaded question. It depends what points limit you're playing at (at 1500 there really isn't one). But, there is no 'best' army. Plasma beats Terminators beats Mech beats Plasma. 40K is much like Rock, Paper, Scissors. None of the armies are 'best', as each army can be countered. Some armies are better than others, but there is no 'best'.

    However, as you play the game you will notice that your Codex doesn't have the units that beat another Codex. That's not to say that you haven't won any games, and it's not to say that your opponents' armies haven't lost several games to armies that just aren't yours. It just means that your army can't beat your opponent's army with what you've got available to you. That's why Allies need to be in the game.

    Wait, so there are bad Codecies?
    Yes. But, every Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. So, no matter what army you pick, you'll be okay within those points limits, or, you should be. If you find that your Codex/Army isn't doing well against certain opponents, and there's nothing you can do; You may need Allies.

    Helpful Army Building Guides


    Previous Threads


    Here's a bunch of Battle Reports for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2016-12-20 at 10:43 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Last Time in The Eternal Darkness...

    Magnus got pwned on camera, and Thousand Sons got tabled.
    Pretty sure Bobby Baratheon was still chasing critique on his army list.
    Cheesegear said Khorne Daemonkin have bad Marines, but mainly because of how Veterans of the Long War works in Traitor Legions.
    Miniwargaming made an extremely obvious one-sided battle between an Eternal War army and a Maelstrom army, and then played Eternal War.
    LeSwordfish did a Guide on Thousand Sons.
    Plastic Sisters of Battle.

    We return you to The Darkness.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2016-12-20 at 08:27 AM.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
    League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


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    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    lord_khaine's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Hmm.. i though the armless joke were in the lead?
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Cheesegear said Khorne Daemonkin have bad Marines, but mainly because of how Veterans of the Long War works in Traitor Legions.
    It would appear that World Eaters do best with things like Havocs, and not being Berserkers but taking "ordinary" CSM with heavy weapons and the like instead.

    So, basically going "old-school" to 2nd ed or even 1st ed.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It would appear that World Eaters do best with things like Havocs, and not being Berserkers but taking "ordinary" CSM with heavy weapons and the like instead.
    Far from it. The whole point is that in World Eaters, the addition of Veterans of the Long War giving them so many bonuses - specifically Furious Charge and Fearless - is that Chaos Space Marines are now equivalent to Berzerkers for 4 Points less per model, with access to Meltaguns. The only thing Berzerkers have over regular Chaos Marines is the WS5, which doesn't matter.

    Then you go to a Chaos Warband, where Chaos Marines remain Objective Secured (i.e; Good), while the Maelstrom of Gore, is not...And Chaos Marines are still 4 Points less than Berzerkers. If you're running the Blood Host Detachment - where a Warband is still Core - you still get the free movement, and a Lord can still go into a Chaos Marine unit with the Talisman. On foot, still works perfectly. But you can still go in Rhinos if you want to, because Vehicles are still important sometimes.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
    League of Legends Name: Cheesegear
    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


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    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Wasn't that exactly the point I was trying to make - that the best World Eaters armies now will have CSM instead of berserkers - because of Traitor Legions?
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Wraith's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Just for easy reference since it's on the front page (and not at all so that I can just subscribe to the new thread...) here's the link to Plastic Sisters of Battle.

    New St. Celestine and Seraphim bodyguards
    Monstrous Creature-sized Mechanicus Arch-Magos-Thing
    Return of the coolest Inquistor Lady equipped with Condemnor Boltgun (Seriously BoLS - read a freakin' codex once in a while, it's not THAT hard...)

    Have to admit, despite the potential for skub-related shenanigans, Celestine looks pretty good and has met with virtually universal approval from everyone I know.
    ~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
    RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
    17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
    Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    The AdMech arch-magos guy reminds me (in pose) of the Necron Tomb Stalker from Forgeworld, just with a tech-priest stuck on the front instead of a head.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Thousand Sons
    Everything has to be Mark Of Tzeentch. Ah. Oh dear. An awful lot of things don't care about that. Probably comment that only things with a natural invulnerable or that are going to sit on a skyshield should be bothered with. You get +1 invulnerable save when blessed Only if you have VotLW, so it doesn't work with Tzaangors and cultists, the two units that you'd like to take to increase your numbers 'cause they're cheap fodder. That's kind of good, but since half your powers are Tzeentch and donít have many blessings You always have Force available to you at least, and it needs to be a blessing that affects the whole unit, which rules out a lot of them as they just target the psycher. Shrouding will proc the blessing on every unit within 6" because while the spell only targets the psycher, the bubble hands out shrouded however, which confers to units., you don't get it actually that often. You and Space Wolves hate each other - and this time, that sucks, since Space Wolves are way more likely to be capitalising on that than you are.

    You can take Rubric Marines as Troops. Rubric Marines aren't very good, though one squad of them as your AP3 caddies can be pretty good.

    Thousand Sons cast powers. You really need something to boost your Warp Charge a bunch, like a ton of allied daemons. Thatís why most Thousand Sons lists you see are like 25% Sons and 75% Daemons Of Tzeentch. Daemons are better, soÖ just take more of them. Like all of them. Thousand Sons arenít good. Thatís the honest part: if you want to play Thousand Sons, figure out some way to use a different ruleset. Deathwatch have lots of librarians and AP3 ammo. Sternguard in a First Company Formation have Fearless and lots of AP3 ammo. Grey Knights are all psykers.

    Warlord Traits
    1: Adamantium Will isnít good - it doesnít help except maledictions or witchfires, and you should have a trillion dice to deny with anyway.
    2: Eternal Warrior. That's very nice, especially since you should also have a good Invulnerable.
    3: Crap.
    4: One extra Psychic Power. That's not bad.
    5: You get Deep Strike - or, more importantly, if you have it, you don't Scatter. That's good, but if you didn't plan for it you won't get much out of this.
    6: The ground near you is Difficult to enemies. You donít want to be charged so this is helpful, but itís not going to do that much. There's a 10 point relic that does the same thing but better cause it works even against enemies with move through cover. This is a terrible trait.

    Artefacts
    Astral Grimoire: Give something nearby the Jump type. That's actually a pretty neat trick - don't bother deep striking, just take some Jump terminators. Works on friendly units, so almost an auto take, possibly even worth allying in some Sons just for this. Lulzy if not very fluffy with World Eaters. Also helps solve some of the Sons horrendous mobility issues.
    Seers Bane: It's at-initiative AP2! It's also basically Strength 10, rolled against your opponent's Leadership - so, wounding on 2/3/4+. However, it still uses Toughness for Instant Death, which means Instant Death'ing a lot of things. This is not bad at all, but Forty Points is way too much, especially in a force that kind of doesn't want to be in close combat. How come this is the only At-Initiative AP2 in the entire book? It's also a daemon weapon, so it also means that it's only really suitable for Exalted Sorcs since 1 peril and then a 1 on your daemon weapon roll and your normal sorceror is dead, not to mention the increased WS, A and I on the Exalted that you pay through the nose for.
    Helm Of The Third Eye: Again, good, since you really don't want to be charged. This can also give your Rubricae the chance to Overwatch, which you want. Decent on Scarabs since they have twin linked inferno bolters, but yeah, unless you're taking the flamers on the rubricae (don't), then this isn't worth it.
    Staff Of Arcane Compulsion: This is actually neat: You really donít want to be charged, and this and cover together give your opponent a -4 to the roll.
    Coruscator: It gives your Inferno Bolt Pistol Blast and Soul Blaze. Thatís not at all worth twenty points.
    Athaenian Scrolls: Can prevent Deny The Witch rolls. That's useful if your opponent is really good at them, but so few opponents are. It could be useful against Eldar, but in that matchup youíre really just trying to be alive at the end of turn two. It's even worse than it looks at first since it doesn't even ensure that you get blessings off unmolested since the Target can't deny and you're the target for blessings. Lame.

    New Units
    Exalted Sorcerors
    Over what you'd spend on an equivalent Sorceror, these guys have Fearless, a one-shot lascannon and +1 Ballistic Skill, for sixty points. That's an awful lot - however, it does mean you can bring a bunch of Fearless ICs without needing Lords. It's 40 points over a Sorc and you get +1BS, +1W, +1A and +1I as well as the crappy orbital knockoff. It's usually worth it since that extra wound can be life or death for someone who's going to be casting as often as a Sons unit is. Strongly consider this, even if only for your warlord having an extra wound. It's also to be noted that they have a bunch of wargear unavailable to them that a normal sorc can normally take (most notably terminator armour and a sigil, amongst other things). They also don't make Thousand Sons troops like a normal sorceror (or Ahriman) does in a normal CAD, so if for some bizare reason you wanted one and some rubricae as troops but didn't want a thousand sons specific detatchment, then you're **** out of luck.

    Tzaangors
    Cultists with WS4 and the Mark Of Tzeentch for +3 points a model. They're the only way to get a lot of Cultists in the special Thousand Sons detachments, but wow, do you really give a **** about the weapon skill of your cultists? 3ppm worth of ****? Just take ordinary cultists - spoiler alert, the special Thousand Sons detachment is bad. They also get T4 which is ... a thing, I guess? But yeah, they're not great. also, they aren't forced to pay the champion tax, so at min size, as long as you don't take the pistols, it's "only" 2ppm more (50 vs 70) and if you are taking cultists in a Thousand Sons detatchment, it's only 10 points difference (60 vs 70).

    Rubric Marines
    They're still super goddamn expensive, especially because they have to take a Sorcerer - and the Sorcerer is tied solely to the distinctly underwhelming Tzeentch table. Neither 4++ or AP3 is bad, but you're paying so much for it. You can now take Warpflamers (so goddamn expensive) or Soulreaper Cannons (so goddamn expensive, and only one per ten(!) models.) There's really not much you can do with these guys: however, one squad of them isn't too bad. Note that the Warpflamers have the retarded Warpflame rule that makes Tz daemons shooting bad. Handing out +1 fnp is bad and you should feel bad Mmmkay? Having said that, if you hit someone with enough flamers, it won't matter. Did I mention that Tzeentch daemon Flamers (the unit) have the exact same weapon, are jump infantry, have 2 wounds and are only 23 ppm instead of 30, come in a min unit of 3, don't have a 58 point sargent tax and can deep strike? Remember that these guys die like flies to bolters, and even rr1's doesn't help them as much as it should. They're just bad, alright?

    Scarab Occult Terminators
    The sorceror gets one of his rolls on a table that doesn't suck. However, terminators aren't very good, and these guys are very expensive terminators that don't do much to suck less. At least they aren't Slow And Purposeful too. Being stuck with force swords instead of your choice of power weapon (and by that, I mean axes) makes them pretty bad. Can be effectively immune to non ap2 weapons in their formation though, so that's something. I'm also of the opinion that the weapon upgrades are a trap since you want them in CC and adding some more AP3 really isn't what this army needs. Others disagree though, so actually think about if you need the additional shooting and then decide for yourself. Also note that their hellfyre missiles don't come with frag, nor allow you to fire your bolter like cyclones do for loyalists. Oh, and they've got half range too, because chaos.

    Magnus The Red
    He's a flying monster that can cast pretty much anything... so long as it's from the Tzeentch or Change table. That sucks. He also has a Str-D beam, but that's warp charge five! What's the Warp Charge cost of Vortex Of Doom? He gets a good warlord trait, though. Heís not a Gargantuan so canít stomp and can be stomped, is affected by poison as normal. What? His Warlord trait is the second worst one! Also, removed from play affects him as normal (as we saw hilariously in the GW video), so stay away from gargantuans, their stomps can reach out of combat. Basically, he should be flying turn 1 and never coming down whilst spamming the 5 (or 6) best spells for the situation, which are probably the same 5 (or 6) spells every turn. Flickering fire (WC3), treason, prismatic gaze, gaze of Magnus, siphon, Tzeentch's warpflame and doombolt are the ones that should see regular use, with bolt of change, boon of flame and baleful devolution coming out when needed.

    All the below formations have the Favoured of Tzeentch rule: if you take the maximum number of units, you get to re-roll 1s on the Invulnerable Save. The maximum number of units is nine, usually, which makes this kind of a rip-off, since that's a ludicrous amount of points, usually on things that aren't very good.

    War Cabal

    Rubrics, Termies, at least two of various kinds of sorcerers. If you successfully cast a power, you get re-rolls to hit of 1. Not even a little bit worth losing Objective Secured. You can make this work (sort of) at max number of units in 1850, but it's a tight squeeze with almost no options available for anything. Needs further testing, but I suspect that this is the best of a bad bunch of options.

    War Coven
    A bunch of sorcerers - at least four. You pick a BRB discipline, and get 3+ to cast it. ďOh wow, this is comparable to a cyclopea cabalĒ you think? No. No, it is not. You pay the Mark Of Tzeentch tax on everything, you have to take at least one power apiece from the Tzeentch table, and if youíre taking four sorcerers you probably donít want them all rolling on the same table, in which case at least a few are getting nothing.

    Tzaangor Warherd
    Tzaangors are bad. Fleet and run-and-charge make them less bad, but theyíre not going to do much in close combat. Also note that the sorceror doesn't get the run and charge allowance, so if you want him to join one of the tzaangor units (to hand out fearless for example), you're going to have to give him a disk so he can't run when the tzaangors do and ensure that he remains in coherency and then the unit is allowed to charge. Not worth the hassle IMHO, but does provide bodies. I think I'd rather daemon allies instead.

    Sekhmet Conclave
    Fear is bad. +1 Toughness is decentÖ if only there was some other way in the chaos book to have Toughness 5 TerminatorsÖ for less per modelÖ and without needing to huddle each otherÖ and with proper optionsÖ ah, if only. You can take Magnus and be T8 this way as well as being the other core option. For larger games of 2500+, you can have an army of terminators that are T5 and essentially immune to anything not AP2, but then, at 2500, you'd better expect some serious AP2 firepower from the other side, so...

    Ahrimanís Exiles
    Itís a war coven, but if all the sorcerers are Exalted and Ahriman is included, you cast on a 3+. Ahriman is pretty good, but youíre paying a minimum of 180 points to Exalt the other sorcerers, and it has all the other problems of the Coven. 160 actually, but then why are you not taking ML3 and a spell familiar? Basically, Exalteds are 200 base, no exceptions. At least they don't all have to cast from the same school...

    Rehati War Sect
    Itís Ahrimanís Exiles, but with Magnus instead of Ahriman, and you can take Daemon Princes instead of the sorcerers. Everything has to be Mastery Level 3, and you get ďcast on 3+Ē and Magnusí ďcan target every unitĒ rule. Again, thatís an awful awful lot of taxes for some underwhelming rules.

    Grand Coven
    This is the Thousand Sons mega-detachment. You donít get anything not from the Thousand Sons formations list - so no Warband. You can take single Vehicles as Auxillary choices. In exchange for taking either the (bad) cabal or the (bad) conclave as core, you can re-roll Perils and attempt to manifest an additional power each per turn. This isnít worth it at all.

    You can do better with the Black Crusade detachment, since you can take a single squad of Rubricae as an auxillary choice, and then you can take good things for the rest of the army. At which point you're not really taking Thousand Sons are you? Look, its not possible to do this well.

    Tactical Objectives
    11: Kill Nine models. This is way harder than ďkill a unitĒ since you canít just pop a rhino.
    12: Psychic Supremacy: Deny The Witch. You should have enough psychic dice to just throw them all at the first power, or you could play more conservatively like normal and still have a pretty decent chance. Fear the smart opponent who has psykers (so you canít discard this) but chooses not to cast. If they're not casting, I'm still winning.
    13: Destroy an Armies Of The Imperium unit. Either easy or basically impossible?
    14: Score D3 points if your opponent controls no objectives. This will be really hard, since you have bugger-all for fast units - unless youíre allying a ton of daemons.
    15: Destroy an enemy unit in the psychic phase. The best thing you can be doing is casting a trillion witchfires, so this is actually reasonably possible.
    16: Manifest three or six powers of different types. This is actually reasonably possible, since the Tzeentch table has five types, and the witchfires count as different types.

    Aside from the fact that you're handicapped by being Thousand Sons, this table isn't bad at all.

    Thousand Sons aren't good. You can make them better with a hefty allied force of Daemons, but since they're worse than Daemons... look, try and find some other rules somewhere you can use for them instead. You can do anything you want from the Space Marine book.

    (I'm going to do some reshuffling - split the original into two posts, with Traitor's Hate and the formations in one, and the legions in the other.)
    Comments in green.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    +++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition v2013) (1500pts) +++

    ++ RH Vraks Renegade Unending Host (Renegades & Heretics: IA13 / IA:SoV v2005) ++

    + HQ +

    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade Command Squad (Warlord) [Flak Armour, Krak Grenades for Squad]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Arch Demagogue [Carapace Armour, Close Combat Weapon, Covenant of Khorne, Frag Grenades, Laspistol, Master of the Horde, Warlord]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Disciple w/ Banner of Hate [Banner of Hate, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, Lasgun]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑4x Disciple w/ Lasgun [4x Close Combat Weapon, 4x Frag Grenades, 4x Lasgun]

    + Troops +

    X4
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade Infantry Platoon
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Platoon Command Squad [Krak Grenades for Squad, Militia Training, Sub-flak Armour]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Demagogue [Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, Laspistol, Melta Bombs]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑11x Renegade w/ Autopistol [11x Autopistol, 11x Close Combat Weapon, 11x Frag Grenades]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade w/ Chaos Sigil ]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade w/ Plasma Gun]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade w/ Plasma Gun
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade Infantry Squad [Krak Grenades for Squad, Militia Training, Sub-flak Armour]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade Champion [Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, Laspistol, Melta Bombs]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑11x Renegade w/ Autopistol [11x Autopistol, 11x Close Combat Weapon, 11x Frag Grenades]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade w/ Chaos Sigil
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade w/ Plasma Gun
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade w/ Plasma Gun
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade Infantry Squad [Krak Grenades for Squad, Militia Training, Sub-flak Armour]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade Champion [Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, Laspistol, Melta Bombs]
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑11x Renegade w/ Autopistol
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade w/ Chaos Sigil
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade w/ Plasma Gun
    ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑Renegade w/ Plasma Gun

    1500 on the dot, how would you guys suggest getting this list to 2500?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Caxton View Post
    If you go down the L&D route (which I now dub "True Hydra") you are unlikely to be able to afford much of anything that can remove obsec.
    Which you shouldn't. The Alpha Legion Warband is already doing the majority of the heavy lifting with the Infiltrating Objective Secured Rhinos. Except if you aren't playing Maelstrom, there's no point in doing that, since you can't Ascendency/Supremecy yourself on Turn 1. Since, in Eternal War, you don't get points for covering the board on Turn 1, there's no point. Second, you don't need to remove anything. If you can plant your Objective Secured Power Armour on an Objective with your opponent's ObSec'd Power Armour, then nobody scores any points and the game continues until one you draws something you can use.

    Denying your opponent points, is the same as scoring them yourself.

    and it doesn't matter how any cultists you spawn if they are all slap fighting at a real unit.
    You are using Cultists wrong. Just like he did in the video. Because he was playing Eternal War and there's no other way to use them, except for exactly how he did. Cultists do not engage Objective Secured units. They engage other things that aren't Objective Secured, and contest Objectives and Go To Ground and don't do anything.

    Say it with me again, the aim of the Mission for the Alpha Legion was to run his Cultists into the Death Guards' Boltguns. There was never any other outcome. The guy played to the Mission the only way he could, and was shafted. This meant, clearly, that he was not able to use Respawning Cultists in the way that you're supposed to.

    Sure you have your warband to do some lifting, but how heavily can you lean on them to actually kill things?
    That's what Havocs are for. That's what Fist of the Gods is for. That's what Heldrakes are for. Alpha Legion shouldn't use The Lost & The Damned in the Insurgency Force. Say it with me, again; The Mission they played was already heavily in the Death Guard's favour, you can't **** up Death Guard, it's basically impossible, and Alpha Legion are one of the finessiest Legions in the book, which are totally easy to screw up, as you've just seen.

    The game looked one-sided because it was a disaster from start to finish. Just like most of miniwargaming's videos and why I hate them.

    Too many people who are theorycrafting this list are focusing too much on cultists on not enough on murder.
    And you aren't wrong. Unfortunately, 2-for-1 Cultists is a fun gimmick, and casuals are gonna casual real hard. The problem is, murder doesn't win Maelstrom. It just doesn't.

    I still think it will be tough for AL in maelstrom without fearless though.
    THAT'S WHAT CHAOS LORDS AND DARK APOSTLES ARE FOR IN THE FORMATION. EXCEPT NO-ONE IS USING THEM RIGHT. I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2016-12-20 at 10:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Cheese, you're killing me, please for gods sake link the new threads in the old one.

    QUOTE]
    every 1ksons psyker has a blessing due to having force weapons. you can use that power any time you want even if you are not in combat if you want that 3+ invul for your dudes.[/QUOTE]

    Ah, my mistake. I will upgrade that ability from "semifunctional" to "a bit duff" then - it's disappointing that I need to be spending precious warp charge to get a worse version of the sort of buff everyone else gets for free.

    1 also lets you reroll one dice on a DtW tests. and given the amount of good maledictions lately (and quite a few armies use witchfires despite what you think. shrike is the go-to answer of many armies to big scary monsters.), its not horrible, just poor.
    3 is pretty lousy indeed, but you should let people judge for themselves rather than announce it, perhaps they would see a use you do not. what it does is give the warlord and unit the ability to move through cover like necron wraiths. no movement penalties and no charge penalties through terrain.
    6 also makes every run/turboboost/flatout/charge within 12" of your warlord cause dangerous terrain tests, that's freaking sweet as it makes charging you and/or eldar dancing shenanigans risk deaths.
    1) I've got a psyker in every unit, and so anything maledicting me, i can just throw a thousand dice at it, quite possibly with a +1 for higher mastery level anyway. Anybody outpsyking me is eldar, in which case why even play?
    3) I don't think there's much point in just copying out the codex. What do you have in the codex that would benefit from this?
    6) I guess, yeah.

    Good points re the artefacts: though what "scary 1ksons melee unit" can you suggest?

    You forgot the come stock with AoDG, so its 45 points over a sorcerer. also, you forgot inferno bolts (meh), divination picks (not great for 1ksons actually), but most important you forgot +1W, +1I and +1A. this is basically a chaos lord and a sorcerer rolled into one and geared up. he's GOOD at CC. he's a psyker, and he gives important AT shot at unlimited range. he's good. very good.
    Ah okay, I clearly did miss a bunch. I'm not sure I agree that he's GOOD at close combat - I wouldn't say that about an ordinary Lord with a power maul and Aura. And he has one lascannon shot. For the same price I could get a whole squad of Havocs, who can shoot four lascannons, and can do it more than once. He's much better than I originally expected though, credit where it's due.

    you forgot +1T and that you don't have to buy a team leader. if you care not for the pistol (you don't), a squad of 10 costs only 10 more than a squad of tzeentch cultists. fair enough.
    Cultists don't need +T or +Invuln, though, do they? They need to be cheap and numerous? But again, yeah, better than I thought. Sorry.
    Unfortunatly accurate. except Tzeentch powers being underwhelming. the update made the tzeentch table quite impressive.
    Treason is just the Cabal power, except they get to cast it with bonuses, get it for free, and they get to roll everything on other tables. Siphon is potentially useful for grabbing a few extra warp charge to power up a psyker, but it requires 2-4 psykers near you to cast before you have a good chance of getting your investment back. Everything else just seems underwhelming.
    as for sucking less, the sargent has a true sorcerer statline, at cheaper than what a terminator sorcerr tends to cost. their inferno bolts are not amazing, but helpful, and having fearless is a nice touch. these are decent at the very least.
    "Mark Of Tzeentch" is pretty suboptimal - i'd definitely rather have access to combi-weapons, better close combat weapons, and a better mark.

    even the WC5 D beam. and do you seriously claim THATS too expensive? a D beam is outright bonkers. no power in the game comes close to it in how destructive it can be. that ALONE outguns a wraithknight be far
    I don't care that it's a Beam - It only hits each thing once. And sure, it outguns a wraithknight! It bloody should, given that he's twice the price and considerably less tough than a wraithknight! And the Wraithknight doesn't need to cast it's guns.

    also, if you view MoT as such a tax, maybe this just isn't the army for you.
    Well, yes. The two questions i'm trying to answer are: If I want to play an effective chaos list, what do I play? Not Thousand Sons, and no, you don't put Mark of Tzeentch on everything. And: If I want to play Thousand Sons, how do I make them effective? Well, you have a massive, horrible, uphill battle, with problems caused by the fact that bad things- like Mark Of Tzeentch - are bound into the list at a basic level.

    well, yea. they are tarpits. you use this to stick them where you need them.
    Oh, I can make a suggestion for where you can stick this. Sorry, couldn't resist. But if it's not fearless, it's not a tarpit. They charge, lose two guys, and get Sweeping Advance-d out of existance. I want Tarpits, I can have Tarpits that are fearless and keep coming back from reserve, or Fearless and Feel No Pain.

    Manifesting an additional power and rerolling perils are worth FAR more than you think, especially with the new tzeentch table and the Siphon Power within it. it makes chaining siphons for warp dice engines a thing, it makes zealous spending on throwing treason at the right place at the right time a possibility and it makes throwing tons of withcfires that denying simply can't be done an option. when playing a super-caster-heavy list, these bonuses are great. and 1ksons are meant to be super-caster heavy. especially considering the abilities that trigger off casting like +1 to saves, or the war cabal's rerolling shots.
    You need to actually roll Siphon - and something useful to siphon powers for - to use it as a bonus power. Same with Treason - which better psykers can just pick up for free. Look at what everyone else in the book gets!

    an enemy with psykers that refuses to cast? seems like a win to me.
    What if I have, say, one librarian? I wasn't going to get anything off successfully anyway, so why not deny you a free VP?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    I've got a psyker in every unit, and so anything maledicting me, i can just throw a thousand dice at it, quite possibly with a +1 for higher mastery level anyway. Anybody outpsyking me is eldar, in which case why even play?
    Pretty sure Grey Knights can Out-Psyk Thousand Sons.

    Good points re the artefacts: though what "scary 1ksons melee unit" can you suggest?
    Warp Talons?
    *vomit*

    I don't care that it's a Beam - It only hits each thing once.
    Vortex of Doom is the most destructive Power in the game, at WC3. If that Vortex can stick around for a few turns, the opponent is in trouble. If Grey Knights can cast it twice the same game, there's generally merry Hell in the other guys' Deployment Zone. What makes Vortecies so destructive, is that they stick around even after the Psyker that casts it dies. Can Magnus still do damage once he's dead? ...Didn't think so. I saw him turn into an ice sculpture and then the game was effectively over.

    Also, [Insert meme about Eldritch Storm, here]. FLESHBANE, AP3. THAT'S A GOOD IDEA. NO WAIT. MAKE IT A 10" BLAST, TOO.

    I can have Tarpits that are fearless and keep coming back from reserve
    ...See, you get it.

    What if I have, say, one librarian? I wasn't going to get anything off successfully anyway, so why not deny you a free VP?
    Yeah, sometimes I have nothing good to cast, so why risk Perils'ing myself? If I can deny my opponent a VP at the same time, bonus. My opponent not achieving an Objective, means that they've held onto the card for a turn longer than they should have, which means their deck doesn't cycle, putting them cards behind. If your opponent can prevent you from scoring points, they can prevent you from winning. The only reason for me to cast a Power while my opponent has "Deny the Witch is worth a point." is if casting my own Power would get me a point (e.g; Harness the Warp).
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2016-12-20 at 11:18 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Warp Talons?
    *vomit*
    Daemon Prince and Warp Talons with Mark of Tzeentch, plus a jump pack lord with the AP2 staff. Prince casts Cursed Earth and then chucks a buff at them for a 2++ invuln. Assuming you get both Cursed Earth and a buff, which requires rolling on 2-3 tables so you probably don't. Maybe you could go all-out on the trick and take Magnus?

    EDIT: Wait, no, i'm dumb in like four different directions, since they get the 2++ from Cursed Earth without the extra TS buff...
    Last edited by LeSwordfish; 2016-12-20 at 11:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    What would be a good unit to slap an Astral Grimoire into if you're sticking pure 1kSons? Mutilators? Makes them nice and fast, which is one of their biggest downsides, and then you can Psychic buff them up a reasonable amount.
    From the other thread, but I'll reply here 'cause it's the new one.

    Jam it in any unit you like that will offer the best protection to the sorceror carrying it while also letting him stay within 12" of the squad that he wants to turn into jump infantry. Oddly enough, Rubricae are half decent for this job as there's not too much other than a heap of scatbikes or Firewarriors that will be able to torrent down a 10 man Sons squad before the Sorceror (who's at the back obviously) can jump to another squad. Remember that the carrier doesn't have to be in the squad, just within 12" of at least 1 model. Muties can work, as can Oblits, Termies, Rubrics, Scarabs, even a big blob of cultists or vanilla CSM's.

    If you were asking what the best unit to turn into jump infantry for a phase was, well my personal choice would be khornate CSM with Kharn in there, though one of the better options would be terminators since land raiders are naff and deep striking is too risky, but jump terminators? That's scary when they're 31ppm with axes. But yeah, any slow killy unit is ideal for this and Muties take the cake for both, though when you consider that they're basically worse paladins, I think I'd stick with the termies unless you're fighting things that can't double them out.

    Technically it also works for daemons (and KDK), but I can't think of a slow non-vehicle assault unit in that dex - Maybe bloodletters? though to classify them as assault instead of chaff is probably pushing it. Oh, wait - Possesed totally qualify, though then you're actively taking a unit of possessed by choice and that's rarely the right move, though IIRC, they're mandatory in the KDK decurion/bloodhost thing.

    Allied Sons Detatchment
    105 - Sorceror, MoT, Grimoure
    60 - 10x MoT Cultists

    Inquisitorial Detatchment
    25 - Inquisitor

    190 points. The inquisitor saves you points over a TSons CAD if he's the warlord, otherwise just get a second CAD if you want to have your other forces as CSM.

    Your other option is a Cyclopia cabal and fish the new powers for soulswitch, but that comes with risks that you don't roll it, you fail to cast it or that it gets denied, so yeah.

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    World Eater Butcherhoarde

    165 - Kharn
    140 - Lord, Talisman, MoK, Power Axe, Sigil
    200 - 10x CSM, MoK, 7x CCW, 2x Melta
    200 - 10x CSM, MoK, 7x CCW, 2x Melta
    121 - 3x Termies, MoK, 3x Axes, 3x Combis
    125 - 5x Havoks, MoK, 4x Autocannons
    155 - 5x Raptors, MoK, 2x Melta, Power Axe
    32 - 1x Spawn, MoK

    Thousand Sons CAD

    195 - Sorc, MoT, ML3, Familiar, Termie Armour, Grimoure
    70 - 10x Tzaangors
    60 - 10x Cultists, MoT

    1458

    392 points to play with, more if you drop the Cultists for an inquisitor to be your warlord (keep the Tzaangors so you're majority T4 at least).

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Daemon Prince and Warp Talons with Mark of Tzeentch, plus a jump pack lord with the AP2 staff. Prince casts Cursed Earth and then chucks a buff at them for a 2++ invuln. Assuming you get both Cursed Earth and a buff, which requires rolling on 2-3 tables so you probably don't. Maybe you could go all-out on the trick and take Magnus?

    EDIT: Wait, no, i'm dumb in like four different directions, since they get the 2++ from Cursed Earth without the extra TS buff...
    If I'm not mistaken, he's refering to a crappy deathstar based around a bunch of exalted sorcs on disks. The one with the Seer's Bane has 8-12 attacks on the charge at Str 10 AP2 I5 (wounding against Ld but ID against T), then followed by [Number of Sorcs] x 5 which will be str 6 ap4 and you'd assume instant death from force. One of the sorcs could also be str 9 ap2 if you're lucky and roll iron arm, maybe even have +3 attacks and +3 I if you really lucked out and got warp speed too. The idea is that you take them from Ahrimans Exiles usually.

    Still, just the guy with the seer's bane is a competant enough threat to make many things short of a dedicated assault unit think twice about charging a unit that is normally completely harmless in melee (rubrics) or completely harmless in melee against 2+ armour (Scarabs). Jamming a Seer Exalted into a unit of scarabs along with using the grimoure on them from another sorceror is probably the way to go if you're running the war cabal and need 2 sorcs and a unit each of rubrics and scarabs. Still expensive and not as good as most true deathstars though, but good enough to be scary in casual games.

    Edit: Also, can't have a 2++ with MoT since it only allows you to have a 3++ max, though if you can get to a 2++ without needing the MoT, then that's fine, but at that point, why are you taking the MoT anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    What makes Vortecies so destructive, is that they stick around even after the Psyker that casts it dies. Can Magnus still do damage once he's dead? ...Didn't think so. I saw him turn into an ice sculpture and then the game was effectively over.
    ...

    My opponent not achieving an Objective, means that they've held onto the card for a turn longer than they should have, which means their deck doesn't cycle, putting them cards behind. If your opponent can prevent you from scoring points, they can prevent you from winning.
    It's almost like action advantage is a thing outside of DnD! Whou would have thought?[/sarcasm]
    Last edited by Drasius; 2016-12-20 at 11:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Cheese, you can't really take that game as indication to anything.
    The 1ksons list was poorly written and poorly used even before you consider the mission they played.

    The mission was an alter of war where woofs gets bonuses and 1ksons wins by simply having at least one psyker alive by game end.

    That's it.
    All you need is to survive. Not to do fancy things with Magnus.

    But he took Magnus, and ahriman (two warp charge devourers),no warp engines at all (not even the son's psyker spam siphoning) few bodies because if that and big squads rather than MSU. And then he focused on all the wrong powers

    Honestly I doubt you could do any worse with the sons. He made every possible mistake and then some (IIRC some woofs charged out of a rhino?)


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Starting to plan my Adepticon army for the Champs. Currently, what I know is that it's 1850, 2 Detachments max, up to 700 points of LoW in any combination. Which means big ol' Imperial Deathstars are mostly out, Chaos Deathstars are maybe still in, Eldar is of course in, and GSC is going to be amazing. Tau will probably not be great since you can't run double 'Surges, but Riptide Wings are still a thing and very much worth the detachment slot. Missions will be ITC/ETC style, so ObSec isn't as critical as it was last year.

    Not sure if I want to run a star of some sort or just like an uber-standard Decurion+DCult+Harvest stuff. There'll be a couple RTTs in the meantime to do some testing. I think I might just try a star so the games are easier to play.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Having had the misfortune to play against some 'Crons recently, I'd say no uber deathstar since it's just too easy to avoid and any player worth being your opponent will do just that. Decurion, DCult, Harvest and the remainder of your points on tomb blades would be my best guess for a strong list.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    I'd like to see Cheesegear's Chaos Daemons list building guide updated to include stuff from War Zone Fenris. Brimstone Horrors, presumably, may make a difference - and the new Daemon "decurion" type detachment.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Well here's a question for you guys. Is it better to tank shock with a transport holding objective secured guys, when if the enemy fails (at LD 9) you win the game for sure, but there is a melta gun in the squad? Or is it better to stay still and keep the extra shots while the guys inside move out to take the objective.

    Specifically this came up when I ran my Imperial Guard into a Ravenwing-Deathwing combo. 90% of my army was getting crushed, but it was relic so it didn't matter. The objective was deep in his deployment, but I had a vendetta with a Special weapons squad inside nearby. I decided to Tank shock a unit of bikes, because if they failed they'd run off the board and he'd have no other units nearby to take the objective. But he passed his test, then blew up the Vendetta. The guys inside passed their leadership tests, ran for the objective and held it. But then we went on to turn 6, so he just killed the Special Weapon squad and won.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Well here's a question for you guys. Is it better to tank shock with a transport holding objective secured guys, when if the enemy fails (at LD 9) you win the game for sure, but there is a melta gun in the squad? Or is it better to stay still and keep the extra shots while the guys inside move out to take the objective.

    Specifically this came up when I ran my Imperial Guard into a Ravenwing-Deathwing combo. 90% of my army was getting crushed, but it was relic so it didn't matter. The objective was deep in his deployment, but I had a vendetta with a Special weapons squad inside nearby. I decided to Tank shock a unit of bikes, because if they failed they'd run off the board and he'd have no other units nearby to take the objective. But he passed his test, then blew up the Vendetta. The guys inside passed their leadership tests, ran for the objective and held it. But then we went on to turn 6, so he just killed the Special Weapon squad and won.
    The question is moot. Vendettas aren't Tanks and can't Tank Shock.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    I don't see how anyone in the era of remove from play effects can anyone claim Magnus is good. He is literary one rolled 6 on the D table away from you being down a warlord and 650 points.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    A Guide To Treachery: Part I
    Guides to Traitor Legions and Traitor's Hate.
    With contributions from Cheesegear, Grim Portent, Boomwolf, and Drasius.

    This got too long for one post, so I've split it up in two. First part is general advice, and the Traitor's Hate book. Traitor's Hate contains some generic Chaos formations, including the Black Crusade Detachment, Renegade Knights, and Tactical Objectives. Traitor Legions contains all the same formations, but not the Detachment, Knights, or Objectives, plus a considerable amount of stuff for individual chaos legions.

    You need at least one of these books to make Chaos Space Marines competitive. Without at least one, you're going to struggle to win even casual games.

    New Generic Formations
    These are in both books.
    Spoiler
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    Chaos Warband
    Pretty much a CSM Demi-Company. Itís a whole bunch of stuff with Objective Secured, what else do you need to know? Well, lots actually. Itís a Core choice for just about all the forthcoming detachments, so knowing how to do it cheaply is important.

    Chaos Lord - 65
    Chaos Chosen - 90
    Chaos Space Marines - 75
    Chaos Space Marines - 75
    Chaos Bikers - 70
    Havocs - 75

    Thats a total of 450 points, and you get five MSU Objective Secured units, with the only real ďtaxĒ being the chosen - pay twenty more points and take Suicide Terminators. Not bad! You can probably make that contribute to your army properly for less than 600 points total, and then you get to take whatever else interesting thatís actually thematic for your Legion. Unless youíre going all-out on something unusual like Raptors, or you really really want a Sorceror instead of a Lord (though you can take one as well) this should be your standard force instead of a CAD. Your non-troops (including Transports like Land Raiders) gain Objective Secured, and you get double rolls on the boon table. This makes it easy to avoid the few detrimental boons, and max out on useful bonuses.

    If youíre taking this, please for godís sake find 30-odd points for a single Spawn - thatís enough to turn this into any of the Legion Detachments or the Black Crusade, and you get a whole extra set of special rules. Please. Donít make me beg you. Thirty points.

    The Lost And The Damned
    You want cultists? We got cultists! You can throw a poop-ton of cheap bodies at the board, and they come back from Outflank when they die. However, theyíre not Objective Secured, so they lose a lot of utility and turn into meatshields, and every time they die they give up a kill pointÖ itís the only way to get Cultists, though, so if you want themÖ you donít have much choice. Minimum cost is 305 points, so you could always take this AND a Warband.

    Helforged Warpack
    You get Daemonforge multiple times, and assorted buffs to one thing in the Warpack, including the Character special rule, which is pretty good since then you can Challenge scary thunder hammers etc, and a 4++ - Helbrutes get more out of this, since they're the only ones without a 5++ anyway. Those arenít bad, but the Warpsmith is a hundred points of tax, and do you really want to pay that much for them? On the plus side, you were taking three or more -fiend units if you were taking any, right?

    Heldrake Terror Pack
    Heldrakes are good and this is the only way to do it. The Merciless Pursuit rule is broken, as in doesnít function at all. Debuffs to leadership are only sometimes good. The rules don't honestly matter: Heldrakes are great, and this lets you put two in any army you want, without worrying about any tax units.

    Cult Of Destruction
    Pretty good! Shooting/attacking twice is nice, but limited. You have to stick close to your Warpsmith, so you're footslogging or in a Land Raider, and you have to shoot the same unit twice with different weapons. Neither of those is a crippling loss, though. Youíll want at least one maxed unit for the Warpsmith to buff, so thatís a minimum of five modelsÖ if you were taking that many anyway, (and hell, theyíre not bad, you might as well be) 110 points to shoot twice is actually pretty fair.

    Fist Of The Gods
    Itís the only way you can get the Chaos armour, and you pay the Warpsmith Tax. Chaos has a pretty full Heavy Support slot, though, so I guess you can use this to open slots for Obliterators. Unless you need that, or really want tanks, avoid.

    Raptor Talon
    Charging out of Deep Strike is fun, but will probably not actually work. You donít have anything to make Deep Striking more reliable* and similarly nothing for reserve rolls, and if you do pull it off, your charge is Disordered! (Remember not to take Mark Of Khorne, since Rage and Furious Charge are useless in a disordered charge.)

    This formation is just so weedy compared to the C:SM ones that do the same thing. Negatives to leadership is neat - Fear is useless, sure, but maybe you can Sweeping Advance? Unless you really want lots of raptors, Iíd suggest taking them in the Warband instead - get Objective Secured.

    *As Drasius points out, Warp Talons can benefit from Icons carried by friendly Daemon units. You can Summon a unit with an Icon, and then reduce scatter using that, or you can cast Cursed Earth, which boosts their Invulnerable too.

    Terminator Annihilation Force
    Compare this to the First Company Formation and weep. You get Hatred - you have this against 50% of armies already - and can shoot a bonus time against a single unit if you Deep Strike in. I guess you could take combi-meltas, pop a transport, and then combi-bolter a unit that comes out, but youíre paying a lot of points to Alpha Strike, like, a single Chimera. Alternatively, shooting the Burning Brand twice is not bad.

    You still donít have anything to make Deep Striking better. Again, I would just max out the terminator slots in your Warband.

    Favoured Of Chaos
    Posessed are bad, and this doesnt make them better enough. Remember in most detatchments, you can take a Daemon Prince as a Command choice.


    Black Crusade Detachment (Traitor's Hate Only)
    Spoiler
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    You should seriously consider taking this instead of your own Legionís Detachment. Free boon rolls are really that good. You can make this all a Legion detachment anyway, or you can mix and match Legions for the formations within it.

    If youíre not dedicated to a Legion, you should really take this. Chaos just canít keep up in a CAD without Legion rules, and it gives you the free VoTLW which is de rigeur for Legion troops. It's also the only Detachment that can take Huron Blackheart, Fabius Bile, or any named character not in the codex like Necrosius.

    Cheesegear points out that a Dark Apostle allows you to re-roll boon rolls, which allows you to get the best out of your free rolls, and your free double-rolls (two boons with re-rolls gives you a roughly 1/4 chance of turning into a Daemon Prince). That requires an allied CAD or a Lost And The Damned, which is 200 points minimum, so... if you think that's worth it, then go ahead. Opinions differ, though.

    You can also take a bunch of Sorcerors as command choices for taxless Sorcerors. The Cyclopea Cabal does the same thing, but is tied to the Black Legion - which do you want more, the Cabal's special power, or your own legion and detachment bonuses.


    Chaos Space Marine Tactical Objectives (Traitor's Hate Only)
    Spoiler
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    You have to use these instead of the "Capture And Control" ones, though if you're running a Legion you can use those instead - with the Legion ones, you get a choice.

    11: Destroy a unit. You can do this, right? The usual easiest way to do this is pop a light vehicle, though Chaos can sometimes pull it off with a Sweeping Advance.
    12: Manifest a power. Should be fairly easy. You brought Spell Familiars, right?
    13: At the start of each turn, randomly roll an objective, which you have to capture. Easier than a normal one, since if it randomly picks one underneath a Warlord Titan you get to roll again next turn.
    14: Make a Boon roll. If you took the Black Crusade detachment, then congratulations, enjoy your free VP. Otherwise, itís killing characters with characters - you can do that, right? Champions Of Chaos says you have to.
    15: Take an objective from your opponent. You need fast Objective Secured.
    16: Make a boon roll on your Warlord, which means getting your Warlord into challenges. Go bully some guard sergeant or something. The rest is random, though re-rolls (Dark Apostle) and the Chaos Warband can help you get the good stuff. Is an extra 3 VP worth getting your warlord turned into a Daemon Prince?

    This table is great if youíre taking the Black Crusade detachment, (2/6 as ďfreeĒ VPs is as good as it gets). If not, itís still pretty decent.


    Renegade Knights (Traitor's Hate Only)
    Spoiler
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    They're Knights, but spiky. That doesn't translate to any new rules, except that you can take two of the same gun, and - a major bonus for me - you don't have to memorise which is the paladin and which is the Errant.

    Knights are pretty decent, but everyone knows how to kill them by now. Chaos don't have much access to super-heavies or Str-D, and knights bring both of those. You can also use these rules to ally them to Necrons or Orks, both of whom have pretty sub-par super-heavies.

    Knights love being given Ignores Cover. Love it. Perfect Timing doesn't work, so roll on Geomortis. Alternatively, you can have fun following them around with sorcerers casting on Heretech.

    Thunderstrike Gauntlet: Unwieldy is really bad on a knight, since that means your Str-D is going at the same time as Chainfists and Thunder Hammers and all those scary things. Swapping at-init attacks for a AP- large blast is probably not worth it, although if you only ever use your knight for fights it can win then... sure. You bully.
    Reaper Chainsword: Chaos don't have much access to Str-D. Knights are speedy enough to get some good use out of this, so I would seriously consider keeping it in case you need to chainsword a wraithknight or something. It also keeps your knight cheap - two guns and you're seriously stacking on the points cost for something that is not as tough as you might want.

    Avenger Gatling Cannon: Messes up marines like nobody's business. Take two to wipe just about anything with a 3+ save off the map - and with Rending, you can have a proper shot at 2+ save units or light vehicles too. Probably the best general-purpose gun, and pairs well with the carapace weapons.
    Rapid-fire Battle Cannon: It's a battle cannon that shoots twice at 72". That means it's high enough strength to Instant Death toughness 4, and with two shots you might be able to sneak wounds through good cover too. I would suggest that the Gatling Cannon is better - unless you think you'll be making more than six or so hits per Large Blast.
    Thermal Cannon: If you can't be Str-D at range, Str-9 melta does the job pretty well. Chaos quite like high-strength AP1, since they only have so many ways to crack tanks at range. If you'd rather crack terminators/tanks than anything else, this is the gun for you.

    My personal recommendation would be either the Gatling Cannon or Thermal cannon or both.

    Ironstorm Missile Pod: You don't have much Barrage, and its lovely long range. Str5 Ap4 isn't much to write home about, though. It's a whirlwind. Do you want a whirlwind? Don't answer that, you don't.
    Icarus Autocannons: You don't have much access to Skyfire, and this brings you Skyfire on a tough target. It's also the only gun a knight can take that can fire backwards, so if you expect to need to charge backwards, this is how you do it. However, Drasius points out that against most fliers, the Stormspear will do about as well - when it hits, it hits hard.
    Stormspear Rocket Pod: Three-shot krak missiles. One thing knights are really good at is taking out tanks, and this will add a lot of firepower to that role.

    Meltagun: Helps you crack tanks. However, that heavy stubber is really only for shooting things you want to charge, so, it's not necessary.

    Renegade Knight Household: You get preferred enemy against Imperial Knights, and they get it against you. This sounds balanced, until you realise that if youíre taking triple-knights, then they can be taking triple-knights, and their formations are much better than this, and they get their own formation bonus AND Preferred Enemy, which makes this a joke.


    Traitor's Hate also includes the rules for Khorne Lords Of Skulls and the Trinity Of Blood. Both are noted down below in the World Eaters legion section.

    Some General Notes on Legions
    You can make any detatchment or formation a Legion formation, including Combined Arms Detachments and Allied Detachments. If youíre in a Legion, youíll have restrictions on what Marked units you can have. This will really hurt some units, who really want either Marks or Icons. You also get Veterans Of The Long War for free on everything that will take it, which is neat. You also get extra special bonuses on everything with VotLW - remember that this includes Daemon Princes and all named HQs, but not Spawn, Cultists, Tzaangors, or Vehicles. You're also restricted in what Characters you can take - only the ones in the codex are listed. This means no Cypher, no Forge World characters, and no Huron or Fabius.

    Marked Psykers can roll all powers on their godís tables. Thereís a few goodíuns hidden in there - particularly on the Nurgle table - and rolling all powers gets you a better shot at them. Honestly, though, nothing compares to the usual best powers from the BRB. As usual, plan ahead and have some idea of what you want to do.

    Many legions move things to Troops. Remember that this happens even if youíre using Formations - you no longer give up VPs for Big Guns Never Tire or Purge, and some things (like Deathwatch) will work differently for you. The best of this is Objective Secured when in a CAD, though.

    You can choose between the Legion tactical objectives, and the generic CSM ones in Traitor's Hate. You can't choose to go back to the standard ones.

    Black Legion
    Spoiler
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    All the Black Legion formations, traits, etc are unchanged from the Black Legion book way back when. The only difference is the Legion rules - you get Veterans Of The Long War for free now, instead of having to pay for it on everything.

    Most notable thing about Black Legion is you can take Marked units if you want. The usual restrictions on making things troops applies, so you can totally take a Nurgle Lord and all of your troops can be Plague Marines. You also get Terminators and Chosen as troops choices - though both are pretty expensive for what they do.

    You get Hatred against everything, and super-hatred against Armies Of The Imperium. Thatís not bad, if you can get into combat, but it's small potatoes compared to most of the other legions.

    Warlord Traits
    1: Cool, I guess.
    2: Re-roll Boon rolls. You can stack this with the Warband to get effectively four choices, but you donít really need that.
    3: A single flamer? This is a joke, right?
    4: It Will Not Die - Finally something worthwhile.
    5: Reasonable, I guess.
    6: Stubborn Aura. Not too bad, but more or less everything will be Fearless, LD10, or both.

    Nothing is a stand-out. Roll elsewhere.

    Artefacts
    The Crucible Of Lies: I wouldnít pay 25 points to re-roll invulnerable saves of 1, let alone 25 points AND a point of Toughness
    Eye Of Night: A one-shot weapon for the cost of a whole squad? Youíre taking the ****.
    Hand Of Darkness: A one-attack weapon for slightly less than the cost of a whole squad? Youíre taking the ****.
    Last Memory: Sunburst guaranteed isnít bad, a bonus Mastery Level isnít bad, and you can make Sunburst better for more Warp Charge. Neato.
    Skull Of KerníGar: Eternal Warrior! Yes. Best. Remember Black Legion can Mark things, so you can get the coveted 3++/Eternal Warrior combo.
    Spineshiver Blade: A Powersword/Mark Of Slaanesh/Daemon weapon. Pretty good if you have something else for AP2.

    Formations
    Chosen Of Abaddon
    One-four squads of Terminators/Chosen and an equal number of Lords/Sorcerors to lead them. You then get Fearless for all those squads (which the Lords already give), and what is basically a free Gift for each lord/sorceror. ThatísÖ not much. Thatís almost not anything, really. If youíre taking four squads of terminators or chosen they should be objective secured, if youíre taking four sorcerors they should be in a cabal, and if youíre taking four lords youíre an idiot.

    Bringers Of Despair
    One squad of terminators and Abaddon. Terminators get +1WS and BS (okay, I guess) and Abaddon can re-roll one Look Out Sir per phase. When the opportunity cost is that these guys could be Objective SecuredÖ Look, these are formations from an old book, okay? Chaos Didnt Get Nice Things.

    The Hounds Of Abaddon
    A lord, Beserkers, marines, and Fast units. Everything has to be Mark Of Khorne for free, and you get one turn Run-Charge and bonus strength on a long charge. Itís not bad at all, but World Eaters are definitely better (Furious Charge as standard) and Khorne Daemonkin are probably better too.

    Daemon Engine Pack
    A little better than the Helforged Warpack, but you can only take two -fiends.

    Cyclopia Cabal
    Tax-free sorcerers, who all get a free psychic power - one that's not even bad. However, if you're taking one of the Detachments you can totally take a bunch of sorcerers as command choices instead, and they get your legion and the detachment rules, which could well be better than the power and the Black Legion rules.

    The Tormented
    Nope, Posessed still arenít good.

    Black Legion Warband
    Chaos Warband without Objective secured. Thus, a bad warband. You donít have to take Havocs, though, soÖ itís cheaper. You can also take Chosen instead of ordinary marines, so if you want to spam chosen you can. I'm not sure why you would, though.

    Black Legion Speartip
    Itís the only MFD that can take the Black Legion formations, but you have to take the Black Legion warband instead of the Chaos Warband. That means no Objective Secured whatsoever, which hurts. You do get to start rolling to Deep Strike from the first turn, thoughÖ so if thatís what you want to do, this is how you do it. No, you donít get to have an All Deep Strike army, because both Core choices have ordinary CSM in. Raptor Talons can deep strike and assault on turn one, if you're rolling hot.

    If youíre not really keen on first-turn deep striking (with no bonuses whatsoever, aside from one auto-pass), then the Black Crusade is just better.

    Tactical Objectives
    11: Destroy a unit. Well, duh. What you're doing anyway.
    12: Force a unit to fail a Morale/Pinning/Fear check. Thereís not that much thatís susceptible to this, and you donít have as much ability to capitalise on it as others.
    13: Remove all Independent Characters. This is going to depend on your opponentís army very much - maybe you just need to kill the warlord, maybe you need to winkle a full Conclave out of three separate squads.
    14: Roll a D6, capture that objective. Unlike some, you roll the dice only once and it stays the same for the whole game. Just do whatever youíd do to capture a normal objective.
    15: This is a nice easy objective to get the good bit of, because almost everything has Veterans.
    16: Manifest a power, get more points for manifesting a Conjuration or even more for Sacrifice. You should be able to get the lower end easily. D3+3 is a glorious bounty for blowing up your Sorcerer, and you get a free Daemon Prince for it.

    Is this easier than the generic CSM ones? Depends on your opponentís list (how many ICs do they have? are they going to fail Leadership?) and your own powers (do you have Conjuration powers?). If youíre taking the Black Crusade, the answer is a solid No.


    Black Legion have the most stuff, but actually only have a few things they want to do. If you donít want ďterminators deep striking turn oneĒ or ďterminators as troopsĒ, you wonít get much from Black Legion.

    The rest of the legions are in the post below.
    Last edited by LeSwordfish; 2016-12-28 at 10:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    A Guide To Treachery: Part II
    Guides to Traitor Legions and Traitor's Hate.
    With contributions from Cheesegear, Grim Portent, Boomwolf, and Drasius.

    This is the second part of this post. The first part contains generic things all legions have access to, plus the Black Legion rules. Traitor Legions contains all the formations listed in part 1, but not the Detachment, Knights, or Objectives. It also contains the Legions rules, which are below.


    Alpha Legion
    Spoiler
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    This is more like it! You get no Marks whatsoever, which is fine. Ordinary Marines, Chosen, and Cultists get Infiltrate, which is fantastic. (Chosen are also troops). This makes Chosen pretty useful, since you can take a ton of special weapons and have them in place really easily.

    Your Warlord also basically canít be killed until your last Character is killed. Remember you generate a new trait each time. This is great because it makes Slay The Warlord nearly impossible to get, without exerting too much effort on making your Warlord unkillable. Alpha Legion are thus pretty good psykers, since you can keep all your sorcerers really cheap.

    Warlord Traits
    1: Infiltrate. Oh right, you need this to join one of your units of Chosen or something. This is pretty good, but actually not as great as it sounds. Did you build your warlord in the expectation of getting it? What are you actually planning on doing with Infiltrate? Being 18Ē away and hoping to charge turn two is not terrible, but you kind of need to build for it, and itís random.
    2: You can swap with another character at the start of your turn. Itís great for getting out of nasty combats, but actually since its the start of your turn your opponent has probably had at least one turn of doing whatever they want to you. And itís not like youíd be losing your Warlord VP any time soon.
    3: Autopass a reserve roll each turn. Fantastic, since you get loads of Outflanking.
    4: Stealth. Not bad.
    5: Cultists get boosted. If youíre going all-out on cultists, this is great.
    6: Acute Senses and Outflank. Like #1, itís only good if you built for it.

    This table is decent. Youíve got a 2/6 chance of being able to Outflank, so you could set up to do that and pop up in someoneís backline.

    Artefacts
    Mindveil: Dang, this is really nice. Move 3d6 instead of moving normally. Can get you longer-range charges if you want, or can be used as better-than-Hit-and-Run. Chaos donít have much access to Hit and Run, so be a bastard and use this for that.
    Blade Of The Hydra: You can put out a hell of a lot of attacks with this, which makes Rending really good. Itís pretty good.
    Viperís Bite: Str5 AP2 boltgun. Thatís pretty decent but you can probably think of something better to take.
    Drakescale Plate: 2+ armor saves rule. 2+ invuln against flamers is near-completely useless, because none of the ones in the rules are AP2 to get through your armour anyway. Still, 25pts for Artificier Armor isnít too bad. Remember, a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with this re-rolls 1s, giving it a 2+rr.
    Icon of Insurrection: Cultists get Zealot. Thatís good - Cultists benefit a lot from fearless. Remember that the Dark Apostle in the Lost And The Damned is doing the same thing, and you can actually cover an awful lot of ground with Fearless auras.
    Hydraís Teeth: Blast, Ignores Cover, and Poisoned 2+ on a bolt weapon. Ignores Cover is pretty bad on a ap5 weapon. You can probably get more out of the Viperís Bite, though hey, only you know whether you see more guardsmen or Terminators.

    Insurgency Force
    You have to take a Warband, and they arenít even bad. Everything gets Shrouded during the first turn, which is legit fantastic since you Infiltrate up into cover, survive shooting with 2+/3+ cover saves, and then youíre in position to shoot - or charge, if you got the first turn. The FAQ has changed the other rule - it now gives you +1 on your Lost And The Damned re-roll.

    This is a fantastic formation. You can take a trillion cultists, make them all Fearless with Dark Apostles and Artefacts, and keep bringing them in from Outflank. Just make sure youíve got some heavy guns to deal with anything the cultists canít distract- that can be what your Warband is for! You might want to take a Cult Of Destruction or something for Lascannons.

    Remember Typhusí ďplague zombiesĒ rule states ďall cultists in the armyĒ, and the Poxwalker Hive states ďany friendly unitĒ. If you want, you can give all those cultist squads Fearless and Feel No Pain for a 330pt Combined Arms Detatchment. However, Slow And Purposeful will really hurt that in a maelstrom game, and if youíre going all-out on cultists you might need them to do some shooting.

    Tactical Objectives
    11: Capture A Building. The one time you run into an opponent with a building, this will probably be really hard.
    12: Have a unit of Cultists destroyed. This will be happening a lot.
    13: Destroy a unit with any of a set of special rules. This should actually be fairly easy, since these rules are pretty ubiquitous - remember that a fair few unit types always have deep strike. Itís still harder than ďdestroy any unitĒ, though.
    14: Most things in your army will have Infiltrate, so this is just doing what you do anyway.
    15: Capture objectives in your opponentís deployment zone, with 1VP for one or D3 for two. This is fairly difficult, although youíve got the tools to do it if anyone can. Warbands infiltrate with Objective Secured and Rhinos.
    16: Kill characters. Kill lots of them. One should be easy, and the rest are just gravy.

    This is a good list, especially since Alpha Legion are one of the groups who really want to run their own detachment rather than the Black Crusade.


    Alpha Legion rule, especially in Maelstrom. They take a bit more piloting than Death Guard, but can get more out of it.

    Iron Warriors
    Spoiler
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    No marks, again. Obliterators benefit a whole bunch from Marks of Nurgle or Tzeentch.

    Imperial Fists hate you, and you mega-hate them. Its nice and fluffy when it comes up, and pretty powerful too - theyíre much less likely to be geared for close combat than you are. You get Feel No Pain (6+) which is nice - but the real benefit is that Obliterators and Mutilators are troops choices, and they and Havocs are Tank Hunters. This is great! You probably want some cheaper, more numerous units as troops (you can get five 3+ dudes for the cost of one Obliterator), but getting Objective Secured on things is never bad. Both can deep strike in onto objectives if you want - as Drasius points out, this is great for Mutilators, since you either have to shoot them or watch them tear up small units and vehicles.

    Warlord Traits
    1: Feel No Pain (4+). Cool!
    2: Fearless. This is where you realise that Iron Warriors really wants you to take the underwhelming Warpsmith as your Warlord.
    3: You can give a piece of terrain +1 Cover Save. This is great, since you have a lot of units that just want to sit back in cover.
    4: Obliterators can fire the same gun twice in a row. Depends very much on how many Obliterators you're taking, and what you want to do with them.
    5: Counter-Attack and Split Fire when in cover. Thatís pretty nice.
    6: Vehicles near you have It Will Not Die. Nice, but why are you spending points on vehicles instead of Tank Hunting, Objective Secured Obliterators.

    If you have a Warlord Warpsmith and Vehicles, 3/6 are good. If you have a bunch of Obliterators and Havoks in cover, a different 3/6 are good. If you have bothÖ youíre probably playing a really big game, and this is a useful table to take. Otherwise, I wouldnít recommend it.

    Artefacts
    Warpbreacher: You can give a nearby - really nearby - vehicle - Daemonic Possession. This isnít a bad ability to hand out, since sometimes you really do need a vehicle to not be stunned or shaken for a turn. That tiny range is really restrictive, though, and you could just buy Daemonic Possession for the tank anyway.
    Nest Of Mechaserpents: In a challenge, if you land your first two attacks, the rest have Instant Death. Thatís not bad, though how many things exist that are worth Instant Death-ing that you have more than 25% chance of landing two specific attacks on?
    Axe Of The Forgemaster: Armourbane, master-crafted power axe. If youíre thinking of taking a powerfist, this is actually better, though you pay for it on a Terminator. 5+2d6 is 12 on average, compared to 11 for a powerfist, and itís not a specialist weapon, and itís Master-crafted so those attacks are going to hit. You can boost the strength still further by putting it on a prince.
    Fleshmetal Exoskeleton: 2+ Armor save and It Will Not Die. Pretty fantastic, especially on a Tzeentch prince.
    Cranium Malevolus: Every nearby vehicle, every one of your shooting phases, takes a haywire hit. This isnít bad, but I think you should seriously consider what your warlord should do - if youíre sitting back on an objective with everything else, how often will you see tanks within 2d6Ē
    Siegebreaker Mace: Master-crafter Power Maul, that can make a single str10 Ap1 hit instead of a normal attack. This makes the Black Legion equivalent look like a bad joke, especially since itís cheaper. A power maul isnít a great base, though.

    Grand Company
    You can take Fortifications as an auxillary slot. This is nice, since you get Fearless for sitting on them, and Stubborn otherwise. You also get to re-roll scatter on Ordnance or Barrage weaponsÖ so, Vindicators? And your fortifications, I guess.

    If you want to do Fortifications - and youíre Iron Warriors, so its very thematic - this is a great detachment for it. If you donítÖ re-rolling scatter on your Vindicators? How many are you taking? Would be great if you could somehow get Basilisks, but those days have passed. If you're not doing Fortifications, you can probably get more out of Objective Secured Obliterators in a CAD.

    Tactical Objectives
    11: Destroy a unit near your table edge. Good, nice and easy.
    12: Destroy a unit controlling an Objective Marker. Again, its what youíd be doing anyway.
    13: Destroy something with Obliterators. If youíre taking a bunch of them, this is pretty trivial.
    14: Keep controlling an objective marker until the end of your next turn for D3VPs. Yet again, it wants you to sit back and hold your own.
    15: Damage a building or fortification, or destroy for D3VPs. This isnít too hard, but who takes buildings?
    16: Destroy vehicles. You should be doing this anyway.

    This is a really good table - itís just a shame Iron Warriors fall behind in the rest of Maelstrom. They donít have much that can move fast (are you going to Flat Out your Vindicators onto objectives) and have lots of things that want to sit still and close together.


    If youíre taking Obliterators, making them troops is great. If youíre taking tanks and warpsmiths, you can get good things for them. Can you take both in one force? Probably, so long as youíre not playing 1000 points or something. Iron Warriors really want to sit back and shoot, which doesnít work in Maelstrom. In Eternal War, though, it can totally work.

    Night Lords
    Spoiler
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    You get Fear, Night Vision, and Stealth, and Raptors are Troops. Raptors only get so much from Stealth, though, thanks to Dangerous Terrain tests, and already have Fear. You'll probably want some standard squads hiding at the back in cover. Stealth is also great on Bikes, winged Daemon Princes, and Heldrakes, since they can jink whenever they want.

    Remember all three of those rules are passed to squads by an Independent Character, making Night Lords pretty good allies.

    You also inflict -2 to Fear tests. If anything worth assaulting wasn't immune to fear, this would be pretty nice! Ultimately, Night Lords are bullies: they'll wreck anything weaker than them, but struggle against any kind of dedicated close combat. They're not World Eaters, you have to actually pick your battles.

    Warlord Traits
    1: Nice
    2: Not bad, but not great.
    3: You probably already have this against most things. Probably re-roll.
    4: Pretty good! Remember your 5+ cover (Stealth/Stormbolt Plate) is better when re-rolling than a 4+ invulnerable. Just.
    5: Cool.
    6: Rampage. Meh.

    You know who really benefits from this table? A daemon prince: just about any is great on him. Otherwise, you'll get more from Strategic.

    Artefacts
    Scourging Chains: Pretty good, but you only get one per model.
    Claws Of The Black Hunt: Rending is very nice on Lightning Claws, as is master-crafted. That's a lot of points, though.
    Talons Of The Night Terror: I mean, if you WANT to be better at killing guardsmen... Or put them on a Daemon Prince where they're AP2
    Vox Daemonicus: Messing with enemy reserves is fun. It's also yet another source of -Leadership, so if you want to be really sure your enemy is failing their fear test, this is here. So many things ignore leadership entirely, though.
    Curze's Orb: Worth ignoring in my opinion. I guess it could save you from your own Plasma Pistol?
    Stormbolt Plate: YES. BEST. Artificier Armour with +1 cover save, for only twenty points. An auto-include on your warlord.

    (The Stormbolt Plate goes really well with a Daemon Prince of Nurgle- Stealth, Shrouded, and an additional +1 means a 3+ cover save outside cover. If you're running Night Lords, I'd give serious consideration to making this guy your warlord. It also goes nicely on a prince of Tzeentch, for the 2+re-rollable.)

    Murder Talon
    You get the usual Warlord Trait re-roll, re-roll failed charges (which is great!), and guaranteed Night Fight. Technically you get a +1 cover during Night Fighting as well, but that just replaces two sources of Stealth.

    You can take a Raptor Talon as Core! But that leaves you without any Objective Secured. In maelstrom games, raptors are speedy enough to really compete - but remember a CAD would give them Objective Secured as well. I'd frankly suggest using a CAD instead, maybe with a Talon attached for charging-from-deep-strike. Or not: you're not very good at Deep Striking anyway. Do you really want Night Fighting?

    The Heldrake Terror Pack gives you yet more leadership debuffs, and heldrakes aren't even bad. You can definitely build Night Lords for massive leadership debuffs, it's just a shame that doesn't DO anything.

    Tactical Objectives

    11: Points for doing what you have to do. Pick some weedy sargeant and charge with your Lord.
    12: If you're not constantly achieving this, what kind of Night Lord are you?
    13: Completely destroy a unit with a unit that was in cover or arrived from Deep Strike reserve. Sure, you can charge with a Raptor Talon, but why not just crack a tank with a squad of Havoks in cover?
    14: Destroy enemy units in the assault phase. Again, it's a bully list: easy against squishy targets, much harder against MEQ.
    15: Again, Destroy units. If you can move fast enough, this shouldn't be too hard, since Maelstrom tends to have a lot of small units extending themselves onto objectives.
    16: Force your opponent to fail Morale, Pinning, or Fear tests. You don't have access to much Pinning, but you should be able to bring enough negative leadership modifiers to bear to force this through, unless everything is Fearless, Stubborn, ATSKNF, etc.

    This one all comes down to your and your opponents' armies. Do you think you can reliably be cracking heads? Do you think you can reliably be forcing a ton of failed Fear tests?


    Night Lords want their opponents to be constantly failing leadership tests. Depending on your meta, how useful will that be?

    Word Bearers
    Spoiler
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    You can take Possessed as troops. *pinches forehead, sighs* Okay, well, maybe the rest is good. You can give things Marks, which is nice in some cases. You get boosts when trying to cast Conjuration powers. Thatís good! Youíre a little less likely to Perils yourself to death, and the best thing Chaos Space Marines can do is summon a better armyÖ I kid, I kid. You also get Zealot when near Dark Apostles. Dark Apostles arenít particularly good.

    Ultramarines hate you, and you mega-hate them. Like the Iron Warriors but way better - lots of Space Marines are Ultramarines, and theyíll probably be using Doctrines to re-roll to hit anyway, and you can be more prepared for Close Combat than them.

    Warlord Traits
    1: Zealot, or get the Hatred part of Zealot upgraded to mega-hatred (as in, you keep re-rolling in later turns). Youíre almost certainly Fearless or Zealot already, you probably hate a lot of armiesÖ I mean, if itís not a waste, then keep it.
    2: +1 Mastery Level. This isnít bad at all.
    3: Choose a nearby unit, and give them one of a few Special Rules. Nice!
    4: Adamantium Will and Fearless. Stop giving me Fearless! Iím probably already Fearless!
    5: Modify the second dice of Boon Rolls. This is really good, especially with re-rolls or the Warbandís Pick Two rule, since you effectively pick two of six boons.
    6: Immediately roll on the Boon table. Pretty good.

    This is a pretty good table, especially for a sorceror. For gods sake donít roll on it with a Lord or Apostle unless you have a re-roll, though.

    Artefacts
    Skull Of Monarchia: Iím not convinced that most combats last long enough to justify extending ďHatredĒ, but itís cheap as chips, and Shred against Ultramarines is good.
    Crown Of The Blasphemer: Get a Sigil Of Corruption with Adamantium will for five points. Pretty good.
    Malefic Tome: One extra power from Malefic Daemonology. Very good, and nice and cheap.
    Scripts of Erebus: Once per game, immediately generate an extra D6 power dice. This is another really good one.
    Baleful Icon: Force enemies to re-roll successful charge rolls, and deny them bonus attacks. Another fantastic one?
    Cursed Crozius: Ap3 Power Maul with Preferred Enemy (Imperials). Youíre paying a fair bit for it, but once again its very good.

    For the limited set of things they want to be doing, these are pretty good. You'll miss the Artificer armour, though.

    Word Bearers Grand Host
    Everything gets Crusader, and you get a tweaked version of the Black Crusade where you can only give it to each character once. This is kind of just a slightly worse version of the Black Crusade detachment (how many Imperial armies do you face? Would you rather Hate them or Crusade against them), and is so still pretty good. Re-rolling on the Word Bearers Warlord Trait table could genuinely be a dealbreaker.

    Tactical Objectives
    11: Successfully charge with a unit with Zealot. If youíve got lots of Zealot, this is what you want to be doing anyway.
    12: Completely destroy a unit with a unit of Daemons. Well, youíre not taking posessed, so how much Summoning do you plan to do? Alternatively, remember that Obliterators, Mutilators, Forgefiends and Maulerfiends, and Warp Talons, all have the Daemon special rule. Or just take allies.
    13: Kill a character. You have to try this.
    14: D3 for a successful Conjuration: D3 points for doing what youíre trying already.
    15: D3 for taking an objective from your opponent. Again, what youíre trying already.
    16: Get Victory Points for rolling Boons. You can get this for free if youíre in either the Black Crusade or Grand Host. Youíre very unlikely to get the higher levels, though.

    If youíve got a bunch of Zealot, and a bunch of Summoning, then sure. Otherwise Traitorís Hate is better.


    Oddly, Word Bearers have no particular need to take Dark Apostles or Possessed, their two most thematic units. Summoning on 3+ is nice if youíre going to be summoning, and youíve got a ton of good relics to make it better. If all you want is ďWarband + Something + Allied CabalĒ to summon, you could do ďWarband + Something + A Bunch Of SorcerorsĒ and not be much worse off for it.

    World Eaters
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    World Eaters have some pretty direct competition from Khorne Daemonkin. Both Cheesegear and Grim Portent have written up posts on what's better where, but the short part is: for marines, World Eaters. For Daemons-with-marines, take Daemonkin.

    You have to take the Mark Of Khorne on everything. Thatís not great: a lot of things just donít care about it. You don't get any psykers - hahah no, just kidding, take a Cyclopea Cabal. You can take Kharn (a big plus point over Daemonkin) and Khorne Bezerkers are troops- Bezerkers are way more expensive than Mark Of Khorne marines, for pretty much no benefit.

    You get Fearless, Furious Charge, and Adamantium Will. Daemonkin can pay Blood Tithe points for two of those. Fearless is a big deal, though.

    Warlord Traits
    1: Rampage. Not bad.
    2: Can pick +1 attack any time youíd get a Boon. This is pretty cool, especially since its a choice.
    3: You can Charge a unit locked in combat during your opponentís Charge phase, and you get all the Charge bonuses. This is pretty good - sit your warlord behind a sacrificial unit, and then if they get charged, throw out a counter-charge.
    4: Re-roll all to hit and to wound in a challenge. Pretty good, since you should be in challenges all the time.
    5: Eternal Warrior and Feel No Pain when locked in combat. Eternal Warrior is always good, but it wonít save you from lascannons. Remember Daemonkin can pay Blood Tithe points for Feel No Pain - on everything.
    6: Roll 3d6 and pick the best two for everything nearby when charging. Thatís very good indeed, especially with how many ways you have to get a re-roll.

    Nobody could accuse Khorne of being subtle.

    Artefacts
    Talisman of Burning Blood: +3 to Move, Charge, and Run distances. Very good indeed, nearly an autoinclude. Take this and the Maelstrom of Gore in the Butcherhorde, and you're moving 15"+2d6+2d6 with re-rolls. That should get you a first-turn charge, even if your opponent thinks they're being sneaky hiding six inches or so behind the line.
    Berserker Glaive: Two-handed, master-crafted relic blade Daemon Weapon, that gives Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die, but takes away the Independent Character special rule. Feel No Pain and IWND just arenít good enough to justify being on your own outside a unit, but Daemon Princes have fun with it.
    Brass Collar: Deny the Witch on 4+, and if you Deny, the psyker suffers Perils. This is useful psychic defense, sure - iím not sure itís that good (since youíll probably only have d6 dice) but itís better than nothing.
    Gorefather: Two-handed Armourbane Power Axe that does Instant Death on sixes. You should consider taking this instead of a powerfist.
    The Crimson Killer: A Plasma pistol with Soul Blaze instead of Gets Hot. Way better than a plasma pistol, but you werenít taking one of those anyway.
    Bloodfeeder: Power Axe that replaces all your attacks with 2d6 hits. Thatís a whole bunch. On every roll of a One, though, you take a wound with no armour saves. Rolls of One where? On the 2d6? To hit? To wound? Itís a lot of points above a normal axe.

    Lord Of Skulls (Also in Traitor's Hate)
    Jesus, nine hundred points for one model? Itís not worth that at all.

    Trinity Of Blood
    (Also in Traitor's Hate)
    Three of them in a formation is a joke. 2700 points! You could get a Warlord titan for that. However, Forge World allows you to replace Lords Of Skulls in formations for the much more reasonable Khytan.

    Maelstrom of Gore
    (Also in Traitor's Hate)
    Kharne and a bunch of Beserkers. Once per game, you can attack twice in a turn, once at the start of the movement phase. You also get Fleet and +3 Charge. This is good formation rules, but the extra cost of Beserkers is pretty high, and with the loss of Objective Secured too, almost certainly not worth it.

    Butcherhorde
    You get to re-roll failed charge rolls on everything, which is great. You also get a 2d6Ē ďScoutĒ move, but you can assault afterwards (If everything in the unit is from the same detachment). Thatís also great, and means you can reliably get the charge with speedy units like bikes.

    Tactical Objectives
    11: Make a Deny The Witch test. You're going to have nearly no dice for this, and Adamantium Will only works in some situations.
    12: Completely destroy a unit on an objective marker. This is how youíre going to be taking objectives.
    13: Make three successful charges. You should be doing this all the time anyway.
    14: Kill someone in a challenge, with D3 if itís the warlord. Again, something youíre doing all the time.
    15: Destroy a unit, or allow one of your own to be destroyed, and get D3 for both. Getting your own unit destroyed is harder than it seems, because itís specifically in your turn, so you need to badly lose a combat. You can at least pick up the ďdestroy a unitĒ bit.
    16: Get a victory point for each destroyed unit. Should be easy to get the low versions of it, and if youíre lucky, you can really clean up.

    Again, nobody ever said Khorne was subtle.


    The World Eaters really want to be always in combat, all the time. You should be doing everything you can to gear towards that, and in match-ups where that's not possible (jetbike eldar), you lose. Probably Daemonkin are better - Summoning things by killing things is really really good.

    Thousand Sons
    Spoiler
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    Everything has to be Mark Of Tzeentch. Ah. Oh dear. An awful lot of things don't care about that, except things with a natural invulnerable. Units with VotLW get +1 invulnerable save when blessed - remember that Mark Of Tzeentch can't take you past 3++. That's not bad, since you can use Force, but then you're wasting Warp Charge points for the kind of bonus everyone else gets for free. Remember it needs to bless the whole unit - and remember a fair few of your sorcerers have to roll on the Tzeentch table exclusively, which has precisely 0 powers that will do this.

    You and Space Wolves hate each other - and this time, that sucks, since Space Wolves are way more likely to be capitalising on that than you are.

    You can take Rubric Marines as Troops. Rubric Marines aren't very good, though one squad of them as your AP3 caddies can be pretty good.

    Thousand Sons cast powers. You really need something to boost your Warp Charge a bunch, like a ton of allied daemons. Thatís why most Thousand Sons lists you see are like 25% Sons and 75% Daemons Of Tzeentch. Daemons are better, soÖ just take more of them. Like all of them. Thousand Sons arenít good. Thatís the honest part: if you want to play Thousand Sons, figure out some way to use a different ruleset. Deathwatch have lots of librarians and AP3 ammo. Sternguard in a First Company Formation have Fearless and lots of AP3 ammo. Grey Knights are all psykers.

    Warlord Traits
    1: Adamantium Will isnít too bad, but only works on Maledictions and Witchfires. You should have enough dice (and your warlord should have a high enough mastery level) to pull DtW off anyway.
    2: Eternal Warrior. That's very nice, especially since you should also have a good Invulnerable.
    3: Crap.
    4: One extra Psychic Power. That's not bad.
    5: You get Deep Strike - or, more importantly, if you have it, you don't Scatter. That's good, but if you didn't plan for it you won't get much out of this.
    6: The ground near you is Difficult to enemies. You donít want to be charged so this is helpful, and it can cause Dangerous Terrain for jump/jetbike units but itís not going to do that much. Remember you can get the same thing with a relic.

    Artefacts
    Astral Grimoire: Give something nearby the Jump type. That's actually a pretty neat trick - don't bother deep striking, just take some Jump Obliterators. It works on allies, so you can use it with very many things, which is kind of funny.
    Seers Bane: It's at-initiative AP2! It's also basically Strength 10, rolled against your opponent's Leadership - so, wounding on 2/3/4+. However, it still uses Toughness for Instant Death, which means Instant Death'ing a lot of things. This is not bad at all, but Forty Points is way too much, especially in a force that kind of doesn't want to be in close combat. How come this is the only At-Initiative AP2 in the entire book?
    Helm Of The Third Eye: Again, good, since you really don't want to be charged. This can also give your Rubricae the chance to Overwatch, which you want.
    Staff Of Arcane Compulsion: This is actually neat: You really donít want to be charged, and this and cover together give your opponent a -4 to the roll.
    Coruscator: It gives your Inferno Bolt Pistol Blast and Soul Blaze. Thatís not at all worth twenty points.
    Athaenian Scrolls: Can prevent the target of the power from denying - I.E. only works on Maledictions and Witchfires. That's useful if your opponent is really good at denying, but so few opponents are. It could be useful against Eldar, but in that matchup youíre really just trying to be alive at the end of turn two.

    New Units
    Exalted Sorcerers
    These guys are a nice combination of Sorcerer and Lord, with an extra wound, point of initiative, etc. They also get a one-shot lascannon, which is almost the only anti-tank in an entire all-Sons army. They don't have access to several good bits of wargear that normal sorcerers like, and don't make Rubric Marines troops.

    Tzaangors
    Cultists with WS4, T4, and the Mark Of Tzeentch for +3 points a model. They're the only way to get a lot of Cultists in the special Thousand Sons detachments, but really for what you do with Cultists, do you need any of those bonuses? You can't use any of the special things for cultists - like the Lost And The Damned, or Typhus - with them.

    Rubric Marines
    They're still super goddamn expensive, especially because they have to take a Sorcerer - and the Sorcerer is tied solely to the distinctly underwhelming Tzeentch table. Neither 4++ or AP3 is bad, but you're paying so much for it. You can now take Warpflamers (so goddamn expensive, and they have the horrible Warpflame rule) or Soulreaper Cannons (so goddamn expensive, and only one per ten(!) models.) There's really not much you can do with these guys: however, one squad of them isn't too bad.

    Scarab Occult Terminators
    The sorceror gets one of his rolls on a table that doesn't suck. However, terminators aren't very good, and these guys are very expensive terminators that don't do much to suck less. At least they aren't Slow And Purposeful too. They can't take combi-weapons or any close combat weapon other than powerswords.

    Magnus The Red
    He's a flying monster that can cast pretty much anything... so long as it's from the Tzeentch or Change table. That sucks. He also has a Str-D beam, but that's warp charge five! What's the Warp Charge cost of Vortex Of Doom? Heís not a Gargantuan so canít stomp and can be stomped, is affected by poison and "remove from play" effects as normal. Make him fly, keep him flying forever. Don't ever come down, keep spamming spells. Drasius's list of the best five spells: "Flickering fire (WC3), treason, prismatic gaze, gaze of Magnus, siphon, Tzeentch's warpflame and doombolt are the ones that should see regular use, with bolt of change, boon of flame and baleful devolution coming out when needed."

    All the below formations have the Favoured of Tzeentch rule: if you take the maximum number of units, you get to re-roll 1s on the Invulnerable Save. The maximum number of units is nine, usually, which makes this kind of a rip-off, since that's a ludicrous amount of points, usually on things that aren't very good.

    War Cabal

    Rubrics, Termies, at least two of various kinds of sorcerers. If you successfully cast a power, you get re-rolls to hit of 1. Not even a little bit worth losing Objective Secured. The full version just about fits into 1850 with few upgrades or allies, and bad as this is that might actually be the best option?

    War Coven
    A bunch of sorcerers - at least four. You pick a BRB discipline, and get 3+ to cast it. ďOh wow, this is comparable to a cyclopea cabalĒ you think? No. No, it is not. You pay the Mark Of Tzeentch tax on everything, you have to take at least one power apiece from the Tzeentch table, and if youíre taking four sorcerers you probably donít want them all rolling on the same table, in which case at least a few are getting nothing.

    Tzaangor Warherd
    Tzaangors are bad. Fleet and run-and-charge make them less bad, but theyíre not going to do much in close combat. The sorceror can't run-and-charge so slows them down. You could get some decent Daemon allies instead.

    Sekhmet Conclave
    Fear is bad. +1 Toughness is decentÖ if only there was some other way in the chaos book to have Toughness 5 TerminatorsÖ for less per modelÖ and without needing to huddle each otherÖ and with proper optionsÖ ah, if only. It kind of works at 2500+ points (with a T8 Magnus) but only kind of, and AP2 still shuts you down.

    Ahrimanís Exiles
    Itís a war coven, but if all the sorcerers are Exalted and Ahriman is included, you cast on a 3+. Ahriman is pretty good, but youíre paying a minimum of 160 points to Exalt the other sorcerers, and it has all the other problems of the Coven.

    Rehati War Sect
    Itís Ahrimanís Exiles, but with Magnus instead of Ahriman, and you can take Daemon Princes instead of the sorcerers. Everything has to be Mastery Level 3, and you get ďcast on 3+Ē and Magnusí ďcan target every unitĒ rule. Again, thatís an awful awful lot of taxes for some underwhelming rules.

    Grand Coven
    This is the Thousand Sons mega-detachment. You donít get anything not from the Thousand Sons formations list - so no Warband. You can take single Vehicles as Auxillary choices. In exchange for taking either the (bad) cabal or the (bad) conclave as core, you can re-roll Perils and attempt to manifest an additional power each per turn. This isnít worth it at all.

    You can do better with the Black Crusade detachment, since you can take a single squad of Rubricae as an auxillary choice, and then you can take good things for the rest of the army. At which point you're not really taking Thousand Sons are you? Look, its not possible to do this well.

    Tactical Objectives
    11: Kill Nine models. This is way harder than ďkill a unitĒ since you canít just pop a rhino.
    12: Psychic Supremacy: Deny The Witch. You should have enough psychic dice to just throw them all at the first power, or you could play more conservatively like normal and still have a pretty decent chance. Fear the smart opponent who has a couple of psykers (so you canít discard this) but doesn't care much about casting.
    13: Destroy an Armies Of The Imperium unit. Either easy or basically impossible?
    14: Score D3 points if your opponent controls no objectives. This will be really hard, since you have bugger-all for fast units - unless youíre allying a ton of daemons.
    15: Destroy an enemy unit in the psychic phase. The best thing you can be doing is casting a trillion witchfires, so this is actually reasonably possible.
    16: Manifest three or six powers of different types. This is actually reasonably possible, since the Tzeentch table has five types, and the witchfires count as different types.

    Aside from the fact that you're handicapped by being Thousand Sons, this table isn't bad at all.


    Thousand Sons aren't good. You can make them better with a hefty allied force of Daemons, but since they're worse than Daemons... look, try and find some other rules somewhere you can use for them instead. You can do anything you want from the Space Marine book.

    Death Guard
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    Everything has to take Mark Of Nurgle, which costs you a lot of points. However you get Fearless, Relentless, and Feel No Pain, three of the best rules in the game. Death guard are... The best. You lose a point of initiative, but who cares? Even power swords will have difficulty killing you, you're so tough.

    You can take Typhus. However, any nameless chump has Feel No Pain now.

    -- Chaos Lord - Terminator Armour [Power Axe], Mark Of Nurgle, Blight Grenades - 125

    You lose the Daemon Weapon rule, the Destroyer Hive, and you have to pay 20 points for a worse version of Plague Zombies. Youíre also not a psyker. Youíre nearly half the cost though. Do you really want those extra rules? You get a better Warlord Trait, and access to power swords, 4+ invulns, Palanquins, BikesÖ or you could enjoy being half price, or you could get a Sorceror too. If you want those extra gubbins Typhus brings, heís not all that bad, but you can definitely be more efficient.

    You can take Plague Marines as troops. Trouble is, why would you? For six points over an ordinary marine, you get Blight Grenades and Poisoned weapons - neither of which is at all bad, but do you really need them? I'm actually asking: if you think you need a truckload of poisoned attacks, Plague Marines are there. Blight Grenades are great, though - if you have points spare, they're at least as useful as meltabombs. Remember you can throw them to Blind things. You also get double special weapons with five models, so you can play MSU and Not Die.

    Warlord Traits
    1: +1 Feel No Pain. Will almost always be helpful.
    2: It Will Not Die. Again, always good.
    3: Lord Of Contagion. These hits are AP4, which actually makes them really good. However everything else on the table is even goddamn better, so consider re-rolling.
    4: +1 Wound. Nice, but over the course of the game probably not as good as some of the others.
    5: Eternal Warrior. The table that keeps on giving. Perhaps the best trait out there?
    6: Re-roll. Again, it's good, but everything else is better.

    None of these are bad, and 4/6 make your Warlord VP even harder to take. Particularly if you have a re-roll, this is a great table to roll on.

    Artefacts
    Puscleaver: Dirt cheap. Give it to a Daemon Prince, then it's AP2 and re-rolling to wound.
    Plague Skull: One use only and ap-? No thank you.
    Pandemic Staff: If you have more points to spend than the Puscleaver, take this on a prince instead: it'll wound on 2+ re-rollable against most things anyway, and you get a shooting attack too.
    Dolorous Knell: Fear isn't really worth it.
    Poxwalker Hive: This is decent under certain circumstances. Firstly, you can use it on Marked units of cultists (even ones without MoN). Itís more or less the same as Typhusí rule if you only have one unit of cultists, but if you have several you probably want them off doing things, not hanging round with your character, queued up to get buffed. If all you want is a dirty great block of zombies on an objective without taking Typhus, then go wild! 20 points is probably less than one point per model.
    Plaguebringer: 35 points for a poisoned daemon powersword? I'm not a fan.

    Plague Colony
    -WS is useless, -I is reasonable (it brings them down to your level) and though -T is great - you're now re-rolling to wound with all your poisoned weapons - you're then spending over a thousand points on seven MSU units without upgrades, which is a lot, and none of it has Objective Secured. That means you're paying 210 points over the cost of an equivalent group of Mark Of Nurgle marines.

    Vectorium
    Honestly, just about everything in the codex loves a Mark Of Nurgle. Take what you want, it's all good. The Chaos Warband is a really solid base for an army, and you should give serious consideration to taking a single spawn to make the Warband into a Vectorium, then just piling on more Objective Secured Fearless things. Especially useful are bikes, which take and hold Maelstrom objectives.

    The Black Crusade is about as useful as the Vectorium, since +FNP and quasi-stealth are both good. How often will you be far enough away to get that +1 cover? Drasius also points out you can take a horde of small units of Spawn to beat things to death with 3 T6 wound units.

    Tactical Objectives
    1: Note that this says "table half" not deployment zone. If you've built your army sensibly, this will be trivial.
    2: Note that this says "Phase" and is so actually harder than it sounds. For every Feel No Pain roll you make, you fail two (on average), which means at least fourteen models have died, which is actually a pretty bad phase for you. Zombies can grind it cheaply, though.
    3: If you're not taking Plague Marines, you probably don't actually have that much poison. Hopefully you've got something casting powers, right? Try and get Nurgles Rot off on something weedy.
    4: Nominate a character and score an extra victory point if they survive. This one shouldn't be too hard - either take your warlord, or someone who sits at the back trying not to get in trouble.
    5: Very situational.
    6: Unlike the other, this says "turn". D3+3 victory points is a hell of a bounty: it's well worth going all-out on this, though of course it depends on your opponent's list.

    The Traitor's Hate objectives are probably easier, to be honest - especially since you should be seriously considering the Black Crusade instead of the Vectorium.


    Death Guard rule. If you want a "Competitive" list, it's these or Alpha Legion.

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    You can take Lucius (heís bad, you shouldnt) and Noise Marines are troops. Everything has to be Mark Of Slaanesh, which isÖ there are an awful lot of things in the codex which donít care about +1 initiative. Thatís quite a restriction. In exchange, you get Fearless and Feel No Pain 6+, which are decent (yet obviously a step below Death Guard). Finally, you get a special rule by which you can make a single attack if youíre killed in close combat before you can attack. This is not good. Youíre spending all those points on Initiative, you should be going first against most things anyway. I guess itís neat for models with only a few strong attacks anywayÖ but such things are usually unwieldy, and wouldn't you rather not die instead of making a single powerfist hit?

    Warlord Traits
    1: Eternal Warrior. Great!
    2: This means youíre beating Eldar and Genestealers to the hit. Thatís nice, but hardly universally helpful.
    3: +1 Feel No Pain. If youíve got an Icon of Excess, this puts you up to FnP 3+, and thats pretty good.
    4: Fear sux.
    5: Gain attacks as you lose wounds. I prefer my warlord not to lose wounds, and I prefer my warlord trait not trying to drag him into combat after losing wounds.
    6: Autopass Look Out Sir rolls. This is pretty great.

    Two are good, one is decent, the others are pretty rubbish. Iíd roll elsewhere.

    Artefacts
    Intoxicating Elixir: D3 rolls on the Combat Drugs table: this is really nice, since itís all good on that table. 25 points is a fair amount for it, though.
    Shriekwave: A Strength 8 AP2 ranged weapon that makes D6 shots! Who cares about the mental trauma rule, this rules.
    Soulsnare Lash: 20 points for an AP5 weapon is a lot, even if it is Rending and Instant Death.
    Endless Grin: What was I just saying about Fear? At least itís cheap.
    Bolts of Ecstatic Vexation: This is really good.
    Blissgiver: Kind of like how Force weapons used to work - except note that itís not Instant Death so ignores Eternal Warrior. Itís certainly possible to build for effectiveness with this, stacking up leadership debuffs until you sneak a wound through and make Marneus Calgar orgasm himself to death. Itís pretty good.

    Shame the rest of the legion is so bad, really, the Emperorís Children have great relics.

    Kakophoni
    Noise Marines bring the always-lovely Ap3 Ignores Cover, but you pay through the nose for it. This formation gives you Split Fire so you can shoot your anti-infantry Sonic Blasters and your anti-heavy-infantry Blastmasters at different targets. And then it puts Shred on top of that. If you take the full six units - that's a lot - you can get +1 Strength, and then cast the power which gives you an additional +1 strength, for Str6 Shredding Salvo2/3 bolters. That's pretty scary... but you pay through the nose for it.

    Rapture Batallion
    Combat Drugs are great. The Kakophoni isnít too bad. Beyond thatÖ well, the various detachments offer plenty of things you can buy that donít need a Mark Of Slaanesh thatís points down the drain. This works well as allies, actually - take a spawn and get Combat Drugs for your Kakophoni, and then spend the rest of your points on things from another detatchment that don't need to be Marked.

    Tactical Objectives

    11: Completely destroying a unit with sonic weapons isÖ way hard. I guess if you could pick on some devastators or a small squad in cover?
    12: Kill a character in a challege. Get points for doing what you have to. If youíre not stupid, Slaaneshi units can do this really easily.
    13: Kill a unit thatís Falling Back. Shouldnít be too hard, but kind of a waste of firepower.
    14: Score points for forcing units to fail Morale etc tests. Easier for you because Sonic weapons are Pinning.
    15: Your opponent chooses a marker, score D3 victory points if you control it. This is probably pretty hard to get - you need to be both fast and killy, since your opponent will just pick one they have a tough Objective Secured unit or tank on. Get bikes.
    16: Same as the last one, you need to force your opponent off their most prized objective. If you took the Kakophoni, youíre pretty screwed, since any Objective Secured unit at all beats you.

    11 is the Traitors Hate 11 but harder. 15 is the Traitorís Hate 15 but harder. 12 is the Traitors Hate 14, but it has to be in close combat. You donít want to use this table.


    Iím not sure what to suggest here. Thereís kind of nothing much to do with the Mark Of Slaanesh, except take lots of Icons Of Excess and wish you were Death Guard. No, +1 FnP isnít as good as +1 Toughness.
    Last edited by LeSwordfish; 2017-02-03 at 08:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    The question is moot. Vendettas aren't Tanks and can't Tank Shock.
    Pretend my Chimera had survived long enough to be in the same situation then.

    I may have messed up in that particular game, but I was wondering if the gamble was worth it in a general sense.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Well here's a question for you guys. Is it better to tank shock with a transport holding objective secured guys, when if the enemy fails (at LD 9) you win the game for sure, but there is a melta gun in the squad? Or is it better to stay still and keep the extra shots while the guys inside move out to take the objective.
    Depends, but IIRC, you might be able to do both. I can't remember for sure if you can disembark and tank shock in the same turn, but I think you can if you disembark before the tank moves. Check the rulebook though since I can't remember for sure. Other than that, if your guys can kill their guys, then get out. If your guys can't kill their guys, then you're going to lose anyway so yes, you tank shock them and pray for your ~16% chance they fail Ld9. Remember, melta is going to have to explode, stun or immobilise you, shaken and weapon destroyed don't really do much and the melta gunner will die and they move out of the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    I don't see how anyone in the era of remove from play effects can anyone claim Magnus is good. He is literary one rolled 6 on the D table away from you being down a warlord and 650 points.
    When he's flying, there's no risk from stomps and a significant reduction in risk from D and remove from play options. The list of things that can skyfire D or remove from play with any reliability can be counted on 1 hand I think. Magnus, Fateweaver, [Fortuned] Wraithknights, [Fortuned] Wraithguard and Frost Cannons on stormwoofs or whatever they're called. You can roll prismatic gaze on a Tz prince or LoC and get it that way but I wouldn't call that reliable and you can roll it on a herald as well as get prescienced in a Tz daemons list, but again, really not reliable.

    Being 650 is Magnus' problem in a world where wraithknights are <300, but while we shouldn't judge everything by the standards of the most broken thing in the game, we do because you see them so often and as we all know, if you're not the best, then you're the worst.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Renegade Knights (Traitor's Hate Only)
    ...

    Knights love being given Ignores Cover. Love it. You need to do some work to get Divination, though. Doesn't matter, Perfect Timing only works on the unit the sorc is attached to. The one on Geomortis or whatever it is is much better for the same cost anyway. Alternatively, you can have fun following them around with sorcerers casting on Heretech.

    Thunderstrike Gauntlet: Unwieldy is really bad on a knight, since that means your Str-D is going at the same time as Chainfists and Thunder Hammers and all those scary things. Swapping at-init attacks for a AP- large blast is probably not worth it, although if you only ever use your knight for fights it can win then... sure. You bully. That depends, if you're always charging into cover, it's no different than the chainblade but it does allow you to stomp first and then pick off the leftovers rather than the other way around since both attacks happen at I1 you get to choose the order. Still bad because of the reasons you mentioned, but less bad now that you can't be hit by 10 melta bomb attacks at I1 or 10x EMP grenades at I2.
    Reaper Chainsword: Chaos don't have much access to Str-D. Knights are speedy enough to get some good use out of this, so I would seriously consider keeping it in case you need to chainsword a wraithknight or something. It also keeps your knight cheap - two guns and you're seriously stacking on the points cost for something that is not as tough as you might want.

    Avenger Gatling Cannon: Messes up marines like nobody's business. Take two to wipe just about anything with a 3+ save off the map - and with Rending, you can have a proper shot at 2+ save units or light vehicles too. It's also the only thing you can Overwatch with. Probably the best general-purpose gun. Superheavies can't overwatch (unless you take a certain knight formation that chaos doesn't have access to). The built in heavy flamer is neat though. Also pairs well with the missile or rocket launcher.
    Rapid-fire Battle Cannon: It's a battle cannon that shoots twice at 72". That means it's high enough strength to Instant Death toughness 4, and with two shots you might be able to sneak wounds through good cover too. I would suggest that the Gatling Cannon is better - unless you think you'll be making more than six or so hits per Large Blast.
    Thermal Cannon: If you can't be Str-D at range, Str-9 melta does the job pretty well. Chaos quite like high-strength AP1, since they only have so many ways to crack tanks at range. If you'd rather crack terminators/tanks than anything else, this is the gun for you. I find this more useful for the AP1 rather than the tank busting where the battle cannon is almost a better choice due to the ability to strip hull points with more reliability due to 2 ordnance shots than a single 18" melta shot. The battle cannon pairs especially well with the 3 shot krak missile launcher too. The requirement to get closer will expose your unshielded side more often though.

    My personal recommendation would be either the Gatling Cannon or Thermal cannon or both. Almost every one that I've seen has been the double avenger cannon. Also, even with double guns, you are still str 10 ap2 due to natural str 10 and smash.

    Ironstorm Missile Pod: You don't have much Barrage, and its lovely long range. Str5 Ap4 isn't much to write home about, though. This is basically a whirlwind strapped to the top of your knight. Do you ever wish you had a whirlwind available to you? If not, don't bother with this.
    Icarus Autocannons: You don't have much access to Skyfire, and this brings you Skyfire on a tough target. It's also the only gun a knight can take that can fire backwards, so if you expect to need to charge backwards, this is how you do it. No, the autocannon is bad and it should feel bad. The Stormspear give almost identical results to this against air targets while also being not-terrible at kraking open tanks or finishing the job your primary weapon/s were doing.
    Stormspear Rocket Pod: Three-shot krak missiles. One thing knights are really good at is taking out tanks, and this will add a lot of firepower to that role. Best carapace weapon by a mile. Regardless, magnetise them anyway because you don't always have the extra points for a carapace gun and it's super easy to pop a magnet in them.

    Meltagun: Helps you crack tanks. However, that heavy stubber is really only for shooting things you want to charge, so, it's not necessary.
    Oh, by the way LeSwordfish, great work on this, it's certainly not a small task and I think you've done an excellent job. Thank you.
    Last edited by Drasius; 2016-12-20 at 04:25 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    The list of things that can skyfire D or remove from play with any reliability can be counted on 1 hand I think. Magnus, Fateweaver, [Fortuned] Wraithknights, [Fortuned] Wraithguard and Frost Cannons on stormwoofs or whatever they're called.
    There's the Gauss Pylon: 3 Str D Skyfire shots, long range.

    No use at anything other than anti-air though, unless the meta involves a lot of skimmers.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2016-12-20 at 04:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Since it's come up a few times already, I think it might be possible now with Traitor Legions to negate scatter completely and make Raptor Talons reliable.

    The Dimension Key, or Dimensional Key, or Key of Infinity or whatever it's called, the bad CSM relic no one takes. If taken in a WE army it should be possible to get it into assault turn 1 coupled with the Detachment and another Lord with the Talisman of Boiling Blood, a Chaos Lord should then be able to kill at least one model of basically any normal unit in the game and activate the Key, stopping all Chaos Marine units from scattering when they Deep Strike on following turns.

    A NL/WE tag team list, for minimum non-deepstriking taxes without having to pay for MoK on everything, or mono WE for Fearless everything, could have a unit of WE bikers with two lords in it start on the board, move 2D6" before the game starts, move 15" in the movement phase, then assault 2d6+3" with rerolls to try and activate the key. Following turns Raptor Talons could drop in and start slashing/flaming/melta-ing things up without having to worry about scatter or getting shot by anything other than Overwatch.
    Last edited by Grim Portent; 2016-12-20 at 04:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Since it's come up a few times already, I think it might be possible now with Traitor Legions to negate scatter completely and make Raptor Talons reliable.

    The Dimension Key, or Dimensional Key, or Key of Infinity or whatever it's called, the bad CSM relic no one takes. If taken in a WE army it should be possible to get it into assault turn 1 coupled with the Detachment and another Lord with the Talisman of Boiling Blood, a Chaos Lord should then be able to kill at least one model of basically any normal unit in the game and activate the Key, stopping all Chaos Marine units from scattering when they Deep Strike on following turns.

    A NL/WE tag team list, for minimum non-deepstriking taxes without having to pay for MoK on everything, or mono WE for Fearless everything, could have a unit of WE bikers with two lords in it start on the board, move 2D6" before the game starts, move 15" in the movement phase, then assault 2d6+3" with rerolls to try and activate the key. Following turns Raptor Talons could drop in and start slashing/flaming/melta-ing things up without having to worry about scatter or getting shot by anything other than Overwatch.
    So...
    1) The dimensional key only starts working after you kill something in the fight subphase... so turn 2 deepstrikes at the latest.
    2)This means the other player has a full turn to murder whatever is holding the key. If they do you are back to full scattering and sucking.
    3)You need at least 2 HQ choices to have both the talisman and the key. In the same unit. Niether of which is an Axe of Blind Fury.
    4)You have to go first for any of this to matter, or the key holders squad gets murdered by a round of shooting.
    5)If everything else magically works out, you can now drop raptors/talons within 12" of the expensive command squad. While your opponent has had a turn to get 24" away from the key holder, which would mean no possible charge from the talons.

    Were as space marines get drop pods with scatter reduction. Yep this seems totally worthwhile.

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