Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

[Lans]

And the barbarian, who likely has a higher strength score (because he doesn't have to worry about wisdom and charisma) is more accurate and does better damage, especially since he can take power attack without worrying about missing.

No, there strengths a can easily be the same

You seem to be ignoring Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, Damage Reduction, and Rage progression (beyond uses/day) here. And, as noted above, the fact that he's probably got a Strength of 20 (with power attack) while you're balancing 16 Strength, 16 Wisdom, and 14 Charisma.

Those abilities are nice, but I am also forgoing the fact that the DM is sharing his aura, and other abilities he could be using as they are less relevent toface smashing and harder to quantify. He could easily for go points in charisma, and only needs a 12 wisdom for most levels. He has heavy armor proficiency so can afford a lower dex to make up for these pts

Even if he's a Lion Totem barbarian, with pounce as a special ability?

Unless the base barbarian is tier 5, and only with ACFs does he reach tier 4 this is not something I need to take into account.


EDIT- I am mainly using barbarian as an example of tier 4 so if the divine mind can compare to the base barbarian but fails supremely vs a barbarian with ACFs, that is acceptable to my position

Sure.

And the barbarian still has Greater Rage, Power Attack, and a higher Strength score.

I counted greater rage, either can have power attack, and the strength score is build choice, they can both put an 18 or 8 there.

Further, what if you'd like to play a divine mind who isn't devoted to Uthgar or who can't worship him because they aren't playing a game set in the Forgotten Realms? He's the only deity who grants those four mantles, and you can't even get a fourth because Divine Minds cap out at 3.

You aren't locked into your choices except for the physical power one. You can easily us elements or something else.

Edit- I am also using the one that gives weapon focus. Most of my numbers are based on those. Others are things that can be slotted into the 3rd choice. Justice was an example, and one that could be swapped around with a few choices.

If you want to bring Turning into this, sure; but what are you going to use them for? Most turning feats are pretty garbage and require a lot of daily uses, and you're going to need to pump up your charisma score even further to get the most out of it.

There are a few good feats that may be worth looking into, but mostly its just that getting 3 turns a day is better than a charisma 8s bonus to saves. Like I said before stat allocation are a build choice and neither are in a much greater need than the other for stats. Strength and Dex vs strength and wisdom.

But really the ACF that matters the most is the swapping wild talent for the upgrade that is exactly the same but gives a power.

Further, I can't help but feel like you're underselling the barbarian in all this.

Maybe a little, a lot of what I've seen puts barbarians into tier 4 mainly on the basis of there rage, which is easily quantifible in what it does

Edit because of your edit- I am using the base barbarian not as a which class is better comparison, but because it is an easily used example of tier 4. The ACFs it could take are almost irrelevant to the fact that the base barbarian is tier 4.

[Muggins]

I'm going to spoiler this because I don't think this argument is going to go anywhere anymore.

Spoiler: The Divine Mind Discussion

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No, there strengths a can easily be the same

Those abilities are nice, but I am also forgoing the fact that the DM is sharing his aura, and other abilities he could be using as they are less relevent toface smashing and harder to quantify. He could easily for go points in charisma, and only needs a 12 wisdom for most levels. He has heavy armor proficiency so can afford a lower dex to make up for these pts

Let's say we have a 32 point buy. Mister Barbarian has 18/12/16/8/10/8 as his stats, because he doesn't need any mental ability scores. Mister Divine Mind has 16/10/14/8/16/12 because he's going to want Psychic Meditation, some wisdom for his manifesting, and some charisma for his Divine Grace. Alternatively he can go for 18/10/15/8/12/10, ignoring one of his class features entirely (Divine Grace) and relying on magic items to boost his wisdom and charisma so that he can use the abilities which supposedly make them comparable to a barbarian in damage potential. At the same time, though, a barbarian can improve his weapon or improve his other stats, just like you can.

As for your aura, it extends out to 5ft at level 1 and grows by 5ft every two levels thereafter. Your allies aren't always going to be standing adjacent to you. As for other abilities; what other abilities? You've specced yourself into Ulfgar, so your mantle options are restricted to Conflict (combat), Freedom (combat, fly, teleport), Natural World (combat, because you can't sneak or scout), and Physical Power (combat). You say:

You aren't locked into your choices except for the physical power one. You can easily us elements or something else.

But this super-powerful, better-than-barbarian build has explicitly locked you into being a poor imitator of a barbarian. And Adrenaline Boost is an awful power which should not be considered equivalent to a rage, because it lasts for a single round and it gives you nothing but a paltry +2 to strength and dexterity.

Further, and I hate to nit-pick what is obviously an off-hand comment, but you can't combine Physical Power and Elements. There are no deities who have both of those mantles, so you're SOL. I cannot stress enough how difficult it is to produce the combination of ideal mantles, granted powers, and auras that you're suggesting.

Unless the base barbarian is tier 5, and only with ACFs does he reach tier 4 this is not something I need to take into account.

What does this have to do with that I said? The argument was, as I recall:

• You: The Divine Mind can Pounce and the Barbarian can't. Ergo, it is better at dealing damage.
• Me: But the Barbarian can get Pounce and does more consistent damage. I don't agree.
• You, now: But the Barbarian is Tier 4 even without Pounce. Therefore, your argument is invalid.

Tell me if I've got something wrong, but weren't we talking about how the Divine Mind getting Pounce doesn't make him better than a Barbarian?

I counted greater rage, either can have power attack, and the strength score is build choice, they can both put an 18 or 8 there.

Maybe a little, a lot of what I've seen puts barbarians into tier 4 mainly on the basis of there rage, which is easily quantifible in what it does

It's great of you to say that you're considering the barbarian's class features, but you're clearly not. By the time your much-lauded Adrenaline Boost becomes "comparable" to the Barbarian's Rage (with +4 strength, +4 dexterity for 1 round at the cost of 7 power points) the Divine Mind is level 11, and the Barbarian gets Greater Rage (+6 strength, +6 constitution, +3 will, -2 AC) at the same time.

Either cannot have power attack, because the barbarian's got a better to-hit (via higher BAB and strength) and can afford the penalty while the divine mind cannot. And, again; you have other stats to worry about, the barbarian does not.

[Lans]

I'm going to spoiler this because I don't think this argument is going to go anywhere anymore.

Spoiler: The Divine Mind Discussion

Show

Let's say we have a 32 point buy. Mister Barbarian has 18/12/16/8/10/8 as his stats, because he doesn't need any mental ability scores. Mister Divine Mind has 16/10/14/8/16/12 because he's going to want Psychic Meditation, some wisdom for his manifesting, and some charisma for his Divine Grace. Alternatively he can go for 18/10/15/8/12/10, ignoring one of his class features entirely (Divine Grace) and relying on magic items to boost his wisdom and charisma so that he can use the abilities which supposedly make them comparable to a barbarian in damage potential. At the same time, though, a barbarian can improve his weapon or improve his other stats, just like you can.

Spoiler: The Divine Mind Discussion

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Or the Divine mind could go 18/10/14/8/14/10. I mean, yeah when he gets 5th level powers he will need an item, but until 17th level he is fine.

As for your aura, it extends out to 5ft at level 1 and grows by 5ft every two levels thereafter. Your allies aren't always going to be standing adjacent to you. As for other abilities; what other abilities? You've specced yourself into Ulfgar, so your mantle options are restricted to Conflict (combat), Freedom (combat, fly, teleport), Natural World (combat, because you can't sneak or scout), and Physical Power (combat). You say:

Ok, I don't have as much wiggle room with this as I thought I did. I thought Physical Power had metamorphisis on it, and the Justice mantle was an off hand through something out example. But until the divine mind could still make choices that gives him options in exchange for not being able to take metamorphisis at 14th level. As for being locked in to a certain build- This is a certain build. He could also be built to be a wizard buddy that gives a higher initiative to a spell caster.

But this super-powerful, better-than-barbarian build has explicitly locked you into being a poor imitator of a barbarian. And Adrenaline Boost is an awful power which should not be considered equivalent to a rage, because it lasts for a single round and it gives you nothing but a paltry +2 to strength and dexterity.

I didn't say my build was better than a barbarian build, I said it was comparable, and I didn't say that Adrenaline boost was equivalent of rage. I've used multiple abilities to balance out against rage. Adrenaline boost gave +2 and the physical power mantle gave +2. Yes I know it is only for 1 round, but that is why I have been saying comparable. +2 to damage for the first round for 2 fights, then -1 to hit for the rest of the encounter, and +2/5 for the first round of 2 other fights with +1/3 to damage for the rest of the fight.

Further, and I hate to nit-pick what is obviously an off-hand comment, but you can't combine Physical Power and Elements. There are no deities who have both of those mantles, so you're SOL. I cannot stress enough how difficult it is to produce the combination of ideal mantles, granted powers, and auras that you're suggesting.

It was also the wrong mantle, the energy one gives elemental damage, most of what I need are conflict and physical power and apparently natural world because my memory was foggy on that aspect.

But yeah a class with a lot of options is harder to do than one with fewer options.

What does this have to do with that I said? The argument was, as I recall:

• You: The Divine Mind can Pounce and the Barbarian can't. Ergo, it is better at dealing damage.
• Me: But the Barbarian can get Pounce and does more consistent damage. I don't agree.
• You, now: But the Barbarian is Tier 4 even without Pounce. Therefore, your argument is invalid.

Tell me if I've got something wrong, but weren't we talking about how the Divine Mind getting Pounce doesn't make him better than a Barbarian?

My comparison was against the base barbarian, as we were not taking ACFs into account in this thread at that time. I have been objecting to the barbarians more consistent damage.

It's great of you to say that you're considering the barbarian's class features, but you're clearly not. By the time your much-lauded Adrenaline Boost becomes "comparable" to the Barbarian's Rage (with +4 strength, +4 dexterity for 1 round at the cost of 7 power points) the Divine Mind is level 11, and the Barbarian gets Greater Rage (+6 strength, +6 constitution, +3 will, -2 AC) at the same time.

Like i said earlier, I have been using the physical power mantle to give +2 to strength for the first round of combat, which I was balancing against the barbarians limited rages, like when I said 2 rages a day made the barbarian clearly better at 4th level. The increased will save from the rage is balanced against the high save of the divine mind. The constitution is nice, but the hps disappear once the combat is over and the lower AC will leave you taking more damage.

Either cannot have power attack, because the barbarian's got a better to-hit (via higher BAB and strength) and can afford the penalty while the divine mind cannot. And, again; you have other stats to worry about, the barbarian does not.

You are overstating how much the divine mind has to worry about other stats, the only thing that makes the barbarian have a higher strength is his rage, and even then it is only at certain times for a few seconds each day, leaving the divine mind to have an equal strength at times, and higher during other times.

Like I said earlier, I am not saying he is better at beating face over all, just that he is better sometimes, worse at others and that when it comes to overall beat faceness they are comparable.

[Muggins]

I think the crux of it is that I just don't think the Divine Mind does enough damage to be considered competent at the role; to this end, he's probably closer to the Fighter or Battle Dancer than he is to the Barbarian. Maybe his versatility helps him out there, but you can't change out any of your options on the fly and the deity restriction on mantles really clamps down on the possible combinations.

I'll be giving it some more thought, anyhow.

[Lans]

Would you argue against metamorphisis being good enough to justify tier 4 status from when its obtained, on to level 20? Not for the class over all, but for those levels.

[Troacctid]

At half-ML? Sure, I'd argue against it. It also locks you into a mantle that doesn't offer very much else, right?

[Muggins]

Would you argue against metamorphisis being good enough to justify tier 4 status from when its obtained, on to level 20? Not for the class over all, but for those levels.

Possibly?

Let's look at some of the deities who get Natural World, since metamorphosis is such a good power that I don't rightly see it being easily ignored in mid- or high-OP play.

Spoiler

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• Ehlonna gives Good, Guardian, Light and Darkness, and Natural World. Guardian's okay, because you give your allies scaling DR as an aura and you get Damp Power, Wall of Ectoplasm, Protection from Psionics, and Mind over Energy as solid power options. That's about it, though.
• Obad-Hai gives Communication, Elements, Life, and Natural World. Life has a nice aura that's unfortunately upstaged by a 4th-level spell (a bonus against Death effects? Death Ward says hello) and gets you some good healing powers. Nothing else worth noting.
• Chauntea gives Good, Guardian, Life, and Natural World. With a decent wisdom, this could be good for the reasons that Guardian and Life are good. Probably my pick, although she is FR-specific.
• Malar gives Chaos, Evil, Natural World, and Physical Power. Inconstant Location from Chaos would make for an alright capstone, but there's some significant overlap between Physical Power and Natural World that really sours this option for me. Again, FR-specific.
• Mielikki gives Freedom, Good, Life, and Natural World. Freedom has a stellar list of powers, and Life and Natural World make for a great combined list. FR-specific.
• Silvanus gives Guardian, Life, Natural World, and Repose. I'm starting to see a theme here. Repose lets you and your allies ignore fatigue, and exhaustion becomes fatigue, but you're still explicitly fatigued so no funny tricks for the barbarian. Its powers are a mixed bag, with Empty Mind and Steadfast Perception being the only real notables, but Life and Natural World can do the heavy lifting. FR-specific.
• Talos and Umberlee both give Chaos, Destruction, Evil, and Natural World. Destruction does nothing interesting until level 20, when it gives you Disintegration, and that's competing for a spot with Chaos' Inconstant Location. FR-specific.
• Uthgar, as already discussed, does have some potential for a straightforward damage build. FR-specific.
• Arawai gives Good, Guardian, Life, and Natural World. See Chauntea. Eberron-specific.
• Balinor gives Elements, Guardian, Natural World, and Repose. Might be doable, but there are better options.
• The Devourer gives Destruction, Evil, Natural World, and Pain and Suffering. Pain and Suffering gives a useful granted power, a tiny damage boost from your aura, and a pretty decent list that unfortunately demands a high wisdom for save DCs. I could see it working, though. Eberron-specific.

The thing is, with many of these mantles, the power isn't in their aura or their granted ability, but in their powers - and some of them, like Guardian, Life, Natural World, and Pain and Suffering, are actually good at what they set out to do. Maybe they won't excel, maybe they won't have the sheer power that some other classes are capable of, but I definitely think that some careful planning (and especially with the Ectopic Ally ACF) they're capable of some business.

That is, if you can afford all those powers. The base class has a pithy selection of powers per level (you get roughly two powers known per power level, worse than all but the soulknife) and your power points/day is abysmal. You need to pump your wisdom as high as it'll go, and you'll probably always feel inferior to a psychic warrior or an ardent, but that's tough. Because I think you'll need all the power points you can muster to squeeze the semi-competence hiding in the core of this class.

Edit: This.

At half-ML? Sure, I'd argue against it. It also locks you into a mantle that doesn't offer very much else, right?

This is the issue. To be fair, it's not that bad; your ML is CL-4, not half your CL, though at level 14 that's practically the case. But it still feels like everything this class tries to do well, it can't, because it throttles you with its awful manifester progression (meaning reduced power potency, fewer bonus power points for a high ability score, and so on), and its crummy manifesting is honestly the best thing this class has to offer. I guess there's always Practiced Manifester?

[Aimeryan]

Crusader: I really wish "Tier 3.5" was a thing, because Crusaders are the first of several classes that I think properly fit there-- phenomenally flexible and powerful in the ways of violence, but without any real options outside of that-- a secondary or tertiary Charisma score and two social skills nowithstanding. I guess they sort of become Tier 4 for want of noncombat options.

I am not familiar with the Crusader; I'm only somewhat familiar with most of the core classes. I am very familiar with Psychic Warrior, though, and interestingly what you are saying here about Crusader is exactly what I would say about the Psychic Warrior (minus having any social skills at all and no Charisma). The Psychic Warrior is great in combat, in a violent sort of way only, but has nothing outside of that. Barbarian is Tier 4, but Psychic Warrior doesn't really do much more than it does; especially when you take into account WBL (or a caster friend) to make up for the difference in tactical mobility (dimension slide, fly-with-freedom-mantle, etc.).

Anyhow, Psychic Warrior is tier 3 in JaronK's lists, but I always thought it should be Tier 4, or maybe more appropriately your "Tier 3.5". I say this because I feel like there is a Tier 4 and then there is a tier that is like Tier 4 but somewhat improved on but not in ways that change what that class is capable of. It is like saying "here is a shoe, here is a shoe that has been shined up somewhat"; is there a difference? Yeah, but at the end of the day it is still just a shoe.

Maybe just Tier 4+, then. Tiers to me should be about capability, not how effective the classes are relative to each other at the same thing - a "+" or "-" should denote that. What Cosi said;

"I also don't think the Sorcerer is necessarily clearly better outside that, but that argument is pretty bad. If better classes push out worse ones, the Archivist would push the Wizard and Cleric out of Tier One because it can get all Wizard and all Cleric spells with appropriate shenanigans. The tiers are supposed to be absolute, not relative.

~~~

As a side note, I've stopped paying attention to what the tier list is going to end up looking like - it isn't helping me in any way, especially when most people are just putting a number and no explanation meaning the overall result is just diluted by low-value responses. The well reasoned and flowing debates of some of the posters here in the thread are far more valuable to me; please keep doing so!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Anyhow, Psychic Warrior is tier 3 in JaronK's lists, but I always thought it should be Tier 4, or maybe more appropriately your "Tier 3.5".

I dunno, I think the PsiWar has a lot more room for noncombat stuff than the ToB classes. The Mantled Warrior ACF alone...

[Aimeryan]

I dunno, I think the PsiWar has a lot more room for noncombat stuff than the ToB classes. The Mantled Warrior ACF alone...

As eager as I am to explore this, we should probably wait for the discussion to get to Psychic Warrior first; I only brought it up to expand on how tiering around 3 and 4 seems to become a one-upmanship of basically doing the same thing yet people want to put them in different tiers for being somewhat more effective at doing that same one thing - which leads more to a Tier 4+ or a Tier 3.5 than being Tier 3.

[BaronDoctor]

Nice metaphor. Almost wish it were shorter, so that I could sig it.

Well, let me see what I can do to refine it to fit in a tweet, give or take.

T3: Carries a set of hand tools.
T2: Carries Mjolnir, hammer of "Everything is a nail".
T1: Has storage locker full of legendary weapons and tools and can carry several.

[Troacctid]

So here's my argument for Crusader (and Warblade by association) as T3. They're not just good at combat. That's an oversimplification. They can fill multiple roles in combat. They can be a striker, a defender, and a leader (to use 4e terminology), and they can do all of them at the same time and do all of them very well. Those are usually separate roles, and most T4 classes can only really specialize in one of them, so to say "Oh, they're only good at 'combat,' that's just one thing," is really selling them short. Furthermore, unlike many lower-tier classes, they actually have skill points and class skills (mainly Diplomacy) offering them real versatility even in noncombat situations, allowing them to act as a backup face or whatever. That oughta count for something.

I dunno, I think the PsiWar has a lot more room for noncombat stuff than the ToB classes. The Mantled Warrior ACF alone...

They've got some nice utility powers even on their regular list. Dimension door, call item, and levitate, for example.

[Aimeryan]

They've got some nice utility powers even on their regular list. Dimension door, call item, and levitate, for example.

Most utility they have is a) limited to only themselves, b) movement-related, and/or c) specific to a mantle. WBL makes this moot most of the time, similarly so with having a caster friend. I feel these abilities would make a naked friendless Psychic Warrior more useful in more situations than say a naked friendless Barbarian, but otherwise... they don't give access to unique features (or difficult to acquire features) that would make me think this is worthy of a tier upgrade - unless we are presuming WBL is not to be included in discussion on tiering?

Things I am talking about: Expansion [Self-only] (can be acquired via Potion/Wand/Ring of Expand Person), Fly [Self-only, Movement, Mantle] (many items/races), Psionic Lion's Charge [Self-only, Movement] (many ways - usually as Pounce), etc. These are all useful but can all be done by a Barbarian too, if not by feats then by items - and items can be transferred as needed so they are often way more useful than a self-only ability.

Call Item is one of the exceptions, however, not being able to call a specific item often limits it to being no better than just having carried a generic item of that type in the first place -you can't for example call the specific key to open a lock, or an opponent's ring, or the deed to this piece of land, or the chain holding something in place, etc. There is also a limit of 10gp (augmentable) to the value of the item and the item can't be used as a component in spells. Most such items that fit generic, cheap, and useful will probably already be carried by the party unless they are inexperienced at playing D&D. That is not to say that it is not useful (sometimes you'll miss having thought of carrying something you really should have), but I just don't feel it is enough to go from Tier 4 to Tier 3 for.

Ah, we've got ahead of ourselves; should we carry on this discussion about Psychic Warrior tiering before it's appointed time?

[Muggins]

To be fair, you can use Call Item to summon a plethora of alchemical and pseudo-magical items, and for that reason alone I consider it to be one of the best 1st-level powers around. I think that, combined with the selection of a key mantle - Knowledge, Freedom, or Creation, for example - Psychic Warrior just has too much versatility to be considered Tier 4, especially when you consider the Tap Mantle feat.

That being said, let's bring it back to the Crusader. There's a reason that Barbarian is Tier 4 because he can only do "damage," and a reason that Crusader (and probably the other martial adepts) should be considered superior. I think the tactical feats from ToB, the healing and support of Devoted Spirit, and the commanding capabilities of White Raven are enough to make their shtick not just "damage," but "damage, and everyone else is just better."

[Aimeryan]

By that logic, though, any class should be Tier 3 since any class could buy those goods. We aren't talking expensive stuff here; generic cheap items aren't rare, and because they are cheap you will likely already have items that are often useful. It takes a rare situation that you a) need an item that you can't get by buying it but can by this power, b) haven't already got, c) wont accept a substitute method.

[Muggins]

By that logic, though, any class should be Tier 3 since any class could buy those goods. We aren't talking expensive stuff here; generic cheap items aren't rare, and because they are cheap you will likely already have items that are often useful. It takes a rare situation that you a) need an item that you can't get by buying it but can by this power, b) haven't already got, c) wont accept a substitute method.

Torchbug paste for revealing invisible creatures, sleep-smoke to functionally replicate Sleep, stonebreaker acid to mow down walls like clay; the list goes on, and there's something to be said about a low-level power than has such utility. Maybe you can afford to have every single one of those items in your pocket at higher levels, but this power does provide a spontaneous answer to a surprising number of problems, and that's worth something. You can even use it to generate a chaos flask or shapesand!

Regardless, my argument is that I think that the combination of Call Item and Mantles is what makes the Tier 3 slot justified. I don't know whether not having them makes them drop a whole tier, though.

[Troacctid]

Call item doesn't actually impose restrictions on size or weight, so you can call items that you might not be able to carry normally.

[stanprollyright]

Re: Why This Thread Is A Good Idea No Matter What:
Every ranking is subjective and based on every other ranking, and we can debate definitions for a decade. The only way to really legitimize such a subjective topic is to form a consensus. A bigger sample size would be nice, but this is what we got to work with.

Re: Build Versatility As It Pertains To Tiering Classes Like Dread Necro and Beguiler vs. Favored Soul and Sorcerer:
Build versatility has never been a factor in any other tiers - I don't see why it needs to be one for tier 2. Fighter has more build options than Barbarian or Ranger, but is in a lower tier because build versatility is not the same as character versatility. In the same vein, virtually every Druid gets Natural Spell and Augment Summoning.

Re: Crusader:
I just don't see the Crusader as having as many options as a Ranger with spells and an Animal Companion, or having numbers significantly higher than the Barbarian. You're hitting stuff with a stick 90% of the time, and maybe you have ranks in Diplomacy. The number of encounters you can solve with relative effort is about on par with those classes, rather than Bard, Beguiler, and Factotum.

[Muggins]

I think the reason I have trouble seeing the Crusader (along with the other martial adepts, the Psychic Warrior, and many other "utility fighter" classes) as Tier 4 is because of these lines in the original Tier System:

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

The Crusader, and the other classes which relate to this discussion, don't fit this category. The class doesn't sabotage itself (see: Divine Mind) and has some potency even when compared to something like a Wizard. Meanwhile:

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

The Crusader does damage, and healing, and support, and can issue commands; these are all dimensions of combat, yes, but most martial classes just do damage. Its recovery mechanic is easily abused, and the 1d2 Crusader is a pretty well-known specimen. They get enough skill points to max out Diplomacy and Intimidate, and the charisma focus to actually make them useful.

And I think we can all honestly say that they pretty much invalidate the Battle Dancer, the Monk, or even the Fighter, can't we?

[GilesTheCleric]

stan, I think I need to agree with Muggins here. Crusaders can do more than just hit things with sticks.

Let's take a quick look at manoeuvers:

Devoted Spirit lets you:

get rerolls (Aura of Perfect Order)
heal (many)
goad (Defensive Rebuke)
debuff (Entangling Blade)
be invincible (Immortal Fortitude)
buff allies (Shield Block, Vanguard Strike)
BFC (Thicket of Blades)

Stone Dragon lets you:

destroy objects/ terrain (many)
ability damage (Bonesplitting Strike)
move enemies (many)
BFC (X Vise, Earthquake Strike)
shut down casters (Irresistable Mountain Strike)
buff (Roots of the Mountain)

White Raven lets you:

buff (Bolstering Voice)
+action economy (many)
+movement (many)
debuff (Covering Strike, White Raven Strike)
SoL (White Raven Hammer)

Many of those abilities are combat-only, but things like Aura of Perfect Order basically gives you pseudo-advantage on every roll you make. That's pretty great no matter what you're doing. Destroying terrain is very good in dungeons or for subverting traps. Really, the things they lack are flight, immunities, and targeted skill improvements.

Few of these abilities are going to just end an encounter the way a caster can, but they do enable the Crusader to have a lot of powerful, tactical options -- versatility -- to engage with their foes in the most beneficial way at the time.

To me, Crusaders seem highly versatile in combat, and able to contribute meaningfully to a decent number of out-of-combat scenarios, provided their Wizard buddy didn't just solve it outright before they could contribute. There's probably some manoeuvers from other disciplines that do provide those bonuses, which any ToB class is going to find fairly easy to pick up via feats.

[Aimeryan]

I think the reason I have trouble seeing the Crusader (along with the other martial adepts, the Psychic Warrior, and many other "utility fighter" classes) as Tier 4 is because of these lines in the original Tier System:


The Crusader, and the other classes which relate to this discussion, don't fit this category. The class doesn't sabotage itself (see: Divine Mind) and has some potency even when compared to something like a Wizard. Meanwhile:


The Crusader does damage, and healing, and support, and can issue commands; these are all dimensions of combat, yes, but most martial classes just do damage. Its recovery mechanic is easily abused, and the 1d2 Crusader is a pretty well-known specimen. They get enough skill points to max out Diplomacy and Intimidate, and the charisma focus to actually make them useful.

And I think we can all honestly say that they pretty much invalidate the Battle Dancer, the Monk, or even the Fighter, can't we?

See I think this is why I agree with the whole Tier 3.5; I agree that Psychic Warrior (and maybe Crusader from what I've been reading) can do more than just "doing one thing quite well", but I don't think they can truly "be useful when that one thing is inappropriate [or impossible]". The Psychic Warrior can do something else other than its one thing, maybe even two things (ubercharger and tripping, say), but I feel when the situation isn't suited to that the class isn't really any more useful than say a Barbarian would be. However, because of having things like Dimension Door, Fly, Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, etc. those situations are less likely to pop up in the first place - which is why I feel a Tier 3.5 is appropriate.

Tier 3.5 to me would be; same limitations as Tier 4 but less likely for them to crop up to be an issue. You are still dependent on the one (or two) things you do, but you can do things that help ensure that you can do those things. That said, a Barbarian can get Fly, can get short range teleports, can get Freedom of Movement, can get Mind Blank - it just requires using WBL to do so. A good resource for these sorts of things is here; I feel when you take those into account and still say Barbarian is Tier 4 then I don't see why you couldn't say the same thing for Psychic Warrior (and maybe Crusader).

I might be missing something with why the Mantle ACF would change this, if so, fair enough - but then maybe that is one of those cases that it would be Psychic Warrior (with Mantled Warrior ACF), rather than just Psychic Warrior.

[Grod_The_Giant]

See I think this is why I agree with the whole Tier 3.5

Tier 3.5: Capable of doing one thing (usually combat) quite well, with different approaches and tactics for different situations, but with a limited ability to contribute outside of that. Shines when the encounter is up their ally, and fades into the background when it isn't. Can take some thought to challenge at their schtick, but can be easily sidelined. Will overshadow T4s and even some T3s with similar specializations. A few more utility powers and they'd be fine T3 characters. Examples: Crusader, Duskblade, Warmage.

[Pleh]

Unfortunately, adding a tier now would prompt us to start the voting all over so people can include it in their votes.

The thread really isn't meant for discussion about ways to improve on the tier system anyway. We can make another thread to discuss the merits or necessity of a T3.5.

The question is, "where do you think x class fits on the jaronk tier system?" If your answer is, "I don't think it does," fine. The next question is "what would be the closest fit if you had to choose?" It's not "how could we improve the tier system?"

That question deserves to have a thread to itself so it doesn't derail this one.

I recommend voting in this thread with an open hand. That is to say, let it be what it is, don't clench a fist over what the right answer is. This doesn't have to be perfect or better than JaronK's work. The important thing right now is focusing on doing what we're doing the best we can. Let's just try to enjoy seeing what comes out of this.

We don't have to be so personally invested that we can't enjoy it if it doesn't turn out exactly as we expect.

[Cosi]

The thread really isn't meant for discussion about ways to improve on the tier system anyway. We can make another thread to discuss the merits or necessity of a T3.5.

I have created a thread for that kind of discussion.

[Aimeryan]

@Pleh: Not sure I'm saying Crusader (and when we get to it, Psychic Warrior) should be assigned to Tier 3.5 - to be honest, I'm not really paying much attention to what the tier list is looking like. I think I am more interested in the discussion on these classes being somewhere not quite reaching Tier 3's description but still having surpassed Tier 4's and the reasons why. Whether Crusader actually gets voted Tier 3 or 4 won't matter to a lot of us from what I am gathering - mainly because the vote is getting washed out by non-reasoned postings, but also perhaps because the tiering system is a bit too limited at times to feel that it is accurate.

[Lans]

Maybe we should take a look at what Crusaders can't do, to figure out if they should be in tier 3 or not?

[stanprollyright]

stan, I think I need to agree with Muggins here. Crusaders can do more than just hit things with sticks

I understand that Crusaders have a lot of build options (many different sticks), but any given Crusader would be hard-pressed to do all of the above with any degree of competence. The recovery mechanic actively encourages redundancy and discourages too diverse a maneuver list because you might not necessarily have the maneuver you want at the right time. Few maneuvers have the encounter-stopping power of a spell, and you need build resources to make many of them viable. For instance: Thicket of Blades is not sufficient on its own to make you a controller - you need Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, a decent Dex, and maybe Improved Trip and Knockdown to call yourself one (all the while choking down your envy at Black Tentacles). You'd have to really specialize in White Raven and have the right party composition to be a buffer on par with a Bard, and you'll never be as good a face or skill monkey either.

All of that goes along with the idea that a versatile combatant is not necessarily a versatile character. "Killing bad guys before they kill you" is kinda only one thing, no matter how many ways you have to do it. There is indeed something to be said about being able to deal damage and status effects in different ways to different types of creatures, and to avoid the same. However, Crusaders are primarily a frontline tank class who's actions are almost always spent in melee range with a weapon making sure your party has more HP at the end. You can specialize in this role and be The Unbreakable Steamroller with a couple underwhelming tricks, or you can have lots of underwhelming tricks with none of the benefits of specialization.

Maybe I've just never seen a really optimized Crusader that wasn't a one-trick-pony, but I've always thought that Warblade and Swordsage were fundamentally more versatile and more deserving of a Tier 3 rank than a Crusader, who sorta blurs the line between 3 and 4.

[GilesTheCleric]

but any given Crusader would be hard-pressed to do all of the above with any degree of competence.

All of that goes along with the idea that a versatile combatant is not necessarily a versatile character.

Maybe I've just never seen a really optimized Crusader that wasn't a one-trick-pony, but I've always thought that Warblade and Swordsage were fundamentally more versatile and more deserving of a Tier 3 rank than a Crusader, who sorta blurs the line between 3 and 4.

I think that the manoeuvers themselves grant a decent enough amount of competence such that a Crusader only needs to pump their to-hit, reach, and attacks/ rd to do well. Whether it's enough competency to put them on the versatile side of T3 is debatable.

Character vs. combatant is a great point. Crusaders do suffer compared to other T3s like Bards in terms of being a good all-around character, but as I mentioned above, I think that Aura of Perfect Order and all the X Hammer abilities do give them quite a lot of character versatility. Getting an automatic 11 on any check is a huge boost to consistency, if not actual contribution.

I also haven't seen any Crusaders who aren't one-trick ponies, but that's sort of a consequence of this game -- specialising is usually the optimal approach. Do any classes under T2 not specialise? If some don't, then that might be a good argument for which tier they belong in. It seems like on paper only T3 wouldn't need to specialise, but I can't think of any T3 classes offhand that don't do it regardless. I agree that the two other classes do have a better claim to T3 than does the Crusader. The random factor of their refresh mechanic does really leave them on that blurry line you mention.

[javcs]

I think that the manoeuvers themselves grant a decent enough amount of competence such that a Crusader only needs to pump their to-hit, reach, and attacks/ rd to do well. Whether it's enough competency to put them on the versatile side of T3 is debatable.

Character vs. combatant is a great point. Crusaders do suffer compared to other T3s like Bards in terms of being a good all-around character, but as I mentioned above, I think that Aura of Perfect Order and all the X Hammer abilities do give them quite a lot of character versatility. Getting an automatic 11 on any check is a huge boost to consistency, if not actual contribution.

I also haven't seen any Crusaders who aren't one-trick ponies, but that's sort of a consequence of this game -- specialising is usually the optimal approach. Do any classes under T2 not specialise? If some don't, then that might be a good argument for which tier they belong in. It seems like on paper only T3 wouldn't need to specialise, but I can't think of any T3 classes offhand that don't do it regardless. I agree that the two other classes do have a better claim to T3 than does the Crusader. The random factor of their refresh mechanic does really leave them on that blurry line you mention.

Eh ... the only classes T3-6 that don't automatically specialize are the handful of ones where their strength and main selling point is their versatility, the biggest and strongest example of which is the Factotum.

[noce]

Can I vote only classes I'm familiar with?

Crusader: 3,4
Highly competent in his main role (tanking), competent in his secondary roles (damage dealing, melee buffing).
Still decent outside of his roles and outside of combat, thanks to 4+int skills with intimidate and diplomacy as class skills, boosted will save, mettle, embedded save-reroll feature.

Dragon Shaman: 5,4,6
The fact that I love the class flavor, but I can't convince myself playing a Dragon Shaman, says a lot.
Crappy BaB and armor/weapon proficiencies, 2+int skills, skill list useful only with certain dragons.
Those things could be unimportant if class features were good, but they aren't: you only have a semi-useful 1/encounter breath weapon, semi-useful auras, and you can save moneys on lesser vigor wands.
To be competent in melee you need feats, to have a relevant breath weapon you need feats, to have two auras at the same time you need a feat, too.
Highly unfocused, highly feat starved, can be outright worhless if picking the wrong dragon.

Dragonfire Adept: 4,3,5
On certain aspects, warlock on steroids.
You can deal significant amounts of damage at high levels, fly at will, and invocation selection is versatile enough.
If you have another breath weapon (e.g. through dragonborn), this class can be quite strong depending on DM (you can take metabreath feats, but can you apply them on class breath? Some DMs say you can).

Dread Necromancer: 3,4
Highly flavourful. Unfortunately this flavor often is unsuitable in the campaign you're playing, or puts you at risk.
Not as versatile as a beguiler, with less skill points and worse skill list.
You're still a caster and a competent one, and you can do your shtick better than a sorcerer.