Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

[eggynack]

A sorcerer can't out-beguiler a beguiler. At least, not with only moderate optimization. I don't think anybody's arguing that one can.

That's not what I was saying. I'm asking whether, in terms of sheer tier system themed problem solving capacity, the sorcerer is capable of beating the beguiler at any particular level. Can you pick spells that are, if not more illusiony than those of the beguiler, at least, y'know, better? For example, you're essentially certain to fail to pick a better spell list at first level. After all, do you really think you can pick two spells that are better than the 14 spells on the beguiler list, keeping in mind that some of those beguiler spells are ones the sorcerer might well pick if trying to optimize? So, if they fail at that level, when do they succeed? If possible, support your answer with some justification.

What the sorcerer can do, however, is outdo the beguiler at pretty much anything else you would play an arcane caster as. If you want a tricksy illusion/enchantment specialist, you're usually better off as a beguiler instead of a sorcerer.

The thing is, I don't really care what a class is specialized in. It doesn't matter that the sorcerer is inevitably better at necromancy than a beguiler is. All that matters is what a class can actually do, in terms of challenge defeating. So, like, you're talking about being better at anything else, which implies that they're better at anything else all the time. So, 6th level. The sorcerer is getting one spell. Which spell are you picking, such that you can solve problems better than a beguiler can with their 20 spells? If I were to present you, not with an encounter that would trivially be solved through enchantment, but just with some arbitrary random encounter or problem, would you truly take that one spell over those 20? If not, then what about next level, when you get two spells, still to the beguiler's 20?

Which level, and what spells?

And, IMO, that ability to pick your trick(s) can be valuable. I suppose that it's probably somewhat campaign and DM dependent as to whether the sorcerer's ability to pick outweighs the specialist's stronger focus.

Again, this really isn't part of the tier system. If you can't think of a single set of spells that would outdo the beguiler, again, not in necromancy, or enchantment, or conjuration, but just in terms of general capacity to do things, the ability to overcome some collection of trials and save the world, then the idea that the sorcerer is better is truly unjustifiable. It is my contention that picking such spells is possible at a certain point in the game, but not before that. Depending on which level you think it is, tier two or three would make sense. The correct level is clearly not one, and I'd assert it's not six or seven either, but, y'know, if you gots a spell list to prove me wrong, go ahead. It wasn't a rhetorical question. I think the correct level falls between 10 and 12, and that this, especially in combination with superior spell adding technique and the return to equivalence at level 19 with advanced learning for ice assassin, means tier two.

Maybe you have a different level, and/or maybe you evaluate that kind of comparative power differently. This is the comparison that exists though, both with the beguiler and with the dread necromancer. And, again, if your only basis for tier three is that you can build sorcerers in multiple ways, and that you can build them specifically for niches that a beguiler can't touch all that well, then I don't think you have any basis for tier three whatsoever.

[Troacctid]

If all of the possible permutations of a Sorcerer are at the same level as T3 classes, then the Sorcerer is T3. Simple enough, yeah?

[stanprollyright]

By that logic, there shouldn't be a tier 2

[eggynack]

If all of the possible permutations of a Sorcerer are at the same level as T3 classes, then the Sorcerer is T3. Simple enough, yeah?

That'd be such a weird outcome. Sorcerers are essentially the defining class of tier two. If they were shunted to tier three, because of the rating of fixed list classes combined with logic, then tier two would more or less not exist. Should tier two not exist? Maybe. It'd produce a tier three even more ridiculously broad than it already is though. I think I have to let that settle in my head as a possibility for a bit.

Edit: For the record though, I'm inclined to think that the opposite path makes a lot more sense. Sorcerers, beguilers, and dread necromancers all hanging out in tier two, and the significantly less magically oriented bards representing approximately the high water mark of tier three.

[stanprollyright]

Maybe we should revote on fixed-list casters once the tier list is completed. It's all relative anyway.

EDIT: eggynack keeps taking thoughts out of my head

[Troacctid]

That'd be such a weird outcome. Sorcerers are essentially the defining class of tier two. If they were shunted to tier three, because of the rating of fixed list classes combined with logic, then tier two would more or less not exist. Should tier two not exist? Maybe. It'd produce a tier three even more ridiculously broad than it already is though. I think I have to let that settle in my head as a possibility for a bit.

It feels weird to me too, but that's where the train of logic leads if you start from those premises.

I mean, unless you really overvalue high-level spells, but that approach is problematic for other reasons.

[GilesTheCleric]

Edit: For the record though, I'm inclined to think that the opposite path makes a lot more sense. Sorcerers, beguilers, and dread necromancers all hanging out in tier two, and the significantly less magically oriented bards representing approximately the high water mark of tier three.

After seeing everyone's arguments for and against those three classes, I would agree that they're probably well-suited for T2.

I don't think anyone even touched on the DN's rebuke undead, which aside from DMM, can also be used for devotion feats, powering up your CL, or flat-out winning encounters against anyone who has a subtype or opposed alignment. I haven't done an in-depth look on it, but the DN's fear aura could probably stack with one of several Cleric fear spells to create a potent fear-based build (provided they're necro, not ench). Scabrous Touch is a nice addition to a debuffing build. With advanced learning for Undead Lieutenant (a weak choice compared to some options, sure, but I had fun with it in a build), the DN can even do two approaches at once, leaving the minionmancy to the Lieutenant while they debuff/ blast/ fear-stack.

Dread Necromancer: 2, 3, 1

I think with some decent optimisation, DN could be pushed to T1. I'm not familiar enough with optimising the class to definitively state that, but from my vantage point, they're essentially a Cleric with fewer "I win" buttons, but they do have at least one, and possibly 3 or 4. Is 3-4 win buttons enough for T1? Maybe not, and maybe they're not all possible on the same build. But I am confident enough to say that they can definitely break the game in at least one dimension, consistently. I'll admit that a less-experienced player that doesn't utilise their available options will probably end up in T3, but that's true of all classes.

I'd also like to apologise to everyone participating in all the great discussion/ arguments in the thread -- I've been reading all the arguments, and they have certainly helped me to better understand the capabilities of some classes; I regret that I wasn't able to put in a vote for Beguiler at T2. I'll try to pay better attention to the schedule so that I can post near the end of the week once I've taken in all the discussion for future classes. I still probably won't vote for anything I haven't spent a decent amount of time building/ optimising myself, though.

@Jormengand: You mention in the OP that "any variants may be considered separately", after all the primary classes are complete. Do you have a list of those variants somewhere? I'd like to make sure that the Religious Adept (ECS 256), Urban Adept (S:CoT 167), Religious Urban Adept (S:CoT 167), Alternate Clerics (Drag311), Alternate Druids (Drag311), Cloistered Cleric (UA 50), Divine Bard (UA 50), and Spontaneous Cleric (UA 64) aren't overlooked.

[Troacctid]

@Jormengand: You mention in the OP that "any variants may be considered separately", after all the primary classes are complete. Do you have a list of those variants somewhere? I'd like to make sure that the Religious Adept (ECS 256), Urban Adept (S:CoT 167), Religious Urban Adept (S:CoT 167), Alternate Clerics (Drag311), Alternate Druids (Drag311), Cloistered Cleric (UA 50), Divine Bard (UA 50), and Spontaneous Cleric (UA 64) aren't overlooked.

Variants from books
Variants from Dragon Magazine

Most variants don't affect a class's tiering.

[stanprollyright]

Jormengand: If DN ends up in T2 because of this discussion I'd like to appeal the Beguiler decision and re-vote in light of new judging criteria. That just doesn't seem right to me.

Changing my vote for Dread Necromancer to 2,3,4

[GilesTheCleric]

Variants from books
Variants from Dragon Magazine

Most variants don't affect a class's tiering.

Those are some good resources. Yes, most don't.

[Hurnn]

The fixed list casters are simply not as good as a sorcerer. Dread Necromancer is cool and has some good spells but if you compare their 5 9th spells to the possible list a sorcerer can pick for their 3 it is no contest who comes out better. Same thing with Beguiler. It doesn't matter that they know more spells than the sorcerer, if the sorcerer knows the 3-5 (or more) best spells of every level. If either of these is really tier 2, and I don't think they are its the very bottom of tier 2.

[Lans]

As for my votes.



Divine Mind: 65, Terrible class is terrible. If Samurai is rated at tier 6 than Divine Mind is as well. I would literally rather play a Aristocrat with it's +2 skill points and a decent skill list.

Dragon Shaman: 5, It's auras really don't do enough to justify any higher than 5. When your main class feature can be replaced by a feat you know you're not knocking anything out of the park.
.

What is your justification for Divine Mind being the same tier as Samurai and lower than the Dragon Shaman? If you read my comparison between divine mind and the barbarian, the comparison with the samurai is even worse. It basically gets an initiative boost, which 2 levels later the divine mind gets and gives to his allies.

Compared to the dragon shaman the divine mind gets additional auras at 10th, and 20th, his attack boost aura is better, affecting attack rolls and ranged weapons. Comparable healing power, or blasting is obtainable.

The fixed list casters are simply not as good as a sorcerer. Dread Necromancer is cool and has some good spells but if you compare their 5 9th spells to the possible list a sorcerer can pick for their 3 it is no contest who comes out better. Same thing with Beguiler. It doesn't matter that they know more spells than the sorcerer, if the sorcerer knows the 3-5 (or more) best spells of every level. If either of these is really tier 2, and I don't think they are its the very bottom of tier 2.

The issue is more on the earlier levels, at 1st for example. What spells can a sorcerer take that can compare to all of what a beguiler gets at 1st. My best guess would be power word pain, launch bolt, and maybe grease.



Crusader Going to hold off on this till I can take a closer look. I think its lower amount of manuevers known with his recovery method might make it a high tier 4.
Death Master 2,3,1 Has a lot of powerful spells, but his spell list doesn't seem to have the number of game breaking options that the wizard list has.

Divine Mind 543 I think i've argued my point on how this compares to barbarian. It falls just short enough to not be in tier 4 with out ACFs


Dragon Shaman (PH2) 5,4,6 Doesn't do much, but I imagine it can do a little in most situations.


Dragonfire Adept (DrM) 3,4 does a lot more and has invocations that cover versatility,
Dread Necromancer (HoH) 3,2 good power of spells, and minionmancy. I can't envision the undead not filling the role of the tier 4 beat stick and trap springers, then spells on top of that make this an easy tier 3, the power of those spells make tier 2 a better second guess than tier 4.

[Troacctid]

The fixed list casters are simply not as good as a sorcerer. Dread Necromancer is cool and has some good spells but if you compare their 5 9th spells to the possible list a sorcerer can pick for their 3 it is no contest who comes out better. Same thing with Beguiler. It doesn't matter that they know more spells than the sorcerer, if the sorcerer knows the 3-5 (or more) best spells of every level. If either of these is really tier 2, and I don't think they are its the very bottom of tier 2.

But they're still getting like 3 of the top 5 core spells of each level, plus more. (Maybe the Dread Necromancer gets a little fewer than that.) I don't think the power differential is as high as you're making it out to be, if there's even a differential in the Sorcerer's favor at all.

Even then, how about the Favored Soul? The Cleric spell list is missing many of the best game-breaker spells from the Sor/Wiz list. Is it still T2? Are you going to vote Favored Soul down to T3?

What is your justification for Divine Mind being the same tier as Samurai and lower than the Dragon Shaman? If you read my comparison between divine mind and the barbarian, the comparison with the samurai is even worse. It basically gets an initiative boost, which 2 levels later the divine mind gets and gives to his allies.

Compared to the dragon shaman the divine mind gets additional auras at 10th, and 20th, his attack boost aura is better, affecting attack rolls and ranged weapons. Comparable healing power, or blasting is obtainable.

Despite the floccinaucinihilipilification I've been heaping on it, I do think Divine Mind is better than Dragon Shaman. It has better scaling, which is actually kind of ironic.

[eggynack]

The fixed list casters are simply not as good as a sorcerer.

If you want to claim that, then again, I ask, tell me the first level where you can pick spells known whose power exceeds that of the beguiler and/or dread necromancer's list at that level, and, further, tell me what that spells known list looks like. Also, specifically in the case of the dread necromancer, I suspect that it's somewhat plausible at 6th and 7th, and stops being plausible for awhile after that, so if that's the level you pick, also name the first level that occurs after those at which it's possible.

Dread Necromancer is cool and has some good spells but if you compare their 5 9th spells to the possible list a sorcerer can pick for their 3 it is no contest who comes out better. Same thing with Beguiler.

True in both cases. Nearly irrelevant in both cases. 9th level spells represent a small fraction of the overall power of a class, because they only come up in the last few levels. Also, in the case of the beguiler, it is possible to use the advanced learning at level 19 to pick up ice assassin, which is roughly equal in power level to any arbitrary collection of 9th's. Not saying it's better, because sorcerers can obviously get ice assassin too, but any super-9th (wish, shapechange, miracle, gate, ice assassin, and so on) can grant access to the power of every other super-9th. So, you're getting at most one level of supremacy here, followed by approximate equaling. If the beguiler wants, they can even get ice assassin right at 18th level by taking a couple of levels in some arbitrary prestige class. I don't think it precisely counts as breaking PrC use rules that might exist if the class in question is arbitrary aside from the need for CL advancement.

So, point in short, naming between one and three levels where the sorcerer is better isn't exactly impressive when I can point out about half of the levels where the inverse is true. Frequently, these classes get way more than five spells, frequently, the sorcerer gets fewer than three spells at the same time, and frequently, those spells are really frigging good.

It doesn't matter that they know more spells than the sorcerer, if the sorcerer knows the 3-5 (or more) best spells of every level. If either of these is really tier 2, and I don't think they are its the very bottom of tier 2.

More like one or two, first of all. As long as we're discussing the top level of available spells, the sorcerer is maxing out at two spells known until they hit 9th's. Second, as I think you'll find if you make an attempt at answering my question, the spells these classes get are great. Not best, typically, but good enough to really add up to something when combined.

I'll give you an example, which'll give some insight into how these low to mid level comparisons play out. Consider 8th level. Arguably, the best spell at this level is polymorph. And polymorph is really great. Does all kindsa things, and its versatility means it plays well with the sorcerer's spells known limitation. But, as good as polymorph is, would you rather have it than greater invisibility, solid fog, and freedom of movement? These are great spells too, after all, full of the meat of utility. Maybe you'd prefer polymorph, but maybe not. It has its limits, after all. And that's only three of the beguiler's eleven spells at that level. Add on locate object, greater mirror image, and hell, the kinda mediocre phantom battle too, and consider the comparison again.

Now note that I haven't named a single mind-affecting spell, so often supposed to be the beguiler's only trick that will inevitably be met with immune enemies. The crippling overspecialization that is meant to lead to the class' doom. They have those spells too, of course. They have charm monster, confusion, and all the rest of these sometimes extremely potent spells. At this level, not necessarily at every level but at this one at least, they can probably out-magic the sorcerer without even touching those spells. It speaks to a significantly greater power, a varied and versatile one at that, than the sorcerer can pull off, whether the beguiler is running spell adding methods or not.

And, oh yeah, the beguiler can also add spells. Almost forgot. Frequently, just by picking the right feat, right item, or maybe right prestige class (haven't gotten much push-back on my assertion that these classes are incapable of capitalizing on the rare domain adding PrC that'll let in an arcane caster), the beguiler or dread necromancer can gain a spell at this spell level where the sorcerer can supposedly outdo those classes with only one spell chosen, and the spell chosen can be the exact spell the sorcerer picked. Not always, cause there are some limits to how well these classes can do this stuff, but enough to make me doubtful that a sorcerer could ever have the advantage.

So, I repeat, name the level, and name the spells. We can proceed from there.

[AvatarVecna]

I don't think anyone even touched on the DN's rebuke undead, which aside from DMM, can also be used for devotion feats, powering up your CL, or flat-out winning encounters against anyone who has a subtype or opposed alignment.

Most of these are good points, but I will point out that DN can't use their Rebuke Undead to power DMM (and neither can the Death Master, for that matter). Still, that means they'll at least be getting more use out of devotion feats, although it sucks that Death Devotion and Evil Devotion aren't all that good.

[GilesTheCleric]

Most of these are good points, but I will point out that DN can't use their Rebuke Undead to power DMM (and neither can the Death Master, for that matter). Still, that means they'll at least be getting more use out of devotion feats, although it sucks that Death Devotion and Evil Devotion aren't all that good.

It seems like it should work to me. What am I missing?

As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that you know.

[AvatarVecna]

It seems like it should work to me. What am I missing?

As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.

This is the version I've been going off of, which specifies that Divine Metamagic can only be used with Divine spells. Is this version errata, or something?

EDIT: Yep, just checked Complete Divine and its errata: the original book version doesn't specify divine spells, and you don't even have to know the metamagic feat you're applying it to, but the errata clarifies that you need to know the feat and that it only applies to divine spells.

EDIT 2: So I guess if you don't consider errata official, you can say it can apply to arcane, but that also means you don't need to take Extend Spell or Persistent Spell to use DMM Persist. Heck, I guess if we're going that route, you could take DMM Intensify at lvl 1.

[GilesTheCleric]

This is the version I've been going off of, which specifies that Divine Metamagic can only be used with Divine spells. Is this version errata, or something?

EDIT: Yep, just checked Complete Divine and its errata: the original book version doesn't specify divine spells, and you don't even have to know the metamagic feat you're applying it to, but the errata clarifies that you need to know the feat and that it only applies to divine spells.

EDIT 2: So I guess if you don't consider errata official, you can say it can apply to arcane, but that also means you don't need to take Extend Spell or Persistent Spell to use DMM Persist. Heck, I guess if we're going that route, you could take DMM Intensify at lvl 1.

I mean, errata is errata, so it's supposed to be RAW. Sorry, DN, I tried my best for you.

[AvatarVecna]

I mean, errata is errata, so it's supposed to be RAW. Sorry, DN, I tried my best for you.

In fairness, the DN isn't crap without DMM, it's still got other things it can use the rebuke undead for (and it's pretty nice even without RU). It's just doesn't have access to that particular Clericzilla combo.

[Cosi]

Prestige Domains and the Beguiler: The relevant section is Complete Divine, page 20. There is not a reference to Warmages, but there is one to "a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul". In this case she may "select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell". Since the Beguiler knows all spells on her list, she automatically knows these spells.

Perhaps one could argue that the spells are not actually added to the list, and as such cannot be learned by Dread Necromancers, but that makes prestige domains as a whole non-functional, because they are not added to other people's lists, and as such could not be cast by anyone.

It's also worth noting that the FAQ explicitly says that the Rainbow Servant capstone works with Warmage casting, and the capstone has the same "learn" wording as prestige domains.

This is the version I've been going off of, which specifies that Divine Metamagic can only be used with Divine spells. Is this version errata, or something?

Yes, it is.

The errata'd version differs from the original in two ways. It requires that you select a metamagic feat you have for Divine Metamagic, and it only allows you to use the feat for divine spells.

[Jormengand]

How most games behave went out the window when we decided not to evaluate feats, items, ACFs, or PrCs. It then fell to a painful death when we let the Ardent use Linked Power psychic reformation and let the Archivist buy divine scrolls of all spells.

Uhm, take feats and items if you want. I'm almost certainly going to need them when we get near "T" on the list. ACFs are essentially not the same class - if you think the paladin of slaughter is a different tier from the normal paladin, you're free to raise it as another thing to vote on. And archivists don't even need scrolls of all spells, and ardents don't even need linked power shenanigans, so I don't even know what you're about there.

I just think that a trick that I've never seen used in multiple games of playing with dread necromancers (obviously I've seen people raise things other than just skeletons and zombies, but raising a higher-level caster than yourself to cover your own deficiencies should be something that obviously doesn't occur in most games) isn't massively relevant.

[Bucky]

Here's my conclusion based on the ongoing discussion.

Dread Necromancer: 21X3

Dread Necromancer Is Tier 1 If
they have unrestricted access to minion fodder, and can therefore prepare minions like a wizard prepares spells.

Dread Necromancer Is Tier 2 If
they are permitted to expand their spell list OR are allowed quality above-CR minions.

Dread Necromancer Is Tier 3 If
they use minionmancy on low quality minions to shore up the holes in their spell list.

The Dread Necromancer Might Be In Tier X Because
their ability to play uptier depends on campaign details like corpse availability rather than the inherent power of the class.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Dread Necromancer Might Be In Tier X Because
their ability to play uptier depends on campaign details like corpse availability rather than the inherent power of the class.

I think the argument is that "corpses of scary enemies" is just about the single most reliable resource in all of D&D. To say nothing of Planar Binding, killing, and reanimating the minions of your choice.

[Bucky]

Corpses of level-appropriate enemies aren't enough. For tier 2, I'm talking about corpses of things that could squish the DN in a fair fight. For tier 1, the DN needs to be able to obtain the corpse of a specific creature 4+ CR ahead of them on short notice, and do so using only a fraction of the party's daily resources.

In comparison, bringing an encounter worth of undead meatshields to the next encounter feels like T3 material.

[Doctor Despair]

Corpses of level-appropriate enemies aren't enough. For tier 2, I'm talking about corpses of things that could squish the DN in a fair fight. For tier 1, the DN needs to be able to obtain the corpse of a specific creature 4+ CR ahead of them on short notice, and do so using only a fraction of the party's daily resources.

In comparison, bringing an encounter worth of undead meatshields to the next encounter feels like T3 material.

I'd say it depends on the encounter. If the CR of the encounter is based on one tough creature, then that is much less "meat-shieldy" than if the encounter had 5 weaker enemies. Also of note are the various feats to improve the undead the DN revives

[Karl Aegis]

Prestige Domains and the Beguiler: The relevant section is Complete Divine, page 20. There is not a reference to Warmages, but there is one to "a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul". In this case she may "select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell". Since the Beguiler knows all spells on her list, she automatically knows these spells.

Perhaps one could argue that the spells are not actually added to the list, and as such cannot be learned by Dread Necromancers, but that makes prestige domains as a whole non-functional, because they are not added to other people's lists, and as such could not be cast by anyone.

Beguiler never gets an opportunity to choose a new spell known so they never get to choose a domain spell as a spell known. You contradicted yourself in your own argument.

Shrink Item by itself is better than the entire Beguiler 1st-5th level lists. You can use Magecraft + Aid Another from a familiar to make whatever items you want to shrink down. With a duration of six days when you can first get the spell to over two weeks with an Extend Shrink Item at level 8, you're converting downtime into power that you can give to whoever you want. You can even leave used items where they are after you're done with them to be retrieved later. Give everyone a few cones to block line of effect from whatever spells or traps may come your way. Lead-lined adamantine just seems useful for something (maybe hiding from a crystal ball for a while). Give certain cones and area to look out of and have like gloves built into the side so you can open doors without leaving yourself open to things requiring line of effect or contact poison. Sure, you might start facing inhaled poisons on every door and sunder-monkeys with adamantine weapons around every corner eventually, but facing more expensive obstacles means you get more expensive loot.

If you need to use your only 3rd level spell on every obstacle at 6th level, maybe you should have picked a more useful second level spell. You have all those extremely useful evocations that wizards usually ban to choose from.

[Bucky]

@ Doctor Despair
Granted, but you're still an order of magnitude less powerful than a Dread Necromancer with couple of mail order bosses as minions. And you lack T1 flexibility without the ability to reanimate things the DM doesn't themselves use.

[Cosi]

Beguiler never gets an opportunity to choose a new spell known so they never get to choose a domain spell as a spell known. You contradicted yourself in your own argument.

Rainbow Servant explicitly works, per FAQ, and Prestige Domains are very similar to that. Compare:

A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has.

If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell.

I mean, there's technically a difference (learn v choose), but "choose a new known spell" is the exact way Sorcerers learn new spells, so that seems like a pretty weak place to start.

Shrink Item by itself is better than the entire Beguiler 1st-5th level lists. You can use Magecraft + Aid Another from a familiar to make whatever items you want to shrink down. With a duration of six days when you can first get the spell to over two weeks with an Extend Shrink Item at level 8, you're converting downtime into power that you can give to whoever you want.

To be charitable, no. shrink item is good, but the Beguiler list has charm monster for minions and silent image for instant victory against most things you can't charm. That's two of the Beguiler's 30+ spells, without touching Arcane Disciple, Shadowcraft Mage, Runestaves, or Domain dips.

Also, shrink item can be yours for the low, low price of a Runestave, at which point the Sorcerer is back to crying. In actual play, you aren't comparing the best Sorcerer spell to the whole Beguiler list, because the Beguiler can grab the first four to six good Sorcerer spells trivially. You're comparing the fifth best Sorcerer spell to the whole Beguiler list, because that's the real trade-off. Remember, rational people think on the margin.

[Karl Aegis]

Rainbow Servant explicitly works, per FAQ, and Prestige Domains are very similar to that. Compare:





I mean, there's technically a difference (learn v choose), but "choose a new known spell" is the exact way Sorcerers learn new spells, so that seems like a pretty weak place to start.



To be charitable, no. shrink item is good, but the Beguiler list has charm monster for minions and silent image for instant victory against most things you can't charm. That's two of the Beguiler's 30+ spells, without touching Arcane Disciple, Shadowcraft Mage, Runestaves, or Domain dips.

Also, shrink item can be yours for the low, low price of a Runestave, at which point the Sorcerer is back to crying. In actual play, you aren't comparing the best Sorcerer spell to the whole Beguiler list, because the Beguiler can grab the first four to six good Sorcerer spells trivially. You're comparing the fifth best Sorcerer spell to the whole Beguiler list, because that's the real trade-off. Remember, rational people think on the margin.

What are you reading? Shrink Item is a third level spell, not fifth, and it's core. Where did charmed monsters risking their life on contact poison come from to beat Shrink Item? You aren't risking anything when using Shrink Item. You risk losing a charmed monster when using Charm Monster. There's a difference between the two.

How exactly is Charm Monster going to save you from a dozen Goblins on Worgs keeping their distance from you with short bows and javelins? Goblins on Worgs seems like an appropriate encounter for 3rd-4th level spells. It's not like everyone has a dozen shelters they can just throw down and walk into because a friendly sorcerer had spell slots they needed to use last week.

[Cosi]

What are you reading? Shrink Item is a third level spell, not fifth, and it's core.

Several whats:

1. Where did I say shrink item was 5th level?
2. charm monster and silent image are core spells.
3. You said, and I quote, "Shrink Item by itself is better than the entire Beguiler 1st-5th level lists." Which would seem to justify adding 5th level spells, unless you meant "the entire Beguiler list up to 5th level". In which case, that's kind of weird, because Beguilers only get Advanced Learning to expand their spell list at 5th level.
4. charm monster is a fourth level spell. silent image is a first level spell.

Where did charmed monsters risking their life on contact poison come from to beat Shrink Item? You aren't risking anything when using Shrink Item. You risk losing a charmed monster when using Charm Monster. There's a difference between the two.

Yes there is a difference. For example, charm monster gives you a bunch of minions that can, oh I don't know, kill things. Whereas contact poison can be defeated by wearing gloves rather than burning your only 3rd level spell known.

How exactly is Charm Monster going to save you from a dozen Goblins on Worgs keeping their distance from you with short bows and javelins? Goblins on Worgs seems like an appropriate encounter for 3rd-4th level spells. It's not like everyone has a dozen shelters they can just throw down and walk into because a friendly sorcerer had spell slots they needed to use last week.

I would imagine by pet Hill Giants might be useful here. Or maybe my pet Umber Hulk. Or my pet Air Elementals. Or my Runestaff of shrink item. Or the undead I made because I took Arcane Disciple (Death). Or wind wall from Arcane Disciple (Air). Or major image or silent image or solid fog for BFC. Or confusion or rainbow pattern. Or maybe I took a PrC or something. Seriously, the sky's the limit. Actually, the sky isn't the limit because I got fly from Arcane Disciple (Travel).