Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

[eggynack]

Druid: 1. Not sure there's too much point in talking a lot about this one, first because of the handbook, and second because they're just so firmly situated near the top of the tier list. I think someone implied before that druids (or maybe some other class, cause it was ambiguous) were of a lower tier during a particular level range, so we could argue about that or something. Interesting thing on that point is that, if such a range exists, it probably falls exactly from 13-14. Which is kinda weird. Might wanna research 7th's again at some point, actually.

One thing I wanna note here is that the class is still tier one without natural spell, predicated on the fact that most of your power was coming from casting anyway, so you don't have to take a particular build choice to get a tier one druid build. Realistically, the only way to drop below that tier is to make actively sub-optimal decisions. Go spontaneous, toss your class features away for bad ACF's, fill up on beastmaster or MoMF levels, do a bunch of things that make you less a druid. This is one of those weird cases where doing a bunch of interesting things is the way to low-op, as opposed to one of the best ways there being the path of least resistance (all them crappy core feats and such). Really weird situation to evaluate, though evaluating it isn't all that necessary owing to the class just kinda falling into tier one. Said a lot more than I planned to on this one, but such is the way of things.

Duskblade: 34: The stabby stabby is obviously pretty good. It's not tier three though. The real question of the duskblade is whether the casty casty is good enough to compensate. My answer is a really definite maybe. A problem here is that the melee is partially dependent on some particular spells, and the casting mechanic here means that you're going to be a bit low on variety. Looking at the list, it seems alright, I guess. One nice thing about them is that you're getting a significantly more interesting high end than most melee folk. Door and dispel and such. It's not nothing. This is one I'm iffy on.


Expert: 5. Skills are pretty good. Experts are good at them. There are cool things you can do with tricks, diplomancy, UMD, UPD, iajatsu focus, scouting/hiding, lucid dreaming (which I don't think I've ever actually looked at, but it sounds good), even something more low key like knowledges. It's all there for the expert.

Expert (UA): 54. So, this is basically a feat rogue, right? A feat rogue with fewer feats, none of the rogue's cool abilities, and none of the cool support the rogue gets by dint of being a core class. Sure, the feats you can choose are better than the fighter feats you get, but they're not that much better given your lack of class features (especially because you're probably going to take a bunch of fighter feats anyway, and you can pop the interesting feats you want into the standard slots). The generic feats aren't exactly all that exciting either. Skills too are technically a bit of a toss up, but the advantage seems to go to the rogue.

So, how good is a worse feat rogue? My thinking is five, but I could plausibly go to four.

Factotum: 3. Spells are really good. Even when you cast them like crap, they're really good. You get it a bit slow, and you get it with terrible uses/day, but you're accessing the wizard/sorcerer list here. All those things a wizard does to gather power on off-time, you can do those things too. You can raise a zombie army three levels after a wizard, and teleport your entire party across the globe four levels late, both essentially as well as a wizard can. That matters a lot. The limited castings are a huge drag in-combat, but there's still really cool stuff you can do. This isn't like with the adept where you spend your (even more limited) castings and then you're basically a commoner. You have other abilities, and just happen to have access to the ability to shut down combat, or fly, or alter your form, or tactically teleport. I think this is a lot of why the factotum deserves tier three, and I think it's under-emphasized.

But, again, that's not nearly all the factotum gets. The biggest draw has always been that ability to use skills. You're like an expert, except with reasonable skill boosters both carrying you over the top, and allowing low investment skills to do serious work. Extra actions are always good, and the factotum gets them in a pretty good form. Skills, again, are pretty good. You get a ton of other useful class abilities too. Really high initiative, turn undead, the always weird cunning brilliance, a bunch of pretty mundane but useful applications of inspiration, there's a lot to love.

A core question of the class has always been whether and how we should count font of inspiration. In my opinion, it shouldn't be considered at a 100% level, but it should be factored in somewhat. It's an excellent feat, letting you go from a few tricks each encounter to a a big pile. People tend to think that the class' old positioning is all down to JaronK weirdly including this one semi-obscure feat, but I think it deserves the spot even when the feat is minimally considered. You get so much out of combat stuff, and you can be pretty good in combat on top of that. Not great, but if factotums were great at everything always they'd be tier one.

Favored Soul: 2. Worse list than a sorcerer, somewhat compensated for by picking more spells off it. Probably a worse class, but it seems better than stuff from lower tiers. It'd still be nice to see a good list for this one, because I've never been all that knowledgeable about cleric stuff, but whatever said list looks like it's probably good enough. Also, pretty important reason to put the favored soul here is that there could wind up nothing left in the tier otherwise. Dunno which way dread necromancer will go yet, cause I'm too lazy to check, but if it winds up three, and psion gets pushed to one (in large part because Tippy's made solid arguments for it over the years), and people don't go my tier two way on spirit shaman, then we wind up with a tier with a single member. Which is amusing, but super weird.

[GilesTheCleric]

What are the broken cleric spells? Like on par with shrink item, explosive runes, alterself?

There's a whole bunch. Here's a sample of some low level ones; everyone knows the higher-level ones.

Spoiler

Show

0
Resize (Shrink Item)
No Light

1
Ice Slick
Spell Flower
Painless Death

2
Augury
Benediction
Close Wounds
Desecrate
Divine Insight
Local Tremor
Portal Well
Rigor Mortis
Share Talents
Turn Anathema
Substitute Domain
Summon Elysian Thrush

[noce]

Druid: 1
One of the best spellcasters.
He's the best melee classs thanks to wildshape and druid-only buffs.
Doesn't even have to choose between melee and magic, thanks to physical stats becoming worthless in wildshape, coupled with natural spell.

On top of that, animal companion can be stronger than the fellow barbarian.


Duskblade: 3
This class has a lot of spell slots, that can be used to fuel feats like Arcane Strike.
Knowledges are class skills and casting is INT-based, so he can put Knowledge Devotion to good use.
On top of that, one of the few full-bab gishes. Theese three perks let the Duskblade deal a lot of damage with Power Attack.

His spell list is decent, with more than a couple gems.
Out of combat he's restricted to the knowledgeable role, since spells known are few and skill points almost entirely go to knowledges (in most of the builds).

Has a built-in Quick cast that can be very handy and versatile, even granting you pseudo-pounce coupled with Dimension Hop.
All in all, in my opinion Duskblade is the best gish in a can, earning high end T3.


Expert: 6
d6, 6+int, medium bab and good will.
Light armor, simple weapons, 10 skills as class skills.

This class has no class features. Although skills can be good and picking them is handy, it's not enough to be a playing character.

For example, Diplomacy is one of the most abusable skills, ending fights is easy as hell. Samurai has Diplomacy, but it's widely regarded as one of the crappiest classes.
I know, experts are not limited to Diplomacy, but class skills are not as strong as class features.
Many skills can be made class skills with feats (even UMD).


Expert (UA): 5,6
As above, but this class also gets craft, profession and twelve other class skills instead of ten.
Also, proficient in one martial weapon and two good saves (your choice).
The class feature of this class is seven bonus feats.

Well, it's the same class with bonus feats and an additional good save.
Feats are strong. You could grab Tome of Battle feats all the time and be a semi-competent melee toon.
You could grab teamwork feats and be of (little) help in most fights.
Or you could use those feats for improved toughness, superior unarmed strike, etc to become monkish.
Or to qualify for prestige classes early.

All in all, bonus feats give you build versatility and (limited) build power.
I think 7 feats and another good save are enough to go from T6 to T5.


Factotum: 3,4
I've seen a couple factotums in my experience. Both were worse than what I'd say looking at the class.
I see factotum as a master of none, rather than a jack of all trades (I said the same thing for Bard).

Factotum can be of great use out of combat, but his class features were not enough to really help in combat.
The fact that he can prepare new spells each day give the class enough versatility to fit in low T3, if you know in advance which spells you will need.


Favoured Soul: 2,3
Split WIS/CHA spellcasting stat, this is really bad.
Compared to cleric, no heavy armor, three good saves, a couple melee feats and energy resistance, I'd say decent.

You know few spells, and can spam them. Not knowing spells affects out of combat utility mainly, but if you need to speak with dead you can just buy a scroll.
No turn undead, but you can pick it in prestige classes.

If it weren't for WIS/CHA split, I'd say clearly T2.
Given that and few spells known, you can build a crap toon if you don't have a clear idea of what you want to be able to do.
Thus, low T2, easily drops to T3 if unexperienced.

[noce]

Look, the beguiler didn't get into the tier you wanted it to. Therefore boo hoo the way this is set up is unfair, fine, whatever you say. The beguiler is no longer the point. Please follow thread procedure.

This is just rude.

I read all the discussion again.
Beguiler got 12 twos and 17 threes in the week voting the class, hence T3.

In the following week, many changed their mind and someone added to the discussion, now there are 17 twos and 14 threes.

If the aim of this thread is to give classes a tier based on community judgement, could we please vote again on beguiler?
The community changed her mind and T3 doesn't seem to be expression of popular will anymore.

[D.M.Hentchel]

Druid: 1
See Eggynack's ridiculously comprehensive druid handbook if you need help understanding.

Duskblade: 34
Does one thing and does it well, but ultimately can't contribute much other than: kill things. Sits nicely alongside the Bbn as high tier 4 with a handful of utility spells.
Edit: Duskblade has as much out of combat usage as the Crusader, which is tier 3 (apparently)

Expert (npc): 5
Diplomacy + Lucid Dreaming is strong. Arguably stronger than hitting things. Not to mention Iaijutsu Focus, Knowledge (religion), and Bluff. Nothing special but there is power here. Note that the Expert suffers greatly in low OP games.

Expert (generic): 45
People have already noted the similairities between the Expert and the Expert (amazing how we all made that mental leap). Personally I think that bonus feats gives the Expert the capacity to be effective at diplomacy.

Factotum: 3
I have never been disappointed by this class. It has exciting and veristile class features, a unique form of 3/4ths spell casting and every class skill to boot.

Favored Soul: 32
I was going to say tier 3 however Giles convinced me otherwise. The powerful spells are there, however I think in Low OP this class really suffers.
Edit: despite the previous argument the Favored Soul comes out alongside Beguiler, which makes it Tier 3 (apparently)

[Cosi]

Spell Flower

This spell doesn't do anything on it's own. It's a powerful low level spell, sure, but it is not very powerful at low levels.

Painless Death

You know this says "willing creature", right? What am I not seeing here?

Augury
Benediction
Close Wounds
Desecrate
Divine Insight

These are not bad spells (though, to be clear, nowhere near the level of glitterdust, cloud of bewilderment, or web), but part of the problem with Favored Souls is that they don't have the ability to pick up non-combat or passive spells like these to the degree that Clerics can. The fact that you're stuck always having desecrate (and presumably animate dead) competing with your combat options, instead of only during downtime, is a huge cost for Favored Souls.

Portal Well

Another spell that is quite useful, but which you will likely not use at the levels you get it. How many portals do you encounter at 3rd level?

Turn Anathema
Substitute Domain

The Favored Soul doesn't get domains or turning. This makes spells that modify their domains and turning less valuable than they might be for Clerics.

[Nifft]

Druid - 1

Duskblade (PH2) - 43

Expert (npc) - 6

Expert (UA) - 4 - I think this class could be built to match a core Rogue, but with more flexibility.

Factotum (Dgs) - 4 - That kid with "so much potential" who ended up living at home.

Favoured Soul (CDv) - 2 - It's a Sorcerer who cherry-picks the good stuff off a different list.

[Mehangel]

Druid Tier 1
Duskblade 3,4
Expert 5,4
Expert (UA) 4,5
Factotum 3
Favoured Soul 2,3

[AnachroNinja]

Druid Tier 1
Duskblade 43
Expert 54
Expert (UA) 54
Factotum 43
Favoured Soul 2,3

[Karl Aegis]

This is just rude.

I read all the discussion again.
Beguiler got 12 twos and 17 threes in the week voting the class, hence T3.

In the following week, many changed their mind and someone added to the discussion, now there are 17 twos and 14 threes.

If the aim of this thread is to give classes a tier based on community judgement, could we please vote again on beguiler?
The community changed her mind and T3 doesn't seem to be expression of popular will anymore.

At this point I'd like to propose that Monk should be discussed separately from Monk with cross-class Use Magic Device partially charged wands which should be discussed separately from Monk with access to all splatbooks, including Dragon Magazine and Web Enhancements. If consensus determines all three are the same tier, then the option exists to collapse all three into a single tier.

Hopefully beguiler discussion is over by the time this proposal is approved or denied. There is time to think about it before Monks are actually up for voting.

[Cosi]

At this point I'd like to propose that Monk should be discussed separately from Monk with cross-class Use Magic Device partially charged wands which should be discussed separately from Monk with access to all splatbooks, including Dragon Magazine and Web Enhancements. If consensus determines all three are the same tier, then the option exists to collapse all three into a single tier.

Hopefully beguiler discussion is over by the time this proposal is approved or denied. There is time to think about it before Monks are actually up for voting.

This thread has been busy, so I might have missed it, but did you ever reply to people's arguments about how the Beguiler beats a bunch of goblins at 8th level?

[Nifft]

This thread has been busy, so I might have missed it, but did you ever reply to people's arguments about how the Beguiler beats a bunch of goblins at 8th level?

Not him, but it seems pretty straightforward, even in the face of various hypothetical objections:

1/ Invisibility + sneak around them.

"No, you have to kill the goblins or they'll slay the villagers!"

Okay.

2/ Crushing Despair + Slow on the goblins, then Haste the villagers & let the villagers (or their housecats) do most of the killing. Classical God Wizard style.

"No, you have to kill the goblins yourself using magic!"

Okay.

3/ Mage Armor and Spider Climb on me. Crushing Despair and Slow on the goblins. Then I waste them with my crossbow.

"No, you have to kill them directly with magic!"

Okay.

4/ Use Magic Device + Wand of Fireball.

[Cosi]

Not him, but it seems pretty straightforward, even in the face of various hypothetical objections:

1/ Invisibility + sneak around them.

"No, you have to kill the goblins or they'll slay the villagers!"

Okay.

2/ Crushing Despair + Slow on the goblins, then Haste the villagers & let the villagers (or their housecats) do most of the killing. Classical God Wizard style.

"No, you have to kill the goblins yourself using magic!"

Okay.

3/ Mage Armor and Spider Climb on me. Crushing Despair and Slow on the goblins. Then I waste them with my crossbow.

"No, you have to kill them directly with magic!"

Okay.

4/ Use Magic Device + Wand of Fireball.

Oh, absolutely. But this guy said that shrink item was better than the entire Beguiler spell list, because it would let you avoid contact poison or defeat groups of goblins. When people proposed about half a dozen ways to be a group of goblins, he sort of slunk off.

[Troacctid]

Sooo Expert. You have no combat ability whatsoever. No proficiencies, no stats, no class features. Right away that's like 66% of the game where you have no meaningful way to contribute beyond plinking with a crossbow.

What do you have that an Aristocrat doesn't have? And are those things worth giving up all of your combat stats for? Well, you've got stealth, which you don't have any class features to support. You've got UMD, which you don't have any class features to support. You've got Iaijutsu, which even if you could use it reliably would only make up for your lack of proficiencies. Aaand we already ran out of skill points two skills ago. Diplomacy, Bluff, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, and Handle Animal are all Aristocrat class skills too.

I don't think giving up all your combat abilities for stealth and UMD can raise a character by a whole tier. Especially since the Aristocrat isn't exactly short on ways to spend her wealth. She can just buy something else. Remember, I'll reiterate this, those extra skills aren't free. It's not just "Oh, I have more skills and more options, so I'm better." You have to give up a lot of options in order to gain the new ones. An Expert does not actually fill more niches than an Aristocrat—just different ones. And frankly, combat is way too important to be dumping. I'd probably almost always rather be an Aristocrat and actually have some native fighting ability with AC and HP and damage and maybe energy resistance.

TL;DR Experts are roughly the same power level as Aristocrats and should be in the same tier.

[eggynack]

Expert (npc) - 6

Expert (UA) - 4 - I think this class could be built to match a core Rogue, but with more flexibility.

Factotum (Dgs) - 4 - That kid with "so much potential" who ended up living at home.

This trio of rankings strikes me as really weird. The crazy skill thing gets tier six. Taking that, and glomming on fewer feats than a fighter gets adds two full tiers. Replacing those feats with all kindsa useful class features and magic and such fails to move the needle at all. Only conclusion I've got is that you either have something amazing to do with these unbounded bonus feats, or you're significantly overvaluing them, and either way that's a discussion worthy thing.

Sooo Expert. You have no combat ability whatsoever. No proficiencies, no stats, no class features. Right away that's like 66% of the game where you have no meaningful way to contribute beyond plinking with a crossbow.

What do you have that an Aristocrat doesn't have? And are those things worth giving up all of your combat stats for? Well, you've got stealth, which you don't have any class features to support. You've got UMD, which you don't have any class features to support. You've got Iaijutsu, which even if you could use it reliably would only make up for your lack of proficiencies. Aaand we already ran out of skill points two skills ago. Diplomacy, Bluff, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, and Handle Animal are all Aristocrat class skills too.

You don't especially need class features to support UMD. It's good either way. I'm not really sure what you mean by iajatsu making up for a lack of proficiencies. The canonical use of the skill is with a gnomish quickrazor, an exotic weapon, so you're taking a feat to make serious use of it anyway, bypassing whatever the proficiency list looks like. And while the expert ran out of skill points two skills ago, the aristocrat ran out four skills ago, which is a meaningful thing. The expert is doing skills more and better, and I don't think the aristocrat gets overmuch to compensate for that.

I don't think giving up all your combat abilities for stealth and UMD can raise a character by a whole tier. Especially since the Aristocrat isn't exactly short on ways to spend her wealth. She can just buy something else. Remember, I'll reiterate this, those extra skills aren't free. It's not just "Oh, I have more skills and more options, so I'm better." You have to give up a lot of options in order to gain the new ones. An Expert does not actually fill more niches than an Aristocrat—just different ones. And frankly, combat is way too important to be dumping. I'd probably almost always rather be an Aristocrat and actually have some native fighting ability with AC and HP and damage and maybe energy resistance.

Given the iajatsu focus/quickrazor thing, identical BAB, and occasional UMD use, the expert is probably better in combat than an aristocrat is. If you assume those two skills get picked, and then the expert just matches the aristocrat skill for skill, then you wind up with that combat advantage, as well as the non-combat advantage from UMD, which means you're mostly just better. And the expert doesn't have to match the aristocrat skill for skill. You have other cool options on your list that the aristocrat lacks. Not a crazy number of them, but they're there.

[Karl Aegis]

i dunno, some class features are worse than good skills. Battle Dancer (Tier 5) comes to mind as a class with class features worse than skills; starring dump stat to AC. Seriously, only Perform on their skill list scales off charisma and they don't need perform to use.... -2 AC. That ability needs ranks in Tumble. You probably are better off using armor you aren't proficient with than putting points into Charisma for this class.

You probably could use something like Hand Crossbow Focus, Crossbow Sniper and Knowledge Devotion to make a decent crossbow Expert (Sage) with Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered if anyone wants to get close to you.

[Nifft]

This trio of rankings strikes me as really weird. The crazy skill thing gets tier six. Taking that, and glomming on fewer feats than a fighter gets adds two full tiers.

Here's what you're missing: the UA expert gets class features which can be exchanged for feats.

They don't just get crappy Fighter feats as a class feature.

They get real class features.

For example: at 1st level, a UA Expert can have +2d6 sneak attack.

the expert is probably better in combat than an expert is.

You have them the wrong way around.

[Karl Aegis]

Here's what you're missing: the UA expert gets class features which can be exchanged for feats.

They don't just get crappy Fighter feats as a class feature.

They get real class features.

For example: at 1st level, a UA Expert can have +2d6 sneak attack.



You have them the wrong way around.

So you've gone from dropping an enemy in one hit to killing them in one hit. Is that enough to justify a two tier gap?

[Nifft]

So you've gone from dropping an enemy in one hit to killing them in one hit. Is that enough to justify a two tier gap?

Being useful and effective at your chosen niche is roughly 2 tiers higher than being ineffective at your chosen niche, yes.

[Troacctid]

Given the iajatsu focus/quickrazor thing, identical BAB, and occasional UMD use, the expert is probably better in combat than an expert is.

Your only native way of catching them flat-footed is to win initiative. That's one Iaijutsu Focus roll per combat. And you still have a crappy hit die and no weapon. Meanwhile, as long as we're spending feats, the Aristocrat can just spend one to get UMD as a class skill—does that make it T5 too?

If you assume those two skills get picked, and then the expert just matches the aristocrat skill for skill, then you wind up with that combat advantage, as well as the non-combat advantage from UMD, which means you're mostly just better. And the expert doesn't have to match the aristocrat skill for skill. You have other cool options on your list that the aristocrat lacks. Not a crazy number of them, but they're there.

You don't actually have the combat advantage, because you're still worse in combat. You can only fill a single role: squishy pseudo-sneak attacker (except much more narrow and hard to trigger and IIRC melee only?). The Aristocrat can do a little melee with a greatsword, a little ranged with a longbow or heavy crossbow, and a little tanking with heavy armor and a bigger hit die. And the Aristocrat has all this as core class features, while the Expert has to delve into setting-specific 3.0 material just to sometimes be almost as good. (What if your game isn't set in Rokugan and you don't have access to OA? Now how are you contributing in combat?)

[javcs]

Druid - 1 - The average druid may not have quite as much raw spell power as a cleric or wizard, and while a druid might need to work a little harder or be optimized a little more to reach the peaks of druidly power, but it's hard to screw up a druid.

Duskblade - Low 3 or higher 4 - Can fight as well as pretty much anybody else. The limited spell list and limited spells known from that list are rather unfortunate, but there are a few good utility ones. Not much abillity to expand your spell list in a useable or practical way, though. It's at the bottom of 3 or the very top of 4. Probably not overly dissimilar in terms of where it ends up from the ToB classes.

Expert(NPC) - 5 - It's got one trick - any 10 skills it wants. It probably takes a higher degree of system mastery, or a wider search of splatbooks to find some of the strongest and more obscure skills, and skills generally aren't going to break anything unless the DM lets it happen. Admittedly, most skills aren't too difficult to replace with spells or magic items. On the up side, you can have UMD and UPD, and Iajitsu Focus. It's enough to get out of T6 and makes for a respectable T5, but no further up the tier list.

Expert(Generic) - 4 - Any 12 skills it wants, any two good saves, and bonus feats that can be traded for some class features. Unfortunately, the list of official class features you can choose is limited to features out of core, since UA was pretty early. Hopefully, a DM would allow an expansion of the class features list.

Factotum - 3 - All skills are class skills, get Int to nearly everything. Extremely limited casting, but you can swap out every day. Largely a 3 on the basis of being about as versatile as its possible to be without being a T1.

Favored Soul - 2 - Have to be careful with what spells you pick. Not too hard to screw up, but harder to screw up than a sorcerer because you have a better chassis and a few actual class features.




Iajitsu Focus and the Gnomish Quickrazor works because of the Gnomish Quickrazor letting you catch someone flat-footed repeatedly - on every attack you make, essentially.

[Troacctid]

Iajitsu Focus and the Gnomish Quickrazor works because of the Gnomish Quickrazor letting you catch someone flat-footed repeatedly - on every attack you make, essentially.

I'm looking at it right now in the book and it has no such function.

[javcs]

I'm looking at it right now in the book and it has no such function.

My bad, I misremembered some of the trick's details. There's an additional element involved - one that allows to you to treat someone as flat-footed if you draw and attack them in the same turn. Flick of the Wrist maybe? It's either a feat or a skill trick that lets you do so, if both don't exist as options. There's probably more than one way to treat someone as flat-footed if you draw and attack them in the same turn, so some will work better than others. I don't remember which one works best, though.

Quickrazor works with it because you draw-attack-sheathe for each attack roll.


And, being realistic, if you're going to use Iajitsu Focus as a primary combat method, you're going to be building and equipping around getting the conditions to Iajitsu Focus somebody. Many spells/powers are useful towards such an end, fortunately, you can have both UMD and UPD as class skills.


Admittedly, it's an imperfect trick, but it is merely one of the options available, in addition to any other strong skills/skill combos. You can Diplomancer, Iajitsu Focus, UMD, and UPD, along with a few other <insert obscure and powerful skill and/or skills with obscure and powerful applications> of your choice all on the same Expert(NPC).



And nobody's arguing that Expert(NPC) is any higher than T5 (because it isn't), but at that level classes are weak and incompetent enough that skills can figure heavily in their value. And Expert(NPC) has enough skills that it's better than T6.

Look at it this way - Expert(NPC) can serve a lot of builds as a skill dip, or gestalted alongside (ignoring, of course, other skillmonkey classes, and even then, a good will save doesn't hurt), but it's probably not going to represent a substantive change in how a character plays with or without it.

[Troacctid]

My bad, I misremembered some of the trick's details. There's an additional element involved - one that allows to you to treat someone as flat-footed if you draw and attack them in the same turn. Flick of the Wrist maybe? It's either a feat or a skill trick that lets you do so, if both don't exist as options. There's probably more than one way to treat someone as flat-footed if you draw and attack them in the same turn, so some will work better than others. I don't remember which one works best, though.

That's once per encounter.

And, being realistic, if you're going to use Iajitsu Focus as a primary combat method, you're going to be building and equipping around getting the conditions to Iajitsu Focus somebody. Many spells/powers are useful towards such an end, fortunately, you can have both UMD and UPD as class skills.

So in order for Expert to be T5, you have to have a single specific build that takes into account items, multiple feats, and setting-specific 3.0 material? Is that really a reasonable basis for a tier ranking? What if you don't use OA? Are we just assuming that most games are set in Rokugan?

I mean, hey, if we're getting that specific, we're going to need to move Sorcerer up to T1, since we can assume they're all going to take Wand Bonding and have more spells known than a Wizard. Beguiler too—they have UMD, so not only do they have more spells known than a Wizard, they can also take them off of any list.

[javcs]

So in order for Expert to be T5, you have to have a single specific build that takes into account items, multiple feats, and setting-specific 3.0 material? Is that really a reasonable basis for a tier ranking? What if you don't use OA? Are we just assuming that most games are set in Rokugan?

I mean, hey, if we're getting that specific, we're going to need to move Sorcerer up to T1, since we can assume they're all going to take Wand Bonding and have more spells known than a Wizard. Beguiler too—they have UMD, so not only do they have more spells known than a Wizard, they can also take them off of any list.

Not at all. Iajitsu Focus is merely one of the things they can do. Iajitsu Focus, on its own, probably wouldn't be worthy of T5.

They're T5 because they can get any skill as a class skill, and some skills are rather useful, while some have more powerful applications, although such are usually more obscure. No one skill by itself is worth full Tier (probably), but Expert(NPC) can get any 10 skills, and the ability to get any combination of a few powerful skills/skill combos is enough for T5, IMO.

One would probably never play one as your primary class, barring a specific game-set up, but it's useful for dips. The Expert(NPC) is, essentially, to skills what the Fighter is to combat/combat feats.



Where's Wand Bonding from?

[Aimeryan]

For what it is worth, I'm in agreement with Troacctid on this; you can't use one really well-optimised build to move a class up a tier without being able to do the same for all classes. There is value in that (look at optimisation level tiering lists), but JaronK's tier system (which this thread uses) presumes only average optimisation.

That said, I'm not saying Expert is Tier 5 or Tier 6; there may be other reasons why it is one or the other that is not so tied up in being highly optimised.

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On the topic of Duskblade, we seem be to stuck in the same rut as the Crusader and Psychic Warrior discussion; does being able to do different things in combat make it Tier 3 worthy (along with the "one thing quite well" premise that Tier 4 has)? Does having little to nothing to do outside of combat not matter for consideration of being Tier 3? Is this just a problem that Tier 4 feels wrong because they are more useful than Barbarian, but that they are not anywhere near as useful as Bards and so don't fit Tier 3, either? Is the only right answer Tier 3.5?

Myself, I feel they don't manage to fit thematically in Tier 3, which as I see it is defined by almost always having something they can do to contribute. That they are more useful than some in Tier 4 (arguable, when you included WBL to pick up the same tricks just in a different manner), just makes them high Tier 4 as I see it.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'd like to point out a few overlooked skills. I don't think they change the tiering for these skill-based classes, but they're worth acknowledging.

Profession: Executioner (BoVD) lets you have a flat DC 18 to succeed on your CdG attempt (using an Executioner's Sword). Combined with Death Blow (CAd), you can be a valuable finisher in combat without any other combat ability necessary.

Profession: Siege Engineer (HoB) with an eg trebuchet allows you to target a square, using your int mod for your to-hit, and you only need to hit a flat AC 15. Trebuchets deal 5d6-14d6 of damage (with several rounds to prepare to fire), and are pretty impractical in a lot of situations. But they can be used without a whole lot of skill in combat.

Knowledge: Warcraft (Dark Sun 3) lets you buff your allies' AC or to-hit, and it runs off cha, which you probably had pumped for diplomacy anyway. The bonus is equal to your cha mod; the DC is 15+number of allies affected, so low and fixed.

Warcraft (Birthright Campaign Setting) lets you pick where you end up engaging with your foes. It's meant for mass battles (both strategy and tactics), but if your GM will let you use it against foes that are chasing you, it's a neat way to get some free terrain bonuses. Runs off int, so you're golden.

[Nifft]

I'd like to point out a few overlooked skills. I don't think they change the tiering for these skill-based classes, but they're worth acknowledging.

Profession: Executioner (BoVD) ...

Profession: Siege Engineer (HoB) ...

Nearly every class has access to Profession skills, so this isn't an advantage for a pick-your-own-skills class.

It can't change one class's tier when all classes have it.

Knowledge: Warcraft (Dark Sun 3) ...

There are several ways to have access to an arbitrary Knowledge skill, and a lot of characters have Knowledge (all) on their class skill list, so this isn't much of an advantage either.

Warcraft (Birthright Campaign Setting) ...

This one seems legit, and has a valid case for being generally useful in real games. However, it is setting-specific and the setting is uncommon.

[noce]

On the topic of Duskblade [...] Does having little to nothing to do outside of combat not matter for consideration of being Tier 3?

Do not underestimate knowledge skills. Duskblade are int based, so they can pretty well have all knowledge skills.
I even consider the knowledgeable man a more important role than the party face: you can always try to speak yourself out of a situation with roleplaying, but you cannot know what you don't know.

I played as the "I know this" man once, when I was divided from the party they missed my role a lot.

[Aimeryan]

Do not underestimate knowledge skills. Duskblade are int based, so they can pretty well have all knowledge skills.
I even consider the knowledgeable man a more important role than the party face: you can always try to speak yourself out of a situation with roleplaying, but you cannot know what you don't know.

I played as the "I know this" man once, when I was divided from the party they missed my role a lot.

I'm not familiar with Duskblade; just reading the reasons people have given with their votes. They may be quite useful a lot of the time outside of combat for all I know. Wouldn't change the generality of what I was saying, but it would mean it didn't apply to Duskblade in that case.