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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    So this is it, huh. Thread isn't halfway done and it's stalled out. Too hung up on one class to get anything productive done. Might as well give up on making a tier list at all.
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  2. - Top - End - #572
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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    One more time: variants will be considered at the end, I will not reopen nominations for classes just because you think they've been mis-tiered no matter how much you protest, and this is not the thread to discuss classes which have already been tiered unless you're using that tier to inform later classes.
    Not only have they been mistiered, but, as I've pointed out, you are fundamentally part of the reason they've been mistiered. Where were you in what was supposed to be high level community discussion of the beguiler? You gave a vote on essentially no basis, and then utterly failed to defend your position (because you never really tried). You did marginally more for the dread necromancer, but you only ever responded on matters directly relating to their command of minions, never to my direct response to you that they could do a ton of other things, never to the many other posts on that topic. People, you included, who haven't actually done much talking about the classes, have had this outsized impact on the tier listing. I'm trying to change that, by, y'know, having those conversations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    - It's unreasonable to expect people, the vast majority of whom don't intend to change their votes, to re-vote every time the beguiler lobby is sad that the beguiler isn't T2, or any other class's lobby calls for a re-vote.

    - It's unreasonable to expect me to call said re-vote every time that happens.
    As has been pointed out, unless the count was mistaken, the number of people that've currently been convinced out of folks who originally voted is enough that you don't have to call a revote. The original vote, when altered based on the voter's current opinions, seems to support shifting the tier.
    - If I did call a re-vote every time someone was upset by the location of a class, I would be calling so many re-votes that we'd never actually reach the end of the list, let alone hear the case for the tens of variants being nominated.
    It's not about me being upset, or anyone else being upset. It's about your listing being wrong here by any reasonable metric. If I were the only person supporting the beguiler's retiering (and now that of the dread necromancer, though we're not yet at the point where that would be truly justified, because that post-vote discussion hasn't done much yet), or even if everyone who voted them tier two were clamoring for it, that'd mean nothing. It would tell us what we already know, that people who thought they were tier two still think that, and that they think that loudly. But, at this point, people who originally voted the class tier three, and new people who didn't vote originally (though they're arguably less important, as they less fully fit the thread parameters and aren't a strict swing), are saying they support this tiering, and as far as I can tell no one has done the opposite.

    That, I'd suspect, isn't going to happen too often. Hell, I started arguing hoping to change some minds on this, but I wasn't necessarily expecting to succeed. Most arguments fail to convince people on the opposing side, in my experience, but you try because of moments like this, where people are turned by the force of long-form discussion.


    - The actual tier of the beguiler isn't going to change. If you wanted to vote T2, you should have voted T2 when you had the opportunity rather than lobbying for special favours. Allowing people to push me around just by being rude at me or questioning my motives is actually less conducive to creating a tier list which the playground tends to agree on.
    I don't question your motives, and the vast majority of the support for beguilers has had nothing to do with you. What I do think is that there's a fundamental problem with what has been going on with this thread, and that you, to some extent, are part of that problem. But I've only mentioned that maybe three or four times, and I don't think anyone else has (which makes for a ridiculously small amount directed at you given this thread's length). Most of the support is coming from what it so rarely comes from. People having high level argument with a solid side and getting convinced. That is what we're doing.

    You say that pushing you around or questioning your motives isn't conducive to changing your mind. Well, that goes both ways. Acting like we're a bunch of whining crybabies who are seeking this with no valid claim beyond our own feelings on the matter is not especially conducive to getting us to stop arguing for it. It's all very condescending to a position you haven't even really considered.
    - I think that several classes are in the wrong tier, but I'm not complaining because this thread operates on the majority opinion, not the opinion of whoever shouts at me loudly enough.
    It currently operates on neither. After all, even if you constrain the question of what group you're taking the majority of to those who voted early, it would seem that the beguiler still wins out at this point. And, hey, if you think several classes are in the wrong tier, you don't need to complain. You just need to argue it. No one is stopping you besides yourself.
    - This is a relatively high-procedure thread, which is the only thing making it at all easy to follow. Breaking that procedure is just going to make it impossible to follow what's actually going on.
    Not really. I'm not saying you should keep constant close track of the entire thread and all of its numbers, but that, when a ton of new and old people are giving a vote counter to the current listed tier or changing their vote respectively, it might be worth reconsidering that number. For example, unless I'm mistaken, not much has changed in this way on the dread necromancer. So, don't consider altering that tier or holding a revote now. Consider it later, after I've convinced some folk that I'm right. If I can't do that, what's even the point of considering the tier a second time? It should be pretty visible when this happens. It was this time. And, I gotta say, one person who'd be well worth convincing on this point, if not the point of retiering on this thread itself, is you. After all, you still haven't responded to a single point of mine on either the beguiler or dread necromancer. Maybe you should join this discussion, instead of fighting against it. If not for the accuracy of this thread, then for the accuracy of your own opinions.
    For those in the proverbial back: this thread's procedure is not changing. If you don't like it, that's certainly your prerogative, but I don't intend to respond to any more complaints on the issue.
    For you, my position on this has not changed. If you don't like the continued discussion of these classes, that's certainly your prerogative, but as long as people are willing to discuss these classes, then I will discuss the classes with them. Because what I care about in this thread is accurate tiering, even if it doesn't fit a cleanly laid out procedure. That is what this thread should be seeking, if it isn't seeking that already.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    A lot of people are getting discouraged because the tier isn't "accurate".

    The point of this work isn't to really make it accurate to the real game (though that is a hoped for consequence). The idea more is to give an average forum consensus. If most people are wrong, then the average will be off. But it's still accurate to the consensus being measured.

    It's not useful to what you're hoping for. That doesn't mean it isn't useful at all.
    But the current tier isn't even reflective of that desire. The actual result has been that if you take this kind of sample of the playground, then while those people will support tier three with limited discussion within a week, further discussion will lead that average forum group's consensus to be tier two. What we have now isn't even apparently accurate to the consensus being measured.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    So this is it, huh. Thread isn't halfway done and it's stalled out. Too hung up on one class to get anything productive done. Might as well give up on making a tier list at all.
    That's a ridiculous claim. Apart from direct responses to Jormengand, and posts that exist in that general chain of conversation, it looks like just about every post since the new classes started getting discussed were about those new classes. I'd certainly like more dread necromancer talk, but it hasn't really been happening. We've been mostly talking about experts, with some duskblade mixed in, and a bit of the other non-druid classes too. We're never going to talk about every class equally. Wouldn't be much point to that.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2017-01-22 at 03:44 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #573
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    I think people are being too bullish on the Favored Soul.

    The great power of the Cleric is its breadth of spell access. You don't need restoration very often, but when you do need it, it's vital. Similarly, animate dead does virtually nothing in combat, but makes you quite powerful if you have the opportunity to create some minions. This is not something the Favored Soul can do, because it's forced to lock into a few Cleric spells, meaning it has to choose between utility spells like augury or restoration, downtime spells like animate dead or planar ally, and combat spells like divine power or spiritual weapon.

    I would like to see someone put together a Favored Soul list they believe is superior to the Dread Necromancer or Beguiler for general adventuring. I'm not convinced it can be done, and if it can't it seems strange to rank the Favored Soul higher.

    The Favored Soul also suffers from not getting Turning and Domains, which are a big part of the power of the Cleric and low and mid levels when their spell list is at its weakest. Replacements like "Deity's Weapon Focus" and "Energy Resistance" do not fill me with confidence.

  4. - Top - End - #574
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    Suggestion: Since the Beguiler & Dread Necromancer position is controversial at the 2-3 barrier, every spells known based caster should have an example selection made to compare against those 2 fixed list + advanced learning casters.

    If a class can make their list out preform those 2, then they are better than the 2-3 barrier.
    If a class cannot make their list out preform those 2, then they are worse than the 2-3 barrier.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2017-01-22 at 04:14 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #575
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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    I would like to see someone put together a Favored Soul list they believe is superior to the Dread Necromancer or Beguiler for general adventuring. I'm not convinced it can be done, and if it can't it seems strange to rank the Favored Soul higher.
    This is one of the problems I had when ranking dread necromancer. If I think a class is worse than one that's currently ranked tier three, should I give the tier that reflects that ranking, or the one that reflects where I think the class should go in an ideal system? I went with the latter, ultimately, but it's a weird situation, because following that path means advocating for a system whose order is wrong, which is a whole other type of wrongness to introduce. I would definitely like to see the list though. I think I could plausibly be convinced if the favored soul's "good spells known list" winds up pretty mediocre.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2017-01-22 at 04:18 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #576
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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    I think I could plausibly be convinced if the favored soul's "good spells known list" winds up pretty mediocre.
    I'll see about creating one of these. My hunch is that FS will end up not being as powerful, since the majority of the Cleric list is comprised of very powerful, but narrow, solutions to problems.

    Do you all want a list tilted towards a casting-type FS, or a melee-type FS?

    Edit: In the meantime, I do already have a WIP generic Cleric spell list whipped up, that the FS could probably use without too much trouble. Do note that that list is geared towards new players, not optimisers, and is skewed to include as many core spells as possible.
    Last edited by GilesTheCleric; 2017-01-22 at 05:05 PM.

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  7. - Top - End - #577
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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by GilesTheCleric View Post
    Do you all want a list tilted towards a casting-type FS, or a melee-type FS?
    Casting, personally. I think it tends to fit the tier better.

  8. - Top - End - #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    I would like to see someone put together a Favored Soul list they believe is superior to the Dread Necromancer or Beguiler for general adventuring. I'm not convinced it can be done, and if it can't it seems strange to rank the Favored Soul higher.
    I know there are some Initiate feats which can be used by Druids and other divine casters -- some of those can be used to benefit a Favored Soul. In particular, the Initiate of Obad-Hai (Dr.342, p.51) gives you spontaneous summon nature's ally at every spell level, and that in turn opens up some Druid-oriented feats. I'm sure there are others.

    Mother Cyst can grant an extra spell known per level. They're funky, but they're not weak.

    Level 1:
    - Lesser Vigor (covers healing for a while)
    - Ice Slick (BFC)

    Level 2:
    - cry

    Level 3:
    - Impede or Snowshoes (Snowshoes allows you or your allies to freely enter your Ice Slick; Impede is a single-target save-or-lose vs. ranged attacks)

    Level 4:
    - Divine Insight (5+level to any skill check; this is a utility spell which gives your party a whole new category of awesome)

    Level 5:
    - Wave of Grief + Ray of Hope (you are a GOD buffer and now you can both take and give bonuses)
    or
    - Cloud of Knives + Divine Favor (you are an Archer and now you have 3 ranged attacks per turn with bonuses)

    Level 6:
    - Shivering Touch or Haboob or Vile Lance or Girallon's Blessing or Dispel Magic (depending on your party, and the type of encounters you seem to be having at this level)

    ... so yeah, I see a lot of good stuff available, with synergy and utility that the Beguiler cannot achieve.

    The roles that can be covered are:
    - Skill enhancer (for any skilled party member)
    - BFC
    - Buffer
    - Healer
    - Direct Damage (melee or archery)
    - Single-Target Lockdown
    - Whatever you pick at 6th level may be another category of functionality
    - Minion-spam via Initiate of Obad-Hai at level 6

    I think that's more different roles than a Beguiler could cover, plus this character would have good synergy with a Beguiler.

  9. - Top - End - #579
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    I know there are some Initiate feats which can be used by Druids and other divine casters -- some of those can be used to benefit a Favored Soul. In particular, the Initiate of Obad-Hai (Dr.342, p.51) gives you spontaneous summon nature's ally at every spell level, and that in turn opens up some Druid-oriented feats. I'm sure there are others.
    It looks to me like most Initiate feats are limited to specific classes, and therefore inaccessible to Favored Souls. It's possible that there are some exceptions, but I'm skeptical. Also, Arcane Disciple is quite likely to be as good or better as an option in the Beguiler's hands.

    EDIT: The Dragon Magazine feats are open to all divine casters. But the Initiate of Obad-Hai only allows you to give up prepared spells for summon nature's ally, making it useless to spontaneous casters like the Favored Soul.

    Level 1:
    - Lesser Vigor (covers healing for a while)
    - Ice Slick (BFC)
    lesser vigor is good, but ice slick does not seem like a very compelling option to me. It's basically grease, and while grease is good, it's probably the worst 1st level BFC spell and certainly worse than sleep + silent image + color spray.

    Level 3:
    - Impede or Snowshoes (Snowshoes allows you or your allies to freely enter your Ice Slick; Impede is a single-target save-or-lose vs. ranged attacks)
    snowshoes seems like too much investment into a single spell to me, and impede looks like a worse charm person.

    Level 4:
    - Divine Insight (5+level to any skill check; this is a utility spell which gives your party a whole new category of awesome)
    What are you doing offensively at this point? The Beguiler just picked up glitterdust, and he has knock, silence, invisibility, spider climb, detect thoughts, and skills for utility.

    - Wave of Grief + Ray of Hope (you are a GOD buffer and now you can both take and give bonuses)
    A +2 is the equivalent of aid another or flanking. That's hardly god-tier buffing.

    - Cloud of Knives + Divine Favor (you are an Archer and now you have 3 ranged attacks per turn with bonuses)
    This seems worse than glitterdust.

    - Shivering Touch or Haboob or Vile Lance or Girallon's Blessing or Dispel Magic (depending on your party, and the type of encounters you seem to be having at this level)
    dispel magic is on the Beguiler's spell list. haboob is decent BFC, but not better than slow + major image + deep slumber. girallon's blessing seems comparable to haste (better with a single target, but worse with many, and the Beguiler has minionmancy). vile lance creates a +2 weapon with a rider that only matters against PCs and seems pretty useless. shivering touch is good, but very cheesy, and only an instant win against Dragons.

    I'm not very persuaded by that list, and it's digging pretty deep against a Beguiler using only the spells he natively gets. If our Beguiler decides to pick up Knowstones, Arcane Disciple, Eternal Wands, Prestige Domains, or Runestaves, I think things flip completely.
    Last edited by Cosi; 2017-01-22 at 06:12 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #580
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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    It looks to me like most Initiate feats are limited to specific classes, and therefore inaccessible to Favored Souls. It's possible that there are some exceptions, but I'm skeptical.
    Considering the fact that I named one explicitly you have zero room to be skeptical.

    Are you really able to discuss this in good faith?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    lesser vigor is good, but ice slick does not seem like a very compelling option to me. It's basically grease, and while grease is good, it's probably the worst 1st level BFC spell and certainly worse than sleep + silent image + color spray.
    Sleep is garbage after 1st level. Color Spray is point-blank only, and loses value after level 3 or so.

    Grease and Silent Image are both good in mid-to-low levels, and a larger-area Grease is good at all levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    snowshoes seems like too much investment into a single spell to me, and impede looks like a worse charm person.
    Snowshoes allows your BSF to fight inside your Ice Slick without balance checks.

    It's like Freedom of Movement + Solid Fog.

    Anyway, skipping the rest of the nit-picking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    I'm not very persuaded by that list, and it's digging pretty deep against a Beguiler using only the spells he natively gets. If our Beguiler decides to pick up Knowstones, Arcane Disciple, Eternal Wands, Prestige Domains, or Runestaves, I think things flip completely.
    At least one of those is explicitly illegal:
    Quote Originally Posted by MIC
    A runestaff allows its wielder to use her own arcane energy to generate magical effects. Typically, a runestaff has anywhere from two to five spells. By expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s class spell list.
    Prestige Domains are easier to gain for a Divine caster than an Arcane caster, so that's not a point against the Favored Soul.

    I'm not convinced that you understand the rules of the game sufficiently to have this discussion.

  11. - Top - End - #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Considering the fact that I named one explicitly you have zero room to be skeptical.
    A dragon magazine one, to be fair. I don't think other initiate feats work that way. So, this particular point would only apply when analyzing with distant sources included, which greatly reduces the value it'd likely have on tiering relative to some spell adding things. And the one you picked doesn't really let you do this SNA thing, it seems.

    Snowshoes allows your BSF to fight inside your Ice Slick without balance checks.
    It's also a strictly better longstrider, for whatever that's worth.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2017-01-22 at 06:32 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #582
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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    A dragon magazine one, to be fair. I don't think other initiate feats work that way.
    Many don't, that's true.

    The Dragon Magazine ones do, which is why I picked it.

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    And the one you picked doesn't really let you do this SNA thing, it seems.
    Can you explain that? It sure looks like it does.

    Whether or not you get the Initiate spells added to your spells known in addition to your class spell list is a different question, and I suspect you don't get them. But this is the Initiate feat power, not the bonus spells.

  13. - Top - End - #583
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Considering the fact that I named one explicitly you have zero room to be skeptical.
    I didn't remember the condition for initiate feats off the top of my head, it conflicted with the Favored Soul. When I went and checked you specific example, it turned out to be legal. But it ends up being moot anyway, because it doesn't work the way you want it to with summon nature's ally, because you have no prepared slots to sacrifice.

    Sleep is garbage after 1st level. Color Spray is point-blank only, and loses value after level 3 or so.
    sleep and color spray are decent for longer than you give credit, and are more effective when they do work.

    Grease and Silent Image are both good in mid-to-low levels, and a larger-area Grease is good at all levels.
    Unless you fight fliers. Or people with teleportation (e.g. basically all outsiders). Or people with ranged attacks. Or people with ranks in balance.

    Snowshoes allows your BSF to fight inside your Ice Slick without balance checks.
    You're still investing like a third of your spells in one BFC technique.

    At least one of those is explicitly illegal:
    I've been over this before. The Beguiler has Use Magic Device, and can use the Emulate a Class Feature function of that skill to emulating having the correct spell.

    Prestige Domains are easier to gain for a Divine caster than an Arcane caster, so that's not a point against the Favored Soul.
    Ultimately, it's not ease of access that matters, it's how you interact with Prestige Domains. Favored Souls just get more spells that they can potentially learn, which doesn't do a whole lot for a class that is bottlenecked at spells known. On the other hand, Beguilers just learn a bunch of new spells.

    I'm not convinced that you understand the rules of the game sufficiently to have this discussion.
    Which rules misunderstanding exactly? The one where I didn't memorize the text of a Dragon Magazine feat and assumed it was more likely you also forgot than that that feat worked differently from the bulk of initiate feats (by the way, this was corrected, and you also screwed up your presentation of the feat), or the one where you don't understand how Use Magic Device works?

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Can you explain that? It sure looks like it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon 342, Initiate of Obad-hai
    You can "lose" a previously prepared spell to spontaneously cast any summon nature's ally spell of the same level or lower, just as a druid, in addition to cure spells
    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Divine, Favored Soul
    A favored soul casts divine spells (the same type of spells available to clerics), which are drawn from the cleric spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric must.
    The Favored Soul does not prepare spells, and therefore cannot sacrifice prepared spells to spontaneously cast summon nature's ally, even with Initiate of Obad-hai.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    You're still investing like a third of your spells in one BFC technique.
    And a pretty cool movement buff. The spells are each reasonable on their own. I think you covered the SNA thing well enough that I don't particularly need to, meanwhile.

    Edit: Separately, @Nifft, if that's supposed to be the favored soul's full spells known on a by-level basis, I think you need more spells. A 4th level favored soul has seven spells known, for example.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2017-01-22 at 06:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    I didn't remember the condition for initiate feats off the top of my head, it conflicted with the Favored Soul. When I went and checked you specific example, it turned out to be legal. But it ends up being moot anyway, because it doesn't work the way you want it to with summon nature's ally, because you have no prepared slots to sacrifice.
    Ah, that's a good catch. Thanks.

    Still, my main point remains: there are Initiate spells which can be used by a Favored Soul.

    A Favored Soul can also use Mother Cyst to gain a bunch of spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    You're still investing like a third of your spells in one BFC technique.
    Ah, no, I'm not listing out the full number of spells known at each level.

    I'm listing spells which give specific functionality that IMHO matches or exceeds the capabilities of a Beguiler.

    Favored Souls get more spells known than what I listed.

    Am I required to spoon-feed you everything about a Favored Soul, or can you make an effort to do at least the minimum research yourself before trying to score a point like this going forward?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    or the one where you don't understand how Use Magic Device works?
    It's funny that this is what you choose to showcase your understanding.

    Please, show us exactly how you intend to use UMD to utilize a Runestaff -- which is not a spell-trigger item, nor a spell-completion item.

    If it turns out you're wrong, will you concede that Beguilers have worse spell-list expansion than Favored Souls?

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    Do you think favored souls are better than sorcerers? That'd be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Do you think favored souls are better than sorcerers? That'd be interesting.
    Me? Heck no.

    I think Favored Souls are comparable in tier to a Sorcerer, but are lower within that tier.

    Sorcerers have a better list and way more support, and stuff like Runestaves actually work for a Sorcerer -- so in spite of their lower spells-known, a Sorcerer is going to have more and better spell options.

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    Domains aren't hard to get. Favored Soul 4/Church Inquisitor 1, take Substitute Domain. Boom. (Or, if you're going to be a stickler, Dracolyte explicitly gives you domain slots).

    And just because you're not casting something like Animate Dead or Planar Ally every day, doesn't mean they're not worth taking.

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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    And just because you're not casting something like Animate Dead or Planar Ally every day, doesn't mean they're not worth taking.
    'S true. Warlocks can testify to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    And a pretty cool movement buff. The spells are each reasonable on their own. I think you covered the SNA thing well enough that I don't particularly need to, meanwhile.
    I don't think an hours/level 10ft bonus to a single target's move speed is worth picking as one of your three to six first level spells. What's the use-case for that? Is giving your beat-stick a 10ft movement buff worth giving up whatever the next best Cleric spell? I'm not convinced that's the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Still, my main point remains: there are Initiate spells which can be used by a Favored Soul.
    Yeah, and Arcane Disciple is a feat that exists. I'm not sure why you think this is something where the Favored Soul comes out ahead.

    A Favored Soul can also use Mother Cyst to gain a bunch of spells.
    As far as I can tell, so can the Beguiler. It looks like Mother Cyst just grants you the spells, regardless of what class you nominally are.

    Ah, no, I'm not listing out the full number of spells known at each level.
    One third of your first level spells.

    Am I required to spoon-feed you everything about a Favored Soul, or can you make an effort to do at least the minimum research yourself before trying to score a point like this going forward?
    You are required to prove your point, just as I am required to prove mine. I was not aware this was controversial.

    Please, show us exactly how you intend to use UMD to utilize a Runestaff -- which is not a spell-trigger item, nor a spell-completion item.
    Uh, what? I don't understand what point you think you're making. To activate a Runestaff, you just need to make the DC 21 check to emulate the 1st level Sorcerer class feature of "has shrink item on your spell list". Maybe also the DC 25 check to Activate Blindly. Is there some restriction that you can only UMD spell trigger or spell-completion items I'm missing? As far as I can tell, these are the only references to either in the SRD's section to UMD:

    Quote Originally Posted by UMD, Use a Scroll
    This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
    Quote Originally Posted by UMD, Use a Wand
    This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.
    Neither of those make any claim of exclusivity, and "Activate Blindly" would seem to cover the activation of Runestaves or other devices. In fact, one of the PHB examples of the use of the skill is the activation of an item that requires the use of Turn Undead attempts to function. Such an item would seem to obviously be neither a Spell Trigger or Spell Completion item.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Domains aren't hard to get. Favored Soul 4/Church Inquisitor 1, take Substitute Domain. Boom. (Or, if you're going to be a stickler, Dracolyte explicitly gives you domain slots).
    All a Favored Soul gets from Prestige Domains is the granted power. They have to learn the actual spells normally, which is not very impressive. Especially considering that many Domain Spells are actually on the Cleric list to begin with.

    And just because you're not casting something like Animate Dead or Planar Ally every day, doesn't mean they're not worth taking.
    The Favored Soul has a limited selection of spells. Burning those on non-combat spells leaves it looking pretty empty when it comes time to do things in combat. You can go that direction, but at that point the Beguiler's combination of "minions" and "combat spells" seems like it pulls ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    All a Favored Soul gets from Prestige Domains is the granted power. They have to learn the actual spells normally, which is not very impressive. Especially considering that many Domain Spells are actually on the Cleric list to begin with.
    Go Dracolyte, then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draconomicon
    If the prestige domain is the character's only domain, he gains the ability to cast a domain spell of each spell level to which he has access once per day, in addition to those spells he already casts
    The Favored Soul has a limited selection of spells. Burning those on non-combat spells leaves it looking pretty empty when it comes time to do things in combat. You can go that direction, but at that point the Beguiler's combination of "minions" and "combat spells" seems like it pulls ahead.
    Compare to the Sorcerer, though. The Favored Soul gets 2-3 more spells of each spell level known, which come in when you first get access to the spell level. The Favored Soul is low Tier 2 to be sure, but the only way to relegate it to T3 is to claim that the Cleric list doesn't have enough game-breaking spells, which I don't think is true.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
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    EDIT: More detail on my assessment of Dracolyte Domains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Go Dracolyte, then.
    Okay. But then you're stuck with a fairly bad base domain. Domination is a bunch of Beguiler spells, and Glory is a laundry list of anti-undead stuff (plus gate, but if we're counting PrCs Beguiler wins at 18th). substitute domain remedies that, but you're still behind the Beguiler who can do the same thing with an (eternal) wand and a better base domain. Plus, you spent two feats to get in. And you need some Knowledge (religion) ranks, which is a skill the Favored Soul famously does not get. Also, I recall that we are not supposed to be ranking PrCs.

    Compare to the Sorcerer, though. The Favored Soul gets 2-3 more spells of each spell level known, which come in when you first get access to the spell level. The Favored Soul is low Tier 2 to be sure, but the only way to relegate it to T3 is to claim that the Cleric list doesn't have enough game-breaking spells, which I don't think is true.
    Well, if the Favored Soul is substantively worse than the Beguiler (reasonable, I think), and the Beguiler is Tier Three, I don't think you can say the Favored Soul is Tier Two. Unless the Beguiler is not actually deserving of Tier Three, in which case sure.
    Last edited by Cosi; 2017-01-22 at 08:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    I don't think an hours/level 10ft bonus to a single target's move speed is worth picking as one of your three to six first level spells. What's the use-case for that? Is giving your beat-stick a 10ft movement buff worth giving up whatever the next best Cleric spell? I'm not convinced that's the case.
    This was already explained to you: it's so you can cast Bigger Grease -- aka Ice Slick -- and let your BSF fight inside your BFC without falling down.

    It's a synergy spell, like Freedom of Movement + Wall of Thorns.

    This is the 2nd time I've explained this to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Yeah, and Arcane Disciple is a feat that exists. I'm not sure why you think this is something where the Favored Soul comes out ahead.
    Yeah, you're having difficulty with this whole conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    One third of your first level spells.
    I listed Snowshoes at level 3, at which point a Favored Soul knows four first-level spells.

    One third of four total first-level spells.

    Dude. C'mon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    As far as I can tell, so can the Beguiler. It looks like Mother Cyst just grants you the spells, regardless of what class you nominally are.
    Another thing I guess I have to explain:

    Mother Cyst gives you access to the spells which are on your list. The class list restrictions are in the spells themselves.

    It's useful to Sorcerers, Wizards, and Clerics (and therefore Favored Souls), but not Druids or Beguilers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Uh, what? I don't understand what point you think you're making. To activate a Runestaff, you just need to make the DC 21 check to emulate the 1st level Sorcerer class feature of "has shrink item on your spell list". Maybe also the DC 25 check to Activate Blindly. Is there some restriction that you can only UMD spell trigger or spell-completion items I'm missing? As far as I can tell, these are the only references to either in the SRD's section to UMD:
    Having a spell on your list isn't a class feature.

    If it was possible to do what you want, there would be no need to have spell-trigger & spell-completion capability called out.

    Sorry, the rules don't work like you want them to work. You can't do things which aren't listed -- the skill doesn't have a specific prohibition list, it has a specific capability list. Things which aren't listed, like adding a spell to your list, are simply unavailable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Neither of those make any claim of exclusivity, and "Activate Blindly" would seem to cover the activation of Runestaves or other devices. In fact, one of the PHB examples of the use of the skill is the activation of an item that requires the use of Turn Undead attempts to function. Such an item would seem to obviously be neither a Spell Trigger or Spell Completion item.
    That's true.

    Turn Undead is a class feature.

    "I have X spell on my list" is apparently not a class feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    All a Favored Soul gets from Prestige Domains is the granted power. They have to learn the actual spells normally, which is not very impressive. Especially considering that many Domain Spells are actually on the Cleric list to begin with.
    Incorrect, and you were already told one of the ways around this.

    The example you were given was Dracolyte. It's not the only way, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Well, if the Favored Soul is substantively worse than the Beguiler (reasonable, I think), and the Beguiler is Tier Three, I don't think you can say the Favored Soul is Tier Two. Unless the Beguiler is not actually deserving of Tier Three, in which case sure.
    Wasn't the general consensus feeling like the Beguiler and Dread Necro were T2, though? Also, I don't see how you can say the Favored Soul is enough weaker than a Sorcerer to be T3.

    Okay. But then you're stuck with a bad base domain. substitute domain remedies that, but you're still behind the Beguiler who can do the same thing with an (eternal) wand and a better base domain. Plus, you spent two feats to get in. And you need some Knowledge (religion) ranks, which is a skill the Favored Soul famously does not get. Also, I recall that we are not supposed to be ranking PrCs.
    Okay, I admit that it's not a great option, and that specific PrC shouldn't enter into it, the basic fact is that getting access to domains is easy enough, there are plenty of domains out there that grant good spells not already on the Cleric list, and Favored Souls have plenty of spells known.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Okay, I admit that it's not a great option, and that specific PrC shouldn't enter into it, the basic fact is that getting access to domains is easy enough, there are plenty of domains out there that grant good spells not already on the Cleric list, and Favored Souls have plenty of spells known.
    Just be a Favored Soul of the Sovereign Host, then enter Dracolyte to get domain slots, and finish up with Sovereign Speaker to nab up to 9 more Domains.

    If you focus your Domain spells on downtime-capability stuff, you get a nice mix of active-battle spells (your main slots) and downtime-utility capability.

    Plus, of course, some spiffy Domain powers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    This was already explained to you: it's so you can cast Bigger Grease -- aka Ice Slick -- and let your BSF fight inside your BFC without falling down.
    Or you could cast color spray to win the fight with one spell. I understand how it works, it's just not very impressive. Also, you could have people use ranged attacks.

    One third of four total first-level spells.

    Dude. C'mon.
    4 / 3 = 1.3. Which is less than the two spells you spent for your ice slick combo. Is your argument "you're wrong that it's an out-sized investment, because you underestimated how much of an investment it is" or can you not division?

    Mother Cyst gives you access to the spells which are on your list. The class list restrictions are in the spells themselves.
    That depends on whether you think "access" means "add to list of known" or "allow to learn". If it's the first, the Beguiler gets it too. If it's the second, you have to spend spells known on the spells.

    Having a spell on your list isn't a class feature.
    Yes it is, it's (part of) the "Spells" class feature.

    If it was possible to do what you want, there would be no need to have spell-trigger & spell-completion capability called out.
    How do you figure? Those things are called out because they have different DCs to do. A scroll (or other spell completion item) is DC 20 + Item Caster Level. A wand (or other spell trigger item) is a flat DC 20. Emulating a class feature is (effectively) DC 20 + desired level. Activating blindly is DC 25. They're called out separately because they have separate rules.

    "I have X spell on my list" is apparently not a class feature.

    Incorrect, and you were already told one of the ways around this.
    Which I responded to. You're awfully condescending for someone who doesn't read my posts.

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    Default Re: Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

    Remember that Favored Souls do actually have quite a lot of spells known, more than Sorcerers, so they have a bit more flexibility in the spells they can pick.

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    I like Nifft's suggestion of sacrificing two caster levels as a class that is already a half a spell level behind, ensuring you only get 9th level spells at 20th level. Or that your cohort has (potentially) as much divine casting as you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Wasn't the general consensus feeling like the Beguiler and Dread Necro were T2, though? Also, I don't see how you can say the Favored Soul is enough weaker than a Sorcerer to be T3.
    Well, the ranking of those classes is Tier Three. If the Favored Soul is comparable to them, either it is Tier Three or they are Tier Two. Given that we cannot re-vote, if the Tier List is to be consistent, we must vote Tier Three for the Favored Soul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Well, the ranking of those classes is Tier Three. If the Favored Soul is comparable to them, either it is Tier Three or they are Tier Two. Given that we cannot re-vote, if the Tier List is to be consistent, we must vote Tier Three for the Favored Soul.
    The Favored Soul doesn't cast from a fixed list.
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