Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

[Troacctid]

A consistent tier list ranks comparable classes comparably.

[Nifft]

Also, you could have people use ranged attacks.

Yes, that's why half the spell paths I laid out didn't use Snowshoes.

Well done, you successfully understood part of my post after only a few hours of extra effort.

4 / 3 = 1.3. Which is less than the two spells you spent for your ice slick combo. Is your argument "you're wrong that it's an out-sized investment, because you underestimated how much of an investment it is" or can you not division?

Stop. Your previous point was based on your misunderstanding of the difference between 4 and 3. ("One third of your first level spells" when you'd have four 1st-level spells.)

You didn't understand that I was pointing out that 4 =/= 3, and now you're trying to mock my math ability?

Jesus, dude, a conversation with you is like a dumpster fire: flames based on garbage.

"I have X spell on my list" is apparently not a class feature.

Correct at last. Glad you've come around.

Which I responded to. You're awfully condescending for someone who doesn't read my posts.

You mean the post that happened while I was writing my response, which I couldn't have seen before posting?

Or the one that you edited after I posted?

You're actually trying to get me to feel bad about not reading things that weren't in the thread when I hit Reply.

That's the least intelligent argument I've seen on this site.

About the tone: it was yours to start with. I'm responding to you with your own language and voice. If you don't like it, well, that says something about how you relate to other people.

[GilesTheCleric]

Casting, personally. I think it tends to fit the tier better.

Definitely. Here's what I've come up with. I've tried to limit the number of dragmag/ web/ setting-specific spells, and there's a few substitutes here in case anyone takes issue with a few spells.

Spoiler: @Lvl 15 Spells known 9/6/6/6/6/5/4/3, LE or NE alignment (LG/ NG also works well)

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0 (9)
Yes

1 (6)
Drug Resistance (buffs)
Ice Slick (BFC)
Obscuring Mist (BFC)
Heartache (will SoL)
Sign (buff)
Painless Death (no save w/ diplomacy)

Swap out:
Detect Fire (after Call Zelekhut)

2 (6)
Share Talents (skills)
Silence (BFC, no save)
Dark Way (BFC, movement)
Find Traps (skills)
Divine Insight (all the skills)
Protection from X (immunity)

Swap out:
Shatter (movement) (after Footsteps of the Divine)

Other picks:
Summon Elysian Thrush (traps, scouting, healing) (Good)
Augury (divination)
Rigor Mortis (fort save)
Guidance of the Avatar (skills)


3 (6)
Animate Dead (minions)
Control Sand (BFC)
Dominate Vermin (minions)
Footsteps of the Divine (movement)
Laogzed's Breath (fort SoL)
Blade of Pain and Fear (will SoS)

Swap out during leveling:
Dispel Magic (after Call Zelekhut)

Other picks:
Venomfire (blasting)
Affliction (debuffing)
Chain of Eyes (divination)
Blindness (fort SoL)
Magic Circle Against X (immunity)
Shivering Touch (no save)
Meld Into Stone (movement)
Glyph of Warding (action economy)

4 (6)
Divination (divination)
Boccob's Rolling Cloud (ref save, blasting)
Freedom of Movement (movement, immunity)
Wall of Sand (no save SoD, BFC)
Venom Bolt (fort SoL)
Mystic Aegis (immunity)

Other picks:
Giant Vermin (minions, better with GM permission for more options)
Consumptive Field (+CL)
Dweomer of Transference (immunity)
Air Walk (movement)
Stop Heart (fort SoD)
Wrack (fort SoL)

5 (5)
Call Zelekhut (debuffs, divination, anti-movement)
Plane Shift (movement)
Elemental Guardian (minions)
Incarnation of Set (polymoph)
Doomtide (will save, BFC)

Other picks:
Streamers ("no" button)
Bewildering Mischance (debuff)
Oath of Blood (minions)
Heartclutch (fort SoD)
Boreal Wind (BFC, blasting)
Wall of Ooze (fort SoD)
Door of Decay (movement)
Spell Haven (action economy)
Commune (divination)
Frostbite (no save)
True Seeing (divination)
Scrying (divination)
Investiture of the Orthon (anti-movement)

6 (4)
Antilife Shell (immunity)
Dispel Magic, Greater ("no" button)
Heal (cure)
Create Undead (minion)

Other picks:
Call Faithful Servants (minion, immunity, blasting) (Good)
Zealot Pact (blasting)
Glyph of Warding, Greater (action economy)
Mummify (fort SoD)
Meersalm Skin (immunity)
Eyes of the Oracle (action economy)
Awaken from Afar (utility, tricky)
Find the Path (foresight)
Word of Recall (movement)

7 (3)
Blasphemy (no save SoD, SoL, SoS)
Ethereal Jaunt (movement)
Fey Ring (minion, divination)

Other picks:
Planar Bubble (action economy, buffs)
Shield of the Archons (immunity) (Good)
Holy Transformation (buffs) (Good)
Holy Word (no save SoD, SoL, SoS) (Good)


You could also just prepare Summon Monster X, Summon Undead X, Conjure Ice Beast X, or the Planar Ally line at every chance. I didn't include those in the above, but each of them individually provide an incredible amount of versatility and are pretty obvious picks.

A lot of the spells that a Cleric would find far more powerful (Word of Recall, Glyph of Warding) are limited because of the FS's spells known. However, there's still a great variety of potent spells from which to pick. The other problem is that although FSs can have access to a lot of the same combos as Clerics, they clearly pay a much higher opportunity cost to use them.

[Jormengand]

I cannot believe I am having to say this, but please do not protest-vote, which includes voting another class as a lower tier because you think a previous class's tier was incorrect. Even if we start from the assumption that the Beguiler is tier 2, a tier list where one class is misplaced (and therefore the order is slightly incorrect, by one class) is better than a tier list where every class is misplaced to match (but at least the order is correct!)

[Troacctid]

Even if we start from the assumption that the Beguiler is tier 2, a tier list where one class is misplaced (and therefore the order is slightly incorrect, by one class) is better than a tier list where every class is misplaced to match (but at least the order is correct!)

I disagree with this.

[Jormengand]

I disagree with this.

Sure. That's your prerogative. But what would be even worse than either of those would be if people have conflicting standards for whether a class should be tiered at its actual tier, or its actual tier plus one, and therefore we have about half the classes, essentially at random, mis-tiered by 1. So I'm asking that you use the standard which has been stated in the thread: vote for the tier which you think that the class is legitimately in.

[Zanos]

A consistent tier list ranks comparable classes comparably.

The point of my post was to contest their comparability.

[GilesTheCleric]

The point of my post was to contest their comparability.

Why is everyone itP changing things? First Troacctid changes their avatar, then Dire_Stirge changes their name+avatar, and now you, too? I'm not going to know who anyone is if this keeps up!

[Zanos]

Why is everyone itP changing things? First Troacctid changes their avatar, then Dire_Stirge changes their name+avatar, and now you, too? I'm not going to know who anyone is if this keeps up!

It's what's inside that counts.

And there's a skeleton inside of me.

[GilesTheCleric]

It's what's inside that counts.

And there's a skeleton inside of me.

*puts on shades* yeeeeeaaa.... oh, you beat me to it.

[Cosi]

@Jormengand: You should note that I haven't actually voted for anything at all. I think the categories for the Tiers are unhelpful, so I'm making arguments about class balance without voicing an opinion on how that balance fits into the tiers.

I think I'm done with Nifft. He's descended to personal insults and attacking me based on editing errors, so I no longer really care what he has to say.

If someone else would like to advance polite, good faith arguments for the Favored Soul, I will engage them.

Actually, Giles did that, so I'll engage him.

Spoiler: Beguiler/Favored Soul Analysis

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1 (6)
Drug Resistance (buffs)
Ice Slick (BFC)
Obscuring Mist (BFC)
Heartache (will SoL)
Sign (buff)
Painless Death (no save w/ diplomacy)

drug resistance is an interesting spell. What drugs were you planning on using with it? It can be taken with Advanced Learning though (as it is a Sorcerer/Wizard Enchantment spell), so it seems kind of moot. obscuring mist is a Beguiler spell to begin with.

As I've mentioned, I'm not terribly impressed with ice slick. At low levels it's good, but by 15th most things fly, teleport, or otherwise ignore it. I think I'd rather have silent image at that point. heartache similarly seems worse than charm person, particularly at high levels.

painless death seems kind of bad. I've you've Diplomance'd someone to the point they'll let you cast random spells on them, why do you need to kill them? I also don't like sign much. High initiative matters much less in later rounds when it can't be used decisively.

Overall, I think the Beguiler is winning here, though things might be closer at lower levels as I think the Beguiler has the advantage of spells that age very well at 1st level.

2 (6)
Share Talents (skills)
Silence (BFC, no save)
Dark Way (BFC, movement)
Find Traps (skills)
Divine Insight (all the skills)
Protection from X (immunity)

silence is a Beguiler spell. find traps just gives you a Beguiler class feature. The skill bonus is nice, but unless you invest ranks the Beguiler still likely has a higher check. dark way is an Illusion spell the Beguiler could take with Advanced Learning (admittedly, not terribly likely as it trades off with 3rd level spells). It is a quite nice BFC option though, but the Beguiler gets glitterdust at this level.

share talents, divine insight, and protection from evil are all solid utility choices. But the Beguiler is not without utility at this level. knock, invisibility, detect thoughts, spider climb, and minor image are all good options.

This seems close, and IMHO comes down to whether you value the Beguiler's new capabilities (like detect thoughts) or the Favored Soul's impressive bonuses more.

3 (6)
Animate Dead (minions)
Control Sand (BFC)
Dominate Vermin (minions)
Footsteps of the Divine (movement)
Laogzed's Breath (fort SoL)
Blade of Pain and Fear (will SoS)

animate dead and dominate vermin are both good choices. The Beguiler doesn't have any immediately comparable options, though getting charm monster at 8th goes a long way. Those may be enough to put the Beguiler behind here, though obviously it can pick them up with various tricks.

control sand seems quite dependent on having a suitable environment. slow seems like it would be comparable or better in most situations. laogzed's breath is similar, in that it's comparable to the Beguiler's save or suck AoEs. Targeting a variety of saves is admittedly nice, though the Beguiler gets vertigo field at this level to compensate. blade of pain and fear is a single target will save-or-suck that does not look substantively better than the plethora of Beguiler options that are available here.

footsteps of the divine is genuinely very good. The Beguiler does not have a direct answer, although he does have utility options like arcane sight and dispel magic.

The Favored Soul has key advantages here in the utility areas, but the Beguiler still has some stuff going on, and IMHO wins the combat spells overall at this level.

4 (6)
Divination (divination)
Boccob's Rolling Cloud (ref save, blasting)
Freedom of Movement (movement, immunity)
Wall of Sand (no save SoD, BFC)
Venom Bolt (fort SoL)
Mystic Aegis (immunity)

freedom of movement is a Beguiler spell. boccob's rolling cloud seems iffy. It's effectively 7.5d6 worth of damage, as most creatures will be healed by either the positive or negative energy. Overall, I don't see it as great.

Describing wall of sand as no save is technically accurate, but seems sort of unfair given that people do get out with strength checks. It's a good way to win an encounter, but charm monster has a much bigger upside. venom bolt is a nasty spell, confusion, rainbow pattern, and solid fog aren't leaving the Beguiler without AoE options here.

mystic aegis is nifty as a reactive spell, but the Beguiler has greater mirror image for that, and it seems like a better pick.

divination is good. And the Beguiler doesn't have anything directly comparable. There's a divination suite that's there, but it's far from exceptional.

Overall, the Favored Soul has some raw power here, but the Beguiler has a lot more finesse and gets charm monster, which is pretty insane.

5 (5)
Call Zelekhut (debuffs, divination, anti-movement)
Plane Shift (movement)
Elemental Guardian (minions)
Incarnation of Set (polymoph)
Doomtide (will save, BFC)

The Beguiler has no answer to plane shift at this level. It's better than his utility options, and quite useful.

Many of the zelekhut's (admittedly at-will) SLAs are from the Beguiler list, so it's less of an advantage than it might seem. What is the lesser elemental elemental guardian summons? A quick google doesn't turn up anything clear to me. I also can't find incarnation of set anywhere.

doomtide is very good, and the Beguiler doesn't have any native comparable options.

Overall, this seems like the first solid win for the Favored Soul. The Beguiler has some other stuff going on, but the Favored Soul looks to me to be ahead.

6 (4)
Antilife Shell (immunity)
Dispel Magic, Greater ("no" button)
Heal (cure)
Create Undead (minion)

The Beguiler gets greater dispel magic.

antilife shell is good, although not as good as it looks because many high level threats are ranged. The Beguiler's replusion is overall weaker, but has some utility in stopping all types of creatures.

heal doesn't really impress me. Healing is fundamentally reactive.

create greater undead is not substantively better than dominate person or charm monster, barring circumstances that seem quite contrived to me (you encounter a bunch of stuff to animate but nothing to mind control).

Overall, I think the Beguiler pulls back here. This level also has a variety of spells (e.g. mass suggestion) that fill holes at earlier levels.

7 (3)
Blasphemy (no save SoD, SoL, SoS)
Ethereal Jaunt (movement)
Fey Ring (minion, divination)

ethereal jaunt is a Beguiler spell.

blasphemy is bad, because you mostly fight evil stuff which is immune. You could take holy word, but that would lock you out of undead creation. The whole cycle is also not that compelling without caster level cheese of some kind. Almost any boss monster ignores them, most equal level monsters do, and even some minions shrug it off. Devastating when it works, but I don't see it working often.

fey ring is good utility. But the Beguiler has probably taken greater shadow conjuration as his Advanced Learning here, which gives him summon monster up to 6th and some nasty tricks in combat (e.g. major creation for a cage full of lava or poison).

Overall, the Beguiler looks to be ahead here, but that might just be poor spell choice.

This is obviously not a perfect analysis. I've ignored most Advanced Learnings, and any spell that didn't directly compare to the Favored Soul's list. I also skipped a few spells I couldn't find info on. I ignored the substitution options, because they don't make the character in question better, the post is already quite long, and I expected that Giles put his best foot forward. Overall though, the Beguiler looks close to as good if not better. IMHO, it really comes down to charm monster versus the Favored Soul's utility options.

I also think comparisons of just class spells are imperfect because they don't really account for the optimization Beguilers do. Beguiler optimization would involve feats, items, or PrCs to expand their spell list, which aren't considered here, while Favored Soul splat diving is. The Beguiler I'm comparing to is essentially Core + PHB II, while the Favored Soul uses way more sources.

You could also just prepare Summon Monster X, Summon Undead X, Conjure Ice Beast X, or the Planar Ally line at every chance. I didn't include those in the above, but each of them individually provide an incredible amount of versatility and are pretty obvious picks.

Those are good choices, but they run into a problem Sorcerers and Favored Souls have. You don't want all of the earlier ones at any particular level, but you also can't not take them as you progress.

A lot of the spells that a Cleric would find far more powerful (Word of Recall, Glyph of Warding) are limited because of the FS's spells known. However, there's still a great variety of potent spells from which to pick. The other problem is that although FSs can have access to a lot of the same combos as Clerics, they clearly pay a much higher opportunity cost to use them.

That's pretty much what I'm getting at. Much of what makes the Cleric powerful is waking up tomorrow to be something completely different. The Favored Soul doesn't have that.

[GilesTheCleric]

Re Cosi: Thank you for your civility. I agree with just about everything you've written; exceptions/ clarifications are below.

Spoiler

Show

drug resistance is an interesting spell. What drugs were you planning on using with it?

It can be used with any of the drugs, which is why it's nice. I've got Liquid Pain, Baccaran, Luhix, and Terran Brandy written down as being good picks for Clerics; I'm too lazy to dig through books to find all the drugs, though. I think that like spells, there's a drug for most types of bonuses.

As I've mentioned, I'm not terribly impressed with ice slick

I agree. That's why I reduce the number of ground-based BFCs I pick as the levels increase. For the levels that it does work, it's very potent.

painless death seems kind of bad. I've you've Diplomance'd someone to the point they'll let you cast random spells on them, why do you need to kill them?

Good point. For Clerics it's a very good spell, since you can combo it with transposition spells, disguises, dominate, charm, or any other of a number of effects. However, in-game, just diplomancing a foe doesn't mean that they've stopped being your enemy or working at cross purposes to you. Plus, this can conceivably work as soon as the target is "indifferent".

I also don't like sign much. High initiative matters much less in later rounds when it can't be used decisively.

Going first in later rounds means that you've been subject to less pain from enemies, and are thus less likely to have been shut down.

control sand seems quite dependent on having a suitable environment. slow seems like it would be comparable or better in most situations.

That's true. I don't think that Slow is as good, since it doesn't stop casters from doing their thing. Control Sand is definitely more situational than Slow, you're right.

boccob's rolling cloud seems iffy. It's effectively 7.5d6 worth of damage, as most creatures will be healed by either the positive or negative energy. Overall, I don't see it as great.

It explicitly doesn't heal anything with any of its damage. I think it's also the only spell in the game that natively has more than two types of damage vanilla, aside from Prismatic X.

Describing wall of sand as no save is technically accurate, but seems sort of unfair given that people do get out with strength checks.

Anyone trying to get out of it is going to have to give up a whole lot of actions to do so, since it scales up pretty quickly. If your CL isn't high enough to make a perfect ring around them, they're also going to have to blindly guess which direction is the shortest way through. It's not going to permanently stop a really buff brute from getting through, but it will net you an action advantage in addition to its BFC qualities.

elemental guardian summons? A quick google doesn't turn up anything clear to me.

You get to pick from one of each of the four inner plane elementals. I wrote this about them: "This nets you an 8HD Lesser Elemental Weird for day/CL. In terms of straight up combat, they have weak AC, BAB, Grp, HP, atk, and dmg. So pretty much everything. But, they have some useful special abilities, including an elemental breath attack, can Command same-type elementals they hit, suffocate things they’re grappling, have earth element gliding, are invisible while in their element (hello, invisible air elemental that also somehow suffocates things!), and are of course immune to their elemental damage type. So, each individual one isn’t very strong, but it’s made up for by the fact that you could have a whole herd of invisible air elementals all forcing your opponents to save against suffocation every round, which you prepared during downtime. Not bad."

I also can't find incarnation of set anywhere.

It's Polymorph, from Drag313 90. I wrote this about it: "Clerics don’t naturally get Alter Self (or Polymorph), but this is effectively that. Ignore that the description says it works like Alter Self; it’s hardly similar, and closer to Polymorph. This lets you turn into: normal, giant, or dire: black bear, brown bear, boar, crocodile, donkey, hippopotamus, hyena, saluki, constrictor snakes, viper snakes, and monstrous scorpions. The spell even says you can ask your GM to allow you to use it to turn into other things (eg. legendary bears, winged vipers). Since you gain the physical stats and special attacks of the things you turn into, this is especially good for melee forms, like the bear. Eggynack has a great discussion of these types of forms in his druid handbook’s wild shape section. It’s worth noting that snake forms will get you access to Venomfire, if you’re playing in a higher-op game."

antilife shell is good, although not as good as it looks because many high level threats are ranged. The Beguiler's replusion is overall weaker, but has some utility in stopping all types of creatures.

Good point. FS can pick either Antilife Shell or Repulsion, but I personally went with Antilife Shell, since things being ranged is better than them being in melee, preventing spellcasting. I agree with you on Repulsion.

heal doesn't really impress me. Healing is fundamentally reactive.

I agree. But, Heal removes just about every negative status condition, plus ability damage. For a FS that can't spontaneously cast Restoration, it's an important spell to have, if not directly on the list, then as a pile of scrolls.

blasphemy is bad, because you mostly fight evil stuff which is immune. You could take holy word, but that would lock you out of undead creation. The whole cycle is also not that compelling without caster level cheese of some kind. Almost any boss monster ignores them, most equal level monsters do, and even some minions shrug it off. Devastating when it works, but I don't see it working often.

I agree. However, I think that all casters probably aim to get at least a few CL boosters. Getting +4 to +8 (or even up to something like +20) purely from items isn't that tricky, and casters don't have a whole lot to spend their money on anyway.

The Wizard list is better than the Cleric list, so I'm not surprised if Beguilers are better than FSs. FSs are a pretty terrible class, because the class concept (limited spells known) is nearly 100% at odds with the design goals of the Cleric list (buffs, reactive spells, niche solutions). The Wizard list is naturally much more proactive, so Sorcerers (and Beguilers) aren't hindered nearly as much as a result.

I don't really want to get into a build competition between a FS and Beguiler, because that's more about player skill/ a race to NI wishes than the classes themselves.

[VisitingDaGulag]

I'm just stopping by to give Jorm some props. You've held your ground and you're still offering to herd cats.

Good job: saving variants until the end / making people think before they vote / not letting discussion drag for two months, etc

[Cosi]

I agree. That's why I reduce the number of ground-based BFCs I pick as the levels increase. For the levels that it does work, it's very potent.

I don't disagree, per se, I just think it (and grease) are the low end of the 1st level BFC options. Still very good, but not as nice as the Beguiler's options.

Good point. For Clerics it's a very good spell, since you can combo it with transposition spells, disguises, dominate, charm, or any other of a number of effects. However, in-game, just diplomancing a foe doesn't mean that they've stopped being your enemy or working at cross purposes to you. Plus, this can conceivably work as soon as the target is "indifferent".

Maybe. But in a world where this is a known tactic, I don't think you ever let anyone cast a spell on you that you don't know the identity of.

Going first in later rounds means that you've been subject to less pain from enemies, and are thus less likely to have been shut down.

Initiative is cyclic. Going earlier in the order of an ongoing fight doesn't matter that much (you could think of the round as being delimited at any initiative count), and sacrificing a turn to do so is a bad deal. High initiative is good because it lets you OHKO people, not in prolonged fights.

It explicitly doesn't heal anything with any of its damage. I think it's also the only spell in the game that natively has more than two types of damage vanilla, aside from Prismatic X.

Ah, the source I had missed that. Though my calculations were off (if it heals it's 5d6 net), so unless it ignores immunity as well it's still only 7.5d6. Even at 1d6/level blasting is pretty bad, and this doesn't even hit that.

Anyone trying to get out of it is going to have to give up a whole lot of actions to do so, since it scales up pretty quickly. If your CL isn't high enough to make a perfect ring around them, they're also going to have to blindly guess which direction is the shortest way through. It's not going to permanently stop a really buff brute from getting through, but it will net you an action advantage in addition to its BFC qualities.

True. But what is your Favored Soul doing with those actions? There's no line of effect to the guy inside the wall.

It's Polymorph, from Drag313 90. I wrote this about it: "Clerics don’t naturally get Alter Self (or Polymorph), but this is effectively that. Ignore that the description says it works like Alter Self; it’s hardly similar, and closer to Polymorph. This lets you turn into: normal, giant, or dire: black bear, brown bear, boar, crocodile, donkey, hippopotamus, hyena, saluki, constrictor snakes, viper snakes, and monstrous scorpions. The spell even says you can ask your GM to allow you to use it to turn into other things (eg. legendary bears, winged vipers). Since you gain the physical stats and special attacks of the things you turn into, this is especially good for melee forms, like the bear. Eggynack has a great discussion of these types of forms in his druid handbook’s wild shape section. It’s worth noting that snake forms will get you access to Venomfire, if you’re playing in a higher-op game."

I'm not terribly impressed with a version of polymorph that takes a higher level slot, doesn't grant utility abilities, and doesn't have the really OP forms like hydra. Wouldn't you rather shuffle things around for divine power?

I agree. But, Heal removes just about every negative status condition, plus ability damage. For a FS that can't spontaneously cast Restoration, it's an important spell to have, if not directly on the list, then as a pile of scrolls.

It is useful for that. I do think that waiting until 14th level to get that effect is sort of taking advantage of picking 15th level as a testing point. You want that effect at low levels too, so an organic Favored Soul would end up with slots wasted on e.g. restoration.

I agree. However, I think that all casters probably aim to get at least a few CL boosters. Getting +4 to +8 (or even up to something like +20) purely from items isn't that tricky, and casters don't have a whole lot to spend their money on anyway.

That starts fowling things a little. If you buy caster level boosters, presumably the Beguiler can buy Runestaves or Eternal Wands. Also, once you start boosting holy word et al, it's not obvious to me where the line is between that and The Word (arbitrary caster level).

I don't really want to get into a build competition between a FS and Beguiler, because that's more about player skill/ a race to NI wishes than the classes themselves.

Eh, I tend to discount the whole "infinite wishes" thing, because anyone can do it. You can buy Candles of Invocation for money.

[GilesTheCleric]

Initiative is cyclic. Going earlier in the order of an ongoing fight doesn't matter that much (you could think of the round as being delimited at any initiative count), and sacrificing a turn to do so is a bad deal. High initiative is good because it lets you OHKO people, not in prolonged fights.

Why would anyone cast this in the middle of combat? I think we're in agreement here.

Ah, the source I had missed that. Though my calculations were off (if it heals it's 5d6 net), so unless it ignores immunity as well it's still only 7.5d6. Even at 1d6/level blasting is pretty bad, and this doesn't even hit that.

This spell puts down damage on just about any creature, in nearly any situation. Sometimes that's what the doctor calls for. For a fixed-list caster without any feats for Searing Spell/ Piercing Cold/ etc, this is the only blasting spell worth taking purely on the basis of blasting (Aside from Venomfire. Since I'm not using combos, I'm ignoring it, though). This spell does full damage from every energy type to the foe. It's just CL/d6, cap 10, plus a daze.

True. But what is your Favored Soul doing with those actions? There's no line of effect to the guy inside the wall.

Killing all the other enemies. Buffing. Escaping.

I'm not terribly impressed with a version of polymorph that takes a higher level slot, doesn't grant utility abilities, and doesn't have the really OP forms like hydra. Wouldn't you rather shuffle things around for divine power?

Not personally. The versatility of having lots of forms far outweighs one spell. If this spell only gave you access to snake forms, it would still be great.

It is useful for that. I do think that waiting until 14th level to get that effect is sort of taking advantage of picking 15th level as a testing point. You want that effect at low levels too, so an organic Favored Soul would end up with slots wasted on e.g. restoration.

Fair enough. Are we judging the tiers based on "organic" builds? Regardless, the FS can still swap out Restoration later -- I think I only inluded two spell swaps in that list.

That starts fowling things a little. If you buy caster level boosters, presumably the Beguiler can buy Runestaves or Eternal Wands. Also, once you start boosting holy word et al, it's not obvious to me where the line is between that and The Word (arbitrary caster level).

I think we perceive CL boosting items differently. To me, they're no different than an Amulet of Wisdom to a Cleric, or a Cloak of Resistance or +X greatsword to a fighter. They're just numerical improvements. Maybe you see Runestaves as the Amulet of Wisdom of the Beguiler, and that's fine. I agree that things get messy if we get into items, so we can ignore that. I respect your opinion of Blasphemy, even if I disagree.

[Cosi]

Why would anyone cast this in the middle of combat? I think we're in agreement here.

When else are you casting it? It's not good in combat at all. Consider a fight between a Favored Soul and two monsters. The Favored Soul rolls between the monsters.

Without sign:

Monster A
Favored Soul casts an attack spell
Monster B
Monster A
Favored Soul casts an attack spell
Monster B
Monster A
Favored Soul casts an attack spell
...

With sign, rolling above both monsters:
Monster A
Favored Soul casts sign
Monster B
Favored Soul casts an attack spell
Monster A
Monster B
Favored Soul casts an attack spell
Monster A
Monster B
Favored Soul casts an attack spell
...

Casting sign, and nominally succeeding puts you behind the curve (Monsters A and B act before your first offensive spell). It gets even worse if you don't move up.

Not personally. The versatility of having lots of forms far outweighs one spell. If this spell only gave you access to snake forms, it would still be great.

I question the value those forms are getting you though. You already have footsteps of the divine for movement modes, what else are you looking for there?

Fair enough. Are we judging the tiers based on "organic" builds? Regardless, the FS can still swap out Restoration later -- I think I only inluded two spell swaps in that list.

It seems to me that part of the cost of Sorcerers and Favored Souls is having to take spells that aren't optimal overall because they're optimal now. Honestly though, the Tiers do a lot of things I think are wrong, so who am I to say?

I think we perceive CL boosting items differently. To me, they're no different than an Amulet of Wisdom to a Cleric, or a Cloak of Resistance or +X greatsword to a fighter. They're just numerical improvements. Maybe you see Runestaves as the Amulet of Wisdom of the Beguiler, and that's fine. I agree that things get messy if we get into items, so we can ignore that. I respect your opinion of Blasphemy, even if I disagree.

I think you have to go all or nothing with magic items (or feats, or PrCs, or whatever). If you go part-way, it's far to easy to make a reasonable sounding category that excludes things some classes need. I disagree with No Items, Class Only, Final Destination ranking, but I can kind of see what it's trying to do. But if you allow any items in, you'd have to explain why class power should be ranked for an environment with +4 Swords but not Holy Avengers, given that such an environment doesn't reflect the game at all and isn't "pure" on any axis.

[Lans]

I cannot believe I am having to say this, but please do not protest-vote, which includes voting another class as a lower tier because you think a previous class's tier was incorrect. Even if we start from the assumption that the Beguiler is tier 2, a tier list where one class is misplaced (and therefore the order is slightly incorrect, by one class) is better than a tier list where every class is misplaced to match (but at least the order is correct!)

Do you have a problem with us going back over classes that people have problems with at the end of the alternative classes?

[Lans]

were off (if it heals it's 5d6 net), so unless it ignores immunity as well it's still only 7.5d6. Even at 1d6/level blasting is pretty bad, and this doesn't even hit that.

.

I'm not a 100% on this, but I don't think positive energy heals unless its mentioned to do so. I recall that coming up with a spell, but it could of been 3.0

[GilesTheCleric]

When else are you casting it?

Before combat.

I question the value those forms are getting you though. You already have footsteps of the divine for movement modes, what else are you looking for there?

I'll direct you to Eggynack's excellent guide for the answer.

It seems to me that part of the cost of Sorcerers and Favored Souls is having to take spells that aren't optimal overall because they're optimal now. Honestly though, the Tiers do a lot of things I think are wrong, so who am I to say?

Everyone's got a different opinion of what the tiers are and mean, and that's what we're discussing here. More viewpoints can only help us ultimately reach a better conclusion.

I think you have to go all or nothing with magic items (or feats, or PrCs, or whatever). If you go part-way, it's far to easy to make a reasonable sounding category that excludes things some classes need. I disagree with No Items, Class Only, Final Destination ranking, but I can kind of see what it's trying to do. But if you allow any items in, you'd have to explain why class power should be ranked for an environment with +4 Swords but not Holy Avengers, given that such an environment doesn't reflect the game at all and isn't "pure" on any axis.

I agree. That's a problem with discussing the tier system -- "reasonable optimisation" is variable based on who you ask, and that becomes really evident when you start to consider items or feats that any class can have. I think the best we can do is make relative judgements, eg "Diplomacy is good for everyone, but it's better for a FS with Painless Death, or a Cleric with Guidance of the Avatar, or a cha-SAD Paladin." How much those should factor into the ratings, I don't think I'm qualified in optimising enough classes in the game to state.

[Cosi]

Before combat.

How is that supposed to work? It sets your initiative to 20 + your initiative modifier. On skimming, I misread it as 1d20 + modifier, so some of my posts are a little inaccurate, but it doesn't change those core thrust of the argument.

I agree. That's a problem with discussing the tier system -- "reasonable optimisation" is variable based on who you ask, and that becomes really evident when you start to consider items or feats that any class can have. I think the best we can do is make relative judgements, eg "Diplomacy is good for everyone, but it's better for a FS with Painless Death, or a Cleric with Guidance of the Avatar, or a cha-SAD Paladin." How much those should factor into the ratings, I don't think I'm qualified in optimising enough classes in the game to state.

I think looking from the perspective of "optimization" at all is basically the wrong starting point. You can hit infinity with anything. What you should do is look at how hard it is to play a competent character, because "play a competent character" is something people set out to do in a way that "break the game" is not.

I also still think Diplomacy -> painless death is not much better than just Diplomacy. In a world where all sorts of nasty spells exist, I'm never going to let anyone I'm not 100% allied and on the level with cast a spell (particularly an unknown spell) on me. There's just too much risk that I get hit with something horrifying.

[GilesTheCleric]

How is that supposed to work? It sets your initiative to 20 + your initiative modifier. On skimming, I misread it as 1d20 + modifier, so some of my posts are a little inaccurate, but it doesn't change those core thrust of the argument.

I think you've accidentally looked at the wrong version of the spell. SC updates it to be +4 on your next init check, and it's 10min/CL duration, so easily castable before combat.

I think looking from the perspective of "optimization" at all is basically the wrong starting point. You can hit infinity with anything. What you should do is look at how hard it is to play a competent character, because "play a competent character" is something people set out to do in a way that "break the game" is not.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean when I say "reasonable" optimisation. Some folks are going to be happy with smacking things with a 1d8+3 heavy mace, while having the option to Web their foe so that they can continue the smacking. Others would rather win initiative and then open up with a Finger of Death. Both are competent, but one is clearly more efficient than the other.

I also still think Diplomacy -> painless death is not much better than just Diplomacy. In a world where all sorts of nasty spells exist, I'm never going to let anyone I'm not 100% allied and on the level with cast a spell (particularly an unknown spell) on me. There's just too much risk that I get hit with something horrifying.

No, it's not much better than just Diplomacy. I value it highly because it's a first level SoD, and as soon as you have 2nd level spells, you can instantly use it in conjunction with Guidance of the Avatar or Divine Insight, which you were going to learn anyway. There's other 1st level spells you could use instead, like Command. However, in making that FS list I've tried to avoid flooding the list with a bunch of SoDs/ identical effects in order to really emphasize the flexible, T2 nature of the class. Painless Death opens up a new game approach that Command doesn't, because it can be used to really capitalise on your successful social/ intrigue encounter.

[Troacctid]

But what would be even worse than either of those would be if people have conflicting standards for whether a class should be tiered at its actual tier, or its actual tier plus one, and therefore we have about half the classes, essentially at random, mis-tiered by 1.

Isn't that what we have now?

[Jormengand]

Isn't that what we have now?

Exactly, which is why I'm trying to enforce a single standard: for the purposes of this thread, each vote should be independent of the votes which came before it and each class should be voted into what the voters think is the correct absolute tier, not the correct relative tier.

[Troacctid]

But half the voters have different standards for half the tiers.

[Jormengand]

But half the voters have different standards for half the tiers.

If you mean that half the voters disagree with you on what's the correct tier for the class, then yes, yes they do. That's kinda the point of what we do here. But I'd rather we all agreed on the fundamental paradigm under which we're voting, because that's what makes the disagreements over where that paradigm takes us meaningful.

[eggynack]

I don't think an hours/level 10ft bonus to a single target's move speed is worth picking as one of your three to six first level spells. What's the use-case for that? Is giving your beat-stick a 10ft movement buff worth giving up whatever the next best Cleric spell? I'm not convinced that's the case.

Not really saying that. I just think the notion that snowshoes is just this combo is an inaccurate one. You're doing this alright buff thing that's likely doing better long-term (cause it applies to all movement modes, and you're not relying so much on those spells for combat stuff at that point), and you're doing this pretty good BFC thing that's likely doing better short-term (in a weird inversion, because it doesn't apply to all movement modes, and you're not relying on those spells for that as much by then). Not great, but you can't just leave off one half of the equation.

Definitely. Here's what I've come up with. I've tried to limit the number of dragmag/ web/ setting-specific spells, and there's a few substitutes here in case anyone takes issue with a few spells.

I should probably go through the list somewhat independently. One thing that's worth note here is that the favored soul obviously isn't always going to have all these spells at a particular level. They're never as far off as a sorcerer is by percentage, but it's a meaningful difference. I'm not sure what your exact ordering is. It's an especially important thing cause my current mode of comparison is kinda on a spell level by spell level basis, evaluating by the region before you get a whole new level of spells on the assumption that the highest spell level is most important by a good margin. Anyways, this looks really useful as a thinkin' tool.

I'll be specifically doing the beguiler thing, though I really don't think that inequality would prove favored souls as tier three. What I'm realistically expecting here is for the favored soul to do kinda similarly in the comparison, losing early and winning late, perhaps with some variance included on both sides, and if that happens I'm more or less convinced favored soul is tier two. Actually, I'm doing this paragraph while at third level spells, and I'm more or less convinced anyway. Cleric spells have some really interesting spots. Personally, the top of my mental tier three is bard right now, and your list is, without significant thought put in mind you, outdoing the bard. How could they not, in the end? But, even though I have pretty strongly held working assumptions here, it's still all worth taking a look at. At the very least, my cleric optimization discussion game has been seriously lacking.

Also, I've been meaning to do this comparison in favor of the beguiler tier two thing for awhile, and this is a reasonable time for that.

1 (6)
Drug Resistance (buffs)
Ice Slick (BFC)
Obscuring Mist (BFC)
Heartache (will SoL)
Sign (buff)
Painless Death (no save w/ diplomacy)

I think this is pretty clearly beguiler favored. I assumed that before checking the beguiler list, and I think looking confirms it. Most of the things you're doing, the beguiler does better, and what's left seems made up for by big advantages on the beguiler side in stuff like utility and sorta minionmancy. And that's assuming you're running all six spells. Expected result, cause beguilers are amazing early. Drug resistance looks really cool though.

2 (6)
Share Talents (skills)
Silence (BFC, no save)
Dark Way (BFC, movement)
Find Traps (skills)
Divine Insight (all the skills)
Protection from X (immunity)

Kinda confused by protection here, cause it's a first level spell. Not precisely sure how dark way does BFC. It's thin, so can't creatures usually go over or under it? Not sure what the rules for that are. I get it in a general sense, but it's a weird one in that role. The skill stuff is kinda interesting though. Anyway, I'm inclined to think the beguiler maintains the advantage here, especially against only three or four of the spells. Invisibility, glitterdust, silence (to match up one to one with the favored soul), knock, mirror image, and then a bunch other stuff that's a little less interesting like misdirection, detect thoughts, spider climb, and see invisibility.

3 (6)
Animate Dead (minions)
Control Sand (BFC)
Dominate Vermin (minions)
Footsteps of the Divine (movement)
Laogzed's Breath (fort SoL)
Blade of Pain and Fear (will SoS)

I don't like dominate vermin or control sand. The former is really short in duration for minionmancy, and the latter, as noted, is obviously sand specific for a spontaneous caster. Might wanna add the latter to my druid list though. Didn't notice the trench effect, and it seems good where applicable. Animate dead is obviously really good, and a significant advantage over beguilers. Footsteps has some really solid utility, but I don't think it does anything broken without persist. Not sure where breath is, but I assume it's roughly similar to other spells of its form (particularly looking at Cosi's discussion of it), and blade is neat, though the startup isn't ideal.

Anyways, on comparison, beguilers are still probably coming out on top here. Dispel magic, which should maybe be on the favored soul list, is great. Glibness is really great. Haste and slow aren't quite at that level, but they're really good too. It's consistently annoying that beguilers don't seem to have good flight options, and the favored soul is doing quite a bit better here (though perhaps not perfect), but these spells aren't doing too badly on a top three or four assessment. The rest, I think, more than makes up the rest of the favored soul space. Tons of SoX (even if the S part seems to hold constant) and some utility that the FS isn't getting (arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, crown of veils, and non-detection), in particular.

4 (6)
Divination (divination)
Boccob's Rolling Cloud (ref save, blasting)
Freedom of Movement (movement, immunity)
Wall of Sand (no save SoD, BFC)
Venom Bolt (fort SoL)
Mystic Aegis (immunity)

FoM pairs off, and I think solid fog does really well against wall of sand. Divination is always great, cloud is reasonable at its job if a bit boring, and the same is the case for bolt. Aegis seems pretty good too. I'm inclined to think the beguiler does better here. Charm monster, greater invisibility, locate object, and greater mirror image are all really good effects, and I think it's enough to overcome at least the three best of these spells, and probably the four best too. After that point, it becomes more about the alright stuff fighting the alright stuff than about really big hits duking it out, so it feels around even at 5 and 6.

5 (5)
Call Zelekhut (debuffs, divination, anti-movement)
Plane Shift (movement)
Elemental Guardian (minions)
Incarnation of Set (polymoph)
Doomtide (will save, BFC)

Incarnation of Set is indeed nice, as you've stated. You're essentially limited to brown bears, giant crocodiles, giant constrictors, and huge monstrous scorpions, unless I'm missing something, so big burly grappling forms all around. You're losing a lot of the cool utility stuff from polymorph and wild shape alike, and that's gotta be my favorite thing from the spell/ability, but it's nice that this condenses a lot of what you want in terms of combat into a single spell. The biggest downside is that, as far as I can tell, you're not casting at all in this grapple-form. It's still usable, because sometimes you just want to consume face, but spells are good and junk, and losing the rest of your duration to call upon most of your utility is a problem.

Anyway, the favored soul seems significantly favored here. Call zelekhut is really strong on a favored soul, plane shift isn't liable to be replicated, and those two combined with one of the other three seems sufficient. Doomtide seems really good, though I'm not sure where elemental guardian is. Doesn't matter overmuch.

6 (4)
Antilife Shell (immunity)
Dispel Magic, Greater ("no" button)
Heal (cure)
Create Undead (minion)

This level is surprisingly even. Dispel kinda pairs off, heal is really great, shell is pretty good, and create is quite good too. Compare that to the shadow walk based pseudo-teleport access, true seeing, and, say, mislead, and the two classes are hitting really different but each quite good points.

7 (3)
Blasphemy (no save SoD, SoL, SoS)
Ethereal Jaunt (movement)
Fey Ring (minion, divination)

Fey ring might be great enough on its own to carry the level without question, especially because you're getting siabrie access really fast, which is good because jaunt is obviously getting paired off. Blasphemy is really good, and the beguiler spells really mostly aren't, so FS has a clear advantage.

Looking back over some of Cosi's opinions, it looks like we agree on most things, so I suspect I wasn't too far off. I'd strongly expect FS to win at 16 and 17, and they kinda tie after that, with the FS getting maybe a level of advantage out of it. The two classes strike me as reasonably even, and the win and loss points are similar to those of a sorcerer, so tier two definitely seems right for all of these classes. Honestly, the couple of problems that have been noted with the list might even make the case more convincing, because it means we're not working with a theoretical spell picking robot, and that things can still be really good under those circumstances. I'm sticking with my current tiering on that basis.

I cannot believe I am having to say this, but please do not protest-vote, which includes voting another class as a lower tier because you think a previous class's tier was incorrect. Even if we start from the assumption that the Beguiler is tier 2, a tier list where one class is misplaced (and therefore the order is slightly incorrect, by one class) is better than a tier list where every class is misplaced to match (but at least the order is correct!)

I agree on this point, at least. You might end up with a silly list at the end of it, probably sillier than the one that'd be created otherwise, but ya gotta vote in accordance with your heart. Also, doing that happens to be way better for protest voting purposes. I'd have been pretty amused if dread necros had gotten a slot above beguilers on the tier list.

I'm just stopping by to give Jorm some props. You've held your ground and you're still offering to herd cats.

I don't really agree with these rhetorical props. Not simply due to my disagreement with them, but because standing your ground is a value neutral thing. It all depends on whether the ground you're standing on is good or not. Proper ground evaluation is the key, to my mind.

[Lans]

Let's try to get things right going forward, and we can go back and redo things that people feel are mistiered later. Putting sorcerer in tier 3 because beguiler may have been mistakenly put there just compunds the problems.

[Troacctid]

But I'd rather we all agreed on the fundamental paradigm under which we're voting, because that's what makes the disagreements over where that paradigm takes us meaningful.

Okay, but we clearly don't agree on the fundamental paradigms, so...

[Jormengand]

Okay, but we clearly don't agree on the fundamental paradigms, so...

Which is why I'm setting a paradigm for this thread which I believe to be the more useful one (as other posters have pointed out).

[OldTrees1]

If you mean that half the voters disagree with you on what's the correct tier for the class, then yes, yes they do. That's kinda the point of what we do here. But I'd rather we all agreed on the fundamental paradigm under which we're voting, because that's what makes the disagreements over where that paradigm takes us meaningful.

Jormengand, it has been years since anyone had any chance of convincing this forum against relative tiering. You can ask people to ignore the previous vote results, but they will continue to compare to those classes because they are reference points that people have in common.

You are right that it would be ideal if people voted as if each vote were the 1st vote, but that is not going to happen. This forum does not do such things well. However on the off chance I am wrong and it is merely improbable, I encourage you to continue pushing for every vote is the 1st vote mentality.