Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

[Jormengand]

Do they get the ability to fly?

Yes, for a round. Which is barely gonna be useful.

[noce]

Yes, for a round. Which is barely gonna be useful.

With their available spells per day, they can swift fly as many rounds as the combat lasts.

Moreover, quick casting Dimension Hop gives them a pseudo pouce, that is situationally better than flying towards your target, if he flies no further than Dimension Hop range.

[Jormengand]

With their available spells per day, they can swift fly as many rounds as the combat lasts.

Moreover, quick casting Dimension Hop gives them a pseudo pouce, that is situationally better than flying towards your target, if he flies no further than Dimension Hop range.

Their in-combat ability is not in question. Their out-of-combat inability is what prevents them moving to T3.

[Aimeryan]

Their in-combat ability is not in question. Their out-of-combat inability is what prevents them moving to T3.

This is how I see it too, although to be honest it isn't like they have anywhere near the combat versatility of Casters, either. Still, it is their general out-of-combat inability that would prevent me from listing them as Tier 3.

If I could, I would call them what they are; Tier 3.5: generally not useful outside of their area of expertise, but sometimes they are. Tier 4 being defined as often useless outside of their area of expertise, while Tier 3 being defined as being useful outside of their area of expertise.

[gooddragon1]

A simpler tier list could be as follows:

Tier 6: No Familiar, Can't Specialize spellcasting, not fighter, is truenamer
Tier 5: No Familiar, Can't Specialize spellcasting, not truenamer, is fighter
Tier 4: No Familiar, Can't Specialize spellcasting, not truenamer or fighter
Tier 3: No Familiar (but can get one), Can't Specialize spellcasting <-Lightning warrior
Tier 2: Gets familiar, Can't Specialize Spellcasting
Tier 1: Gets familiar, Can specialize spellcasting

[Jormengand]

Tier 6: is truenamer
Tier 1: Gets familiar, Can specialize spellcasting

Lel at T6 truenamers and T1 adepts.

Anyway, I think we've had our week. Please put your hands together for the:

Fighter
Healer (MHB)
Hexblade (CWr)
Incarnate (MoI)
Jester (DrC)
Knight (PH2)

I don't suppose our friend with the magic spreadsheet could get the tiers of the last six for me? It sounds easier than me doing it manually.

[Karl Aegis]

Oh man, it's Healer time. I don't think I actually have Champions of Valor lying around anywhere. Are the sanctified spells in there worth looking at? What about the Spell Compendium, what's fair game to add to the healer list in the Spell Compendium? I just sort of assume there is nothing in Spell Compendium for Healers because they officially don't get anything from there.

[ComaVision]

At serious risk to my self-esteem, I'll risk taking a first stab at this.

Fighter 45 I had a bit of difficulty picking here. If the feats are oriented towards 2H fighting then the Fighter should be doing damage sufficient for T4, in my opinion. They're a bit weaker than the Barbarian though, without any actual class features, and a worse skill list. They're probably the bottom of T4.

Healer (MHB) 34 I'm assuming access to Sanctified spells. I think there is enough diversity within Sanctified spells to make a broad enough spell list (along with the in-class capability to restore ability damage) to belong to T3. If the majority feels that we shouldn't assume Sanctified spell access, then the Healer probably falls to T5.

Hexblade (CWr) 5 I don't think there's a lot to say here. It was WoTC's first attempt at a "gish-in-a-can" and was far less successful than the Duskblade. It does have a few cool tricks it can do, and a nice ACF, but the spells are too little, too late to break out of T4.
EDIT: I've reconsidered. The Hexblade has very limited spells to choose from and lots of them give saves, that are going to have terribly low DCs. Changed to T5.

Incarnate (MoI) 34 I see this one being a point for debate. The Incarnate is capable of switching its skill load almost entirely each day and can even pick up some class abilities (Trapfinding) with some soulmelds. I think it's really high book-keeping for what you get but I think the ability to prepare for whatever you're going into is pretty T3. Alternatively, without some ability, the Incarnate can totally lack any teeth and just end being bad at everything and the weak chassis doesn't help.

Jester (DrC) 3 The Jester is basically a weaker bard with no splat support. It's nothing special but it's still a 2/3 caster with a decent spell list so it should fit into T3 fine.

Knight (PH2) 5 MAD, class abilities that barely work, low skills and bad skill list. This slides nicely into the T5 groove with the Dragon Shaman and Divine Mind.

[ComaVision]

Oh man, it's Healer time. I don't think I actually have Champions of Valor lying around anywhere. Are the sanctified spells in there worth looking at? What about the Spell Compendium, what's fair game to add to the healer list in the Spell Compendium? I just sort of assume there is nothing in Spell Compendium for Healers because they officially don't get anything from there.

I think you need to check out Sanctified spells for the Healer. I've assumed Spell Compendium is a no-go because it doesn't explicitly give them anything.

[Jormengand]

I guess I oughta vote.

Fighter: 54X. I don't know that I've ever seen a fighter who was even competent at fighting, but I acknowledge that some system mastery can move them up a tier with a lot of effort. Generally, though, they don't seem overly capable of dealing with encounters which they're meant to be able to defeat, and are almost entirely incompetent when it comes to other encounters.

Healer (MHB): X42. Is it more likely that a healer will be exalted and using special uber-goody-goody spells from That One Book, or not? I don't know, given that this is 3.5 optimisation we're talking about. With these spells, the healer becomes able to call creatures to serve her every whim; without, she's stuck changing numbers in combat. Diplomacy on the skill list is okay, but not changing anything. The fact that your power is radically altered by your alignment? Straight into TX.

Hexblade (CWr): 45. Arcane paladin. Misses out on the paladin's SotAO nonsense in exchange for a spell list that does something natively.

Incarnate (MoI): Pass. Not my speciality.

Jester (DrC): 3 Odd bard? Has similar effects, and being able to turn everyone friendly is fun. Vexing Dialogue is also exceptionally nasty, though it comes online fairly late. The Jester is rarely without some level-appropriate response to the situation he finds himself in.

Knight (PH2): 5 I see this as changing numbers in combat, and not especially well either. +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls and will saves? The barbarian's rolling his eyes. High will save only is weird but okay.

[Mehangel]

Fighter 5,4
Healer (MHB) 3,2
Hexblade (CWr) 4
Incarnate (MoI) 3
Jester (DrC) 3
Knight (PH2) 5

[Cosi]

The Incarnate is terrible. Your big deal abilities are bonuses to skills, but unless you're pumping your bonuses high enough to make epic skill checks, skills don't do enough things for people to care. A really big bonus to Climb is equivalent to a 2nd level spell (spider climb) and worse than a 3rd level spell (fly). What is a 10th level Incarnate bringing to the table in a party of a Beguiler, a Dread Necromancer, and a Binder?

[Lans]

The Incarnate is terrible. Your big deal abilities are bonuses to skills, but unless you're pumping your bonuses high enough to make epic skill checks, skills don't do enough things for people to care. A really big bonus to Climb is equivalent to a 2nd level spell (spider climb) and worse than a 3rd level spell (fly). What is a 10th level Incarnate bringing to the table in a party of a Beguiler, a Dread Necromancer, and a Binder?

This- At low levels it is probably a tier 3. When skills matter he can be replicating having full or more ranks in them, but skills are a low level thing and they don't keep up.

At level 7 its probably comparable to a binder.

[Troacctid]

So we need to talk about the Healer's companion, because it's a big deal. Unicorns are cool, with healing and magic circles and all that. But lammasus effectively give you full casting as a Cleric 7. That's the entire Cleric list up to 4th level spells. And you don't have to use your action to cast any of them. That's very strong. And there's more. Nagas have Sorcerer casting, giving you access to that list as well. And gynosphinxes have some extremely powerful SLAs—notably the Symbol spells and Legend Lore, all with no components required. Oh, and you can change your companion every day, and you still have your normal spell allotment and all your actions on top of all this.

Basically, the companion is crazy good once you hit level 11+. If you're just looking at the Healer's spell list, you're going to get a misleading picture of the class. And if you're thinking it can't do anything except healing without access to Exalted spells, I'd say think again.

[ComaVision]

The Incarnate is terrible. Your big deal abilities are bonuses to skills, but unless you're pumping your bonuses high enough to make epic skill checks, skills don't do enough things for people to care. A really big bonus to Climb is equivalent to a 2nd level spell (spider climb) and worse than a 3rd level spell (fly). What is a 10th level Incarnate bringing to the table in a party of a Beguiler, a Dread Necromancer, and a Binder?

In that party, probably ranged damage and UMD. There is value in being able to change your skills daily, though I agree that those three classes are stronger than Incarnate. Are you suggesting Incarnate is T5?

[Lans]

In that party, probably ranged damage and UMD. There is value in being able to change your skills daily, though I agree that those three classes are stronger than Incarnate. Are you suggesting Incarnate is T5?

Not cosi, but I feel like Incaranate is an easy 4. It can replicate different tier 5 set ups so it can eek into tier 4 on versitility

[Cosi]

In that party, probably ranged damage and UMD. There is value in being able to change your skills daily, though I agree that those three classes are stronger than Incarnate. Are you suggesting Incarnate is T5?

The Binder is better at ranged damage. Grab the vestiges that grant various types of "basically sneak attack", take some extra attack feats, and start hitting people with flasks. Especially nice given that the Beguiler is quite good at making people flat-footed.

The Beguiler is comparable at UMD. At 10th level, the Incarnate's mage's spectacles grant a +8 bonus while the Beguiler's skill ranks grant +13. The Incarnate could invest ranks in UMD, bringing her up to a +14 base, but the Beguiler likely has a higher CHA modifier.

Swapping around a variety of bad abilities is still pretty bad, especially in a party without much by way of divinations to figure out what they're looking for.

[Bucky]

Can Healers get Naga companions with specific spells known? Or are they stuck with whatever companions happen to be available?

[lylsyly]

Fighter - 5,4
Healer - 2,3
Hexblade - 4,5
Incarnate - 3,4
Jester - 4,3
Knight - 5,4

[Troacctid]

Having played Incarnates, I can say that they are very strong early, definitely fall off late, are very starved for skill points, can vary significantly based on alignment, and benefit a lot from multiclassing.

Basically, they're a lot like Binders, except with fewer skill points, and because you can pick your abilities a la carte instead of in packages, you lose some power in exchange for that flexibility. They're also a lot like Warlocks, but again, less power, more flexibility.

I still haven't figured out how to build a good single-class Incarnate. Either I'm dipping into a caster class and going Sapphire Hierarch/Soulcaster/Soul Manifester, or I'm dipping into an initiator class and going melee. It's not that the base class doesn't have good class features, it's that it takes so little effort to improve your abilities so much.

If you think Warlocks are T4, then you should definitely put Incarnates in T4. I think they're pretty close in power level. If you think Warlocks are T3, then you should probably put Incarnates in T3 as well, I guess?

Can Healers get Naga companions with specific spells known? Or are they stuck with whatever companions happen to be available?

DM discretion. I would expect to only have access to their default spells known list, and possibly the psionic variant in the case of the couatl. But that's still very good.

[Lans]

The Binder is better at ranged damage. Grab the vestiges that grant various types of "basically sneak attack", take some extra attack feats, and start hitting people with flasks. Especially nice given that the Beguiler is quite good at making people flat-footed.

The Beguiler is comparable at UMD. At 10th level, the Incarnate's mage's spectacles grant a +8 bonus while the Beguiler's skill ranks grant +13. The Incarnate could invest ranks in UMD, bringing her up to a +14 base, but the Beguiler likely has a higher CHA modifier.

Swapping around a variety of bad abilities is still pretty bad, especially in a party without much by way of divinations to figure out what they're looking for.

It should be +10 from mages spectacles, and +1 1 from lucky dice at level 10. The best thing they can do is at will suggestion and 1 zombie. Your point still stands on them not being tier 3

[Cosi]

Having played Incarnates, I can say that they are very strong early, definitely fall off late, are very starved for skill points, can vary significantly based on alignment, and benefit a lot from multiclassing.

Emphasis mine.

This seems like a good argument for having at least two different sets of rankings at different levels. I can certainly see the Incarnate being more useful at low levels where skills matter more.

It should be +10 from mages spectacles, and +1 1 from lucky dice at level 10. The best thing they can do is at will suggestion and 1 zombie. Your point still stands on them not being tier 3

Oh, right, I forgot they get a class bonus to essentia caps. That helps some.

I don't think "mind magic" and "necromancy" are what you want to show up with when there's already a Beguiler and a Dread Necromancer in the party. One zombie compares very poorly to the Dread Necromancer's horde.

[Troacctid]

Remember that a single-class Incarnate can swap out soulmelds as a full-round action a limited number of times per day, so if you find yourself in a position where you suddenly need a more niche soulmeld like Theft Gloves, you can just switch it in and rock it.

[Bucky]

DM discretion. I would expect to only have access to their default spells known list, and possibly the psionic variant in the case of the couatl. But that's still very good.

It's essentially the same sort of difference as a Dread Necro that can get whatever corpses he wishes vs. one that has to scavenge his combat encounters, but at a lower-tier power level. Sufficient minion flexibility might be able to bump the Healer up to tier 3 without Sanctified spells.

[Troacctid]

It's essentially the same sort of difference as a Dread Necro that can get whatever corpses he wishes vs. one that has to scavenge his combat encounters, but at a lower-tier power level. Sufficient minion flexibility might be able to bump the Healer up to tier 3 without Sanctified spells.

Remember, you don't need any help from the DM to change your lammasu's spells. It can swap them out itself, every morning.

[Lans]

Emphasis mine.

This seems like a good argument for having at least two different sets of rankings at different levels. I can certainly see the Incarnate being more useful at low levels where skills matter more.



Oh, right, I forgot they get a class bonus to essentia caps. That helps some.

I don't think "mind magic" and "necromancy" are what you want to show up with when there's already a Beguiler and a Dread Necromancer in the party. One zombie compares very poorly to the Dread Necromancer's horde.

That's why I feel they are more in line with an adept or binder(I think binders are tier 4 outside of the summoning vestige) at tier 4

[noce]

Fighter: 5
It's hard to think about a fighter as a pure class, I almost always take it as a 1 to 4 levels dip. And surely it's quite good as a noncaster dip.

A build with fighter as the only base class is decent if you then pick a prestige class, since you have an easier time qualifying for certain feat hungry PrCs.
Still, 2 feats in 2 levels is much better than 4 feats in 6 levels, and no melee PrC can be accessed before level 6, so you're either going to multiclass after 2-4 fighter levels, or continue to 6 and wait for the PrC until 7 which invalidates the point of early qualifying for PrCs (no, I do not consider 5 fighter levels an option).

All in all, fighter has a big weakness: mundane feats aren't going to make a difference in higher levels.
You can for example build a competent tripper, and he will be great at his shtick in early levels, but a simple M.I.C. item lets you stand up as swift action, totally negating your trick.

With more feats, you can just learn more tricks, that can be negated equally easily, so you're better off just doing an ubercharger, and the barbarian does it better.

Healer: 4,3
Spell list is utterly crappy, in my opinion, having only heals and status removing spells.
Its only buffs are Freedom of Movement, Death Ward and True Seeing.
It only has a single class feature not redundant with its spell list, a mount.

I see in-combat healing as a waste of time, and a dedicated healer as a waste of a teammate, my dedicated healer usually being a lesser vigor wand.

Then why T4? Full caster, so he can greatly improve his spell list in a myriad ways.

EDIT: I know its mount can be better than himself, but I don't feel like a lammasu (or any other pick) is going to make such a difference. You could take Leadership and bring along a real cleric, more competent and less squishy than your mount. If your mount dies, you're just a band-aid.

Hexblade: 5,4
Half caster, half caster levels, few spells known, few spells per day, late spell access, not impressive spell list, casting off CHA instead of the preferable INT, no noteworthy skill, bonus feats are from a limited non-combat list, debuff ability with very limited uses/day and crappy DC from a melee MAD class.

Hexblade is not a caster, it's not a meleer either, it's just the hexed cousin of the Duskblade.

Incarnate: 3,4
One of the best skillmonkeys among noncasters. He's amazingly good at it with a day advantage, good even without thanks to class features.
I'm putting it in T3 for its capability to contribute both out of combat and in combat (if choosing law or evil), despite low bab and lowish hit die.
If going chaotic or good alignment, the class drops to T4 since it becomes really un-synergistic combat-wise.

Jester: not voting, unfamiliar.

Knight: 5,4
Wacky.
No out of combat contribution, I at least expected Diplomacy as a skill list from a proper Knight.
In combat, the class has a role that can be easily worked around, mostly due to crappy DCs from a melee MAD class.
I see it as a focused fighter that trades most bonus feats for fixed class features.

I put it in 5,4 because, maybe, it could go up a tier if mount focused (for example with Wild Cohort). But I'm not sure he can.

[Troacctid]

Regarding the Hexblade—the class is quite bad. Significantly worse than Paladin. Significantly worse than the core-only Paladin. I don't know how everyone is ranking Paladin, but you should definitely not have Hexblade higher than it.

I guess Divine Mind is maybe a better comparison since we've already ranked it? Hexblade is worse than Divine Mind. Not miles worse—they're in a similar league, they're not far off from each other—but still clearly worse. I know there was some debate about whether Divine Minds land in T4 or T5, but if you thought they were T5, you should definitely be putting Hexblade in the same tier.

I think Hexblade is a solid T5.

That's why I feel they are more in line with an adept or binder(I think binders are tier 4 outside of the summoning vestige) at tier 4

Well if you think Binder-sans-Zceryll is T4, then you certainly can't put Incarnate in any other tier—they're way too close in power.

Healer: 4,3
Spell list is utterly crappy, in my opinion, having only heals and status removing spells.
Its only buffs are Freedom of Movement, Death Ward and True Seeing.
It only has a single class feature not redundant with its spell list, a mount.

I see in-combat healing as a waste of time, and a dedicated healer as a waste of a teammate, my dedicated healer usually being a lesser vigor wand.

Then why T4? Full caster, so he can greatly improve his spell list in a myriad ways.

Healers literally have every Cleric spell of 4th level or lower, and a ton of Sorcerer spells as well. They also get all of the Symbol spells at a lower level than anyone else, and can ignore the material components for them. This isn't even going into other splatbooks or anything that expends build resources. This is just native to the class.

[noce]

Healers literally have every Cleric spell of 4th level or lower, and a ton of Sorcerer spells as well. They also get all of the Symbol spells at a lower level than anyone else, and can ignore the material components for them. This isn't even going into other splatbooks or anything that expends build resources. This is just native to the class.

I edited my post to reflect this.

[Troacctid]

Well you also can't just say, "Oh, Healers have a crappy list, and the companion doesn't count." That's not really how tiers work. You kind of have to assume that the class has all of its class features. You wouldn't evaluate a Druid's power level by assuming a typical build will ignore wild shape completely and rely on Two-Weapon Fighting with scimitars as its default combat strategy. Right?