Community Tiering for all 3.5 Base Classes

[Karl Aegis]

Fighter - X
Most players would use those bonus feats to get to their trick quicker, but then what do you do with the rest of your feats? Conveniently enough, you could use those bonus feats to pick up all those feats literally everyone else is getting, and then use your normal feats for added utility stuff. You can go for some vile feats to pick up blindsense or additional reach or a decent bonus to intimidate. Remember kids, if you can't pick anything up with your blindsense, there is either nothing around you worth noting, or there is something around here killing everything off. Send in the trapfinder! Even dungeon floors have ants or something scavenging for food. Or you can go for aberrant feats for limited flight and additional reach. Maybe both, if you feel like worshiping an Elder Evil. Of course, you're probably evil or a freaky thingy if you go for either route.

Healer - 3X
With Sanctified spells you get a bunch of things you can do, enough to bring you up to tier 3 by themselves. Later, you can choose to get an ECL 10 Unicorn at level 8, or an ECL 12 Lammasu with 7th level cleric casting at level 12. The other choices are not bad, and there is a 6th level sanctified spell to pick up a Pegasus that you can ride around on with cross-class ride ranks (woo). Also comes with early access to a bunch of cool heals like 8th level Mass Heal for archivists that want to pick that up. Definitely falls to tier 6 if your character isn't Good.

Hexblade - 4
Late access to a bunch of tier 3 abilities seems good enough to get to tier 4. When you don't have your spells working for you, you still have a decent chassis with d10 hit points, full bab and a good will save (with mettle). Oh, and you get Stinking Cloud, Contact Other Plane, See Invisibility and Greater Magic Weapon, for what that's worth. Has the fairly unique ability to pick up a worg familiar and Improved Mounted Archery by level 6 if you pick up a bonus feat from somewhere, probably strongheart halfling or a flaw on a goblin. Good for thematic reason.

Incarnate - 3
It's going to take a while to dig through why this class is in this tier. Incarnum is a huge book and the abilities aren't separated by class. Expect an edit or a retiering by the time I finish refreshing my memory on what this class does. I know Planar Chausible Ward is good, and a bunch of builds rely on specific soulmelds to really take off and you really don't need to bind your Avatar to shape it early and throughout your career. In fact, if I recall correctly, your Avatar is your defining class feature and alters the class's playstyle significantly based on what alignment you are.

Edit in: Solid Tier 3. Many immunities, various forms of attack, pick and choose what abilities you want to be powerful at any given time. Solid options everywhere. Minor minionmancy and frickin laser beams if you want them.

Jester - Abstain
I see it's a Paizo class and I just assume it sucks. I don't see it being relevant enough in any game I would play to give it a rating.

Knight - 6
You get the same proficiencies and saves as an aristocrat with worse skills. A few points of to-hit on a single enemy a few times a day (that doesn't stack with a plethora of buffs) doesn't really differentiate you enough to warrant a tier shift. Bulwark of Defense is your only noteworthy class feature, but getting close enough to use it requires spending all your skill points on a mount or abandoning heavy armor entirely. It's like they tried to adapt
those knight prestige classes in Complete Warrior, but failed to give them the only worthwhile ability from those classes: AoE Temporary hit points.

[eggynack]

Fighter: 54. Pretty straightforward, I think. Some feat chains are alright, but it's hard to beat the value of more "true" class features. Add some ACFs and you might cross that boundary, but the lower power ones of those are still in a weird space, so I'ma make 5 the base rate.

Healer: 3. Sanctified spells are really good, in every sense of the word, and because healers can't be evil, every healer with access to BoeD and/or champions of valor will have access to them. It's not a massive list of spells, but it's surprisingly versatile, covering blasting, minionmancy, knowledge acquisition, buffing, and some arbitrary utility of other kinds too. It's enough that 9th level prepared casting with literally no spells on your list and no class features might be enough for high tier four, maybe even low tier three. It'd hurt that you can't heal yourself of ability damage though, so maybe not. But, fortunately, healers do have a list, one capable of, what else, healing ability damage. And everything else. Healer spells cover a lot of ground that sanctified spells natively don't, which is kinda weird given that they're both occupying this ultra-good space. None of that's even covering the unicorn companion, which is great at higher levels. I don't consider it nearly as much of a tier influencing feature as sanctified spells, owing largely to that high level thing, but it's really valuable when you get the higher end options. And, on top of all that, you can even technically cast corrupt spells if you want them. Ya gotta do it sparingly, because changing alignment is bad, but some of those spells are pretty useful.

Honestly, it's pretty surprising to me that some people are going as high as two on this one. Healers do not seem tier two to me. I don't think that's all that justifiable. They don't seem tier four either, but that's a bit more justifiable on the assumption that you might not be able to get sanctified spells for whatever reason. If you assume their presence though, we're talking about a list of spells that offer a bunch of utility to tier one casters. That's a big deal.

OI don't think I actually have Champions of Valor lying around anywhere. Are the sanctified spells in there worth looking at?

They're great. Only five of them, but definitely worth looking at. The best thing out of them is animate with the spirit, which is like a good only lesser planar ally which has the magic powers of that ally inhabit some corpse you select that can have a lot of melee strength if you want. The real standout on that account is the movanic deva, which offers a ton of utility. You also get celestial fortress, which is like secure shelter, vision of punishment, a swift action first level spell that can nauseate briefly (and even sickens if they make their save), benign projection, which is a project image that doesn't act as the conduit for all that many spells, but which can act as the conduit for visions of punishment, and create lantern archon, which does that, and then the lantern archon helps you out for about an hour.

I'ma leave it at that for now. I'll probably add some other classes later, after I have stronger opinions. I'm glad healer at five seems mostly out of the running.

Edit:

Healer (MHB): X42. Is it more likely that a healer will be exalted and using special uber-goody-goody spells from That One Book, or not? I don't know, given that this is 3.5 optimisation we're talking about. With these spells, the healer becomes able to call creatures to serve her every whim; without, she's stuck changing numbers in combat. Diplomacy on the skill list is okay, but not changing anything. The fact that your power is radically altered by your alignment?

Thought I'd address this with the basic argument that your power isn't radically altered by your alignment. Healers are good. They cannot be anything but good. Usually this'd be a downside, cause it's an alignment restriction, but here it's weirdly forcing every healer build to be extra optimized. And you don't need to be anything more than good to use sanctified spells either. This isn't like exalted feats, where taking them turns you into an exalted character, and you need to uphold a crazy standard. You don't even need to be good to use sanctified spells. Just non-evil. If you have the book(s), the spells are available to you. I don't think these spells get you to tier two though. It's just a more limited lesser planar ally, after all. Great spell, but not get you on the sorcerer's power level in one shot great. Not even get you on the favored soul's power level, cause they can get lesser planar ally too. Bonus unicorns and archer fellows don't make up for the rest of the gap, and neither do the solid but not sorcerer scale companion abilities.

[Karl Aegis]

I can see an hour of Lantern Archon help being useful. I was thinking they had some way of casting Aid and there it is. Pretty nifty.

[Troacctid]

The Jester is a worse version of a Bard. The question is, how much worse can you be and still be in the same tier?

Here is a comparison of the Jester vs. the core-only Bard.

Spoiler

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Skills

Lose	Gain
Appraise	Disable Device
Concentration (!)	Intimidate
Craft	Open Lock
Decipher Script	Search
Diplomacy
Knowledges (all except local and nobility)
Listen
Profession
Spellcraft
Swim

0-level spells

Lose	Gain	Retain
Ghost Sound	Create Water	Dancing Lights
Know Direction		Daze
Lullaby		Detect Magic
Message		Flare
Read Magic		Light
Resistance		Mage Hand
Summon Instrument		Mending
		Open/Close
		Prestidigitation

1st level spells

Lose	Gain	Retain
Alarm	Bane	Animate Rope
Comprehend Languages	Color Spray	Cause Fear
Confusion, Lesser	Command	Charm Person
Cure Light Wounds	Doom	Disguise Self
Detect Secret Doors	Entropic Shield	Expeditious Retreat
Erase	Jump	Feather Fall
Identify	Obscuring Mist	Grease
Magic Mouth	Reduce Person	Hideous Laughter
Obscure Object	Sanctuary	Hypnotism
Remove Fear	Shocking Grasp	Magic Aura
Summon Monster I		Silent Image
Undetectable Alignment		Sleep
		Unseen Servant
		Ventriloquism

2nd level spells

Lose	Gain	Retain
Animal Messenger	Darkvision	Alter Self
Animal Trance	Find Traps	Blur
Blindness/Deafness	Fog Cloud	Daze Monster
Calm Emotions	Levitate	Eagle's Splendor
Cat's Grace	Rope Trick	Enthrall
Cure Moderate Wounds	Spider Climb	Fox's Cunning
Darkness	Touch of Idiocy	Glitterdust
Delay Poison	Undetectable Alignment	Hypnotic Pattern
Detect Thoughts		Invisibility
Heroism		Minor Image
Locate Object		Mirror Image
Rage		Misdirection
Shatter		Pyrotechnics
Silence		Scare
Suggestion		Sound Burst
Summon Monster II
Summon Swarm
Tongues
Whispering Wind

3rd level spells

Lose	Gain	Retain
Blink	Bestow Curse	Confusion
Charm Monster	Rage	Crushing Despair
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance	Shrink Item	Displacement
Cure Serious Wounds	Stinking Cloud	Gaseous Form
Daylight	Suggestion	Haste
Deep Slumber	Tongues	Invisibility Sphere
Dispel Magic		Slow
Geas, Lesser
Glibness
Good Hope
Illusory Script
Major Image
Phantom Steed
Remove Curse
Scrying
Sculpt Sound
Secret Page
Sepia Snake Sigil
Speak with Animals
Summon Monster III
Tiny Hut

4th level spells

Lose	Gain	Retain
Break Enchantment	Bestow Curse (again)	Dimension Door
Cure Critical Wounds	Charm Monster	Freedom of Movement
Detect Scrying	Fear	Invisibility, Greater
Dominate Person	Minor Creation	Rainbow Pattern
Hallucinatory Terrain	Polymorph	Shout
Hold Monster	Reduce Person, Mass
Legend Lore
Locate Creature
Modify Memory
Neutralize Poison
Repel Vermin
Secure Shelter
Shadow Conjuration
Speak with Plants
Summon Monster IV
Zone of Silence

5th level spells

Lose	Gain	Retain
Cure Light Wounds, Mass	Break Enchantment	Mind Fog
Dispel Magic, Greater	Command, Greater	Persistent Image
Dream	Feeblemind	Seeming
False Vision	Hold Monster
Heroism, Greater
Mirage Arcana
Mislead
Nightmare
Shadow Evocation
Shadow Walk
Song of Discord
Suggestion, Mass
Summon Monster V

6th level spells

Lose	Gain	Retain
Analyze Dweomer	Ethereal Jaunt	Animate Objects
Cat's Grace, Mass	Insanity	Eagle's Splendor, Mass
Charm Monster, Mass	Mislead	Irresistible Dance
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass
Eyebite
Find the Path
Fox's Cunning, Mass
Geas/Quest
Heroes' Feast
Permanent Image
Programmed Image
Project Image
Scrying, Greater
Shout, Greater
Summon Monster VI
Sympathetic Vibration
Veil

You also lose the ability to cast in armor, and you replace bardic music with some jester performances that are pretty similar power-wise.

On the whole, the class is definitely worse than Bard. But I think it still has enough to be T3. You do actually get a few good spells back in exchange for the good spells you lose.

Of course I assume Karl Aegis will be putting it at T2, since it gets shrink item​ only one level after the Sorcerer.

[eggynack]

That jester list seems tier three to me, so I'ma vote 3 on them. First level spells are arguably better here, gaining color spray and keeping a lot of the good firsts of old like silent image, grease, and charm person. Second level spells aren't particularly worse either. You keep the most important spells, alter self, glitterdust, and invisibility, and you gain rope trick, which is nice. So far I could easily populate a list and have it comparable to a high op core bard list. Thirds are probably worse. Glibness has always been a highlight of the bard list, so losing it is bad, and dispel hurts too, but stinking cloud and, apparently, shrink item, are good additions, and haste and slow are nice to hang on to. Fourths are pretty close to better. Polymorph is amazing, and dimension door, freedom of movement, and greater invisibility, are all good. So, everything seems more or less on the level until you reach level 13, and at and beyond that point you're obviously behind. They're not the best bard spell levels to start with, but we're losing a bunch and not gaining much to compensate. Still, I think twelve levels of more or less bard followed by eight levels of not quite bard is tier three.

[Troacctid]

There are actually some really weird things going on with the Jester. I think it may be the only spellcaster without Concentration as a class skill? And I'm pretty sure it's the only spellcaster to have the same spell on its class spell list twice, at two different levels.

[AvatarVecna]

Spoiler: Fighter: 5/4

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A straight Fighter 20 that finds a good combat niche to fill (ubercharging, horizon tripper, Jack B Quick, dedicated archer) can probably be competent enough at that role to continue contributing into the high levels (albeit probably only due to lots of spell/item support, but that's kinda a given) well enough to break into low T4. A straight Fighter 20 who doesn't specialize enough or takes too many trap options isn't going to be good enough to contribute past...I'm gonna say maybe level 6, where casting starts picking up some serious tricks (really, casters starting picking them up at lvl 5, but lvl 6 is where the Fighter gets a bunch of things, so they remain vaguely useful at 6, but much less so at 7). Ultimately, a pile of bonus feats from a limited, role-focused list is not an acceptable replacement for real class features, although the variety of ACFs available both in hardcover splats and Dragon Mags gives the Fighter a lot more options to work with.

Spoiler: Healer: 3/X

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I have limited experience with this class, but my understanding from looking it over and seeing it discussed (both in this thread and many others) is that while its base list is...poorly hyperfocused, it has options for significantly expanding it, allowing it to contribute in a wide variety of situations. The little bonus of the potentially rockin' special mounts clinches it for me.

Spoiler: Hexblade: 5

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Like the Fighter, Hexblade makes a good small dip on the right build. Like the Fighter, it's pretty easy to build a straight Hexblade 20 that ends up being too terrible to really contribute to anything. Unlike the Fighter, you don't really have enough options to do anything about that lack of significant contribution. The spell list has a few gems, but because they're a 4/9 caster, those spells come online pretty late, and they don't get nearly enough slots to be useful. Adept isn't great, but at least it gets its limited spellcasting quicker. The fact that it's got a couple solid features early-on (Arcane Resistance, Mettle, and Familiar) and a solid chassis keeps it from getting left in the dust for a little while, but past maybe lvl 8 it's all downhill for the Hexblade.

I am not familiar enough with the class or the sub-system to judge the Incarnate.

Spoiler: Jester: 3/X

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Jester seems to be vaguely on-par with Core-only Bard; it loses a lot of class skills, and debuffs instead of buffs, but it seems mostly solid, so while it's worse, it's probably low-T3. With splat support, though, the Bard picks up a lot of stuff, to the point that the Jester is significantly worse; that said, the Bard going up in its tier doesn't make the Jester go down a tier, so it doesn't really deserve being put in T4.

Spoiler: Knight: 5

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I don't think this is terrible enough to warrant going down to T6, but it's still pretty terrible. Ultimately, the knight poorly-specializes at a thing that D&D doesn't like. If they could draw aggro effectively, this class could probably get bumped up to low-T4 as a dedicated tank class. As it stands, this is a Fighter who lacks the ability to actually contribute to fights. I don't think a good mount set-up can save this class either, although maybe if you stacked up enough mount-buffers you could get a super-mount that's capable enough...but I don't think it's fair giving the Knight credit for the super-mount's awesomeness, particularly when the Knight class contributes basically nothing to it. Combine all of this with a stricter Paladin Code with more focus on the Law than the Good, and you've got yourself a recipe for a terrible terrible class.

[Troacctid]

I guess I'll do them all real quick.

Already did Hexblade (T5) and Jester (T3).

Fighter without ACFs: 5
Fighter with ACFs: 4
The class is preeetty bad. It doesn't do much, and the feats don't pack a big punch. It's one of the best T5 classes, but I think it is T5. There are several ACFs that give it enough of a bump to catch up with the Barbarian, especially when combined—most notably Zhentarim substitutions, Hit and Run, and Thug.

Healer: 34
Healers have a range of levels where they're just reeeally bad. In the 1–4 tier, okay, they don't do much, but you do actually need healing a lot at those levels, so it's actually fine to specialize in it. Around 5–7, they really start to struggle, because healing isn't enough and they can't really do much else (although Sanctified spells help a bit). In the 8–11 range, they get a big power spike with the unicorn, and they get some of the better Sanctified spells like animate with the spirit, so they pick up a bit. And from 12 onward they're seriously legit good. Oh, and their skills are actually not bad. Anyway, they're good.

Incarnate: 34
It's one of the weaker T3s in my opinion, but I think it does end up being good enough overall.

Knight: 5
This is actually one of my benchmarks for T5.

[Nifft]

Fighter 5

Healer (MHB) 4X2 -- Gate is a stand-out.

Hexblade (CWr) 5

Incarnate (MoI) 3

Jester (DrC) --

Knight (PH2) 5

[eggynack]

Healers have a range of levels where they're just reeeally bad. In the 1–4 tier, okay, they don't do much, but you do actually need healing a lot at those levels, so it's actually fine to specialize in it. Around 5–7, they really start to struggle, because healing isn't enough and they can't really do much else (although Sanctified spells help a bit).

Vision of punishment is, well, it's not great early, but it's not worthless either. Luminous armor is helpful too, especially in a good party. I think level five is actually the break point where they're starting to do alright, assuming sanctified. Hammer of righteousness is solid blasting, celestial aspect is just plain good on a weaker list (because this is just how you fly and enable others to fly, and the other buffs are decent if not life altering), brilliant emanation is an alright debuff, create lantern archon has some odd utility, and phieran's resolve, telepathy tap, and path of the exalted are... spells. Path isn't the worst, but it's iffy, basically just acting as an, "Ask your DM for help," spell. My point here is that sanctified spells help more than a bit in this level range. They're probably enough to make you act like a high tier four at this pair of levels, before you become a lot stronger at level seven (which, not sure why 7 was part of your listed struggling range).

Oh, and this is the level where six corrupt spells come online, so if we're having those be part of the conversation then things get pretty interesting. Not super interesting, because these spells aren't generally as good as sanctified spells, and also because even a permissive view would only allow rare castings, but you're definitely upping your direct action game.

I have limited experience with this class, but my understanding from looking it over and seeing it discussed (both in this thread and many others) is that while its base list is...poorly hyperfocused, it has options for significantly expanding it, allowing it to contribute in a wide variety of situations. ]

To be precise, healers don't technically expand their list. It's not like a beguiler where you see spells elsewhere, you take a feat, and the spells are yours. The healer list is sufficiently expanded out of the box, based on sanctified spells. Having access to the relevant books is sufficient. It's sorta list expansion in the sense that a wizard getting access to the spell compendium is list expansion.

Gate is a stand-out.

Not really. I mean, yes, it's an excellent spell when you get it, but the healer list has a ton of gems, owing primarily to sanctified spells. Animate with the spirit for a movanic deva, granting access to a cornucopia of spell-likes is the true standout, but you get a ton of stuff across most levels. Take those spells I mentioned above, with regard to third level spells, and add in stuff like inquisition, which is sorta like the fixed zone of truth (fixed positive style, if at a higher spell level), valiant steed and cry of ysgard for nigh on permanent minions, constricting chains for high end debuffing, celestial fortress for overnight protection, benign projection for illusion shenanigans, along with a variety of other cool stuff, and the healer is acting less like the crap class that happens to get gate at the end as is frequently claimed, and more like a pile of awesome spells followed up by gate. And then, if those sanctified spells weren't enough, they get even more awesome at level 12, with the lammasu letting them act as a full fledged 7th level cleric in addition to their other stuff, and then they get a possible upgrade at 16 too with the couatl companion.

I'd lose gate to gain a surprisingly small percentage of that stuff, if we're considering this from a tier perspective.

[BaronDoctor]

Fighter: X45
A focused Fighter can generally find a shtick and compete with the Barbarian for combat effectiveness. A poorly built Fighter flails around. It has no class features, it has a decent combat chassis. What more to say?

Healer: 3X
Well, let's see. In-combat healing is generally ineffective. Sanctified spells and recommended spell compendium goodies are great. Even without them, though, the Healer doesn't focus on hit point healing. They get anti-battlefield-control spells right around when battlefield controls come online. Oh, and the companion works pretty nicely too. Nothing that shatters the game, but an effective participant.

Hexblade: 5
It's like they decided the core paladin needed a nerfed edgy arcane cousin.

Incarnate: Pass.
Don't know it.

Jester: Pass
Haven't seen one played.

Knight: 5
Where does this thing excel? Uh. Nowhere.

[Lans]

[

Spoiler: Hexblade: 5

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Like the Fighter, Hexblade makes a good small dip on the right build. Like the Fighter, it's pretty easy to build a straight Hexblade 20 that ends up being too terrible to really contribute to anything. Unlike the Fighter, you don't really have enough options to do anything about that lack of significant contribution. The spell list has a few gems, but because they're a 4/9 caster, those spells come online pretty late, and they don't get nearly enough slots to be useful. Adept isn't great, but at least it gets its limited spellcasting quicker. The fact that it's got a couple solid features early-on (Arcane Resistance, Mettle, and Familiar) and a solid chassis keeps it from getting left in the dust for a little while, but past maybe lvl 8 it's all downhill for the Hexblade.

Regarding the Hexblade—the class is quite bad. Significantly worse than Paladin. Significantly worse than the core-only Paladin. I don't know how everyone is ranking Paladin, but you should definitely not have Hexblade higher than it.



I think Hexblade is a solid T5.

You might want to take a closer look at the hexblades spell list, it gets solid options at every spell level. Alter self being the real stand out, but it also gets spells like charm person, dimension door, stinking clouse, pyrotechnics, invisibility etc. The only advantage the paladin might really have is the mount, and the hexblade can use a spell to cover that.

[Troacctid]

You might want to take a closer look at the hexblades spell list, it gets solid options at every spell level. Alter self being the real stand out, but it also gets spells like charm person, dimension door, stinking clouse, pyrotechnics, invisibility etc. The only advantage the paladin might really have is the mount, and the hexblade can use a spell to cover that.

It gets them way too late, at half caster level, and with too few spell slots. Stinking cloud is good at 5th level, not so good at 12th level. And you know who else has invisibility and dimension door? Monks. Just saying.

And don't knock the special mount, it's the Paladin's most powerful ability.

[AvatarVecna]

You might want to take a closer look at the hexblades spell list, it gets solid options at every spell level. Alter self being the real stand out, but it also gets spells like charm person, dimension door, stinking clouse, pyrotechnics, invisibility etc. The only advantage the paladin might really have is the mount, and the hexblade can use a spell to cover that.

Hexblade

Like the Fighter, Hexblade makes a good small dip on the right build. Like the Fighter, it's pretty easy to build a straight Hexblade 20 that ends up being too terrible to really contribute to anything. Unlike the Fighter, you don't really have enough options to do anything about that lack of significant contribution. The spell list has a few gems, but because they're a 4/9 caster, those spells come online pretty late, and they don't get nearly enough slots to be useful. Adept isn't great, but at least it gets its limited spellcasting quicker. The fact that it's got a couple solid features early-on (Arcane Resistance, Mettle, and Familiar) and a solid chassis keeps it from getting left in the dust for a little while, but past maybe lvl 8 it's all downhill for the Hexblade.

I'm aware there's decent spells on there, the problem is literally every other limited aspect of the Hexblade's spellcasting mechanics.

[noce]

You might want to take a closer look at the hexblades spell list, it gets solid options at every spell level.

Let's say 18 CHA, and I'm generous here. I don't think a hexblade usually starts with more than 16 CHA.
You have a single 1st level spell slot at 4, and you get a second at 6.
You have a single 2st level spell slot at 8, and you get a second at 10.
You have a single 3st level spell slot at 11, and you get a second at 12.
You have a single 4st level spell slot at 14, and you get a second at 15.

As you can see, you can do things a wizard 6 levels below you can do more often, and probably with better DCs.
I think 6 levels late is late enough to not count anymore.
In addition, most spells you list have a save and/or duration, I doubt you're going to put them to good use with half caster levels, late access and multiple attributes dependancy.

[eggynack]

Looking through it, hexblade at 5 does seem to make sense. This is about as bad as you can be at spellcasting, while still mostly relying on that casting for your effectiveness. You definitely don't seem as good at it as an adept, which prepares its spells and gets said spells faster, and that class was borderline to start with. So we'd be getting equality here through mediocre fighting ability and class features? It doesn't seem all that plausible. The hexblade list isn't even significantly better, assuming you're getting the spells with the same progression. It has advantages, but not major ones. That the hexblade is so many levels behind a wizard is interesting, but it leaves the hexblade a lot of tier room because wizards are so good. That the hexblade gets polymorph two levels after the adept strikes me as a lot more telling.

Edit: Notably, I don't think six levels behind is necessarily enough to not count on its own. An interesting case along these lines is the sword of the arcane order paladin, which I'd argue is at least tier four. A big difference is akin to the difference provided by the factotum, which is that spell preparation off of a large list has some real intrinsic power. The ability to cast all these between adventures spells and effectiveness building spells is important. Hexblades and paladins alike have scrying on their list, but the lack of spells known means the paladin is always going to have the spell once you hit that level, while hexblades I would expect to rarely get that access. The arcane oriented paladin isn't great, but there's power there that I don't think the hexblade has.

[Nifft]

Not really. I mean, yes

Actually just "yes".

It really is a stand out, and it had not yet been mentioned in the thread.

The "X2" is due to Sanctified, of course, but that had already been discussed and I'm not repeating that.

[javcs]

Fighter - 5 - Pretty stereotypical T5 class. Most fighter/combat feats are feat taxes to do things that shouldn't have feat taxes, or if one must have a feat tax, it should auto-scale with level - of course, none of them really scale with level. Reasonably good as a dip for prereqs.

Healer - Lower 4, without Sanctified spells, largely on the back of the companion; without taking extensive advantage of the companion, drops to a 5. Until 17th, and Gate shenanigans. Pretty solid at Epic, with Epic Spellcasting running off of both Knowledge(nature) and Knowledge(religion) and divine spellcasting, and both being class skills and 4 base skill points, but that's, well, Epic, and probably shouldn't count. Sanctifieds probably bump to a solid 3.
Can't think of any game where I'd want to play one, with or without Sanctified spells ... at least, I can't think of a circumstance where I'd want to play in a game where playing a Healer was an attractive option. Might be okay as one side as part of a Gestalt game, maybe.

Hexblade - lower 4 - Being a half-caster isn't great, but the spell list has some decent spells on it, even if access is late and limited to 5 spells per spell level, and very few spells/day. Some Decent ACF support, and, IIRC, one of the few non-core classes that gets any spell list expansion in external splats. Better spell list than the Duskblade, but a much less friendly casting progression - honestly, it might be better to just stick the two of them into a blender, and give them their entire list as spells known, then you'd have a reasonably well-rounded class and spell list. A rather unfortunate amount of MAD, though.

Incarnate - 3 with familiarity with the Incarnum subsystem and soulmelds, probably a moderate 4 without. Since you can change out soulmelds daily ... it's not too hard to figure out a set of soulmelds that works reasonably well, even if it's not perfect, via trial and error.

Jester - lower 3 - Core Bard knock-off.

Knight - 5 - Depressingly underwhelming for what should have been a whole lot more interesting. The good Will save isn't bad, though ... but honestly, I'd rather go Fighter or Paladin.

[Bucky]

@javcs - remember to indicate your actual vote for Healer and Incarnate. Note that you can vote for more than one tier in preference order (e.g. 43)

[flare'90]

Fighter: 54. We all know the fighter. The chassis (d10 HD, good Fort, full BAB, 2+Int skill points) is the basic one for fighter types and the skills are few and for the most part not great. The class features are, simply, lazy: one bonus feat from a list at 1st level and one extra for every even level. Just by itself the class is boring and underwhelming and falls squarely in Tier 5. That said, the fighter can be made more effective if a bit of effort is put into optimization: both the Dungeoncrasher ACF and the Zhentarim fighter substitution levels raise the power of the fighter to be more in line with a low Tier 4, and the Targeteer variant has access to a few nice abilities for an archer.

Healer (MHB): 34. No introduction needed for this class. It's most similar to the cleric (d8 HD, good Fort/Will, 1/2 BAB, 4+Int skill points) with a bit more skills and a way worse spell list. The class features are centered on healing both thit points and various conditions, including a free 1/day greater restoration at 10th and a 1/week true resurrection at 20th. The most useful feature is the Unicorn companion at 8th level, not only for the unicorn itself (which is not bad when first acquired) but for the ability to exchange the unicron for a lammasu (a beefier cleric 7), a gynosphinx (free 1/week symbol spell) or a water naga (sorcerer 7, but acquatic only) at 12th level, and an androsphinx (strong melee fighter + cleric 6) or a couatl (sorcerer 9 with (Su) ethereal jaunt and telepathy. Check witht the DM if it's possible to take a psionic one, they get 2/day plane shift) at level 16.
In addition to this the healer is a prepared divine caster, which means that they get access to both sanctified and corrupt spells (yeah, healers don't have the alignment restriction on spells like other divine casters, despite being good-only.). Corrupt spells aren't generally good, but sanctified spells give access to a lot of effects that are otherwise out of reach for the healer and improve a lot the healer's flexibility and power. The healer also get in-class ability healing, so fueling sanctified spells is easy. For those reasons I think that the healer can play in line with Tier 3, but a restricted spell access can bring the to Tier 4 or even lower.

Hexblade (CWr): 5. The first gish-in-a-can class from Wizards, the hexblade is also the least successful. A fighter-like chassis (d10 HD, good Will, full BAB, 2+Int skill points) and a small skill list are an early warning that the class isn't good. The spells they get are few in number, both know and to cast, and they cast based on Charisma, further adding to the typical mundane MAD. The spell list has some good spells (glitterdust, alter self, slow, plymorph,...) but they come late (glitterdust is good at 3rd level, not much at 8th) and in such a small number that they might as well not bother. The class features aren't bad (mettle, +Cha to saves on spells), but the major ones are limited in uses/day and key off Charisma, which again is not the first priority for a fighter. They get also a pitiful amount of support (a good ACF in Player's Handobook II and 2 spells in Dragon Magic) outside Complete Warrior. While they might make for a decent debuffer with the right build, I'd still put the class in Tier 5.

Incarnate (MoI): 34. The first Incarnum class, the incarnate gets a strange chassis (d6 HD, good Fort/Will, 1/2 BAB, 2+Int skill points) and a small skill list. They get the highest amount of essentia and the fastest chakra progression of the Incarnum classes, and their class features all revovle around their alignment and the use of soulmelds. Amongst the Incarnum classes theincarnate has access to the greater collection of soulmelds. The incarnate soulmelds mostly give bonuses to various skill and scale with the essentia invested in them, but a number of soulmelds also give bonuses to melee attacks. This makes the incarnate a customizable melee fighter and skill user, but they're limited round-to round by their daily soulmeld loadout. Fortunately the incarnate can swap some unbound soulmelds a small number of times per day, making them a little more flexible. The class fits in the lower Tier 3, since its flexibility is well suited to cover many roles in a party. A case can be made for Tier 4 as well, as an incarnate with a bad soulmeld allocation can find themselves struggling in contributing to the party's effort.

Jester (DrC): 3. At a first glance the jester look very much like a bard variant. The chassis (d6 HD, good Ref/Will, 3/4 BAB, 6+Int skill points) is the same but the skill list shows some difference: they lose most knowledge skills for Search, Disable Device and Open Lock and exchange Diplomacy for Intimidate. Weirdly enough for a caster they lose Spellcraft and Concentration(!). The main class feature, the jester's performance, works similar to the bardic song, requiring a number of point in Perform (comedy) to unlock higher level abilities. The performances themselves are unlike those of a bard: fascinate is common to both, but the other performances are mostly single-target and aimed to the jester's enemies rather than their allies. In general the performances act to weaken the jester's enemies, both restricting their actions and reducing their bonuses. The jester's spell list is again similar to the bard one, but again they lose quite a bit of the support spells to gain some limited offensive punch. All considered the class is weaker than the bard and does not enjoy the same support out of core, but it still fits Tier 3.

Knight (PH2): . Yet another fighter-type, the knight (d12 HD, good Will, full BAB, 2+Int skill points) is an attempt to make a focused tank class. The knight sports a small skill list, more for flavour than anything useful, and a good amount of class feature that focus on defense. The main class feature, the knight's challenge, is based on Charisma. The main uses of this feature are centered on giving the allies save rerolls against fear and min-affecting, on drawing aggro from enemies and to not die even at -10hp. The other class features reinforce the defensive element of the class, granting bonuses when using shields and heavy armor and hindering the actions of the enemies. While the knight is intended as a tank class it is difficult for them to succeed in their endeavor, since the knight does not present an active menace to target but rather tries to paint itself as a target. Combined with the inflexibilty of the knight's code and the lack of options outside of combat, the class falls in Tier 5 in my opinion.

[eggynack]

Actually just "yes".

It really is a stand out, and it had not yet been mentioned in the thread.

The "X2" is due to Sanctified, of course, but that had already been discussed and I'm not repeating that.

The 4X2 rating seemed weird with sanctified spells considered, is all. They're not really a tier two ability, and neither are they particularly a tier four ability.

[Lans]

It gets them way too late, at half caster level, and with too few spell slots. Stinking cloud is good at 5th level, not so good at 12th level. And you know who else has invisibility and dimension door? Monks. Just saying.

And don't knock the special mount, it's the Paladin's most powerful ability.

Honestly, I think a good portion of why they should be tier 4 rests on Alterself. It lasts long enough to be a reliable buff in combat, even for hexblades. The modes of movement, skills, and natural armor that it gives is basically versatility in a can. Most importantly, it comes early enough that a hexblade can have it for half of its career.

I have trouble thinking of the hexblade as comparabe to a barbarian or adept or better than a dragon shaman until 8th level comes a long. Then I feel they become a definite tier 4.

Let's say 18 CHA, and I'm generous here. I don't think a hexblade usually starts with more than 16 CHA.
You have a single 1st level spell slot at 4, and you get a second at 6.
You have a single 2st level spell slot at 8, and you get a second at 10.
You have a single 3st level spell slot at 11, and you get a second at 12.
You have a single 4st level spell slot at 14, and you get a second at 15.

As you can see, you can do things a wizard 6 levels below you can do more often, and probably with better DCs.
I think 6 levels late is late enough to not count anymore.
In addition, most spells you list have a save and/or duration, I doubt you're going to put them to good use with half caster levels, late access and multiple attributes dependancy.

Depends on the spell, spells like alterself, resist and protection from energy, dimension door and solid fog care less about the caster level.

I thought spells like stinking cloud and glitterdust would of been more useful, but looking at the saves of monsters it would take a dedicated spell casting stat for it to be so. Which I don't think a hexblade can afford.

[Pleh]

Fighter X doesn't make sense to me. Can someone explain it to me?

Going with definition of X means "truenamer levels of tier variance (essentially 1 to 6 based on option selection)".

How does fighter get built to rank above 3 or 4? I think it needs that ability to play up that high to be considered an X tier. Just having room to breathe between 4, 5, and 6 doesn't seem to mean TX

[OldTrees1]

Fighter X doesn't make sense to me. Can someone explain it to me?

Going with definition of X means "truenamer levels of tier variance (essentially 1 to 6 based on option selection)".

How does fighter get built to rank above 3 or 4? I think it needs that ability to play up that high to be considered an X tier. Just having room to breathe between 4, 5, and 6 doesn't seem to mean TX

I can see Fighters built up to Tier 3 so that is a 3 tier range for 1 class. I don't think a ranking of Tier 3-5 deserves a ranking of Tier X. However how wide of a tier range does deserve a Tier X? Is 4 tiers enough? 5? 6? 9?

[Lans]

Fighter Tier 5 slightly worse than barbarian
Healer High 4, would be a three if it got its companions 2 levels earlier
Hexblade Low 4 mostly due to Alterself
Incarnate High 4 it can cover a variety of aspects, but its ability to do so competently fades with level.
Jester Tier 3 its basically a bard

knight Tier 5 A lot like a barbarian, but with 2 less skill points a level. Its fighting challenge+shield block is pretty comparable to rage, its armor mastery is analogous to the fast movement. If it had 2 more skill points or if its abilities were intelligence based I would put it in tier 4

[Troacctid]

I can see Fighters built up to Tier 3 so that is a 3 tier range for 1 class. I don't think a ranking of Tier 3-5 deserves a ranking of Tier X. However how wide of a tier range does deserve a Tier X? Is 4 tiers enough? 5? 6? 9?

I think Wilder might have enough variance for X, but I haven't decided. I might just put them in 3 since that's more or less where their overall power level tends to land.

[Hurnn]

Fighter 4,5

Tons of options and splat support can be built to be insanely good at smashing things, with the right acf's you actually get some class features and skills. Not a class you ride 1-20. I know people will mock me but I like fighter, that said it is still only a class I would build 1-6 tops before jumping into at least 1 level of barbarian and/or a prc.

Healer (MHB) 3,2,4

I am being conservative and some people have said T4 and lower. Those people have just not done their homework.

Lets start with spells. The list is small and you lose out on splat support by raw, however if you can't talk your DM into letting you expand it to cover everything with the (healing) sub-school you have the charisma of a rock and not "The Rock". You can add to it with feats and PrCs but it's not as easy as it is for the arcane guys.

Now onto the list, short and boring for the most part but has some quality options that are useful outside of changing HP numbers. At 0 detect magic is always handy. 1st bless water and speak with animals. 2nd calm emotions. 4th freedom of movement, 5th true seeing. 6th Heal one of the combat heals worth doing and has great offensive potential against undead, who are not exactly known for their high hp. 7th repulsion, 8th discern location, and holy aura, 9th Gate, and foresight.

Speaking of spell lists lets not forget in the right encounters you are a damage machine, undead just curl up and re-die.

Your class abilities pretty much all amount to free spells, but free spells are free spells and you don't need the material components.

Now onto the class ability that doesn't amount to "a" free spell the companion. This thing rocks. They will never be the combat monsters a druid companion will be, at least with raw numbers, but that's ok.

Starting with unicorn. Free constant circle vs evil, and can throw out a few heals which if you absolutely have to heal someone to keep them from dying, you can do it and not waste your action. It is large ride-able creature with a high movement, has a fist full of immunities, and decent stats.

As great as that is you are trading it in at 12th. The lammasu is everything the unicorn was but better. It is a decent combatant, it is a pouncer. It is still large and ride-able, and it flies. flying is a big mobility buff for you and is really going to be pertinent for it in combat at these levels. It is a good scout with flying and greater invisibility. It can me useful in social situations. 1 a day dimension door if things go sideways that ends it's turn not yours if you are riding it. On top of all that it is a 7th level cleric for casting spells, as in it can cast every 4th level or below cleric spell.

But maybe you you don't care about the mount. That's ok lets meet contestant #2. It's large, it's an aberration, it's a water naga. 7th level sorcerer casting with 18 base 1st-3rd slots and casting up to 3rd level spells. Your spells known list is short so you have to pick carefully, and your DM could hose you here by piking for you and poorly, if this happens the lammasu doesn't hold a grudge just switch back.

We do save the best for last. At 16th once again there is really no reason not to trade in because while the new companion lacks the combat power of the lammasu it makes up for it in every other way.

Ladies and gentlemen the Couatl.

Large, flies 60 and good, is shockingly good in social situations, has UMD as a class skill, and casts as a 9th level sorcerer with 25 1st-4th slots; but wait there is more it can pick form sorcerer or cleric spells and the air law and good domains. Now for the good stuff. Detect thoughts invisibility, and planeshift at will. It has telepathy so now you don't need to worry if and speaks ancient yuan ti to ask that mummy a question because it does it for you. Scouting/spying it has you covered. At will invisibility, at will ethereal jaunt and shape-shifting into humanoid form, only the most secure locations can keep it out.

It feels like a let down to talk about skills here, but they aren't bad and you get 4 per level, you can also afford to go a few points into int because it is a pretty SAD class.

As someone said earlier you aren't sexy early but your job has to be done and you do it great, in the middle you get super action economy and are throwing around a lot of spells and abilities. Late you have a crazy powerful companion, 2 of the best divinations and oh yes gate.


Hexblade (CWr) 5,4

Bad arcane paladin.

Incarnate (MoI) 3,4
Not super familiar, looks to be a decent skill monkey, ok combatant and has huge versatility.

Jester (DrC) 3

At least as good as a bard early, fall off a bit late, but not enough to drop a tier.

Knight (PH2) 5,6,4
So WotC listened to the "fighters have no class abilities" complaints and though lets give them abilities that hardly work do next to nothing make the class super MAD, that will make them better. Oh also no splat support. Better than aristocrat who I had on the bubble for T5 so...

[Aimeryan]

Regarding the Healer, I am not sure whether all of that would be covered by average optimisation, Hurnn. You are having to do a lot of choosing. I think I agree with it all, the question is, would the average player do that? Not the average GitP player, either.

[Troacctid]

Regarding the Healer, I am not sure whether all of that would be covered by average optimisation, Hurnn. You are having to do a lot of choosing. I think I agree with it all, the question is, would the average player do that? Not the average GitP player, either.

The only way to NOT do it is to not be a Healer. Every Healer has access to those things. You don't need any feats, you don't need any special optimization—you just need to have enough levels of Healer, and you'll have everything Hurnn just listed. It's pretty foolproof.

[eggynack]

I really question the notion that healers can get to tier three without sanctified spells. You get really cool stuff, but you wind up with like half your levels quite good, and half of them pretty mediocre, and splitting the difference gets you around four. With sanctified spells, definite three, but a massive evaluation like that that doesn't include those and still has them at least three seems weird. I even more question the notion that two or one is possible at all, sanctified spells or not. The healer isn't a wizard or cleric, ever. They're very likely not a sorcerer or favored soul.