Elder Scrolls XII: Twelve Worlds of Creation

[LibraryOgre]

Welcome, one and all, to the twelfth thread for us to discuss, debate, and rag on our favorite series of Bethesda RPGs!

An explanation of the title.

Previous threads:

• Who's excited for Skyrim?
• Skyrim II: A Dragon A Day Keeps The Draugr At Bay.
• Skyrim III: Get rich selling protective knee gear!
• Skyrim IV: Oblivion
• Skyrim V: Skyrim
• Skyrim Thread VI: Dov Riders, AWAY!
• The Elder Scrolls VII: Do you believe in mod?
• The Elder Scrolls: By the VIII Divines
• It's the IX Divines You milk drinker!
• The Elder Scrolls X: Thalmor Or Less
• Wouldn't Want to Be Elsweyer

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Have at it!

[Triaxx]

I am slightly annoyed that my preferred alternate start seems to make Skyrim crash. Random Alternate Start, for those interested. It even has custom gear, but when you uninstall it, it removes those.

[The Great Wyrm]

Mmm, that new thread smell.

Is the crashing a known problem? Can you give us some more information about your computer?

[LibraryOgre]

Wife just told me that the internet is working at our new house. I'm going to fire up my old desktop, since my laptop **** the bed. I will be able to play things soon!

[Triaxx]

Ah, well... There's the problem. I've got a mod from 2012, instead of the reborn one which is the author updating from the previous one and fixing a bunch of issues. Figures I'd have the wrong one. :D

[gooddragon1]

Spoiler

Show

She's really skilled with magic if she can recline that far out in her throne.

Also, the Silver-Blood Inn is really high tech. They've even got the Kleppr to turn lights on and off.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Since we're officially in this thread now, am I the only one who thinks that the twelve worlds of Creation were twelve previous kalpas? If I am alone in that, what do you think they were?

Wife just told me that the internet is working at our new house. I'm going to fire up my old desktop, since my laptop **** the bed. I will be able to play things soon!

Congrats!

[DigoDragon]

She's really skilled with magic if she can recline that far out in her throne.

What the... well that's a new one. o.o

[VoxRationis]

My girlfriend got me the special edition of Skyrim for Christmas, and we've both been playing it. I've been exploring the Dawnguard campaign, since I've already done most of the original game, excepting the Dark Brotherhood, because I hate the Dark Brotherhood. My thoughts on this include: that Serana is a fun character and all, and I like having a follower with actual lines of dialogue, but it made little sense for my Dawnguard-aligned character to not just kill her immediately (or even to unseal her tomb, since I had no way of knowing that that wasn't a ritual circle which would destroy the world); that Sunfire is a wonderful spell and should have been in the base game; that Dawnbreaker is a must-have for the Dawnguard campaign, and I love every moment of using it (I tend to shout things like "Behold the purity of Meridia's light!" at the TV); and that the Keepers in the Soul Cairn (the furthest I have progressed thus far) are not as tough as they were cracked up to be. Serana tanked using Vampiric Drain while I tore them apart with arrow fire.

[factotum]

that Serana is a fun character and all, and I like having a follower with actual lines of dialogue, but it made little sense for my Dawnguard-aligned character to not just kill her immediately (or even to unseal her tomb, since I had no way of knowing that that wasn't a ritual circle which would destroy the world)

Your character not having any obvious justification for following the plot is a general Bethsoft issue. I mean, think about it--as far as we know you've recently arrived in Skyrim at the beginning of the game, and, in order, you get captured by the Imperials for no readily apparent reason, laid down on a chopping block and nearly decapitated, and then attacked by a freakin' *dragon*. Anyone with an ounce of sense at this point would be high-tailing it out of Skyrim and not looking back!

At least the Dragonborn plotline gives you the justification that you're trying to track down the person who's tried to kill you...

[gooddragon1]

I almost wish I didn't instakill things. I'd change the boss music for the dragon encounters to things like:

Keep On Loving You - REO Speedwagon
Arms Wide Open - Creed
Rikki Don't Lose That Number - Steely Dan

[Spore]

Your character not having any obvious justification for following the plot is a general Bethsoft issue. I mean, think about it--as far as we know you've recently arrived in Skyrim at the beginning of the game, and, in order, you get captured by the Imperials for no readily apparent reason, laid down on a chopping block and nearly decapitated, and then attacked by a freakin' *dragon*. Anyone with an ounce of sense at this point would be high-tailing it out of Skyrim and not looking back!

At least the Dragonborn plotline gives you the justification that you're trying to track down the person who's tried to kill you...

I think the games assume that you want to be the hero and not just another citizen of Skyrim. As for Serana: I had those Vampiricide ideas with my Redguard Vampire Hunter as well but in the Dawnguard story just makes sense. Sure, you are aligning yourself with a creature of the night who could betray you while you sleep (because you cannot simply walk around for half a year flat because you deem the rested bonus unnecessary). But there are enough reasons to keep her around.

She has a genuine desire to kill her father who put her in this miserable state. She wants to avenge her mother. Due to the one companion limit you cannot have someone watch her while you sleep but if you time the Dawnguard jobs correctly you don't have to sleep with her by your side. Or you could go the dedicated route of doing the Companions first and contracting Lycanthropy. I hear making a Werewolf angry is NOT healthy for any vampire.

[factotum]

None of those reasons come to light until you've known her for a while, though. Remember, in this plotline you're a vampire hunter--it's your job, probably even your *calling*, to hunt down and kill vampires. Why don't you stake Serana when you open her crypt for the first time? Why is your first reaction to actually follow along with her plan to return her to her father, rather than at least taking her back to Fort Dawnguard for interrogation? Why, when you get back from your very first mission for the Dawnguard having released an ancient vampire (carrying an Elder Scroll, no less) does Istvan not gut you on the spot, or at the very least kick you out of the Order for not following their edicts?

It's lazy plotting to force your character along a path that makes little sense purely on the assumption that you'll go through with it in order to see the DLC content--Nuka-World from Fallout 4 suffers from the same issue, since your only choice if you want to see all the DLC has to offer is to throw your lot in with the Nuka-World raiders, regardless of whether that makes sense for your character or not.

[Triaxx]

The first time, I actually attacked her the moment she appeared, because I assumed it was a boss fight. Like those Draugr coffins where you can smash them before they're fully awake.

[LibraryOgre]

So, thinking about the thread of Dawnguard.... what would happen if you DID kill her outright? Like, would the story move forward at all?

[Aeson]

One could argue that Serana is using the TES version of vampiric domination on you and the members of the Dawnguard. I don't think it's a very good justification for why things play out the way they do, mind you, but it would provide some justification and isn't completely without basis in the background material within the games or in how player character vampires work.

[DigoDragon]

So, thinking about the thread of Dawnguard.... what would happen if you DID kill her outright? Like, would the story move forward at all?

It can, you just need to get the information about Harkon's plot from someone else. Maybe interrogate a few vampires who know of what's going on.

[Winter_Wolf]

The first time, I actually attacked her the moment she appeared, because I assumed it was a boss fight. Like those Draugr coffins where you can smash them before they're fully awake.

I did that too. I mean really, you've been explicitly told whatever is in there has been there for a long time undisturbed and when you get the thing open, the contents are still fresh. And then they start to move.

So, thinking about the thread of Dawnguard.... what would happen if you DID kill her outright? Like, would the story move forward at all?

CAN you kill her? I've never been able to, though I understand there are mods to allow it.

I've seen it posited that DB doesn't kill Serana because the very first thing she does upon opening her eyes is some kind of vampire Jedi mind trick. Good a justification as any, I guess. It surprises me that any other members of the Dawnguard don't try to stake her on sight, but then again maybe she's supposed to be powerful enough to do the whammy instinctively and before her vampire identity can be ascertained.

[Triaxx]

I don't know though, because when you come back, Isran explicitly mentions your vampire friend.

[LibraryOgre]

CAN you kill her? I've never been able to, though I understand there are mods to allow it.

To my knowledge, no. I was just talking about ripping off her plot armor and what would happen if a DM tried to pull that in Tabletop.

[Triaxx]

If they got caught at it, we always made them pay for the snacks the following session.

[factotum]

It can, you just need to get the information about Harkon's plot from someone else. Maybe interrogate a few vampires who know of what's going on.

The problem is you'd be stuck when it comes time to enter the Soul Cairn, because it relies on your having someone of Serana's mother's blood to get in there--not to mention that Serana's mother isn't likely to co-operate with a vampire hunter who killed her daughter. I would personally be happy if they just gave you the option of taking Serana back to Fort Dawnguard rather than killing her, because it would make some sort of sense for a newly-pledged vampire hunter to want to check back with the bosses to find out what to do when they find an ancient vampire carrying an Elder Scroll.

[Triaxx]

Except killing Serana means Harkon can't get in either.

[Divayth Fyr]

The problem is you'd be stuck when it comes time to enter the Soul Cairn, because it relies on your having someone of Serana's mother's blood to get in there--not to mention that Serana's mother isn't likely to co-operate with a vampire hunter who killed her daughter. I would personally be happy if they just gave you the option of taking Serana back to Fort Dawnguard rather than killing her, because it would make some sort of sense for a newly-pledged vampire hunter to want to check back with the bosses to find out what to do when they find an ancient vampire carrying an Elder Scroll.

That would simply require writing in a character able to get you to the Cairn - ie. a reclusive necromancer. In a "Serana was killed on sight" scenario using the portal in the Castle makes little sense anyway.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Ways we could continue the plot if Serana was killable, let's see...

We would then have the Elder Scroll in our possession, to start with. Presumably we could take that back to Isran, or one of the Vigilants of Stendarr, and 'let's find a Moth Priest to read this thing and find out why the vampires want it' is a logical step after that.*

Then we need to get to Soul Cairn. Divayth covered this already; the Ideal Masters never ONLY made pacts with Valerica, we just need to find someone else to get us there. We have the College of Winterhold, possibly Falion in Morthal, maybe Sybille Stentor? Lots of people who could plausibly have knowledge of Soul Cairn and ways to get there.

Then we need to get the other Scroll from Valerica. Several of you have brought up that she wouldn't help us because we killed her daughter, but VALERICA doesn't necessarily have any way of knowing that, and we don't necessarily know this is the mother of the vampire we killed to get the first scroll. So we just need to convince her to hand it over—a really high Speech check or beat down Durnehviir. Not even a big change from what's in there already.

If Valerica does know about Serana—through divination spells, or it just comes up in conversation ('My vampire daughter was guarding the other Scroll.' 'You mean the one I killed in that crypt?' 'WHY YOU--!') then we need to bargain with the Ideal Masters to help them get Valerica and help us get the Scroll.

The only remaining roadblock I can think of is finding Castle Volkihar, but IIRC by that point they were attacking the Dawnguard fortress openly, so just track them backwards and kill Harkon. Plot over.

And now I want to play Skyrim. If any of you lot who were thinking up tabletop systems for it starts a PbP game, let me know, okay?


*Incidentally the Moth Priest blinding himself on the Dawnguard branch stinks of plot contrivance too. Vampire-side makes a little more sense; being mind-controlled could put a damper on the self-preservation instinct, but he's got no excuse for being stupid Dawnguard-side.

[Divayth Fyr]

*Incidentally the Moth Priest blinding himself on the Dawnguard branch stinks of plot contrivance too. Vampire-side makes a little more sense; being mind-controlled could put a damper on the self-preservation instinct, but he's got no excuse for being stupid Dawnguard-side.

Eh, at that point the vampires had largely wiped out the Vigilants, and are openly attacking cities. I could see him taking the risk for the "greater good".

[Spore]

Damn, with this theorycrafting and the new Fudgemuppet remastered Monster Hunter build (which is very close to my Redguard Vampire Hunter) makes me want to play triple. But I already got a Fallout 4 playthrough as well as Pokemon Sun going on, all with plans to play Doom, Fallout 3, Fallout NV and Deus Ex Mankind Divided someday...

[veti]

Is it possible to complete the Dawnguard line without even knowing about the Soul Cairn?

As-written, obviously not. But conceptually, it might be. The key informational tidbits are (1) the location of Auriel's Bow, and (2) what to do with it once you've got it. Make both of those available in some other way (you can stumble into Darkfall Cave by pure chance, and when Isran sees the bow he might get Ideas all by himself without any other prompting).

So yeah, you could manage a Serana-free version of Dawnguard. It would require a little extra scripting - basically, Serana-free versions of certain cutscenes, most notably those with Arch-Curate Vyrthur, and some alternative dialogue for Isran - but content-wise, that's about all. As a bonus, it'd be considerably shorter than the full version.

As another bonus, it wouldn't require you to join the Mage's College (which you have to do to retrieve the other Elder Scroll, which you then don't even use in the Dawnguard quest, but you can't progress unless you have both).

[Triaxx]

Technically you only need to gain entrance to the college, which you can do by being Dragonborn. Though you can also fly in with a Dragon, and the game seems totally fine with that. True it's a bit tricky to get the bugger to land inside but eh.

[Inarius]

Looks like SKSE 64bit won't be available until mid march at the earliest, seems like the worst case estimate they gave before the SE launched is going to be it. Puts it smack in the middle of the next mass effect launch too so I doub't I'll be getting around to the SE until mid summer. Which is fine I guess, it'll take time for people waiting on SKSE to get their mods in order or for other people to pick up the slack.