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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    The question is: why would you want them to be True Dragons? Do you hate them that much?

    If they advance by age categories, then, as per Draconomicon, that means that they need to take a dead dragon level every time they get to the next age category before they either gain the benefit of that age category and before they can take another class level (for some reason, people don't like to read the section on dragons as PCs).

    That would make dragonwrought kobolds pretty much the worst thing ever.
    Iirc dragon hitdie bestow some pretty decent stats, much like outsider hitdie, but I'm sure that would be quite painful for casters. With that said, you can always drain the racial hitdie off or just retrain them if you do it when you only have one and there are no enervating creatures nearby.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    What I care about here, though, is that the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    The thing is, while the RAW may be thoroughly ambiguous, I'm not really sure how there's any confusion over RAI. Dragonwrought kobolds are clearly not supposed to be considered true dragons (or greater dragons, as someone pointed out might have been a better term). True dragons are like porn - we all know it when we see it. Dragonwrought kobolds aren't great mythological beasts that grow vastly bigger and more powerful with age, they don't gain HD by age category. Yes, we can find another exception to most of the requirements to be considered a true dragon - but nothing else is an exception to as many of them as DWKs are.

    Strict RAW? Who knows, but then that's hardly an uncommon situation with strict RAW. RAI? Not a chance in the nine hells.
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    By strict RAW RotD 69 is the beginning and end of what is and what isn't a true dragon at its date of publication; specifically, explicitly, exhaustively. The thread continues to lumber on because there's too much artificial drama surrounding the question for the recreational debaters to resist counting coup on each other.
    Last edited by pupaeted; 2017-01-10 at 12:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    I think the problem here is that most people are trying to look at dragonwrought kobolds as their own, independent dragons when that is simply not the case. Kobolds are outright stated as being descended from dragons and have had a long association with the chromatics, specifically. Dragonwrought kobolds aren't dragons in their own right; they're dragons because that chromatic heritage has come to the forefront like a recessive gene. They are not independent dragons. They are whatever their heritage is.

    Now, whether or not this puts them into the same camp as half-dragons is uncertain, but that's the angle we should be taking. Are dragonwrought kobolds dragon-decended or real dragons? After all, half-dragins have the dragon type but aren't "real" dragons because they're dragon-decended. If kobolds are real dragons, then they are indisputably true dragons because they are simply a dragon of whatever kind they inherited. If they are dragon-decended like half-dragons, then they are not true dragons.

    To this, I'm uncertain. Traditional genetics would put them as dragon-decended, but we're talking about a fantasy world and magical creatures. Dragons, especially, have funky genetics. I mean, there's even a ritual to change Your dragon ancestry which is all kinds of impossible in real biology. Clearly, we can't rely on that.

    Unfortunately, that's about all we have to go on. Dragonwrought kobolds are not mention in RotD's dragon-decended section, but nor are they listed among the true dragons. And they are not lesser dragons due to their true dragon heritage making them either true dragons or dragon-decended by default. The thing is, dragonwrought kobolds are barely mentioned anywhere outside that one feat. They're not even the red-headed stepchild of dragons; they're the twin who died at birth and who your parents never ever mentioned, and then one day you found a birth certificate hidden away in a box deep in the attic. But were they your identical or fraternal twin? Who knows. Your parents still refuse to acknowledge it.
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanos View Post
    I only see them once each.
    This is the table we're talking about:


    Note that some levels are pure LA boost, no HD at all:



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Hey, absurd pedantry is how we got here in the first place so I deny this argument.

    Dr says they have 12. Not at least 12, not 12 or more
    That's now how D&D works. If you need 4 skill ranks to enter a class, then having 5 skill ranks does not disqualify you from that class.

    Don't be upset that someone was able to bring more advance pedantry than you had anticipated.

    You're not being a pedant about this, you're just plain wrong.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    That's now how D&D works. If you need 4 skill ranks to enter a class, then having 5 skill ranks does not disqualify you from that class.

    Don't be upset that someone was able to bring more advance pedantry than you had anticipated.

    You're not being a pedant about this, you're just plain wrong.
    Y'know, I was on this page with you, the 15 is fine even under pedantry page, and was thinking of a post to that effect, but the opposing argument might have some merit to it. If something is asking whether you have a certain amount of something, as a requirement or as a request, then more is fine. More is always fine. But this true dragon thing could be considered less requirement and more quality. As in, it's an intrinsic definitional quality of dragons that they have twelve age categories. In that context, more could be considered too much.

    Consider normal real world humans as an example. We, at the baseline, have one heart. In the list of human qualities, one could write, "Humans have one heart." Now, if you introduce some arbitrary creature, and one of its baseline qualities is, "This creature has two hearts," would that not be an immediately disqualifying factor? Would you say, "The text lists one heart, and this creature has that one heart, and just happens to have another one,"? Would you then conclude that this creature is human unless something else fails to line up (which may well happen, of course)? I'd say no.

    What's clear to me from this is that the highest level of pedantry dictates that the meaning of, "Do you have X whatevers, such that you can be this thing?" is fundamentally contextual. If we're working with a threshold, requirement, barrier, or something else of that variety, then "X or more" is implied. No one asking you for a certain number of apples cares that you have way more than that. If we're working with a quality though, something writ deep within the rhetorical DNA of the thing, then the text probably does care about the exact number.

    Of course, kobolds might just have 12 age categories. The text doesn't call them categories, so they're probably not. What I care about here, though, is that the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    What I care about here, though, is that the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    What I care about here, though, is that the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Despair View Post
    This is sig' gold. Would you mind?
    Sure, is fine.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Y'know, I was on this page with you, the 15 is fine even under pedantry page, and was thinking of a post to that effect, but the opposing argument might have some merit to it. If something is asking whether you have a certain amount of something, as a requirement or as a request, then more is fine. More is always fine. But this true dragon thing could be considered less requirement and more quality. As in, it's an intrinsic definitional quality of dragons that they have twelve age categories. In that context, more could be considered too much.

    Consider normal real world humans as an example. We, at the baseline, have one heart. In the list of human qualities, one could write, "Humans have one heart." Now, if you introduce some arbitrary creature, and one of its baseline qualities is, "This creature has two hearts," would that not be an immediately disqualifying factor? Would you say, "The text lists one heart, and this creature has that one heart, and just happens to have another one,"? Would you then conclude that this creature is human unless something else fails to line up (which may well happen, of course)? I'd say no.

    What's clear to me from this is that the highest level of pedantry dictates that the meaning of, "Do you have X whatevers, such that you can be this thing?" is fundamentally contextual. If we're working with a threshold, requirement, barrier, or something else of that variety, then "X or more" is implied. No one asking you for a certain number of apples cares that you have way more than that. If we're working with a quality though, something writ deep within the rhetorical DNA of the thing, then the text probably does care about the exact number.

    Of course, kobolds might just have 12 age categories. The text doesn't call them categories, so they're probably not. What I care about here, though, is that the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.
    Humans with a rare multiple organ mutation don't disqualify as humans same as all those examples of frogs with significantly more than four legs. Now if the human candidate shows now signs of natural aging, and changes appearance instead of dying, you may well have a case.
    Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by ryu View Post
    Humans with a rare multiple organ mutation don't disqualify as humans same as all those examples of frogs with significantly more than four legs. Now if the human candidate shows now signs of natural aging, and changes appearance instead of dying, you may well have a case.
    I was explicit about this being a baseline assessment. Humans definitionally have one heart if nothing weird is going on. This arbitrary other species definitionally has two hearts if nothing weird is going on. That an instantiated human might have two hearts, or that an instantiated creature X might have one, is irrelevant compared to what we know to be true outside of exceptional circumstances.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    I was explicit about this being a baseline assessment. Humans definitionally have one heart if nothing weird is going on. This arbitrary other species definitionally has two hearts if nothing weird is going on. That an instantiated human might have two hearts, or that an instantiated creature X might have one, is irrelevant compared to what we know to be true outside of exceptional circumstances.
    I'm just saying you need to at least check for weird birth mutations before making the call. Let's be real here. In the actual world which are you more likely to assume? That you have a human with a weird mutation which is extremely rare but not unheard of, or that you've discovered an entirely new species that looks almost exactly like a human with a few interesting details tacked on that speaks our language and could easily pass as a member of the species in all scenarios not involving an X-Ray or very long term surveillance?
    Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by ryu View Post
    I'm just saying you need to at least check for weird birth mutations before making the call. Let's be real here. In the actual world which are you more likely to assume? That you have a human with a weird mutation which is extremely rare but not unheard of, or that you've discovered an entirely new species that looks almost exactly like a human with a few interesting details tacked on that speaks our language and could easily pass as a member of the species in all scenarios not involving an X-Ray or very long term surveillance?
    Not really my point. We're not strictly making a call on an individual creature here. After all, in the analogy back to 3.5, we can consider both dragons and kobolds in a broad sense without needing to consider some particular kobold that happens to have fewer age categories. We're not necessarily looking at some animal we found and put in a lab, but are instead, say, landing on some island, and finding a whole collective of two-hearted beings. We could plausibly be working with some human offshoot, but it strikes me as unlikely that we'd just toss them in the human bucket without a second thought.

    And, critically, no matter how you look at the situation, the second heart is fundamentally a disqualifying rather than qualifying factor. You don't look at this two hearted being and say, "Yep, the heart box is checked. Let's find out what other human qualities this creature has." Instead, you toss the being into the probably not human pile and possibly let a confluence of other factors convince you otherwise. The former method is taking a decidedly Zim-like approach to species classification.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    This is the table we're talking about:
    Ah, I was just looking at the ones in the SRD. Fair enough.
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    But they appear several times each, because they are not units of advancement.

    The units of advancement are: racial HD and level adjustment.
    For Dragons as PCs.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    If dragons were required to literally advance by age categories, not hit dice or LA, then there would be much sharper delineations between "levels". This is not the case, and therefore "advance by age categories" cannot be literally applied.
    As it ages, as shown on Table 3–21: Aging for Dragon PCs, the dragon is required to devote a level every few years to its dragon “class,” reflecting the extra Hit Die or level adjustment it gains from aging.
    I guess you didn't finish reading the books before making your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    The thing is, while the RAW may be thoroughly ambiguous,
    See above and...
    Lesser Dragon PCs
    Using another creature of the dragon type as a player character is rather less complicated than using a true dragon. Such a creature has a set level adjustment and no built-in progression due to age,
    A +3 bonus to mental scores is not progression and obtaining a template does not produce a variable LA. There is no ambiguity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    The question is: why would you want them to be True Dragons? Do you hate them that much?
    It's for lore drake.

    Most GitP users are not familiar with google, how to search, or the actual methods to increase your spellcasting above your hit dice in both theoretical and practical manners. Then you have the ones that are purely selfishly motivated by refusing to ever admit they are wrong and the ones that know they are wrong but enjoy pointless arguing. Finally you have your crowd of people that are seemingly neutral but as they argue everyone else's points, rather than the rules, so they engage in a displaced strawman argument that proves nothing and they don't even realize it.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post

    It's for lore drake.

    Most GitP users are not familiar with google, how to search, or the actual methods to increase your spellcasting above your hit dice in both theoretical and practical manners. Then you have the ones that are purely selfishly motivated by refusing to ever admit they are wrong and the ones that know they are wrong but enjoy pointless arguing. Finally you have your crowd of people that are seemingly neutral but as they argue everyone else's points, rather than the rules, so they engage in a displaced strawman argument that proves nothing and they don't even realize it.
    Actually it was already shown that loredrake does not actually require true dragon. It's somewhat implied but never stated.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    ...Most GitP users are not familiar with google, how to search, ...
    I was going to keep my trap shut till I saw this. How how I bow to your superior skills sir.

    The Dragonwrought debate as I see it.

    Draconomicon
    Page 4 (boxed text)

    1. “True Dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older”

    If a Kobold ages with the same categories as a dragon … isn’t an adult kobold more powerful than a wyrmling?


    1. “Other creatures of the Dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as Lesser Dragons”

    Kolbold can’t be a lesser Dragon because of this … note that it doesn’t say “gains HD or ECL or CR or anything else, just “advances through age categories”

    Page 5 (plain text)

    1. “At first glance, a true dragon resembles a reptile”

    Kobolds DO look somewhat Reptilian, they even have the reptilian subtype!

    Races of the Dragon
    Page 39 (plain test)

    1. “For all effects related to race, a kobold is considered a dragon.”


    Doesn’t say for “some effects” does it? And they cannot be Lesser dragons because of #2 above.


    1. “kobolds mature at a breakneck pace, using the same life cycle as dragons,”


    More proof for 1 and 2 above, don’t you think?

    Page 40 (plain text)


    1. On rare occasions, a kobold female lays what kobolds call a dragonwrought egg (see the Dragonwrought feat,

    Page 100). These eggs are spotted with the color of whichever true dragon influences the dragonwrought kobold within, with such mottles increasing in number and size as the wyrmling inside grows.

    Color of whichever TRUE dragon influences … and wyrmling is further proof for #s 1 and 2

    Page 100 (plain text)


    1. “You are a dragon wrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood

    subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. Your scales become tinted with a color that matches that of your draconic heritage. As a dragon, you are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects. You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. You gain a +2 racial bonus on the skill indicated for your draconic heritage”

    Type changes from Humanoid to Dragon and you even LOSE the dragonblood subtype, so you must be a dragon! (yet you can’t be a lesser dragon, see #2 above), you gain the color that matches your heritage (your true dragon Heritage, see #6 above), and you gain immunities and skill bonuses of your true dragon heritage (again see # 6 above).


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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostshadow View Post
    1. “True Dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older”

    If a Kobold ages with the same categories as a dragon … isn’t an adult kobold more powerful than a wyrmling?
    Congratulations, I'm pretty sure you just proved that Monks are true dragons.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostshadow View Post
    1. “Other creatures of the Dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as Lesser Dragons”

    Kolbold can’t be a lesser Dragon because of this … note that it doesn’t say “gains HD or ECL or CR or anything else, just “advances through age categories”
    Except they don't advance through age categories, so they are lesser dragons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Except they don't advance through age categories, so they are lesser dragons.
    So just to clarify, are you categorically stating the opinion that there is absolutely no definition of "advance" that would be correctly used in describing the way kobolds age progressively thru their twelve draconic age categories?

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by AnachroNinja View Post
    So just to clarify, are you categorically stating the opinion that there is absolutely no definition of "advance"
    The advancement rules in the Monster Manual allow dragons theoretically infinite progression even beyond the statistics of great wyrm.
    Well according to the book that brought up the term, "advance" is actually so well defined that it is a rule and it is located in the MM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MM290
    Class Levels: Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of “By character class” in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.

    Increased Hit Dice: Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

    Templates: Both intelligent and nonintelligent creatures with an unusual heritage (such as draconic or fiendish blood) or an inflicted change in their essential nature (undeath or lycanthropy) may be modified with a template. Templates usually result in tougher monsters with capabilities that differ from those of their common kin.

    Each of these three methods for improving monsters is discussed in more detail below.
    And here it says creatures advance by gaining levels, either class or hit dice depending on their shape or as defined by their advancement entry, and obtaining a template is not a form of advancement. I just said this in my last post too, I guess you missed it. And unfortunately for you, playing devil's advocate to claim kobolds are "uncommon" actually requires proof.

    This is also the second time today someone's claimed that something isn't in the rule books and I found the entries within seconds. So let's back up to my previous post for a moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    Finally you have your crowd of people that are seemingly neutral but as they argue everyone else's points, rather than the rules, so they engage in a displaced strawman argument that proves nothing and they don't even realize it.
    Last edited by Mato; 2017-01-10 at 05:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Congratulations, I'm pretty sure you just proved that Monks are true dragons.
    Except that they become outsiders, not dragons. Everything else used to detail true dragons that we've discussed would preclude monks from being them without further qualification.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    What I care about here, though, is that the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    Well according to the book that brought up the term, "advance" is actually so well defined that it is a rule and it is located in the MM.
    And here it says creatures advance by gaining levels, either class or hit dice depending on their shape or as defined by their advancement entry, and obtaining a template is not a form of advancement. I just said this in my last post too, I guess you missed it. And unfortunately for you, playing devil's advocate to claim kobolds are "uncommon" actually requires proof.

    This is also the second time today someone's claimed that something isn't in the rule books and I found the entries within seconds. So let's back up to my previous post for a moment.
    Can you cite the glossary definition of the word advance? You know, instead of claiming that using the word "advance" within the definition of the similar but entirely seperate game term "advancement", somehow inextricably ties the two words together forever?

    For example, I'll point to a section from the Heirophant PRC...

    Spells and Caster Level
    Levels in the hierophant prestige class, even though they do not advance spell progression in the character’s base class, still stack with the character’s base spellcasting levels to determine caster level.
    That sure seems like a issue of advance that has nothing to do with HD or ECL... I guess that means that you can't just blithely state that advance is a specific in game term that only refers to advancing HD/LA/ECL... Unless you found that glossary citation? No?

    Oh, I guess you're wrong then.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Congratulations, I'm pretty sure you just proved that Monks are true dragons.


    Except they don't advance through age categories, so they are lesser dragons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Despair View Post
    Except that they become outsiders, not dragons. Everything else used to detail true dragons that we've discussed would preclude monks from being them without further qualification.
    One part got answered for me. wheeee!

    If they don't advance through age categories then how do they age? come on, ante up! Especially since lesser dragons explicitly do not even use the age categories!

    hmmm...... change cannot me think.
    Last edited by lylsyly; 2017-01-10 at 06:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by AnachroNinja View Post
    Can you cite the glossary definition of the word advance? You know, instead of claiming that using the word "advance" within the definition of the similar but entirely seperate game term "advancement", somehow inextricably ties the two words together forever?

    For example, I'll point to a section from the Heirophant PRC...



    That sure seems like a issue of advance that has nothing to do with HD or ECL... I guess that means that you can't just blithely state that advance is a specific in game term that only refers to advancing HD/LA/ECL... Unless you found that glossary citation? No?

    Oh, I guess you're wrong then.
    Honestly, requiring a glossary definition of the word advance in light of the wholly unambiguous context provided by the rules for improving monsters requires a level of willful misinterpretation and ignorance of basic precepts that would render D&D 3.5 unplayable.


    If you think that the definition of gaining power by advancing through age categories is covered solely by mental stat increases, then please outline how how a 200 year old venerable dragonwrought kobold Barbarian 1 is more powerful in every way than a 75 year old regular Kobold Sorcerer 15?
    Last edited by Doctor Awkward; 2017-01-10 at 06:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  25. - Top - End - #235
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonymitsu View Post
    If you think that the definition of gaining power by advancing through age categories is covered solely by mental stat increases, then please outline how how a 200 year old venerable dragonwrought kobold Barbarian 1 is more powerful in every way than a 75 year old regular Kobold Sorcerer 15?
    It said advance, not advance more quickly than anything else. Don't move the goalposts for the text. A 200 year DK Barbarian 1 is quantifiably more powerful in objective ways than a 75 year old DK Barbarian 1.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    What I care about here, though, is that the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.
    Level 6 Dread Necromancers can start the apocalypse
    Level 12 Bards can counter T1 spellcasters and kill Greater Deities

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    But it Doesn't say anything about advancing HD, or class levels, or anything else you are dreaming of, it says advances by AGE categories. So you are saying that getting older and going through the age categories (regardless of HD, class level, or whatever) is not advancement?
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostshadow View Post
    But it Doesn't say anything about advancing HD, or class levels, or anything else you are dreaming of, it says advances by AGE categories. So you are saying that getting older and going through the age categories (regardless of HD, class level, or whatever) is not advancement?
    They could try to value innocence and say the Kobold is regressing through age categories ;)
    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    What I care about here, though, is that the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.
    Level 6 Dread Necromancers can start the apocalypse
    Level 12 Bards can counter T1 spellcasters and kill Greater Deities

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Just for fun (and more proof although it IS fluff (or is it?):

    Quote Originally Posted by RotD p. 50
    wherever the dragons’ blood had spilled, little creatures began to emerge out of the ground with alert, crimson eyes, already looking up at their creators for guidance. Thus were kobolds born, witnesses to the moments during which the immortality of the true dragons slipped away.
    Last edited by lylsyly; 2017-01-10 at 06:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostshadow View Post
    But it Doesn't say anything about advancing HD, or class levels, or anything else you are dreaming of, it says advances by AGE categories. So you are saying that getting older and going through the age categories (regardless of HD, class level, or whatever) is not advancement?
    Yes. Yes we are. Because it's not. I'm glad we can finally agree.

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    Default Re: Dragonwrought Kobolds

    Draconomicon, page 4

    Other creatures of the Dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as Lesser Dragons

    I guess you are now going to tell me that "through" and "by" are the same thing?

    Is English your primary language?
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