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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Sep 2016

    Default Invocation only Warlock?

    Was a huge fan of how warlocks worked in 3.5 and was wondering if anyone had come across a variant warlock that removed the limited spellcasting and expanded upon the invocations?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    I don't think anyone has. Would you remove their cantrips though? That's kind of the whole cornerstone of the class, that they're casters now. Take that away and you have... kind of a spooky Rogue?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainSarathai View Post
    I don't think anyone has. Would you remove their cantrips though? That's kind of the whole cornerstone of the class, that they're casters now. Take that away and you have... kind of a spooky Rogue?
    I think the cantrips are intended to stay since I think the OP wants something closer to the 3e warlock which used at will spell use which are now cantrips.

    I think the only way to do this would be to increase the number of cantrips, increase the number of invocations, make the invocations give you more at will abilities that add to what you do that sound magical, and give out class abilities that enhance your EB thus making you the magical archer type.


    This would require such a rewrite though that this would not be easy.

    It might be easier to start with a non-casting class and modify it instead. For instance take the rogue and remove sneak attack. Then add EB at first level and then add the invocation options. For a heavy armor version you could go fighter and you have the new hexblade. Remove a few class features and add some basic invocations and a couple new class features it might work out ok.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
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    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    I wouldn't hate a spooky rogue, mind. Especially if it got some mystical versions of the Rogue's mobility options. Though doesn't the shadow monk kinda do that already?

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    Well then, I'm rather intrigued by this. I might pull out my 3ed books (any idea where to start looking) and have a peak at "the olden days," and try to come up with something new here.
    Should it be a whole new class? A Hexblade, essentially? Or stay Warlock with the current list of Patrons, Pacts, and so forth?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    I wouldn't hate a spooky rogue, mind. Especially if it got some mystical versions of the Rogue's mobility options. Though doesn't the shadow monk kinda do that already?
    Ah but a shadow monk still makes weapon attacks the 3e warlock made spell attacks only (except for 2 exceptions in eldritch strike, which sucked and could be replicated by an invocation in 5e and would be pretty nice, and eldritch claws which was a Dragon Mag feat so really does not count in most circles, eldritch glaive was actually a spell attack so does not count for this).

    However you could make an invocation called eldritch glaive which gives you a melee version of EB and perhaps allow you to make opportunity attacks with the damage of one beam per use. Could work.

    I would think actually a rogue that replaced sneak attack with EB and invocations could be a lot of fun. IN fact I might like that more than a regular rogue since it would be slightly more reliable....
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    Alright, well, anyway - I'm working on this.

    Basically, a full ground-up of the Warlock. Keeping the Patrons, making the Pacts more like Subclasses, and handling the Invocations.
    In D&D/5e/WotC fashion, I am going to leave a "caster option" in, kinda the same way Rogues can go Arcane Trickster and Fighters go Eldritch Knight. Also, I'll add a sort of Roguish 4th Pact, I guess? Dunno yet. We'll see.
    Gonna be a royal b**** to type out on mobile though...

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
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    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    I think a spell less Warlock would be interesting for a Bladelock-- if you make the abilities intrinsic, maybe you could finally get some kinda war magic thing that lets you actually have magical blade moves, rather than having your something you do when you AREN'T attacking. Something closer to the Paladin smite spells.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    As MeeposFire said, the cantrips would stay in a fashion (many would become invocations instead). Remove spellcasting and get a larger selection of invocations that do different things. I think the main thing for this would be adding in more choices for invocations as there aren't a huge number at the moment.

    Eldritch blast itself was a class feature that could be improved with invocations, similar to the pacts being base features which can be improved with invocations.

    I might have a look at developing something along the lines of the 3.x Warlock if I have time; was just wondering if it was something that already existed. I just don't like how the focus of the class seems to be split three ways with the pacts, invocations and spells.

    EDIT: I do like how pact of the tome adds in the ritual casting thing, that's cool and adds a lot of flavour. And if I was going to keep spellcasting as part of the class, it would be kept under this pact.
    Last edited by tyruth; 2017-01-22 at 04:10 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    I like, just more at will powers.

    Could be cool especially for a bladelock who only needs a buff here or there and maybe in melee all the time

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Giant2005's Avatar

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    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    Change the pact magic feature so it keeps its spell slot level progression as it is, but just have a single spell slot that can be used once per round. As for the spells known, give it the progression of either a 1/3 caster or a 1/2 caster depending on how powerful you want the Warlock to be (I'd err on the side of caution and go with 1/3).
    Last edited by Giant2005; 2017-01-22 at 04:43 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    Change the pact magic feature so it keeps its spell slot level progression as it is, but just have a single spell slot that can be used once per round. As for the spells known, give it the progression of either a 1/3 caster or a 1/2 caster depending on how powerful you want the Warlock to be (I'd err on the side of caution and go with 1/3).
    Very limited spell list, you'd have to make sure nothing would break the campaign. While I'm with you 1/3 caster seems reasonable, youhave some freedom to have some spells come earlier. So you could still allow some spells higher than level four if you feel comfortable with their spammed use.

    This could be a good chassis for a Swiftblade being able to cast Haste constantly could make for an interesting subclass or just selection of spells.


    You might want to broaden the fluff so if you put work in balancing you could use it without a pact/ Warlock backstory.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Ah but a shadow monk still makes weapon attacks the 3e warlock made spell attacks only (except for 2 exceptions in eldritch strike, which sucked and could be replicated by an invocation in 5e and would be pretty nice, and eldritch claws which was a Dragon Mag feat so really does not count in most circles, eldritch glaive was actually a spell attack so does not count for this).

    However you could make an invocation called eldritch glaive which gives you a melee version of EB and perhaps allow you to make opportunity attacks with the damage of one beam per use. Could work.

    I would think actually a rogue that replaced sneak attack with EB and invocations could be a lot of fun. IN fact I might like that more than a regular rogue since it would be slightly more reliable....
    I think you are lookign for the three options called Hideous blow (which, indeed, blows hideously) from CA, Eldritch Glaive (from dragon Magic, which made for a decent invocation and the Eldritch Claws feat from dragon mag which was useless unless you specifically built for it when it would turn fantastic.

    As for the Invocation warlock:

    EB becomes an ability that scales pretty much like SA.

    Then you get invocations in 3 flavours: those that change the shape of EB (like Eldritch Spear, but not to mention eldritch chain/cone/whatever), invocations that change the way EB does its thing (Eldritch Admixture to change from force to other elements, each of which have benefits like fire igniting stuff, shock consave or lose next action, acid for DoT, Thunder for repelling blast, cold for half movement. The third category of invocations adds utility like disguise self (alter self/shapechange at later levels), movement options (increased speed/spider climb/fly/misty step/dimension door/teleport), terrain effects (darkness, stinking cloud, cloudkill, hunger of hadar etc) ro defensive options (mage armour/temp hp(even if I think temp hp is a bad idea)/resistances) or stuff that helps you interact with people (basically enchantment spells and/or illusion spells).

    Some of these invocations will be level locked (stuff that lets you emulate fireball had better come online after the main casters get it) and the warlock will (depend on how strong/useful the invocations are) get 1 or 2 invocations every lvl (lots of very specific invocations and you get 2, a few but widely usable invocations and you get one).

    The pact will grant a couple of invocations that are specific to that patron, and the pactboon will reflect something you can either do through eldritch blast or with your invocations. For example: Eldritch Blade allows you to use Eldritch Blade through a weapon of your choice (adds weapon die+ appropriate ability modifier to dmg) (and not limited to melee so you can totally emulate a crossbow or longbow). An Eldritch Tome gives you access to rituals like a wizard (and only as a ritual), as well as get more invoctaions but you prepare your invocations like clerics, druids and wizard (and you get the same number of invocations prepraed as your non tome brethren). Eldritch chain gets you a puppy which grows with you in ability as you level.

    Each of the boons and pacts give access to a specifc couple of invocations.
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Invocation only Warlock?

    Well, anyway - it took me a couple of hours to type out. Not sure quite how well I captured the feel everyone was going for, and by the end I was too burned out to really come up with many more Invocations. Here's the thread though:
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...3#post21628333
    Last edited by CaptainSarathai; 2017-01-23 at 12:57 AM.

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