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  1. - Top - End - #841
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    But the adept isn't actually behind. In fact, adepts only do two things worse than cyber - armor stacking and raw stat boosts. The first is good and shouldn't be changed, since being nigh-impenetrable is what the samurai is for (and biosams don't even get there, not really), and the second is easily fixed - drop Improved Physical Attribute to 0.5PP and Improved Skill to 0.25 PP, while limiting the total amount of IS you can have to Magic. There, you just lost any reason to build a samurai if you aren't magic-averse and don't aim for being almost unkillable with conventional weapons.
    I agree, although I'd argue that at the start of the game, street sams can have a way higher baseline vis a vis combat effectiveness. In 4e, for example, wired reflexes 2 costs just under 7 bp to buy, while the equivalent adept power would cost 2.5 magic points, which is a whopping twenty-five bp.

    They sort of tried to address this with the State of the Art rules. Every other run or so, the GM is supposed to decide which field the Art has improved in, and anyone with that type of equipment needs to pay to upgrade, or their equipment starts working less effectively. This is supposed to illustrate technology moving forward, and new gear being better than the old, without the power creep.
    But that's kinda the opposite of things getting better. If gear was really getting better, the new equipment that characters upgrade to should be more effective than what you used to be able to get. This is just planned obsolescence with constant non-improvement. Which, to be fair, does fit fairly well in the setting- but it still doesn't make sense that the cyberware you can get in 2080 is no better than the ware you can get 10 years prior.

  2. - Top - End - #842
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    They sort of tried to address this with the State of the Art rules. Every other run or so, the GM is supposed to decide which field the Art has improved in, and anyone with that type of equipment needs to pay to upgrade, or their equipment starts working less effectively. This is supposed to illustrate technology moving forward, and new gear being better than the old, without the power creep.
    Yeah, and it's a terrible idea as well. It imposes upkeep on people who already require more nuyen to function, while not actually giving them any power for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waxpapers View Post
    I agree, although I'd argue that at the start of the game, street sams can have a way higher baseline vis a vis combat effectiveness. In 4e, for example, wired reflexes 2 costs just under 7 bp to buy, while the equivalent adept power would cost 2.5 magic points, which is a whopping twenty-five bp.
    4e was the only modern edition where this was the case. In all other cases, getting Improved Reflexes would cost less than Wired Reflexes, but only one of those incurs an Essence cost.
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  3. - Top - End - #843
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    Yeah, and it's a terrible idea as well. It imposes upkeep on people who already require more nuyen to function, while not actually giving them any power for it.
    Oh sure. You're never going to see me argue in favor of the SotA rules (unless someone proposes something even worse). It's really nothing more than a way to force your players to cough up more nuyen.
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  4. - Top - End - #844
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Anybody have comments about the optional rule of program degradation for hackers? (That might only be in 4e, I don't know.) It sounds similar to "State of the Art" in terms of burning money to stay decent rather than to get better -- but it only applies to stuff that corps don't support, including anything you don't let them support, so as to be harder to trace. When I first read it, I liked the tradeoff. Looking at it from the "SotA" perspective makes it seem less fun, though.
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  5. - Top - End - #845
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    2nd Edition had the Evaluate program (the one that looks for Paydata, from Virtual Realities 2.0) degrade by one rating after each run. You could either pay to update it or spend time programming it back up.

    I think the 2E Shadowrun Companion was the first place the State of the Art rules showed up. VR 2.0 is the first place I saw SOTA, but it was in relation to new kinds of IC for deckers to encounter.

    Depending on how much programming you've done, SotA costs can hit Deckers harder than anyone. Having to bring 20-odd programs plus hardware and such back up one rating level can easily run you several hundred-thousand nuyen or hundreds of hours of programming.
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2020-03-11 at 04:13 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #846
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    In 4e, a lot of stuff was a lot cheaper, so it might work there. But honestly, hardware based characters are usually constantly broke anyway, yeah something like that might sound realistic, but in the end it's just adding to the frustration of a guy who already looks with envy at the magical characters who have it all.

  7. - Top - End - #847
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    In 4e, a lot of stuff was a lot cheaper, so it might work there. But honestly, hardware based characters are usually constantly broke anyway, yeah something like that might sound realistic, but in the end it's just adding to the frustration of a guy who already looks with envy at the magical characters who have it all.
    It seems like the magicians had to update their libraries due to SotA rules (at least in 2E). But that's much cheaper than the decker, rigger, or street sammy.
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  8. - Top - End - #848
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Since in my experience 90% of spellcaster players back in 2/3e played shamans who didn't use libraries that makes it even worse, it nerfs just the "worse" magical tradition.

  9. - Top - End - #849
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Looking closer at the rules gives a variable Karma-Nuyen conversion rate. For most SOTA cases, you can reduce your upkeep costs by 500 nuyen per point of karma. But for reaction-enhancing cyberware, each point of karma is worth 5,000 nuyen. Very interesting if you combine this rule with the cash-for-karma and karma-for-cash rules.

    And if you're a physical adept without biotech skills or equipment (first aid kits, etc.) and no Magic Theory skill, you're pretty much completely immune to SOTA.

    TL/DR: Two more good reasons not to use the SOTA rules.
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  10. - Top - End - #850
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Since in my experience 90% of spellcaster players back in 2/3e played shamans who didn't use libraries that makes it even worse, it nerfs just the "worse" magical tradition.
    The main draw of the Shaman for us was the Spirits... better to summon a spirit for right now than have to summon one in advance to maybe be useful, and at a large cost.
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  11. - Top - End - #851
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    I actually liked the mage better, with the ability to summon a number of elementals equal to my charisma, and have them all at once. And if I don't use them in one mission, they are still "on call" until I do need them.

    I didn't really like the totem options, partly because of the limitations them imposed. I could always go with Coyote, who doesn't get limitations, but I somehow preferred the feel of the Mage instead. It might that I didn't really want the Medicine Lodge chanting/singing feel for my character. Hmmm. Something to think about.
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  12. - Top - End - #852
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Well, can't argue with feelings obviously, but objectively, Mages were just worse. They needed a lot more money to get less out of it for most runs, nature spirits are just massively superior to elementals in the majority of situations I encountered. The only situation when mages had an advantage if you knew there'd be a huge all out fight and they had the time and resources to prepare a lot of elementals in advance, but I'm not sure I've encountered something like that more than once or twice in decades of play.

  13. - Top - End - #853
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Fair enough. It wouldn't be the first time I'd liked something sub-optimal. I had this whole post written about pretending to be outraged, but it really just wasn't that funny, so I deleted it.

    You want sub-optimal, you should have seen my first PC. A rigger with three-quarters of a million nuyen tied up in a totally cool but thoroughly useless SAAB Dynamit. I mean, I could totally kill anything with it (up and including a great western dragon), but this is Shadowrun, not Car Wars. I had one ground drone: a GAZ-NIKKI Snoop, two frisbees (micro-skimmers?), and a pair of very expensive fixed-wing drones: a Dalmation and a Wandjina. Nothing for covert aerial surveillance, and no combat drone that could be used inside a building. But I clung to that character like a drowning man to a life ring. It was pretty sad, really.

    Hey, everyone, what was your worst character?
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  14. - Top - End - #854
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    In my defense my worst was character was for a game set in England where the GM decided to go REALLY low powered. Our Decker had a radio shack deck, our Rigger actually had a vehicle control rig but only a bike, our Mage had Body 1 and two spells and my Physical Adept had only three points worth of powers and his best weapon was a Ramco catapult and a bag of ball bearings
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  15. - Top - End - #855
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Worst character... 3e elf conjurer. Only one to survive the fourth run.

    I was roped into a group of enthusiastic new-ish roleplayers and one of their friends who was another long time player/dm. After initial introductions I waited to create a character until I saw theirs. Three gun-bunnies specced for laser, machine gun, and sniper rifle, plus a melee phys ad. I think one of them could drive and had a motorcycle.

    They needed some sort of coverage for basically everything but combat. So I relally fast threw togather a max charisma, low body, skill wires 6, conjurer with lots of contacts and some social/magic skills and a focus of some sort. Not bad, could cover the social well, had a big pile of contacts, a couple safe houses, buy other skiils as needed, perceive astral, and call force 5 elementals with about 8 uses each (force 7 at about 3 each if able to take the physical damage during downtime). Decking was offloaded to an off-screen npc/contact.

    I recall driving lots of stolen cars, lots of talking, a few imaginative summons uses, spraying an uzi3 in the direction of a fight shouting "I'm helping!", getting shot during lunch at a fast food joint... with a missle launcher... and getting more and more worried as the guys went more and more pink mohawk on a "quiet political intimidation" run.
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  16. - Top - End - #856
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Hey, everyone, what was your worst character?
    That's hard to say since I ran more games than I was a player in. Maybe the street sam I played in the very first time I ever played Shadowrun? I can't remember if it was 2e or 3e... it was the mid-90s, and I only pick this character as the worst because I didn't know the rules and the other players more-or-less just did all the rolling mechanics for me rather than teach me what they are.


    GM-wise, I can tell you that my fondness for a particular campaign was always inversely proportional to the number of spirits the party casters summoned. XD
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  17. - Top - End - #857
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    So I'm joining a 5e PbP, and was thinking heavily about making a Rigger. What's a good Priority to start with for that kind of character?

    Currently I have:

    A.) Skills
    B.) Resources
    C.) Attributes
    D.) Metatype (Human)
    E.) Magic (none).

    But I'm not sure about those top three; whether skills, attributes, or resources is the most important factor in a character. I get the niggling feeling I've made a mistake putting attributes at C since literally everybody else has Attributes set as A, so what makes them so much more important than other factors, if at all?

  18. - Top - End - #858
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    You don't need attributes at A. As a rigger you only need a couple of decent attributes. I think you might want to sub in resources at A instead of skills though. IIRC, you only really need gunnery and 2-3 piloting skills to function as a rigger (though having some more options is nice). The rest will be handled by skill programs for the drones.

    EDit: I just checked the priority table, and skills B should be more than sufficient. put your skill group points in repair skills, invest your points in gunnery and the relevant piloting, spend some spare points on hardware and electronic warfare, and round it off with points to taste. You need good Reaction and logic, plus body for not dying and intuition for more initiatve which your attribute points at C will get you.
    Last edited by DeTess; 2020-03-28 at 04:14 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #859
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    So I'm joining a 5e PbP, and was thinking heavily about making a Rigger. What's a good Priority to start with for that kind of character?

    Currently I have:

    A.) Skills
    B.) Resources
    C.) Attributes
    D.) Metatype (Human)
    E.) Magic (none).

    But I'm not sure about those top three; whether skills, attributes, or resources is the most important factor in a character. I get the niggling feeling I've made a mistake putting attributes at C since literally everybody else has Attributes set as A, so what makes them so much more important than other factors, if at all?
    The main reason why Attributes A is important is because for everyone who might get into a firefight, Reaction, Intuition, and Agility are all key; if you use magic or don't want to be screwed over by magic, Willpower is important; and Body and Charisma are two things everyone should really want a bit of.

    So 4 points in Reaction, Intuition, and Agility each is already 12 points; 2 points in each of Willpower, Body, and Charisma brings you to 18 points/priority B already.

    (That said, Resources A/Attributes B is usually better for the characters who don't care about essence. I've got a pet Resources A/Attr B/Metatype (Human) C/Magic D/Skills E Street Samurai build that gets its Str/Agi from Redliner and a Liminal (Tauric) lower half and 7 Edge to make up for its lackluster non-combat skills.)

    That tangent aside, for a rigger, definitely Resources A. It gets you a lot of fun toys and software for your drones, and if you really want the extra skills, well, you can do silly things with Restricted Gear for a rating 3 move-by-wire or rating 6 Skillwires + Activesofts to buy the skills you're missing.

    I'll also float the notion that EWar is really nice to have at a good value. Given that many cars aren't even equipped with a manual transmission, Jammer + usual spam zone Noise means that a lot of cars just won't function, winning you the chase easily.
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  20. - Top - End - #860
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Thanks for the advice guys. Going with this statline for now:

    BOD 4/6
    AGI 4/6
    REA 6/6
    STR 1/6
    WIL 1/6
    LOG 5/6
    INT 5/6
    CHA 1/6
    Essence 6/6
    Magic N/A

    If I die to some weird magic shenanigans, I die.

  21. - Top - End - #861
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    So pretty much everything went off without a hitch, but then I got to gear. I ended up spending a lot of my cash, see spoiler below:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Gear (450k):
    Medium Lifestyle (5k)

    Weapons:
    Browning Superpower (640)
    Stoner-Ares M202 (7k)
    Flechetti Pain Inducer (5k)
    Ares Alpha x4 (10.6k)
    Panther XXL (43k)
    Armtech MGL-12 x2 (10k)

    Weapon Attachments:
    Airburst Link x2 (1200)
    Gyro Mount (1400)

    Electronics and Cyberware:
    Rating 1 Control Rig (43k)
    Maser Industrial electronics Control Module (64k)

    Vehicles:
    Ares Roadmaster (53k with Control Rig);
    Toyota Gopher (26k with Control Rig)
    Yongkang gala Trinity (38k with Control Rig)
    Artemis Industries Nightwing (21k with Control Rig)

    Drones:
    Shiawase Kanmushi x5 (5k)
    MCT Fly-spy x2 (4k)
    GM Nissan Doberman x2 (10k)
    Steel Lynx Combat Drone (25k)


    But that's only 372.84k spent, leaving me nearly 100 grand left to chew through, and my brain is starting to turn to mush looking at these item tables.

    Any suggestions for cool stuff to buy from the Core Rulebook only?

    Also, I've been trying to figure out whether I need anything special to Rigger Control weaponry. Is that something I also need to buy?

  22. - Top - End - #862
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    So pretty much everything went off without a hitch, but then I got to gear. I ended up spending a lot of my cash, see spoiler below:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Gear (450k):
    Medium Lifestyle (5k)

    Weapons:
    Browning Superpower (640)
    Stoner-Ares M202 (7k)
    Flechetti Pain Inducer (5k)
    Ares Alpha x4 (10.6k)
    Panther XXL (43k)
    Armtech MGL-12 x2 (10k)

    Weapon Attachments:
    Airburst Link x2 (1200)
    Gyro Mount (1400)

    Electronics and Cyberware:
    Rating 1 Control Rig (43k)
    Maser Industrial electronics Control Module (64k)

    Vehicles:
    Ares Roadmaster (53k with Control Rig);
    Toyota Gopher (26k with Control Rig)
    Yongkang gala Trinity (38k with Control Rig)
    Artemis Industries Nightwing (21k with Control Rig)

    Drones:
    Shiawase Kanmushi x5 (5k)
    MCT Fly-spy x2 (4k)
    GM Nissan Doberman x2 (10k)
    Steel Lynx Combat Drone (25k)


    But that's only 372.84k spent, leaving me nearly 100 grand left to chew through, and my brain is starting to turn to mush looking at these item tables.

    Any suggestions for cool stuff to buy from the Core Rulebook only?

    Also, I've been trying to figure out whether I need anything special to Rigger Control weaponry. Is that something I also need to buy?
    A Smartlink is a really good idea. Datajack. You'll want more than 1 month of lifestyle. Buy some Vehicle and Drone repair kits, at least, if not a shop.
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  23. - Top - End - #863
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    You know what else is good? Cerebellum Boosters. Cerebral Boosters. Possibly Narco. Reaction Enhancers. Wired Reflexes. So much good 'ware, that 100k nuyen will be gone in a flash.
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  24. - Top - End - #864
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Explosives. You can never have too much boom-boom.

    So buy a throw away trash car, a remote detonator, and a nice big pile of boom. Then use it for something totally inappropriate.
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  25. - Top - End - #865
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    You also seem to not have any skill software for the drones (forgeting the name) do you already have all bases covered with your own skills?
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  26. - Top - End - #866
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeTess View Post
    You also seem to not have any skill software for the drones (forgeting the name) do you already have all bases covered with your own skills?
    Maybe? I'm not sure I understand what that's for. What skills would my drones need?

    Here is the overall character info:

    Shadowrun 5e:

    Spoiler: Priorities
    Show
    A.) Resources (450k)
    B.) Skills
    C.) Attributes
    D.) Metatype (Human)
    E.) Magic (none).


    Spoiler: Attributes
    Show


    BOD 4/6
    AGI 4/6
    REA 6/6
    STR 1/6
    WIL 1/6
    LOG 5/6
    INT 5/6
    CHA 1/6
    Essence 6/6
    Magic N/A


    Spoiler: Qualities:
    Show


    Positive Qualities:
    Analytical Mind (5)
    Gearhead (11)
    Photographic Memory (6)
    Negative Qualities:

    Code of Honor (Metasapient AI; -15)
    Uncommon Mild Allergy (Antibiotics; -5)
    Distinctive Style: Dresses like a cowboy. (-5)


    Skills revised (36/5):

    Electronics group 5
    Pilot Walker 5
    Pilot Groundcraft 6
    Pilot Watercraft 3
    Pilot Aircraft 4
    Gunnery 6
    Cybercombat 2
    Hacking 2
    Automotive Mechanic 4
    Industrial Mechanic 4

    Knowledge Skills (20):

    Knowledge Engineering (Electrical) 6
    Knowledge Engineering (Mechanical) 6
    Interest: old world movies and tv (4)

    Languages:
    English (N), Chinese (4)

    Gear (450k):
    Medium Lifestyle (5k)

    Weapons:
    Browning Superpower (640)
    Stoner-Ares M202 (7k)
    Flechetti Pain Inducer (5k)
    Ares Alpha x4 (10.6k)
    Panther XXL (43k)
    Armtech MGL-12 x2 (10k)

    Weapon Attachments:
    Airburst Link x2 (1200)
    Gyro Mount (1400)

    Electronics and Cyberware:
    Rating 1 Control Rig (43k)
    Maser Industrial electronics Control Module (64k)

    Vehicles:
    Ares Roadmaster (53k with Control Rig);
    Toyota Gopher (26k with Control Rig)
    Yongkang gala Trinity (38k with Control Rig)
    Artemis Industries Nightwing (21k with Control Rig)

    Drones:
    Shiawase Kanmushi x5 (5k)
    MCT Fly-spy x2 (4k)
    GM Nissan Doberman x2 (10k)
    Steel Lynx Combat Drone (25k)
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2020-04-15 at 03:29 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #867
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    You're going to want to put those drones on autopilot and use their Stealth and Maneuvering autosofts. So that's a Clearsight 6 (3k), Kanmushi Maneuvering 6 (3k), and Kanmushi Stealth (3k); FlySpy Maneuvering (3k) and FlySpy Stealth (3k); <Weapon autosoft for Doberman/Steel Lynx> 6 for 3k; and some Evasion autosofts for the Doberman/Steel Lynx.
    Used to be DMofDarkness
    Old avatar by Elagune.
    Spoiler: Collection of Signature Quotes
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  28. - Top - End - #868
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Ignimortis's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Maybe? I'm not sure I understand what that's for. What skills would my drones need?

    Here is the overall character info:
    You seem to be lacking any skills that pertain to the meatworld outside of driving/rigging and drone maintenance (Perception and Sneaking are rather important), and your drones don't have relevant autosofts to do anything when you're not directly controlling them. Do you really need this Pilot Walker skill and the dog drones as much, if you can replace them with cheaper rotodrones? Also, Panther XXL is a 20F weapon, so I'm pretty sure you can't pick that up at chargen.
    Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
    Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  29. - Top - End - #869
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    No Longer The Frostfell

    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Anybody have comments about the optional rule of program degradation for hackers? (That might only be in 4e, I don't know.) It sounds similar to "State of the Art" in terms of burning money to stay decent rather than to get better -- but it only applies to stuff that corps don't support, including anything you don't let them support, so as to be harder to trace. When I first read it, I liked the tradeoff. Looking at it from the "SotA" perspective makes it seem less fun, though.
    If I recall correctly, those optional rules only apply to black market or copyright broken copies of software, and you could either pay to update them or use your software+logic to code them yourself. I think it's software+logic (desired rating, 1 week) extended test to update one program. And even then, you're only losing one point per month of non-update. Copyright protected/legal copies are automatically updated and there is no need for that. IMO, picking a couple of your most expensive programs (Agents/Hacking Programs) is woth it to only pay 10% of their cost initially, then roll a coups times to keep them updated. You could get a rating 4 Agent for 1K nuyen and hitting a threshold 4 on one of your higher skills is not that difficult.

  30. - Top - End - #870
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Eldest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Someplace Nice
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Please take some number of points in Sneaking and Etiquette. Electronic Warfare can, in a pinch, substitute for Perception by wearing some sort of sensor array and using that. It's a little cheesy but you can say it's a hopeless nerd thing, bonus points if you have those coke bottle glasses.
    LGBTA+itP

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