General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

[Lord Torath]

Just over the page on p133 it does say 'Learning spells also cost Karma (see p190) equal to the desired Force'
Ironically on p190 it makes no mention whatsoever of the Karma cost of learning spells but the above is clear enough

Ah. There it is. I read the first couple sentences of that paragraph, and skipped the last one. I need to improve my skimming skills.

Thanks!

[LibraryOgre]

2E Question: Does it cost Good Karma to learn a new spell, or increase the force of a known spell? I seem to recall it does, but I don't see that listed in the rulebook (p132) section on learning new spells. I'm not seeing anything in The Grimoire 2E, either.

As I understand it, any time you're increasing the Force of a spell, you are learning an entirely new spell. Spells can be stepped DOWN, but they cannot be stepped up without learning a new spell.

So, for example, if I learn a Force 8 Powerbolt, I can routinely cast it at force 6, which happens to be my Magic attribute, and so won't try to kill me with drain. However, if I decide a Force 8 Powerbolt is needed (or, for example, I have a Power Focus, or have Initiated and now have an 8 Magic), I can cast the force 8 powerbolt. If I learned a force 6 powerbolt at the outset, I can cast a force 1-6 powerbolt, but a force 8 would require me to learn a new spell.

[Lord Torath]

As I understand it, any time you're increasing the Force of a spell, you are learning an entirely new spell. Spells can be stepped DOWN, but they cannot be stepped up without learning a new spell.

So, for example, if I learn a Force 8 Powerbolt, I can routinely cast it at force 6, which happens to be my Magic attribute, and so won't try to kill me with drain. However, if I decide a Force 8 Powerbolt is needed (or, for example, I have a Power Focus, or have Initiated and now have an 8 Magic), I can cast the force 8 powerbolt. If I learned a force 6 powerbolt at the outset, I can cast a force 1-6 powerbolt, but a force 8 would require me to learn a new spell.

Yup, that's the way it works.

Totally unrelated question: Has anyone come up with a good price for a decker selling programs she's written? Say your decker spends a bunch of time writing Masking 8 in preparation for cooking a new masking chip. Then she "acquires" a better deck that already has a Masking 9 chip. The decker could buy a Masking 8 program for 64,000¥ (VR 2.0), including the source code. How much could she sell her code for? Also, how often could she sell it? I mean, once you've written it, making copies is trivial, so you can sell as many copies as you have people willing to pay for it.

[Fable Wright]

Yup, that's the way it works.

Totally unrelated question: Has anyone come up with a good price for a decker selling programs she's written? Say your decker spends a bunch of time writing Masking 8 in preparation for cooking a new masking chip. Then she "acquires" a better deck that already has a Masking 9 chip. The decker could buy a Masking 8 program for 64,000¥ (VR 2.0), including the source code. How much could she sell her code for? Also, how often could she sell it? I mean, once you've written it, making copies is trivial, so you can sell as many copies as you have people willing to pay for it.

A guy comes up to you on the street. "Hey, bud. I've been writing my own antivirus program, but it was obsoleted by the new Malwarebytes patch. You lookin' to buy it?"

Brand name and reputation is everything when it comes to assurances of program quality. I don't know many people who would be willing to pay 64k for software from an unknown developer that may be intentionally virus-ridden or just nowhere near as good as expected. Sadly, the corps have the edge here.

[LibraryOgre]

Yup, that's the way it works.

Totally unrelated question: Has anyone come up with a good price for a decker selling programs she's written? Say your decker spends a bunch of time writing Masking 8 in preparation for cooking a new masking chip. Then she "acquires" a better deck that already has a Masking 9 chip. The decker could buy a Masking 8 program for 64,000¥ (VR 2.0), including the source code. How much could she sell her code for? Also, how often could she sell it? I mean, once you've written it, making copies is trivial, so you can sell as many copies as you have people willing to pay for it.

A lot depends on contacts, I would say, but I would lean towards about about half that per sale, and making a few sales.

Here's my view of how it works.

I write Masking 8, which is worth 64,000. But I have to sell it, and to sell it, I have to offer it to people who are interested in dropping that much money on my work. If I have decker contacts who might be interested, they might be willing to buy it, or might know people in the market for it. I likewise might have a fixer contact who would know a guy looking for it. Or have Shadowland contacts, letting me sell it in the shadow markets. However, pretty much everyone involved is going to want a cut of the action, and I'm a pessimist... 50% is what you'll see off each sale.

How many sales? I'd say it depends on your contact's influence. The higher their influence, the more sales you'll get. If they have an influence stat (I can't remember 2e contacts), then roll that. Otherwise, improvise a stat and roll it against an 8 TN... you'd probably get more traction on a lower-end program, which more people need. 8 is rarified stuff, and so not everyone needs it, much less can run it.

[Lord Torath]

Yeah, 2E predates "Influence".

50% base cost seems entirely reasonable.

I like the target number thing for determining how many copies you can sell. Maybe an Etiquette - Matrix test with a target number equal to program rating, -1 for combat/defense (everyone likes those, they're flashy!), +0 for utilities (boring!), +1 for chip programs (MPCP, Persona, Response, etc. - I've already got an MPCP. Why would I need code for it?), +1 per programming option (Skulk, optimized, etc.), and an extra +1 per month since you wrote (or updated) the code.

[LibraryOgre]

Yeah, 2E predates "Influence".

50% base cost seems entirely reasonable.

I like the target number thing for determining how many copies you can sell. Maybe an Etiquette - Matrix test with a target number equal to program rating, -1 for combat/defense (everyone likes those, they're flashy!), +0 for utilities (boring!), +1 for chip programs (MPCP, Persona, Response, etc. - I've already got an MPCP. Why would I need code for it?), +1 per programming option (Skulk, optimized, etc.), and an extra +1 per month since you wrote (or updated) the code.

Sounds pretty good. I'd also bear in mind that you might be outsourcing that Matrix Etiquette test. I don't know if the MPCP programs would necessarily be harder to sell... there's lots of people who might be willing to outsource that. And I'd say programming options might reduce the TN... they're something you don't always get. Optimized? You mean I can fit more programs in my active memory? That's a draw, not a drawback.

[comicshorse]

Yup, that's the way it works.

Totally unrelated question: Has anyone come up with a good price for a decker selling programs she's written? Say your decker spends a bunch of time writing Masking 8 in preparation for cooking a new masking chip. Then she "acquires" a better deck that already has a Masking 9 chip. The decker could buy a Masking 8 program for 64,000¥ (VR 2.0), including the source code. How much could she sell her code for? Also, how often could she sell it? I mean, once you've written it, making copies is trivial, so you can sell as many copies as you have people willing to pay for it.

On the other hand as you're going top be selling it to Deckers, what's stopping the first guy you sell it to copying it and selling it as his own work ?

[parryhotter]

Very nice to hearing about the new people.

[Dimers]

On the other hand as you're going top be selling it to Deckers, what's stopping the first guy you sell it to copying it and selling it as his own work ?

Reputation and network. Plus the tiny possibility of the original coder sending a hit squad when he find out. But mostly reputation and network.

[Lord Torath]

On the other hand as you're going top be selling it to Deckers, what's stopping the first guy you sell it to copying it and selling it as his own work ?

Reputation and network. Plus the tiny possibility of the original coder sending a hit squad when he find out. But mostly reputation and network.

Pretty much. If word gets out that you're selling another decker's work as your own, your rep's going to tank. And everyone has their own coding "fingerprint", so it will not stay secret. You could probably sell someone else's code a couple of times, but after that, a lot of the matrix would probably be gunning for you.

[DigoDragon]

Pretty much. If word gets out that you're selling another decker's work as your own, your rep's going to tank. And everyone has their own coding "fingerprint", so it will not stay secret. You could probably sell someone else's code a couple of times, but after that, a lot of the matrix would probably be gunning for you.

I was thinking of the easter egg in the old Atari game Adventure. I imagine any decker/hacker who writes their own software is going to add those little hidden bits of code as a signature so that they can prove that a program was their own work. Now that I think about it, this also came up in the movie Tron.

[Telok]

There is also the fact that they may not be dealing in source code. Most people don't. A hardcore programmer who wants something to customize might want source, but mostly people look for stuff they can just run.

There are ways to check the hex code for strings and values. You can watch memory access and values on a running program. And anything that's dynamically compiled is pretty close to being readable. But in general a compiled program is mostly a black box product. You hit 'run' and let it go.

So if you're not dealing in source code that the customer has to compile for themselves you can put in kill switches and widgets that report back. Something that could be done is for the originator to have the program watch for copies of itself. If it runs across another copy it broadcasts a code unique to it's compile. If it gets/hears it's own code then it ard crashes.

That would mean that the person selling the program would have to compile every instance of it individually. But pirating the program would risk crashing it while legitimate buyers would never have to worry. Caveat emptor.

[Lord Torath]

I found the Mp conversion rate. Sort of. In the 2E rulebook, 100 Mp of Hermetic Library take up half a cubic meter of volume in hard copy (p 124). That's 500,000 cm³, or 5,000 cm³ per megapulse. From there you can make assumptions about the thickness of the average book and its covers and pages, and have a decent approximation of how many pages of text can fit in a megapulse.

Spoiler: Math stuff

Show

My hard-back copy of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix is 6.25 in by 9.25 in by 2.0625 in, which works out to about 1954 cm³, or two-fifths of a megapulse. That's 870-ish pages, which gives you about 2175 pages of text per megapulse. My softcover copy of 7901 Shadowrun Second Edition is 11 in by 8.5 in by 0.625 in which is 958 cm³, or a fifth of a megapulse, and has 300 pages. That implies roughly 1500 pages per megapulse. My Fields of Fire book is 11x8.5x0.25 in, or 383 cm³ (round up to 400 cm³, which is about 0.08 Mp for 120 pages, or 1500 pages per Mp. Look, they agree!

My pdf version of the 2E rulebook takes up 147 MB (and is not text searchable). Round that up to 150 MB, and you get 1 Mp = 750 MB. My Fields of Fire pdf (which is text-searchable) takes up 6 MB, implying 1 Mp = 75 MB (an order of magnitude smaller than the non-scannable 2E Rulebook). If you assume that a book on magic will be mostly text with somewhat frequent images and diagrams, the Fields of Fire version is probably closer.

In Summary: 1 Mp = 1500 pages (A4 or letter-size¹) of text, or around 75 MB.

Regarding selling programs, VR 2.0 says that the cost of the program includes the source code and an executable. Reduce the cost by 25% for just the executable. Personally, I think I'd prefer to sell just the executable, as then you can slip things into the code that make it ineffective when used against your personal deck. And Telok's kill switch if used against a legitimate copy.

1. Yes, I know that A4 and US Letter are not the same size. They are close enough for this approximation. And since, in Shadowrun, the US has done the smart thing and finally converted to the metric system, standard paper size is probably A4.
*****

New question: Can a magician target herself with the Levitate Person spell?

[comicshorse]

*****

New question: Can a magician target herself with the Levitate Person spell?

I can't see any reason why not. In fact I'm pretty sure I've seen it done in game

[LibraryOgre]

New question: Can a magician target herself with the Levitate Person spell?

Why wouldn't they be able to? I can see a number wanting to learn a lower-drain version that only functions on themselves, but the higher-drain, likely LOS, version should work just fine.

[Nifft]

LoS and mages and optics and glass... this caused us some headaches.


Here are my house rules:

- Glass & optics are not a barrier if you are touching the glass. So you can cast through a closed window or storefront or whatever if you are adjacent to the glass (and free to touch it).

- Security-Mage "fiber optics" networks also require touch, which enables asymmetric access -- the glass lenses facing the PCs might be in difficult to reach locations, behind razor wire or whatever.

- Mage-goggles are designed with lenses that join into the frames, both the nose-pads and all the way to the temple-tips, to ensure a solid contact with the mage. That's why they're expensive, it's basically a monolithic bendy lens that goes from ear to ear, with snap-on covers to make it look like regular AR glasses.

[Lord Torath]

2E Questions:

From the Grimoire, the Transform spell (p132) lets a mage turn a target into a regular critter with no memory of being anything else. The target number is the subject's Willpower, and there is no (R) following "Willpower", meaning the roll is un-resisted. That's a mistake, right? This is an involuntary spell, and the subject should get to test their willpower against the spells force to resist, right?

The voluntary forms of this spell are (Critter) Form and Shapechange, both of which state in the description that they require a voluntary subject.

Next Question: Is there an "Attack Of Opportunity" against people moving out of melee combat?

[comicshorse]

2E Questions:

From the Grimoire, the Transform spell (p132) lets a mage turn a target into a regular critter with no memory of being anything else. The target number is the subject's Willpower, and there is no (R) following "Willpower", meaning the roll is un-resisted. That's a mistake, right? This is an involuntary spell, and the subject should get to test their willpower against the spells force to resist, right?

The voluntary forms of this spell are (Critter) Form and Shapechange, both of which state in the description that they require a voluntary subject.

Yeah that's got to be a mistake. It should be resisted

Next Question: Is there an "Attack Of Opportunity" against people moving out of melee combat?

Not that I could find in the rules but that doesn't mean its not a good idea to House Rule in for your game

[Lord Torath]

Not that I could find in the rules but that doesn't mean its not a good idea to House Rule in for your game

Closest I could find was the Interception rule, where if an opponent's path is within 1 meter of you, you get a free attack, and if you inflict damage, they have to stop.

[Misereor]

LoS and mages and optics and glass... this caused us some headaches.

Speaking of which.
I've looked for it a few times, but I never actually found anything that explicitly states that astrally perceiving characters can see through glass.
I allow it, but considering how astral works (with signs and computer screens and such) I see no particular reason why objects that are transparent in realspace should be so in astral.

Incidentally that also means that I allow mages to cast through optical magnification, but not electronic. (Although this is mostly a flavor issue in later editions.)

[Lord Torath]

Incidentally that also means that I allow mages to cast through optical magnification, but not electronic. (Although this is mostly a flavor issue in later editions.)

This is how I understand it to work. I think it was mentioned in the 2E core rulebook, which means mages can cast through binoculars, but not through goggles.

Can they use astral perception through optical binoculars?

[Telwar]

This is how I understand it to work. I think it was mentioned in the 2E core rulebook, which means mages can cast through binoculars, but not through goggles.

Yup. Electronic magnification, unless bought and paid for with essence, don't do jack.

Can they use astral perception through optical binoculars?

(wrinkles brow) Um. That...might? work? My gut reaction is to say no, that doesn't *really* seem like it would plausibly work, since you're not really using your eyes to astrally perceive. But I could be wrong.

[The Random NPC]

Speaking of which.
I've looked for it a few times, but I never actually found anything that explicitly states that astrally perceiving characters can see through glass.
I allow it, but considering how astral works (with signs and computer screens and such) I see no particular reason why objects that are transparent in realspace should be so in astral.

Incidentally that also means that I allow mages to cast through optical magnification, but not electronic. (Although this is mostly a flavor issue in later editions.)

Aren't things on the astral already transparent unless they've been there for a while?

[Misereor]

Aren't things on the astral already transparent unless they've been there for a while?

I'm not sure, but I'm mainly talking about windows and glass walls, for when astrally projecting characters go scouting, and those will usually have been there for some time.

<edit>
And come to think of it, if you can see astrally via optical magnification; if someone in realspace is holding up a pair of binoculars, can an astrally projecting passer by take a look through them, if they happen to be pointing at something interesting? Seems kinda weird, even though we are talking about a world with cybernetic orcs.
</edit>

[DigoDragon]

I'm not sure, but I'm mainly talking about windows and glass walls, for when astrally projecting characters go scouting, and those will usually have been there for some time.

The issue didn't come up directly in my old campaign, but we did have a discussion about glass once. Astral perception isn't like normal vision because it isn't reliant on the ambient lighting of the room. It's a sixth sense that picks up living auras and emotions, while nonliving material appears in drab shadows. While glass is transparent in the physical plane, there's nothing special about it astral-wise, so our conclusion was that glass is opaque in the astral like any other solid material.


(This is where you wait for the team Sam to shoot out the car window before lobbing your spells.)

[Lord Torath]

2E question about wards. How does a rating point affect the strength of the ward? In the 2E Grimoire (p92), you roll Sorcery dice against a target number equal to the desired Force of the ward, and "Every two successes gives the ward 1 Rating Point as an astral barrier." How does that relate to the Force of the ward?

Also, is there a way to completely pull down a ward? SR II says that defeating a ward in astral combat just let's you pass through it; it doesn't allow anyone else through. The Grimoire says that trying to increase the duration of an existing ward can pull the whole thing down if you roll all ones on your Sorcery test to increase the duration, but I can't see any other way of bringing down a ward (other than waiting for it to come down by itself, a process that takes 1 day per success on the test to erect the barrier in the first place. Said test costs 1000 nuyen per force point and one hour per force point.

[The Random NPC]

I'm not sure, but I'm mainly talking about windows and glass walls, for when astrally projecting characters go scouting, and those will usually have been there for some time.

<edit>
And come to think of it, if you can see astrally via optical magnification; if someone in realspace is holding up a pair of binoculars, can an astrally projecting passer by take a look through them, if they happen to be pointing at something interesting? Seems kinda weird, even though we are talking about a world with cybernetic orcs.
</edit>

So I remember learning that things had to be in place for some time to cast an astral shadow, and if they didn't stay still, you would get a barely visible shape if it showed up at all. However, it seems I was wrong. A quick look through my 4e books, tells me that even a newly made car will show up on the astral and that light-based phenomena don't work. Specifically, glass is opaque and mirrors don't reflect.

[Nifft]

So I remember learning that things had to be in place for some time to cast an astral shadow, and if they didn't stay still, you would get a barely visible shape if it showed up at all. However, it seems I was wrong. A quick look through my 4e books, tells me that even a newly made car will show up on the astral and that light-based phenomena don't work. Specifically, glass is opaque and mirrors don't reflect.

It never made sense to me that an astral spirit would need to get into a car through the AC. Getting in wasn't difficult, just mildly inconvenient.

What we did was:

- Walls & windows & stuff are by default translucent, and spirits can look & see through them. Too many of them piled up are like a thick fog, so you still need to get to a location to spy on people.

- There's a simple Blood Magic ritual to put a mild ward on an area. This also makes the area opaque.

- Many "woke" people did this, so it wasn't particularly a red flag for the authorities.

- There was even a free Blood Magic ritual class at the Aztechnology store.

[Misereor]

So I remember learning that things had to be in place for some time to cast an astral shadow, and if they didn't stay still, you would get a barely visible shape if it showed up at all. However, it seems I was wrong. A quick look through my 4e books, tells me that even a newly made car will show up on the astral and that light-based phenomena don't work. Specifically, glass is opaque and mirrors don't reflect.

I guess perception checks would work very differently then. I imagine someone with high essence hiding behind a door may be easier to spot than someone with near zero essence standing right in front of you.
Not gonna implement it at my table though. Too many rules already...