General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

[Lord Torath]

Being desensitized to violence doesn't mean you don't care about it, just that seeing it doesn't necessarily cause SAN loss (if Sanity was a mechanic in Shadowrun, which I don't think it is).

But if you're going around geeking people willy-nilly, eventually you're going to geek someone who is significant to someone in power. For a definition of significant that could mean a close relative, friend, ex they still care about, someone's master or apprentice, or even a bully's target with a bully who is of the view that "No one beats up on Odie but me!" And a definition of power that could mean The Mob, the Yakuza, the Triads, a rich sim star, a Dragon, or even a Fixer or a group of runners. Now you've got an Enemy, and it's personal. They want you dead, and they have the resources and drive to get it done. The Corp might not care that you geeked their security team, but that guard's girlfriend is the favorite daughter of a powerful mob boss. And the receptionist? His sister is a Former Combat Mage and a Runner, and now her entire team is going to be hunting you as well. And if you geek someone precious to a fixer, you're already dead, you just don't know it yet.

I think it might have gotten lost a bit, but are we still arguing that non-lethal is better than lethal, or why things like Insect Shamans and Blood Mages are verboten for PCs?

[druid91]

Being desensitized to violence doesn't mean you don't care about it, just that seeing it doesn't necessarily cause SAN loss (if Sanity was a mechanic in Shadowrun, which I don't think it is).

But if you're going around geeking people willy-nilly, eventually you're going to geek someone who is significant to someone in power. For a definition of significant that could mean a close relative, friend, ex they still care about, someone's master or apprentice, or even a bully's target with a bully who is of the view that "No one beats up on Odie but me!" And a definition of power that could mean The Mob, the Yakuza, the Triads, a rich sim star, a Dragon, or even a Fixer or a group of runners. Now you've got an Enemy, and it's personal. They want you dead, and they have the resources and drive to get it done. The Corp might not care that you geeked their security team, but that guard's girlfriend is the favorite daughter of a powerful mob boss. And the receptionist? His sister is a Former Combat Mage and a Runner, and now her entire team is going to be hunting you as well. And if you geek someone precious to a fixer, you're already dead, you just don't know it yet.

I think it might have gotten lost a bit, but are we still arguing that non-lethal is better than lethal, or why things like Insect Shamans and Blood Mages are verboten for PCs?

Potentially true, but the same could be said if you just rough them up, get them demoted, or fired. Then you've got the security Guard AND his family and friends after you.

Neither. Now we're arguing over the social dynamics of fixers and whether a bloodthirsty and destructive team could find work in the shadows.

Why is that shooting his business in the foot ? He can find other teams ( less blood thirsty, wave making ones) or he can expend precious time and resources on trying to find out something that won't help his business at all. And that's assuming he even finds out how the P.C.s were found. It's not like he, unlike the Corps., retains a division of people who specialize in this kind of thing. If he doesn't, and there are sooooo many ways they could be found everyone that must be looked into, then he's just wasted the very significant time and money he put into it.
And I'm using 'sell out the P.C.s' because that's how a lot of criminals get caught. It happens, quite literally, all the time, especially to criminals who make waves by getting their gun off at any excuse. And this is with police who aren't prepared to pull the nasty stuff Corp. security can get away to 'persuade' people to talk and who don't have magic



And how many of those Elves are Shadowrunners ? not just gangers but actual 'Runners. Twenty or thirty, maybe. Same with Mages but even rarer. And a Street Samurai, a proper Street Samurai has about 300,000 NuY of cyberware on them. That's not a 'decent amount' that's a 'most people could retire on that amount
So yes 'Runners are rare. You want Gangers with a level of Boosted and a pistol you can get a small army but proper 'Runners ; with the 'Ware or the Mojo and the skills and the professional nature are rare




No I'm not talking about spending billions, I'm taking about a significant investment of time and money but by an organization that is set up to do this kind of thing. It is literally one of their major roles to find out intelligence for the corporation and prosecute action against their enemies. They do this for a living and don't have to play nice. The odds are very much they are going to catch the 'Runners
And yes they don't want to spend that time and money which is why they normally don't. Shadowrunners exist in the sweet spot of 'its too much trouble to find and kill them and we might be using them next year'. This is the unspoken agreement between the Corps and 'Runners and everybody is ,more-or-less, fine with it. Which is why smart 'Runners keep things low-key and minimal violence but the one's who insist on pissing off the high up's and making the Corp. look weak by slaughtering their workers sooner-or-later they cross the line to 'ok its worth the effort to kill these bastards'



No. I'm not. If only a few dozen know the P.C.s run together ( or there are witnesses or CCTV of the crime, disguises included) then that's a few dozen ways the P.C.s can get caught. As well, of course, as all the people those people may have told. And that's, as I've pointed out, is just one of the ways they can get caught (Caught here meaning 'Corp. are sure they performed this specific job')
And I'm not talking about paying off 'literally hundreds of thousands of people'. That's not how intelligence services work. They have a handful of informants who make their living keeping an ear open for rumours and boasts and pass them onto the Corp. where they are collated and anazlyzed.



I'm pretty sure the Corps don't send a big van into the Barrens with 'Renraku Snitches Payment' on the side

Because they're letting an underling or contractor spit on their rep? If the Fixer has a problem with their team, they put them out. Everyone else in a shadow network is being paid good money not to blab. If they're blabbing that's a security hole in the Fixers network, and do you honestly think word wouldn't spread?

And? Shadowrunners Don't look like shadowrunners. They look like normal SINless until suddenly they're running the shadows. That's the entire point of the 'its too much bother to hunt you down.' if instead you stick a big sticker on your front window 'Shadowrunner Lives Here.' you're going to find Corp Sec kicking in your door.

Ok. You're talking about paying people to go make their living tracking down rumors in a z-zone. Without giving themselves away in the process. Firstly that's skilled labor. Secondly that's danger pay. And you're going to need more than a handful of operatives to sniff out every rumor and story that a million plus people have to offer.

That's going to get expensive fast.

No, but they do have to send their well payed agents out there, who are then going to either be robbed or billed out of every cent of protection money a gang can get, while also only seeing what the gang wants them to see.

Also your idea of the rarity of shadowrunners is a bit off. Like I said. There's 20,000+ Mages in Seattle. Cyberware is cheap enough that gangs have access to it.

End game, runner legends are rare. Shadowrunners are not.

[comicshorse]

Because they're letting an underling or contractor spit on their rep? If the Fixer has a problem with their team, they put them out. Everyone else in a shadow network is being paid good money not to blab. If they're blabbing that's a security hole in the Fixers network, and do you honestly think word wouldn't spread?

But the person who informed on them (if that's how they got caught) probably had nothing to do with the Fixer, he was probably a contact the 'Runners made themselves. Is the Fixer now responsible for policing everybody the 'Runners deal with ? And how does anybody know that this person blabbed ? Is everybody mounting major investigations every time a 'Runner team get killed ?
You can't claim that 'Runners can't be caught for a crime and then claim that somebody who informed on them automatically would be

And? Shadowrunners Don't look like shadowrunners. They look like normal SINless until suddenly they're running the shadows. That's the entire point of the 'its too much bother to hunt you down.' if instead you stick a big sticker on your front window 'Shadowrunner Lives Here.' you're going to find Corp Sec kicking in your door.

I'm genuinely not sure what your point is here. I was merely pointing out that knowing the team is two humans a troll and an elf makes it easier to search for teams that are made up of two humans, a troll and a elf. Its not a automatic win, its just another step in narrowing down the suspect pool

Ok. You're talking about paying people to go make their living tracking down rumors in a z-zone. Without giving themselves away in the process. Firstly that's skilled labor. Secondly that's danger pay. And you're going to need more than a handful of operatives to sniff out every rumor and story that a million plus people have to offer.

That's going to get expensive fast.

No I'm not. I'm not saying any of that. They simply use informers and offer rewards to the locals who are in the know. Police departments do this every single day. Have you never watched a cop show or read a thriller, ? The cop talking to his informant is a cliche for a reason. And quite frankly most of the stories of the people in the Barrens can be ignored as they are 'work **** job, get paid peanuts'.
So no its not expensive.

No, but they do have to send their well payed agents out there, who are then going to either be robbed or billed out of every cent of protection money a gang can get, while also only seeing what the gang wants them to see.

No you don't waste your people you task the local informants with this. If they are so dumb the local gangers are onto them (who normally can't see beyond their next rumble) then stop paying and get someone new. As I said police departments do this every day.

Also your idea of the rarity of shadowrunners is a bit off. Like I said. There's 20,000+ Mages in Seattle. Cyberware is cheap enough that gangs have access to it.

End game, runner legends are rare. Shadowrunners are not.

And I still disagree. People with hundreds of thousands of NuY of gear are not common . Gangers may have a datajack or even (gasp) a smartgunlink but they are going to die by the dozen against a real Street Samurai. Most Mages will either never realise they have the talent or never learn more than a few spells but certainly never have the training or inclination ( or generate the Karma to use game terms) to learn magic to the extent they're in the same league as Street Samurai.
And its more than just money and magic. Its the aggression to want that lifestyle (how many of the applicants to Special Forces actually make the cut and that's taking people already trained), its the brains to work the shadows, its the professional attitude to live the life style without screwing up. You want thugs with a little cyberware and a magic, fairly common on the streets or the jungles but the first run into Corporate territory where they need subtlety and they'll be toast

[druid91]

That sounds like a terrible idea and a good way to get Organ Legged. You go with your Fixers street doc to get patched up, because they're already in on the secret, and as mentioned, payed for their discretion and have someone who's going to come down on them if they aren't discrete.

My point is that knowing that doesn't narrow the suspect pool. Because it's not like those guys even know one another in their day to day life. They get together. Do crime. Get paid. Then go back to whatever they do with their lives when not doing crime.

So.... Paying random Barrens folk who have zero loyalty to the Corp for information. Meaning they'll be encouraged to give every false lead they can to keep the paycheck rolling. And again, if they DO get a real lead. They're dead.

Gangers have hundreds of thousands of Nuyen worth of gear. You're seriously underestimating Gangers. Yeah, low ranking Gangers? Sure. They might be lucky to get a smartgun. But go gangs field attack aircraft to harass people on the highway for fun.

That's not cheap.

[Lord Torath]

Potentially true, but the same could be said if you just rough them up, get them demoted, or fired. Then you've got the security Guard AND his family and friends after you.

A security-guard's family is not going to come looking for your blood if you just roughed her up. If she gets fired, well, that's rough, but that's life. You're not likely to get extended family members gunning for you because of it. Their ire is likely to be spread among many: your team, the boss for firing them, the likely entity behind the Run, possibly even themselves for not being able to stop you (A good CorpSec guard would have stopped them! I'm a good CorpSec Guard, aren't I? Aren't I?). In any case, they're not going to be nearly as motivated to come after you if you used non-lethal means. Their family and friends will be less so ("Dude, are you still whining about that team that took you out when you were with Renraku? That was two years ago! Let it go, man, and ante up!")

You'll still make enemies, yes, and some of them will want to kill you. But most of them won't, and for most of them, it won't be a burning hatred for killing their loved one.

[comicshorse]

That sounds like a terrible idea and a good way to get Organ Legged. You go with your Fixers street doc to get patched up, because they're already in on the secret, and as mentioned, payed for their discretion and have someone who's going to come down on them if they aren't discrete.

Again I disagree though I see your point. I'd just say I'd regard it as equally foolish to have your Fixer control everything about your life. You need to have your own contacts and people who owe loyalty to you not to your Fixer. Having everything through your Fixer means he essentially controls your life. He decides the price you pay to his street-doc, if he turns on you you have nobody to turn to because all your contacts are really his, if he dies or has to vanish you're starting at scratch with nobody to call on. On a less extreme level it puts you in a rotten negotiating position when its time to haggle about payments.
Even then there will be people in the P.C.s life the Fixer can't control

My point is that knowing that doesn't narrow the suspect pool. Because it's not like those guys even know one another in their day to day life. They get together. Do crime. Get paid. Then go back to whatever they do with their lives when not doing crime.

Really ? Most groups I've played with the P.Cs have hung out with each other outside the job. I believe IRL most gangs do too, and soldiers and police. Its only natural to celebrate and share your triumphs and celebrations with the people who experienced it with you. 'Blood is thicker than water' actually means those you have shed blood with (comrades in arms) are closer than family (those you may have shared the 'water' of the womb.)
Even if they do just meet to work the other members will know something about you ( the vehicle you arrive at the meet in, what food you always prefer on stake out, which sport you listen to while waiting to go into action, what you talk about ). All these small things are pieces that slowly help identify the 'Runner
I'm reminded of 'Reservoir Dogs' where Mr White's off hand comment that he won a big bet on a Pittsburgh Stealers (?) game is enough to let Tim Roth's undercover cop identify him

o.... Paying random Barrens folk who have zero loyalty to the Corp for information. Meaning they'll be encouraged to give every false lead they can to keep the paycheck rolling. And again, if they DO get a real lead. They're dead.

And when the leads don't pan out you don't pay them. You only pay when the information is good. Also why are they dead ? Who knows what they said ? Who is constantly monitoring everyone in the Barrens in case they are talking to the cops ?
Again its all very well saying this wouldn't work but it does. Police use informers every day, all over the world

Gangers have hundreds of thousands of Nuyen worth of gear. You're seriously underestimating Gangers. Yeah, low ranking Gangers? Sure. They might be lucky to get a smartgun.

No gangs may get that money, gangers no. Profits are divided up between all the members with the leaders getting the lion's share. Most gangers will have to save up to get a smartgunlink. And that's assuming they save up and don't blow it on drugs, booze and sex first.
And as I've pointed out it takes more than just cyberware to be a Shadowrunner. A ganger with cyberware is still going to trip every alarm on his first real 'Run. Thugs with cyberware are not uncommon ( I'd say most Lieutenants in a decent gang should have some cyberware cause they are the survivors), Shadowrunners are.

But go gangs field attack aircraft to harass people on the highway for fun.

And that maybe the dumbest thing Shadowrun ever printed ( 'Native American Nations' right ?) I'd also point out 1st Ed. Shadowrun has the Ganger archetype have NO Cyberware, NO body armour and carry a streetline special and a knife
You let the attack aircraft go and I'll ignore that

[druid91]

Again I disagree though I see your point. I'd just say I'd regard it as equally foolish to have your Fixer control everything about your life. You need to have your own contacts and people who owe loyalty to you not to your Fixer. Having everything through your Fixer means he essentially controls your life. He decides the price you pay to his street-doc, if he turns on you you have nobody to turn to because all your contacts are really his, if he dies or has to vanish you're starting at scratch with nobody to call on. On a less extreme level it puts you in a rotten negotiating position when its time to haggle about payments.
Even then there will be people in the P.C.s life the Fixer can't control



Really ? Most groups I've played with the P.Cs have hung out with each other outside the job. I believe IRL most gangs do too, and soldiers and police. Its only natural to celebrate and share your triumphs and celebrations with the people who experienced it with you. 'Blood is thicker than water' actually means those you have shed blood with (comrades in arms) are closer than family (those you may have shared the 'water' of the womb.)
Even if they do just meet to work the other members will know something about you ( the vehicle you arrive at the meet in, what food you always prefer on stake out, which sport you listen to while waiting to go into action, what you talk about ). All these small things are pieces that slowly help identify the 'Runner
I'm reminded of 'Reservoir Dogs' where Mr White's off hand comment that he won a big bet on a Pittsburgh Stealers (?) game is enough to let Tim Roth's undercover cop identify him



And when the leads don't pan out you don't pay them. You only pay when the information is good. Also why are they dead ? Who knows what they said ? Who is constantly monitoring everyone in the Barrens in case they are talking to the cops ?
Again its all very well saying this wouldn't work but it does. Police use informers every day, all over the world



No gangs may get that money, gangers no. Profits are divided up between all the members with the leaders getting the lion's share. Most gangers will have to save up to get a smartgunlink. And that's assuming they save up and don't blow it on drugs, booze and sex first.
And as I've pointed out it takes more than just cyberware to be a Shadowrunner. A ganger with cyberware is still going to trip every alarm on his first real 'Run. Thugs with cyberware are not uncommon ( I'd say most Lieutenants in a decent gang should have some cyberware cause they are the survivors), Shadowrunners are.



And that maybe the dumbest thing Shadowrun ever printed ( 'Native American Nations' right ?) I'd also point out 1st Ed. Shadowrun has the Ganger archetype have NO Cyberware, NO body armour and carry a streetline special and a knife
You let the attack aircraft go and I'll ignore that

Oh, you HAVE other contacts. But you don't go to them for patching up after a run, or such. Basically, my rule of thumb is Ammo, Medical Care directly related to a run, and other such things, you get through the fixer. Basically if it's disposable, or transient, that's Fixer Network stuff. If it's something you intend to keep. You use your own contacts.

It's a common enough trope, granted. But the one game I played, had the PC's meeting up, doing crime. Then going their separate ways. Apart from the Mage and their Ex-Gang Enforcer who hooked up during the first mission. And even then, that BOTHERED the Rigger, who thought it was incriminating. (And he also didn't like the implications of what they might do to his back seats, but I digress.)

Police do. Police don't exist in Shadowrun. There is no one over-arching structure of society. That's a MAJOR THEME in shadowrun. Even the 'legitimate businesses' are dirty. The government is either corrupt or impotent and the world is balkanized into competing gangs. Some of whom spraypaint on a veneer of legitimacy and call themselves corporations. Cops can have informants, because the other departments are nominally working together, and aren't shooting their informants for letting the wrong info slip. You have TEN different sets of cops. All of which want to make sure the other nine don't get ahead. That random barrens ganger you tapped for info, can then take the info that you're looking for 'A pair of Elves, a Human, and a Troll' and sell that for twice what you're offering. And the other nine will buy it. Because it's chump change and helps them paint a picture of what you know. And for the Barrens Ganger it involves a significantly lesser chance of death by angry shadowrunner.

So not only are you at risk from the criminals. You're at risk because you're informing the wrong 'cops'.

Yeah, low ranking Gangers aren't going to have Cyber. We agree on that. But that doesn't mean Gangs lack guys with cyber. Nor that those guys aren't capable of going toe to toe with Street Samurai.

Seattle Sourcebook actually. When they talk about why you shouldn't drive on the highways at night. Because Go Gangs on Motorcycles, Cars, and Aircraft will harass and kill travelers.

[comicshorse]

Oh, you HAVE other contacts. But you don't go to them for patching up after a run, or such. Basically, my rule of thumb is Ammo, Medical Care directly related to a run, and other such things, you get through the fixer. Basically if it's disposable, or transient, that's Fixer Network stuff. If it's something you intend to keep. You use your own contacts.

As I said I disagree for the reasons I put in the last post but I do see your point. Which I think brings us to a stop on this argument

It's a common enough trope, granted. But the one game I played, had the PC's meeting up, doing crime. Then going their separate ways. Apart from the Mage and their Ex-Gang Enforcer who hooked up during the first mission. And even then, that BOTHERED the Rigger, who thought it was incriminating. (And he also didn't like the implications of what they might do to his back seats, but I digress.)

Interesting and security wise I can't help thinking the Rigger may have a point but it sounds no fun both in game and IRL. And the Mage and Enforcer obviously were 'associating'

Police do. Police don't exist in Shadowrun. There is no one over-arching structure of society. That's a MAJOR THEME in shadowrun. Even the 'legitimate businesses' are dirty. The government is either corrupt or impotent and the world is balkanized into competing gangs. Some of whom spraypaint on a veneer of legitimacy and call themselves corporations. .

Firstly police do exist in Shadowrun, they're called Knight Errant. This and the fact there are still Governments and armies and firefighters, etc I'd say means the world isn't QUITE as bad as you posit, though yes its pretty bad. And in some places exactly as bad

You have TEN different sets of cops. All of which want to make sure the other nine don't get ahead.

Do you know how many law enforcement agencies there are in the current U.S ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa..._United_States
And while they might not be at the daggers drawn that the Corps are inter agency rivalry and claim grabbing and competition for funding can get nasty and very counter productive. And that's not counting the rivalries between City and County cops, or between different departments or even precincts

That random barrens ganger you tapped for info, can then take the info that you're looking for 'A pair of Elves, a Human, and a Troll' and sell that for twice what you're offering. And the other nine will buy it. Because it's chump change and helps them paint a picture of what you know. And for the Barrens Ganger it involves a significantly lesser chance of death by angry shadowrunner.

But how does the 'Random Barrens ganger' get paid multiple times ? If he rings Ares's complaints desk or whatever number he can get and tells them 'I've got a hot tip' he's going to get laughed at. He will have come to the attention of the Corp and been recruited and have a specific way of passing on information and receiving payment for both sides security
A particularly smart informant might figure a way to get paid by two, or even more, sources. This does happen, rarely, to police or intelligence agencies. But in our case, so what ? So your rivals know you're interested in a specific group of Shadowrunners. Yes you're right it helps paint of picture of what you know but so do your Sales departments Summer Catalogue, and the news programmes you put out and a hundred other things. Its the price of doing business and if the 'Runners have pissed you off enough to go to the trouble of killing them then another Corp, maybe, getting some nuggets of information on you isn't raising the price too much

So not only are you at risk from the criminals. You're at risk because you're informing the wrong 'cops'.

So only sell to one Corp. if you want to be safe. This does, btw, completely neutralize you're previous argument

Yeah, low ranking Gangers aren't going to have Cyber. We agree on that. But that doesn't mean Gangs lack guys with cyber. Nor that those guys aren't capable of going toe to toe with Street Samurai.

Yeah as I said the Lieutenants or above. Maybe an elite squad to body guard the boss. I'd, we differ here. still say they wouldn't QUITE have the cyber or skills to go toe-to-toe with a proper Samurai. And even then, as I said, there's more to being a Shadowrunner than shooting people, even for a Street Samurai. But these types of people are were Fixers would be looking to recruit from. But not many have the smarts and cool to make the cut and fewer of them survive their first few 'Runs. But if they do and with the experience and extra Ware they've purchased, then I'd call them a Shadowrunner
Also these would be the very top level gangs were talking about here, not the local thugs.

Seattle Sourcebook actually. When they talk about why you shouldn't drive on the highways at night. Because Go Gangs on Motorcycles, Cars, and Aircraft will harass and kill travelers.

My mistake. I still say its silly. 'A custom more honoured in the breach than the observance'

[Delta]

Interesting and security wise I can't help thinking the Rigger may have a point but it sounds no fun both in game and IRL. And the Mage and Enforcer obviously were 'associating'

This so much. The described playstyle sounds exactly like what drove me more and more away from Shadowrun after playing nothing else for a decade. I guess it makes sense from a "professional" perspective, but it makes for incredibly boring games in my experience.

[druid91]

This so much. The described playstyle sounds exactly like what drove me more and more away from Shadowrun after playing nothing else for a decade. I guess it makes sense from a "professional" perspective, but it makes for incredibly boring games in my experience.

Eh. It was more a player freedom thing. The better they covered their tracks, the more they could get away with doing.

And given this is a team who set off a thermobaric warhead in the sewers on their second session....

[Anymage]

I'm wondering something here.

The books say that proper shadowrunners are an elite few, similar to the handpicked teams you get in heist movies. The books also say that shadowrunners are common enough that setting up a team of them to take a fall is no big deal, and of course in actual play we see a lot of rookie mistakes that would see someone jailed or dead long before they achieved the rank of elite criminal.

The setting has room for punk gangers taking the occasional side job for scratch, because scaring some people or breaking some stuff is easy and who doesn't like a bit of extra cash. The setting also has room for elite criminals. I'm just curious where on the spectrum most people tend to see starting characters, and where along that spectrum people think is the most interesting level for play.

[LibraryOgre]

Pink mohawk v. Mirrorshades isn't just a playstyle... it's a writing style. There's a fair amount of pink mohawk material, especially in the earlier books.

I find it useful to assume that at least some of all the information in the books is drek.

[comicshorse]

I'm wondering something here.

The books say that proper shadowrunners are an elite few, similar to the handpicked teams you get in heist movies. The books also say that shadowrunners are common enough that setting up a team of them to take a fall is no big deal, and of course in actual play we see a lot of rookie mistakes that would see someone jailed or dead long before they achieved the rank of elite criminal.

The setting has room for punk gangers taking the occasional side job for scratch, because scaring some people or breaking some stuff is easy and who doesn't like a bit of extra cash. The setting also has room for elite criminals. I'm just curious where on the spectrum most people tend to see starting characters, and where along that spectrum people think is the most interesting level for play.

It's a bit of a cop out but I've played and really enjoyed both. From a game set in London where we were barely better than ordinary Gangers ( My Physical Adept started with two points of magic and the best weapon I carried was a ramco catapult and ball bearings) to a more ordinary Seattle one where we all started as elites of are former professions (here playing an ex-Tir Tarngire Paladin)

[tyckspoon]

The setting has room for punk gangers taking the occasional side job for scratch, because scaring some people or breaking some stuff is easy and who doesn't like a bit of extra cash. The setting also has room for elite criminals. I'm just curious where on the spectrum most people tend to see starting characters, and where along that spectrum people think is the most interesting level for play.

I would assume competent-but-not-proven; runners who have done fairly well on a couple low-profile/easy runs and got themselves on some Johnson or fixer's rolodex as worth following, or people who left a previous life with applicable skills but who have not proven their worth in the shadows yet. The kind of people you might hire if you had a relatively low-risk job or two you wanted to send people on before you risked them on something higher priority, or that you would take a chance on if you had something you were told was important but don't have a budget to spend on the kind of known quantity proven runners that it probably should be.. basically taking the getting your teeth fixed at the dental academy approach to hiring Runners. They're probably good for it and they have the training and gear, but they don't have the history of work to prove it.

[druid91]

One thing I'm mildly curious about. Using Levitate + Movement, it's possible to reach some pretty impressive speeds while supermanning about. (Namely, 144 Meters Per Turn. Or roughly 56 Miles Per Hour.) As Movement and actions happen concurrently, this allows for some fairly ludicrous tactics, such as firing while dodging in and out of cover with your insane movement rate. Sure, it requires a Sustaining focus to do, but even so, seems like a decent tactic for a mage, though certainly more CONVENIENT for a Qabbalistic Mage.

Get your focus, cast your spell into it, get a respectable, if not too crazy movement rate from levitation, then use Movement to multiply it by ridiculous. Admittedly, you get better results on average from just casting Movement on a Troll who's running. But levitation doesn't come with the same downsides, and allows three dimensional movement.

[DigoDragon]

I would assume competent-but-not-proven;

Just be prepared for disappointment if you're judging my local group.

Starting Runners I would see in the unproven, but competent category as well. They're more skilled than gangers, but lack any kind of street cred.

[Nifft]

I once played a game where we were supposed to be competent & proven, but the first mission was GM trickery which any competent character should have seen through.

GM: "The job offers 10% up front, 90% upon delivery."

Me: "That looks highly suspicious. Is that really how jobs usually work around here?"

GM: "You see nothing wrong with this job."

Me: "Okay..."

-later-

GM: "Ha ha ha! The job was a scam and you only get the 10%!"

Game didn't last much past that.

-- -- --

On the other side, I've run a game where the PCs were gang-enforcers doing odd jobs and eventually leaving the gang behind. There wasn't any need for GM trickery in that game.

I liked how the PC competence rose naturally as the players were able to gain insights into & form reasonable expectations about the world around them.


How can you give "fiat competence" without trampling on player agency?

[LibraryOgre]

I once played a game where we were supposed to be competent & proven, but the first mission was GM trickery which any competent character should have seen through.

GM: "The job offers 10% up front, 90% upon delivery."

Me: "That looks highly suspicious. Is that really how jobs usually work around here?"

GM: "You see nothing wrong with this job."

Me: "Okay..."

-later-

GM: "Ha ha ha! The job was a scam and you only get the 10%!"

Game didn't last much past that.

In some ways, my frustration with earlier editions (I'm only REALLY familiar with 1-3, and kinda know 4, so maybe this got fixed) is that they didn't offer anything like GUIDELINES for how much things were going to pay. It made it frustrating as a GM, but it also made it frustrating as a player, since you had no real way to judge if this was a honey trap or just how this GM did things.

[Nifft]

In some ways, my frustration with earlier editions (I'm only REALLY familiar with 1-3, and kinda know 4, so maybe this got fixed) is that they didn't offer anything like GUIDELINES for how much things were going to pay. It made it frustrating as a GM, but it also made it frustrating as a player, since you had no real way to judge if this was a honey trap or just how this GM did things.

I don't recall much clarity or guidance from the 4e nor 4.5e books, and barely skimmed 5e (gotta correct that).

Maybe there was something in a supplement? But if there was, I didn't see it.

[DigoDragon]

In some ways, my frustration with earlier editions (I'm only REALLY familiar with 1-3, and kinda know 4, so maybe this got fixed) is that they didn't offer anything like GUIDELINES for how much things were going to pay. It made it frustrating as a GM, but it also made it frustrating as a player, since you had no real way to judge if this was a honey trap or just how this GM did things.

Since starting up a new SR4A campaign, I've been trying out a thing:

I figure out what the average karma point payout would be worth to each PC for a run. Then, I multiply that number by 2,000 and that becomes the per Runner payout for the job. The pay tends to look huge this way, but since the idea is that PCs are to convert their payouts back to karma as they see fit (at 1 karma per 2k nuyen) I'm going to see how well this system works out for the players. I'll post results in a few more weeks after the players have tried this out for a while.

[Telwar]

I don't recall much clarity or guidance from the 4e nor 4.5e books, and barely skimmed 5e (gotta correct that).

Maybe there was something in a supplement? But if there was, I didn't see it.

Not that I recall, and that was a big pain in the ass. Some of the payouts in the adventures seemed wildly low for the risk and effort involved. The suggested karma awards are, ahem, a little low, too. In the spirit of SR ripping off World of Darkness, I'm going to take a page from Exalted 3e and give a fixed 5 karma/session the next time I run.

[Nifft]

Not that I recall, and that was a big pain in the ass. Some of the payouts in the adventures seemed wildly low for the risk and effort involved. The suggested karma awards are, ahem, a little low, too. In the spirit of SR ripping off World of Darkness, I'm going to take a page from Exalted 3e and give a fixed 5 karma/session the next time I run.

One thing I did in Exalted was to reward achieving minor goals -- so if one PC wanted to find her tomb, and the party did that, they all got an XP reward -- and the specific size of the XP reward was determined by me, so it wasn't easy to abuse by setting more trivial goals.

I liked that because it kept the milestones player-driven, and I think it could be adapted to Shadowrun: give Karma directly for achieving milestones, and give Nuyen for going on jobs. You need Nuyen to live, but not all that much, and you can probably engineer a bit of tension between making ends meet vs. personal growth (yet reward the players either way).

[Delta]

The problem with that being that there is a huge difference between characters in regard to money. You're a hacker or a character running on implants? Getting decent upgrades will cost tons and tons of nuyen. You're a mage? Yeah, sure there's some stuff you need, and those foci can get expensive, but in the end, you mostly need karma. Adept? Maybe you want one weapon foci, but other than that, you can basically spend most of your cash on hookers and blow while the street samurai looks at you enviously, scraping every nuyen together and living in a shed while saving for the beta grade implant he would like to have.

In my experience, it's really tough to hit a good balance between that, I've had lots of round where GMs were really careful about handing over any significant amount of cash to the players while being generous with karma, which gives the already more powerful magical characters a big boost compared to their mundane teammates.

[Misereor]

In my experience, it's really tough to hit a good balance between that, I've had lots of round where GMs were really careful about handing over any significant amount of cash to the players while being generous with karma, which gives the already more powerful magical characters a big boost compared to their mundane teammates.

The good guy/heartless bastard karma rules from 5th edition were a failed attempt to remedy that.
But earlier editions have sensible optional rules for converting karma to cash and vice versa.

[Delta]

The good guy/heartless bastard karma rules from 5th edition were a failed attempt to remedy that.
But earlier editions have sensible optional rules for converting karma to cash and vice versa.

Yeah, they had that since the good old times of the 2nd Ed Companion. Honestly, I always thought that a horrible idea, since it breaks any suspension of disbelief for me.

If you like a more "gamey" approach and have a permanent long-term group, I'd recommend experimenting with "group rewards", give out a lump sum of karma and cash at the end of an adventure and let them divide it up between them, that of course only makes sense for a group of characters that actually trusts each other which can be hard to come by in Shadowrun.

[DigoDragon]

Yeah, they had that since the good old times of the 2nd Ed Companion. Honestly, I always thought that a horrible idea, since it breaks any suspension of disbelief for me.

One could think of converting cash to karma as a runner spending their funds to get training, such as increasing a specific stat (example: membership at the local gym), or upgrading a skill (example: on-line classes on electronic repair).

[Misereor]

One could think of converting cash to karma as a runner spending their funds to get training, such as increasing a specific stat (example: membership at the local gym), or upgrading a skill (example: on-line classes on electronic repair).

We used to have the player describe how they converted kash into karma and reverse.
Cash to karma could for instance involve paying off the gangs to leave the local residents alone, and karma to cash could involve gambling at an underground casino. Made for some mean adventure hooks too, every once in a while.

[comicshorse]

Since starting up a new SR4A campaign, I've been trying out a thing:

I figure out what the average karma point payout would be worth to each PC for a run. Then, I multiply that number by 2,000 and that becomes the per Runner payout for the job. The pay tends to look huge this way, but since the idea is that PCs are to convert their payouts back to karma as they see fit (at 1 karma per 2k nuyen) I'm going to see how well this system works out for the players. I'll post results in a few more weeks after the players have tried this out for a while.

A G.M. I played with did this but also ran a high security game so expenses were up. Just paying the rent wasn't enough you had to put aside money to bribe the local gang/crime family to keep their eyes and ears open for strangers snooping around the neighbourhood and watching your place, and for new weapons every mission, and for good fake I.D.s, and for the rent on safehouses for when things are hot and for your emergency 'Run' bag, etc
This made the payments satisfyingly high but also ensured some of the cash was funneled away in a 'Shadowrun-y' style. It also helped a bit with the Samurai needs so much more money than the Mage but giving some expenses that all classes needed to pay.

[LibraryOgre]

We used to have the player describe how they converted kash into karma and reverse.
Cash to karma could for instance involve paying off the gangs to leave the local residents alone, and karma to cash could involve gambling at an underground casino. Made for some mean adventure hooks too, every once in a while.

I love that cash to karma option, especially if you have gang contacts already (or want to spend cash to get karma to build gang contacts? That right there).

[DigoDragon]

Another session happened this past Saturday. The runner team arrived at the drop-off point to trade the MacGuffin case for their payment, but the Johnson was missing. Just her driver was found, shot dead at the scene, along with the Johnson's car. The team stuffs the dead body in the trunk of the car and they drive the vehicle off to a private garage owned by the team rigger. The hacker breaks into the deceased driver's commlink and finds that he took a picture of a licence plate before he expired. So off to the DMV matrix node to I.D. the vehicle that owns that plate.

Meanwhile, the two street sams try to figure out what tricks their recently acquired magic beast knows. They name the kirin Karma, and find that 1) she's house broken, 2) she has a levitation trick akin to the spell "Magic Fingers", and 3) she has acquired a taste for Slim-Jims.

They track the mystery vehicle to a cybernetic chop shop in a shady part of town and arrive on the scene to case the place. The rigger is in the party van scoping out the back area with a drone, the street sams are walking into the store disguised as potential customers in buying cyberware, the mage is assessing a few targets from a decent hidden spot outside, and the hacker is monitoring signal traffic. Karma is unfortunately left in the van and she's getting restless (she likes following the street sams).

I give it about 20 minutes before the runners start a fight with their winning personalities.