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  1. - Top - End - #961
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Anarchy and, to a certain extent, 6e, were also radical reworks of the rules and people hated both. I can't help but question if the same fate would befall any attempt at a serious ground-up rebuild of the mechanics.
    I think that 6e was hated because the rules were bad, not inherently due to it changing things.

    Actually, before it was released people were surprisingly upbeat about the idea of significant streamlining/simplification (which was the marketing spiel); it was when they saw the actual rules that they starting hating it.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2020-09-25 at 01:05 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #962
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    I think that 6e was hated because the rules were bad, not inherently due to it changing things.

    Actually, before it was released people were surprisingly upbeat about the idea of significant streamlining/simplification (which was the marketing spiel); it was when they saw the actual rules that they starting hating it.
    I haven't read it, but the complaint I have heard is that Edge dice were too prominent and essential.
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  3. - Top - End - #963
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I haven't read it, but the complaint I have heard is that Edge dice were too prominent and essential.
    The problem isn't that Edge dice are too prominent and essential. That part's... fine? Good in theory? We'll go with workable.

    The problem is that it was half-implemented. Combat with Edge feels a good 70% of the way there, from the core rules. You get a dynamic back and forth, you can do interesting stuff... it's just that, you know.

    Your skill with guns is a little irrelevant.
    Your armor is kinda irrelevant.
    The same extraordinarily lethal Edge maneuvers are available to NPCs, meaning that the GM has to carefully pull their punches because playing enemies optimally ends in dead PCs.

    And no one else has the Edge interactivity that combat-focused characters do, despite their roles focusing on using Edge.

    The problem wasn't the system. The core idea was cool. The problem is that only half the system is there.
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  4. - Top - End - #964
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Your skill with guns is a little irrelevant.
    Your armor is kinda irrelevant.

    That's the part that had me saying it was too prominent... Edge overrode the importance of skill.
    The Cranky Gamer
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  5. - Top - End - #965
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    From my experience the only rules that produce a lot of grumbling (outside the obvious offender of the matrix) are those around spellcasting and drain. Take4 is ubiquitous with mages in my games and the whole spellcasting process has been cited as a deterrent on playing mages. The problem as I see it is the game implicitly provides rules for baseline magic performance, leaving it up to the player to price things out on their own. If they wanted to make mages more mechanically accessible it wouldn’t be exceptionally hard to shift numbers around to present a baseline no drain effectiveness and have each spell list what it gains for risking X quantity of drain.

    But maybe they wont want to dumb it down too much. Anything coherent will be a reprieve from CGL at this point.
    That's interesting, because I find Drain a very elegant system outside of the fact that it takes three rolls to resolve a spell. I've redone the process, and it's now two rolls at best (if there's an opposed roll), but choosing Force even in default 5e seems very intuitive for me. You can, on average, soak your Drain Resist dice divided by three. So a safe bet would be a Force that puts drain at (that value-1), a somewhat risky one would be (that value+1), and anything beyond that range is either very safe (which you should always use if you can) or quite unsafe (which is what you use when the risk is worth the reward, i.e. when you really wanna live through today).

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Anarchy and, to a certain extent, 6e, were also radical reworks of the rules and people hated both. I can't help but question if the same fate would befall any attempt at a serious ground-up rebuild of the mechanics.
    Personally, as someone who hated both Anarchy and 6e, they were hated not because they were radical reworks of the rules, it's because they went in completely wrong directions. Both of those attempted to shift the game into more narrative play, which isn't what Shadowrun players want. What players want, IMO, is a good gamist system with some deference to simulationism (as in, you can't make guns shoot without reloading eventually, or use the Matrix a thousand feet under the sea).

    Prune the extraneous modifiers, reduce the gear option bloat, reduce the skill bloat (but not to the extent 6e does - few players want their pistolero to be automatically good with ALL THE GUNS or their mechanic to be automatically good at shooting a turret for some reason). Make metatypes more accessible but still costly (6e goes the other way, playing a human is useless). Stop nerfing combat characters to "give everyone a chance to participate in combat", this is not D&D despite all your efforts to ape it (poorly). Just streamline the game, don't make it a different game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Your skill with guns is a little irrelevant.
    Your armor is kinda irrelevant.
    The same extraordinarily lethal Edge maneuvers are available to NPCs, meaning that the GM has to carefully pull their punches because playing enemies optimally ends in dead PCs.
    Exactly. 6e trades general competence for "hero moments", except those aren't actually locked behind anything. You can have anyone build up Edge and use it on Anticipation, and a combat character who doesn't use that move will be LESS useful than an Anticipation spammer. Armor doesn't do jack, and I've heard from multiple sources it's because the line designer absolutely hates the idea of soak tanks. Due to those two reasons, there is no longer an actual mechanical point to playing a Street Samurai in 6e, for example.
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  6. - Top - End - #966
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    Personally, as someone who hated both Anarchy and 6e, they were hated not because they were radical reworks of the rules, it's because they went in completely wrong directions. Both of those attempted to shift the game into more narrative play, which isn't what Shadowrun players want. What players want, IMO, is a good gamist system with some deference to simulationism (as in, you can't make guns shoot without reloading eventually, or use the Matrix a thousand feet under the sea).

    Prune the extraneous modifiers, reduce the gear option bloat, reduce the skill bloat (but not to the extent 6e does - few players want their pistolero to be automatically good with ALL THE GUNS or their mechanic to be automatically good at shooting a turret for some reason). Make metatypes more accessible but still costly (6e goes the other way, playing a human is useless). Stop nerfing combat characters to "give everyone a chance to participate in combat", this is not D&D despite all your efforts to ape it (poorly). Just streamline the game, don't make it a different game.
    Which is why I went with a Savage Worlds chassis; it's a gamist system, where you choose your competency by your skill choices and Edges, and enhance them with Advances. The design tools make it simple to balance metatypes, with human flexibility (free Novice Edge) serving as good balance to metahuman specialization.

    While it does reduce skills to the point where your pistolero is theoretically equally competent with every gun (all being Shooting), Edges can make him a lot more competent with some things... "Trademark Weapon", and other Edges that make him better with guns than a Decker or Mage who, for some reason, have the same skill with Shooting as he does.
    The Cranky Gamer
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  7. - Top - End - #967
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Hey you Shadowrun-savvy people.

    I'm about to attempt to run a game using the 4th edition (Anniversary) rules. However, as I am a Shadowrun-rookie, I have a few questions about the rules and later on the setting. But let's start with the rules.

    So, for those of you familiar with the 4th edition, what are the main "pitfalls" so to speak? All rules can be broken one way or another, so what breaks 4th edition? Where are the rules bad or lead to unfun games? Do you have any houserules that you would suggest? Any specific spell or gear you're simply ignoring etc etc? Basically I am looking for what you think is bad with the system, and how you tried to fix it.

    When posting your answer (hopefully there'll be at least one), please also include the type of game you usually run, what tone you're trying to achieve. That will be important in order to judge if the same rules will be a problem for me, or if the suggested houserule will also work well in my game.
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    Hey you Shadowrun-savvy people.

    I'm about to attempt to run a game using the 4th edition (Anniversary) rules. However, as I am a Shadowrun-rookie, I have a few questions about the rules and later on the setting. But let's start with the rules.

    So, for those of you familiar with the 4th edition, what are the main "pitfalls" so to speak? All rules can be broken one way or another, so what breaks 4th edition? Where are the rules bad or lead to unfun games? Do you have any houserules that you would suggest? Any specific spell or gear you're simply ignoring etc etc? Basically I am looking for what you think is bad with the system, and how you tried to fix it.

    When posting your answer (hopefully there'll be at least one), please also include the type of game you usually run, what tone you're trying to achieve. That will be important in order to judge if the same rules will be a problem for me, or if the suggested houserule will also work well in my game.
    Gonna list a few common ones that I remember from back in the day...

    Problem: Narrow bursts are very powerful and make any gun that isn't capable of at least Burst Fire useless. Also, nobody but samurai is capable of surviving a narrow burst if it hits, and it's very likely to hit due to dodge pools only being REA (+Dodge if you go Full Defense).
    Proposed solution: Remove narrow bursts as a whole - only wide bursts exist. To compensate for ease of hitting, adopt 5e's basic defense method - REA+INT.

    Problem: Direct Combat spells are too good and let a mage just drop a roomful of enemies with one spell.
    Proposed solution: Again, adopt the 5e principle - Direct Combat spells have no base damage, their only damage comes from net hits on the spellcasting+magic opposed test. However, net hits do not increase Drain as normal - otherwise there's no reason to ever use Direct Combat spells.

    Problem: Matrix is somewhat messy and doesn't take a lot of investment to be good at, also it's agents all the way down
    Proposed solution: All Matrix tests that use program ratings now use Logic+relevant skill already used in the test. Ban Agents, I guess?

    Can't say I ran in a really unusual game. Just shadowrunners, doing corporate espionage and other things for money and favours. Some characters were highly professional hired criminals, some were just people who needed to survive. Basically, the houserules I listed were made with general system health in mind, not a specific playstyle.
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  9. - Top - End - #969
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    Gonna list a few common ones that I remember from back in the day...

    Problem: Narrow bursts are very powerful and make any gun that isn't capable of at least Burst Fire useless. Also, nobody but samurai is capable of surviving a narrow burst if it hits, and it's very likely to hit due to dodge pools only being REA (+Dodge if you go Full Defense).
    Proposed solution: Remove narrow bursts as a whole - only wide bursts exist. To compensate for ease of hitting, adopt 5e's basic defense method - REA+INT.

    Problem: Direct Combat spells are too good and let a mage just drop a roomful of enemies with one spell.
    Proposed solution: Again, adopt the 5e principle - Direct Combat spells have no base damage, their only damage comes from net hits on the spellcasting+magic opposed test. However, net hits do not increase Drain as normal - otherwise there's no reason to ever use Direct Combat spells.

    Problem: Matrix is somewhat messy and doesn't take a lot of investment to be good at, also it's agents all the way down
    Proposed solution: All Matrix tests that use program ratings now use Logic+relevant skill already used in the test. Ban Agents, I guess?

    Can't say I ran in a really unusual game. Just shadowrunners, doing corporate espionage and other things for money and favours. Some characters were highly professional hired criminals, some were just people who needed to survive. Basically, the houserules I listed were made with general system health in mind, not a specific playstyle.
    Thanks! These are precisely the things I am looking for.
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  10. - Top - End - #970
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    Problem: Matrix is somewhat messy and doesn't take a lot of investment to be good at, also it's agents all the way down
    Proposed solution: All Matrix tests that use program ratings now use Logic+relevant skill already used in the test. Ban Agents, I guess?
    One thing I played around with for 4e Matrix actions was to steal from magic:

    Tests are Attribute+Skill, but are limited in number of hits by the rating of the program. Use a poor program, and you won't be able to do much.

    The example I gave is HTML programming. I can write HTML in NotePad (a rating 1 program), but it will take longer, since I will have to hand-check all of my HTML tags and look up how to do what I want to do.

    Give me a slightly more robust program (WordPad, rating 2), and I can get it done faster by using a few different tricks; hand-highlighting all my tags so I make sure I close them, for example.

    Give me a custom-built HTML suite, and I can do it really quickly... it will keep track of my tags, tell me when things are open and closed, have macros for some common tasks, and a built-in library to help me look things up.

    For the simplest of pages, NotePad is fine... I just need 1 hit. But with the good software, my skills and talents can go towards writing and design, not making sure that I close every tage.
    The Cranky Gamer
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  11. - Top - End - #971
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    Personally, as someone who hated both Anarchy and 6e, they were hated not because they were radical reworks of the rules, it's because they went in completely wrong directions. Both of those attempted to shift the game into more narrative play, which isn't what Shadowrun players want. What players want, IMO, is a good gamist system with some deference to simulationism (as in, you can't make guns shoot without reloading eventually, or use the Matrix a thousand feet under the sea).

    Prune the extraneous modifiers, reduce the gear option bloat, reduce the skill bloat (but not to the extent 6e does - few players want their pistolero to be automatically good with ALL THE GUNS or their mechanic to be automatically good at shooting a turret for some reason). Make metatypes more accessible but still costly (6e goes the other way, playing a human is useless). Stop nerfing combat characters to "give everyone a chance to participate in combat", this is not D&D despite all your efforts to ape it (poorly). Just streamline the game, don't make it a different game.
    To paraphrase - it sounds like that would be largely be to Shadowrun 4e what D&D 5e was to 3.5. While 5e certainly took some bits from 4e, earlier editions, and some new stuff mixed in, more than anything IMO it feels like a streamlined/simplified version of 3.5.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2020-09-28 at 07:02 AM.

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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Fully in agreement here. 6e isn't bad because it makes some big changes, it's terrible because the way those changes were implemented is just objectively awful and had no chance of ever succeeding the way they were going about things (you simply cannot implement big changes while at the same time trying to just build on the same system you already have changing as little as possible to save time, that will never work)

    A streamlined 4e that actually works? Sign me up right now.

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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    To paraphrase - it sounds like that would be largely be to Shadowrun 4e what D&D 5e was to 3.5. While 5e certainly took some bits from 4e, earlier editions, and some new stuff mixed in, more than anything IMO it feels like a streamlined/simplified version of 3.5.
    Yes, but actually no. I am also a D&D 3.5 fan, and while I admit that it was somewhat clunky and unwieldy in lots of places, D&D 5e was a step too far, because outside of combat it's basically not a game, it's a magical tea party where some arbitrary dice rolls are involved but they're invented by the GM and the dice matter more than your capabilities.

    Now, if Shadowrun Remixed would be something that keeps the breadth of options (and at least some tactical depth) of 4e/5e, but removes all the clunk without actually harming depth (a lot, some depth will always be lost with the clunk)? Sign me the frag up.
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    Yes, but actually no. I am also a D&D 3.5 fan, and while I admit that it was somewhat clunky and unwieldy in lots of places, D&D 5e was a step too far, because outside of combat it's basically not a game, it's a magical tea party where some arbitrary dice rolls are involved but they're invented by the GM and the dice matter more than your capabilities.

    Now, if Shadowrun Remixed would be something that keeps the breadth of options (and at least some tactical depth) of 4e/5e, but removes all the clunk without actually harming depth (a lot, some depth will always be lost with the clunk)? Sign me the frag up.
    Oh sure - too much "GM May I" in 5e for my taste. Though from modules, it feels like they DO have ballpark numbers in mind, they just didn't want to give ammunition for people to argue with their GMs about it if they got it wrong. Still not my taste as I'd prefer a few ballpark numbers to go off of, but I can see the reasoning.

    Plus, arguably that was something which they took from the older editions, which were generally much more vague about what could be done out of combat, with only a few classes even having skills. I believe that every Shadowrun edition had in-depth rules for various skills and what could be done out of combat. (Probably too in-depth for things like the matrix, where everyone else has to twiddle their thumbs for the better part of an hour. :P)

    But I was talking more of the streamlining/simplification in the very broad brush strokes. Keep the general vibe of the earlier edition while making it much easier to get into, and without as extreme of floor/ceiling power levels.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2020-09-28 at 08:22 AM.

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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    Oh sure - too much "GM May I" in 5e for my taste. Though from modules, it feels like they DO have ballpark numbers in mind, they just didn't want to give ammunition for people to argue with their GMs about it if they got it wrong. Still not my taste as I'd prefer a few ballpark numbers to go off of, but I can see the reasoning.

    Plus, arguably that was something which they took from the older editions, which were generally much more vague about what could be done out of combat, with only a few classes even having skills. I believe that every Shadowrun edition had in-depth rules for various skills and what could be done out of combat. (Probably too in-depth for things like the matrix, where everyone else has to twiddle their thumbs for the better part of an hour. :P)

    But I was talking more of the streamlining/simplification in the very broad brush strokes. Keep the general vibe of the earlier edition while making it much easier to get into, and without as extreme of floor/ceiling power levels.
    Well, I'd like to think that's basically what I've done thus far. I hate that I have nothing to show for it to people here and on Reddit, because everything I wrote isn't in English, and I'd have to translate the whole 260-page book into English to give people a good look at it. Still, I'll definitely post it when that's done.
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    So, another question.

    Is there anything in the rules that doesn't quite mesh with the setting? As in, the setting is described one way, but the rules kind of imply things being differently?
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Well there is the usual stuff, if you consider how insanely much money a mage could make just by doing totally legal stuff, it's completely implausible where all the shadowrunning spellslingers come from.

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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Well there is the usual stuff, if you consider how insanely much money a mage could make just by doing totally legal stuff, it's completely implausible where all the shadowrunning spellslingers come from.
    Oh, it's not much of a question. All the crazies who cannot conform to the corporate code tend to be unemployable, so that's your typical shadowrunner mage!
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Well there is the usual stuff, if you consider how insanely much money a mage could make just by doing totally legal stuff, it's completely implausible where all the shadowrunning spellslingers come from.
    I'm not up with the post 3e lore but didn't magicians need rather a lot of expensive licenses for practically every spell, category of spell, and other ability in order to operate legally? I recall the explanation being that any mage with binoculars and a energy ball spell effectively had an invisible rocket launcher, thus the licenses had high availability ratings on top of costing a lot.
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    No, not really any more expensive than regular gun licenses and stuff, not sure how 5 covered it, only talking about earlier editions.

    And there's **** like making oricalcum and foci and stuff that's so insanely profitable compared to the time and effort, there's just no reason to ever do anything even remotely illegal (pretty much every group I know that had actually bothered to look up the rules for making magical stuff yourself had an agreement that no one would ever build anything to sell, only for personal use)

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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Well there is the usual stuff, if you consider how insanely much money a mage could make just by doing totally legal stuff, it's completely implausible where all the shadowrunning spellslingers come from.


    That's interesting. I've always been one of those people "aware" of Shadowrun, and have played a few sessions and the recent CRPGs, but I never got that into it. (Largely for the mechanical issues discussed above.)

    Partly that issue sounds like the standard problem of TTRPGs of trying to make the system actually a reflection of the whole world rather than just what the game's about.

    But really - that seems like a pretty easy fluff fix. Just have all corporate mages be in a sort of hardcore/cutthroat nepotism-based guild. Any mage who wasn't raised within the guild is shunned because they don't want the competition, with the official rationalization that they're not safe etc. without the proper training and can't be allowed to work as a mage. And any corp which officially hired non-guild mages would be black-balled by said guild.

    It wouldn't be that hard for a case to make considering how dangerous mages actually are. After all, in the real world stylists have convinced the government that braiding hair is so dangerous that people need to be certified after nearly a year of training.

    It would basically force all mages not within the guild to go into either shadowrunning, or into doing shady favors for the higher-ups within the mage guild in an attempt to gain entry to it. And who is going to try to cross a cabal filled with most of the world's most powerful mages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    No, not really any more expensive than regular gun licenses and stuff, not sure how 5 covered it, only talking about earlier editions.

    And there's **** like making oricalcum and foci and stuff that's so insanely profitable compared to the time and effort, there's just no reason to ever do anything even remotely illegal (pretty much every group I know that had actually bothered to look up the rules for making magical stuff yourself had an agreement that no one would ever build anything to sell, only for personal use)
    What might help there is an added a rule that that's the cost/effort to produce one which is only attuned to you while creating one which will work for someone else is much pricier.

    But again - that sort of issue seems almost inevitable when a system tries to have rules for economics outside of their core gameplay loop.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2020-09-30 at 02:28 PM.

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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Oh, and concerning SR6, one example where the rules have absolutely hilarious in-world-implications is vehicles. As written in the book, basically every car in the world (or at least a vast majority of them) not driven by a professional highly trained and equipped driver will immediately crash the second anything happens that requires a handling test (which includes stuff like "follow another car without being spotted") because the Handling thresholds combined with the dice pool modifiers as soon as you drive faster than walking pace (oh and here I thought situational modifiers were supposed to be a thing of the past and replaced by Edge stuff, too bad the people who wrote that part of the book apparently never got that memo) means most people or vehicles on autopilot will fail that test almost every single time and immediately crash.

    Another part of the book where it's painfully obvious this was never playtested even once before going in.

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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    So, I have another question about something I've been trying to wrap my head around, namely spirits.

    I am sure it is explain somewhere, but sometimes it is hard to find decent information in the rulebook.

    So, question about where spirits exist? I guess normally they exist in some other metaplane, but is it possible that they can appear in the normal world by themselves? Or are all "free spirits" former summoned ones? Then, when on the normal plane, do they exist only astrally, only physically or both? Can they move between the astral realm and the physical realm at will? Can they interact with stuff on the physical realm when/if they exist astrally (and vice versa)? If they are physical, can they be injured with normal weapons (even if they're basically a fire or water spirit)?
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    So, I have another question about something I've been trying to wrap my head around, namely spirits.

    I am sure it is explain somewhere, but sometimes it is hard to find decent information in the rulebook.

    So, question about where spirits exist? I guess normally they exist in some other metaplane, but is it possible that they can appear in the normal world by themselves? Or are all "free spirits" former summoned ones? Then, when on the normal plane, do they exist only astrally, only physically or both? Can they move between the astral realm and the physical realm at will? Can they interact with stuff on the physical realm when/if they exist astrally (and vice versa)? If they are physical, can they be injured with normal weapons (even if they're basically a fire or water spirit)?
    So, here's how I understand it.

    Spirits* live in the metaplanes. They can be called forth by magicians (or conjurers), and exist in those planes. For the most part, they are "stuck" there, just like most metahumans are stuck on the Material Plane. Now, we know that some metahumans can project to other planes... basic astral projection, and, with initiation, project themselves to metaplanes.

    Free spirits, though, free spirits are a bit different, and come in two classes. The first is summoned spirits who go free. If they are standard spirits, they may be "stuck" here. The second class of free spirits are those who were not summoned, or great spirits who went free... they're more akin to a magician on a metaplanar quest. They have the ability to go back, but choose not to, for spirity reasons.

    Now, there was, at least in editions I am familiar with, two levels of spiritual existence on the Material plane. The first is Manifestation... you show up as a visible thing to beings on the Material, but can't really affect it directly. The second is Materialization, where they more or less make a physical body out of magic. If they Manifest, they can't do anything, save through magic. If they materialize, they have a physical body.... but it's made out of magic, so it's immune to normal weapons in proportion to their Force.

    *Aside from Watchers. Watchers are, IMO, more akin to a thought that the magician makes real for a little while. This explains why, like many thoughts, they are quite dumb.
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Thanks Mark!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    If they materialize, they have a physical body.... but it's made out of magic, so it's immune to normal weapons in proportion to their Force.
    What does that mean? That their Force negatives a certain DV?
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    What does that mean? That their Force negatives a certain DV?
    That's how it worked in 2nd Edition. They got armor against 'mechanical' damage equal to twice their Force. Mechanical, in this case, means not directly from their attacker. If you shoot a gun or crossbow or throw a grenade, the spirit got the armor bonus, as the damage is caused by an inanimate object. The gun provides the energy behind the bullet, not the person holding the gun. If you attacked with a melee weapon or a bow (or a thrown knife), they didn't get the armor bonus, because your own body directly provides the energy behind the attack.
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    If they Manifest, they can't do anything, save through magic. If they materialize, they have a physical body.... but it's made out of magic, so it's immune to normal weapons in proportion to their Force.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    What does that mean? That their Force negatives a certain DV?
    That is edition-dependent. As Torath said, in 1st-3rd, it provided a lot of armor for anything that wasn't a hand-weapon (I remember a story in one book about a samurai having to switch to spurs to fight a fire elemental), but I don't remember how it works in later editions.
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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    That is edition-dependent. As Torath said, in 1st-3rd, it provided a lot of armor for anything that wasn't a hand-weapon (I remember a story in one book about a samurai having to switch to spurs to fight a fire elemental), but I don't remember how it works in later editions.
    In 4th-5th it works as Hardened Armor equal to twice Force against nonmagical attacks. Hand weapons don't get a free ride, but there are martial arts and weapon foci that work that have no ranged equivalent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    In 4th-5th it works as Hardened Armor equal to twice Force against nonmagical attacks. Hand weapons don't get a free ride, but there are martial arts and weapon foci that work that have no ranged equivalent.
    Yup. One of my players persuaded me that energy weapons (lasers, tasers) should work, not quite sure if that's RAW. I assume the fluff to critters with Immunity to Normal Weapons being affected by a bunch of .45 rounds is that the use of those has at least a minimal psychic imprint on them. Or somesuch crap like that.

    Would be nice if they actually added Immunity to Normal Weapons to the spirits' entries in SR4. It's not in the 20A edition, at least.

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    Default Re: General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telwar View Post
    Yup. One of my players persuaded me that energy weapons (lasers, tasers) should work, not quite sure if that's RAW. I assume the fluff to critters with Immunity to Normal Weapons being affected by a bunch of .45 rounds is that the use of those has at least a minimal psychic imprint on them. Or somesuch crap like that.

    Would be nice if they actually added Immunity to Normal Weapons to the spirits' entries in SR4. It's not in the 20A edition, at least.
    Yeah I'm pretty sure that NOT RAW. As I remember the theory is you're not attacking the Spirit with the weapon but with the user's Will and Spirit. Hence weapons that you wield with your own hands (melee weapons, thrown knives, hand pulled bows) work. Stuff you just point at the Spirit (which would definitely include energy weapons) don't.

    But Kudos to your player. He's learned the vital rule what you can do is as large as what you can persuade the G.M. you can do. (See 'Mage: The Ascension')
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