General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

[Ignimortis]

Yup. One of my players persuaded me that energy weapons (lasers, tasers) should work, not quite sure if that's RAW. I assume the fluff to critters with Immunity to Normal Weapons being affected by a bunch of .45 rounds is that the use of those has at least a minimal psychic imprint on them. Or somesuch crap like that.

Would be nice if they actually added Immunity to Normal Weapons to the spirits' entries in SR4. It's not in the 20A edition, at least.

Immunity to Normal Weapons is a consequence of Materialization for spirits in 4e (and 5e). I.e., they don't have it in their astral form, but no mundane weapon exists in Astral, so it's a moot question. Therefore, at any point a mundane can interact with a spirit normally, they'd have Immunity to Normal Weapons.

[Xlsfd]

I know this is a problem with all TTRPGs, but in my opinion, the rules require too much interpretation by the GM. For example, one of the basic Decker abilities is to try to make your opponent's programs crash. There is nothing written in the rules whether or not this also works against programs that have their own personas (that is, Agents and/or IC programs).

[Ignimortis]

I know this is a problem with all TTRPGs, but in my opinion, the rules require too much interpretation by the GM. For example, one of the basic Decker abilities is to try to make your opponent's programs crash. There is nothing written in the rules whether or not this also works against programs that have their own personas (that is, Agents and/or IC programs).

Don't think that's much of a problem in this case. Agents take up one of your program slots, and as such, they can be crashed by targeting the decker, and IC doesn't actually qualify as a "program" since the host does not, technically, run any programs in its' slots, because it doesn't have any.

Sure, you could try and extrapolate that the IC limit is actually representative of the program slots of the host, but what do you target to crash a program, then? There isn't a host persona for that, and thus you can't actually Crash anything.

[Xervous]

A bit late as I don’t check this part of the forums all too frequently but one critical fix for 4e combat is making recoil persist through IPs, only permitting recoil to reset after a pass of no shooting (or more favorably using a take aim action).

I’ll echo the REA+INT as crucial for giving a semblance of a chance at dodging, though I did not find narrow bursts problematic with the following assumptions.

Most any gun that would be horribly lethal for spraying that much lead will be frakkin obvious and moderately to heavily modded to compensate for the recoil. In such scenarios where these weapons are being used it is not unreasonable to expect a comparable degree of armor tuning. If you’re digging into Arsenal for extra recoil comp or are simply toting an Ares Alpha (don’t you point that at me I want no recordings getting to Corp when they finally track down that nova hot stolen piece) it makes sense enough to mix in fitted body armor and the other stackable goodies which IIRC parks your soak pool at 3BOD + STR + 3 as opposed to the 3BOD baseline. (For a 3 STR character notice how this cancels out the +2 DV of short narrow burst). For quieter jobs the GM should be enforcing limited access to gear as appropriate, cheap untraceable throwaway pieces that can’t hold sustained fire and appropriately armored disguises etc.

[Telwar]

Yeah I'm pretty sure that NOT RAW. As I remember the theory is you're not attacking the Spirit with the weapon but with the user's Will and Spirit. Hence weapons that you wield with your own hands (melee weapons, thrown knives, hand pulled bows) work. Stuff you just point at the Spirit (which would definitely include energy weapons) don't.

But Kudos to your player. He's learned the vital rule what you can do is as large as what you can persuade the G.M. you can do. (See 'Mage: The Ascension')

Yup. I figured he succeeded on the Social Attack, using my known antipathy towards selective immunity to physics, and he got the bonus from one of my favorite quotes being "Energy is energy, whether generated by science or sorcery.", which I'm pretty sure he didn't know (specifically see the Gargoyles entry, and yes, sorry for TvTropes linkage).

Immunity to Normal Weapons is a consequence of Materialization for spirits in 4e (and 5e). I.e., they don't have it in their astral form, but no mundane weapon exists in Astral, so it's a moot question. Therefore, at any point a mundane can interact with a spirit normally, they'd have Immunity to Normal Weapons.

Aha, thank you!

TBH, it's still annoying, but I'll probably live.

[Delta]

Yup. I figured he succeeded on the Social Attack, using my known antipathy towards selective immunity to physics, and he got the bonus from one of my favorite quotes being "Energy is energy, whether generated by science or sorcery.", which I'm pretty sure he didn't know (specifically see the Gargoyles entry, and yes, sorry for TvTropes linkage).

But following that logic, shouldn't any regular weapon work just as well? Bullets, swords, shrapnel, thrown rocks, all of that has plenty of kinetic energy hitting the spirit.

[comicshorse]

But following that logic, shouldn't any regular weapon work just as well? Bullets, swords, shrapnel, thrown rocks, all of that has plenty of kinetic energy hitting the spirit.

Heh, meaningless coincidence time. I recently suggested to a GM of a Star Wars game that my Jedi should be able to be immune to flame throwers by absorbing the energy of them to which he replied that by that argument I should be immune to rocks/swords/bullets to by absorbing the kinetic energy

[Lorsa]

I just came up with another question (I will likely have many over the coming month).

The books list the Nuyen price of many goods, but certainly not ALL goods. Is there some way I can convert Nuyen to a contemporary currency in order to figure out the cost of other stuff, should it come up.

Obviously the cost of goods is affected by other things than simple currency translation, but it might give me some idea.

[Ignimortis]

I just came up with another question (I will likely have many over the coming month).

The books list the Nuyen price of many goods, but certainly not ALL goods. Is there some way I can convert Nuyen to a contemporary currency in order to figure out the cost of other stuff, should it come up.

Obviously the cost of goods is affected by other things than simple currency translation, but it might give me some idea.

Frankly, the nuyen is supposed to be equal to an US dollar (hilariously, the UCAS dollar is about 50% of that in Shadowrun). So it's (supposed to be) a pretty direct 1:1 conversion between USD and nuyen.

[BisectedBrioche]

IIRC 5e suggests using the Big Mac principle. Cheap food retains a consistent value across most societies.

1 nuyen will get you the in universe version of a Big Mac. So check how much they go for these days and adjust accordingly.

[LibraryOgre]

I am firmly of the "If it doesn't have a listed price, 1 USD = 1 Nuyen" school. It's not a perfect system, but I am very lazy and it works well enough.

[Lorsa]

Thanks again for the advice, that helps a lot!

Then I can use my own imagination to adjust for what a potential shadowun future might do with the prices, but at least I have something to go on.

Also, I guess it's listed somewhere in the book, but is there a name for Nuyen fractions? Like if I by a cinnamon bun for 0.3 Nuyen, that would be 3 or 30.... what?

[Delta]

Since the Nuyen officially exists purely as a digital currency, there is probably not a need to give fractions of it an official name.

Personally, I'd just have people call it "Nucents" or something like that, since "cents" is literal enough to work as a name for a fraction of any modern currency, and to distinguish it from the somewhat still around UCAS Dollar/Cent.

[DigoDragon]

Personally, I'd just have people call it "Nucents" or something like that.

It sounds like "nuisance", which says everything about my relationship with fractions. XD


My runner group is getting ready to rob a Crash Carriage warehouse of its medical supplies for a group of street docs. First, they need to do some legwork, which includes breaking into one of the company offices to get data on the warehouse location they want to hit (there are a few) as well as inventory to steal.

What I love about this group is that they kept their cleaning crew disguises from their first mission and are likely to use it again for the office. I feel like the cleaning company they are impersonating is gonna be hella confused when this job goes down. XD

[CharonsHelper]

IIRC 5e suggests using the Big Mac principle. Cheap food retains a consistent value across most societies.

1 nuyen will get you the in universe version of a Big Mac. So check how much they go for these days and adjust accordingly.

A quick Google search shows that in the '86 the Big Mac was $1.60. So - consider Shadowrun's nuyen to be about the value of an early 80s dollar?

[Lorsa]

Oh, now I got yet another question! This time regarding Karma.

So, when reading the rules about character progression, one thing I immediately wanted to change was the exponential Karma cost increase in regards to attributes and skills. Since build points during character creation is linear, I want Karma to be the same (well, one way would be to make the opposite change I guess). That's basically something I do with every system that has a difference between creation and progression (one being linear, the other exponential).

However, I don't know how this interacts with other parts of the system - like for example spell costs. Do I need to adjust the cost of spells accordingly (e.g. down)? Is there anything you can buy during character progression that you could NOT buy during character creation? Otherwise I could simply award build points instead of karma (or equate the two).

[Delta]

Personally, I'd just do away with build points/priorities and stuff altogether and as long as your players are at least somewhat comfortable with the system, building characters from the ground up with Karma is easy enough, every edition has alternative character creation options that handle it well so people aren't forced to either minmax at creation or be hopeless later on.

[LibraryOgre]

If you switch from Karma to a straight BP system, you either need to really drop BPs, or simply accept that your game will get stronger, faster. I would also note that such a system somewhat benefits karma-driven characters... your street sams will need to scrape together money to get their new upgrade, but your mages will blaze through with their reduced build costs. (That's part of why I made most upgrades in Savage Shadows edge-based; street sams who want a cyber upgrade don't need cash, they need advances).

[Xervous]

Oh, now I got yet another question! This time regarding Karma.

So, when reading the rules about character progression, one thing I immediately wanted to change was the exponential Karma cost increase in regards to attributes and skills. Since build points during character creation is linear, I want Karma to be the same (well, one way would be to make the opposite change I guess). That's basically something I do with every system that has a difference between creation and progression (one being linear, the other exponential).

However, I don't know how this interacts with other parts of the system - like for example spell costs. Do I need to adjust the cost of spells accordingly (e.g. down)? Is there anything you can buy during character progression that you could NOT buy during character creation? Otherwise I could simply award build points instead of karma (or equate the two).

Cut off the problem at the source and go with karma build, karma advancement. BP promotes lopsided characters while karma makes broad baseline proficiency cheaper. BP is just begging people to minmax since you have linear costs for quadratic consistency gains.

[Ignimortis]

Oh, now I got yet another question! This time regarding Karma.

So, when reading the rules about character progression, one thing I immediately wanted to change was the exponential Karma cost increase in regards to attributes and skills. Since build points during character creation is linear, I want Karma to be the same (well, one way would be to make the opposite change I guess). That's basically something I do with every system that has a difference between creation and progression (one being linear, the other exponential).

However, I don't know how this interacts with other parts of the system - like for example spell costs. Do I need to adjust the cost of spells accordingly (e.g. down)? Is there anything you can buy during character progression that you could NOT buy during character creation? Otherwise I could simply award build points instead of karma (or equate the two).

It's easier to replace BP with karma than the other way around. As far as I can recall, 4e and 5e karmagen is about equal — a proper good build in BP/Priorities is worth about 900 karma for standard chargen. However, do not double qualities' cost while moving from BP to karma (at least during chargen), unlike Runner's Companion suggests - it makes picking up any qualities almost a trap proposition, because they aren't worth THAT much. For qualities, it's better to keep them 1:1 in regards to BP to karma cost conversion.

[Lorsa]

I already figured out that replacing karma with BP means reducing the rewards to achieve a similar progression.

However, it seems that many of you think that even if I do that, it would be better to use karma at chargen instead? So, what are the arguments for this? As far as I can tell, using karma would make it cheaper/easier to be a generalist compared to a specialist. But that's about it?

[Ignimortis]

I already figured out that replacing karma with BP means reducing the rewards to achieve a similar progression.

However, it seems that many of you think that even if I do that, it would be better to use karma at chargen instead? So, what are the arguments for this? As far as I can tell, using karma would make it cheaper/easier to be a generalist compared to a specialist. But that's about it?

The thing is, karma is used for everything in the game past chargen, and as such, it's easier to adjust the chargen to it than the game to BP. Also, karmagen is fairer in the sense that it doesn't favour minmaxing while making it easier to make a generalist or at least someone who's competent in a few things, and not feel robbed.

Frankly, using linear costs for everything just means that getting five 2s and three 6s in stats (200 BP or 350 karma for comparison) will cost the same as getting four 3s and four 4s (same 200 BP but only 280 karma). First of those characters is evidently better at most things they're supposed to do (since the game itself encourages specialization), and thus should, probably, pay more?

[Xervous]

I already figured out that replacing karma with BP means reducing the rewards to achieve a similar progression.

However, it seems that many of you think that even if I do that, it would be better to use karma at chargen instead? So, what are the arguments for this? As far as I can tell, using karma would make it cheaper/easier to be a generalist compared to a specialist. But that's about it?

BP -> karma progression reduces build space because players are incentivized to min/max at Chargen to milk out extra karma equivalent.

BP-> BP prog runs into a similar state you see of D&D where, since boosting main stat or tertiary stat costs the same, you just lump everything onto your good stat and end up with a polarized caricature.

Karma -> karma prog puts a proper weight on specialization that is proportional to its reward.

Players are going to specialize regardless. If Bob wants to play a brick wall troll street sam that’s what he’s playing. Karma makes it so he might consider picking up cheap entry level stuff on the side to broaden the character’s potential for interactions, rather than just being a living artillery piece.

[Delta]

That's the thing, in Shadowrun, you don't need an incentive to specialize, the game does that by itself, you're a professional criminal specialist by definition. But when using Karma for everything, the guy who also wants to give his Mage a couple points in computer stuff or maybe able to be moderately competent at driving a car doesn't have to feel like he's seriously hamstringing his character just because of a bit of fluff.

[LibraryOgre]

So, earlier Shadowrun (1e & 2e, I know) had the option to buy a gang or followers with beginning funds... it was ridiculously expensive, but you could have up to 5 archetypes who would work for you, and 1d6+1 who would show up at your beck and call for 200k nuyen. You could also have a Gang, which would give you 2d6 people at any one time, but they only had 3s in attributes and skills.

Anyone ever do this?

EDIT: Another question, especially for 2e: What do you do if someone picks a nuisance-level allergy? In theory, it should be more than "free points", but there's not much mechanics associated with nuisance level.

[druid91]

Yup. One of my players persuaded me that energy weapons (lasers, tasers) should work, not quite sure if that's RAW. I assume the fluff to critters with Immunity to Normal Weapons being affected by a bunch of .45 rounds is that the use of those has at least a minimal psychic imprint on them. Or somesuch crap like that.

Would be nice if they actually added Immunity to Normal Weapons to the spirits' entries in SR4. It's not in the 20A edition, at least.

So Lasers and Tasers work better than actual bullets because both lasers and tasers cut your armor in half, regardless of what it is. This *includes* immunity to normal weapons because at the end of the day it's just hardened armor. It doesn't *entirely* work. It just works better than regular bullets.

In the end, it's still better to just use magical junk to kill them....

That being said, the idea of a Qabbalistic mage binding minor spirits of fire into individual bullets for a gauss rifle or assault cannon before using the now magical bullets to wreck a spirits day amuses me.

Though speaking of binding spirits into things. I'm curious, does anyone know of a good base boat to mod into something like an age of sail ship A-La the Pirates of the Caribbean? There's a vehicle mod that turns the vessel into a sailing ship and I'm looking to start a savings fund in a game I'm in to put towards building a ship for my would-be-Ghost Pirate runner. In the end I want to make it the vessel for an ally spirit and basically make up for the archaic format of the vehicle by chocking it full of magic.

[comicshorse]

EDIT: Another question, especially for 2e: What do you do if someone picks a nuisance-level allergy? In theory, it should be more than "free points", but there's not much mechanics associated with nuisance level.

Yeah the only thing 'nuisance' allergies says is its annoying but has 'no game effect'. Quite frankly the Allergies thing is optional anyway. Either ban it or simply make the P.C.s take it to a point where it has actual game effect rather than as an excuse to game points out of you.
Obviously that's if they expect to get points for it. If they just want to take a Nuisance allergy because they think its funny their 8 foot, slab of bone and muscle, Troll street samurai is allergic to cats and goes all puffy in the face when near one because its funny then good on them

[Xervous]

Yeah the only thing 'nuisance' allergies says is its annoying but has 'no game effect'. Quite frankly the Allergies thing is optional anyway. Either ban it or simply make the P.C.s take it to a point where it has actual game effect rather than as an excuse to game points out of you.
Obviously that's if they expect to get points for it. If they just want to take a Nuisance allergy because they think its funny their 8 foot, slab of bone and muscle, Troll street samurai is allergic to cats and goes all puffy in the face when near one because its funny then good on them

But isn’t there usually a SURGE cat girl in the party?

[comicshorse]

But isn’t there usually a SURGE cat girl in the party?

Which is why you should be suspicious when the Troll is ALWAYS puffy in the face

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I admit I once took a minor allergy to Fresh Fruit in a 5e game. It started when my character was a walking Monty Python joke (as in, he was literally a philosophy professor called Bruce), but then I retooled him to be a walking "Keep and Arm Bears" joke instead and it stuck around.