General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

[Lord Torath]

Shock weapons do Stun damage and, as far as I'm aware, vehicles just don't take stun damage so they are going to do nothing at all to vehicles. After all you can't stun a car.

Against a Juggernaut its Hardened armour acts as a Barrier Rating which means if the power of the weapon does not exceed the Barrier Rating it does NO damage. If the Juggernaut has Hardened Armour of 8 that means you need a Power 9 weapon to have any chance of hurting it and I don't think there are any Power 9 shock weapons.

Incidentally any PC who uses a shock weapon on a Juggernaut deserves, IMHO, a round of applause from the table for his valiant, if very brief, act of bravery

Okay, pretend we're attacking a Behemoth. Body:10 Hardened Armor: 4. Or a human wearing Military Grade Heavy armor. Is the hardened armor halved (along with the body armor in the case of the Behemoth) against Shock weapons?

[comicshorse]

Okay, pretend we're attacking a Behemoth. Body:10 Hardened Armor: 4. Or a human wearing Military Grade Heavy armor. Is the hardened armor halved (along with the body armor in the case of the Behemoth) against Shock weapons?

Ah Shadowrun, how I love the background, how I hate the rules.
From flicking through my books I really can't find rules for how Heavy Armour effects shock weapons. However one of the modifications available for Military Grade Heavy armour in the 'Cannon Companion' is to make it non-conductive against shock attacks so I'd say that indicates a weakness to them. So I'd say halve the Hardened Armour YMMV

[Misereor]

5.ed. question:
A mage hurls a lightning ball spell at a car carrying a bunch of policlubbers. What happens?
The car is resting on 4 rubber wheels, and the metal parts of the chassis act like a lightning rod, so does nothing happen? Do the electronics get fried? Do the passengers take some sort of damage after barrier reduction?

[jindra34]

5.ed. question:
A mage hurls a lightning ball spell at a car carrying a bunch of policlubbers. What happens?
The car is resting on 4 rubber wheels, and the metal parts of the chassis act like a lightning rod, so does nothing happen? Do the electronics get fried? Do the passengers take some sort of damage after barrier reduction?

Well start by tossing all the real world physics expectations out the window. Second, given what is described with suppressive fire everyone inside the car and the area of ball lightning would take damage as if the car wasn't there... there was a note in my last team that vehicles are more moving inevitable death traps than anything else.

[Telok]

I seem to recall 2nd or 3rd having a taser-ized spike strip specifically to fryolate cars. You could check for that.

[Lord Torath]

5.ed. question:
A mage hurls a lightning ball spell at a car carrying a bunch of policlubbers. What happens?
The car is resting on 4 rubber wheels, and the metal parts of the chassis act like a lightning rod, so does nothing happen? Do the electronics get fried? Do the passengers take some sort of damage after barrier reduction?

Just as far as real-world physics is concerned, rubber tires do squat when it comes to protecting against lightning. A lightning bolt that's traveled through miles of air is not going to be stopped by four inches of rubber. The reason you are generally safe in your car is that electricity flows around the outside of a conductor rather than through the middle of it. As long as you don't touch the frame of your car, you should be safe. You know, assuming you're not in a convertible.

As soon as magic gets involved, though, all bets are off.

[Andrewmoreton]

IIRC If the lightning bolt is a manipulation spell it hits the vehicle and does damage as per the normal rules for shooting at a vehicle, it the people in the vehicle are behind a barrier they are safe from the direct effect of the spell unless it breaches the barrier, the same as if a Grenade hit the vehicle.

If it is a combat spell if they are in LOS of the casting mage everything visible to the mage gets hit by the Lightning ball , the vehicle and all visible gangers. This is way all vehicles in Shadowrun have tinted windows opaque from the outside and why you should not lean out of the window to shoot at a mage but instead have a firing port installed so you can fire out without giving the mage LOS

[Dimers]

I think I just found an unintended cheat in 4th-ed. The Data Bomb program can be set to crash the node it's protecting. So you hack in and you set the bomb on the node you just hacked. Then any later time you want to crash the node, just have an Agent or virus or whatever go say 'hi' to it. The bomb's crash function seems to work automatically, no contest needed.

Anybody want to disabuse me of this foolish notion?

[DigoDragon]

I think I just found an unintended cheat in 4th-ed. The Data Bomb program can be set to crash the node it's protecting. So you hack in and you set the bomb on the node you just hacked. Then any later time you want to crash the node, just have an Agent or virus or whatever go say 'hi' to it. The bomb's crash function seems to work automatically, no contest needed.

Anybody want to disabuse me of this foolish notion?

I recall running a game where the hacker did that. It's like setting a trap, but one you know of and can set off yourself. Unless the system's security finds it first and has some ability to disable it, it's legit. It's a helpful trick against security when your team is leaving the scene. Crash their camera network or communication if it's tied to a central command station/operator.

[Misereor]

Ok, I read up on it some more, and I think I'm starting to figure it out.
Ball Lightning is not a mana spell, so you can't make it manifest inside the vehicle even if you have LoS to the passengers. The spell emanates from the caster and travels to the target.
Normally you would target either the car or the passengers, then resolve either an attack vs vehicle which doesn't hurt the passengers, or an attack vs the passengers in which the vehicle acts as a barrier and/or cover depending on circumstance. However, seeing as this is an area spell (force 10 in this instance), both vehicle and passengers are in the Area of Effect and take damage (passengers get barrier/cover depending on windscreen/chassis rating), and I have to resolve both.
(I'm also thinking of going back to 2nd edition...)

[Lord Torath]

Ok, I read up on it some more, and I think I'm starting to figure it out.
Ball Lightning is not a mana spell, so you can't make it manifest inside the vehicle even if you have LoS to the passengers. The spell emanates from the caster and travels to the target.
Normally you would target either the car or the passengers, then resolve either an attack vs vehicle which doesn't hurt the passengers, or an attack vs the passengers in which the vehicle acts as a barrier and/or cover depending on circumstance. However, seeing as this is an area spell (force 10 in this instance), both vehicle and passengers are in the Area of Effect and take damage (passengers get barrier/cover depending on windscreen/chassis rating), and I have to resolve both.
(I'm also thinking of going back to 2nd edition...)

You can, however, have an elemental or ally spirit Manifest inside the car.

I had a 2E mage with a familiar that could cast Stunbolt, and had three forms - human, tiger, and tabby cat. Manifest inside the car as a kitten near their feet (they're likely not watching their feet, but whatever's going on outside the car), stunbolt them into unconsciousness, then take human form and drive the car (yes, also gave it the Car skill).

[Lord Torath]

Do drones count as "Military Grade" or "Civilian" vehicles for the purposes of hardpoints per Body Rating? The (1E) Rigger Black Book says Military vehicles get 1 hard point per 1.5 points of Body, while Civilian vehicles get 1 per 2 points of Body. Something like a Doberman, Dalmatian, or Wandjina strikes me as a Military vehicle.

[LibraryOgre]

Do drones count as "Military Grade" or "Civilian" vehicles for the purposes of hardpoints per Body Rating? The (1E) Rigger Black Book says Military vehicles get 1 hard point per 1.5 points of Body, while Civilian vehicles get 1 per 2 points of Body. Something like a Doberman, Dalmatian, or Wandjina strikes me as a Military vehicle.

I'd vary it based on the frame. Specifically security and military frames will count as military.

[Lord Torath]

I'd vary it based on the frame. Specifically security and military frames will count as military.

So the Gaz-Niki Snoop, AZT Crawler, and S-B Microskimmer all probably count as Civilian drones. Everything else is probably Military/Security. The Condor (and Condor II) are probably commonly used by the military, but strike me as very much not designed to max out weapon mounts, so I'd class them as Civilian.

Another question: Did any edition ever stat up Thermite? How quickly it burns, and how it compares to, says, C-4, C-6, and C-12? Sometimes you want to burn through something without a loud blast...

[LibraryOgre]

So the Gaz-Niki Snoop, AZT Crawler, and S-B Microskimmer all probably count as Civilian drones. Everything else is probably Military/Security. The Condor (and Condor II) are probably commonly used by the military, but strike me as very much not designed to max out weapon mounts, so I'd class them as Civilian.

Another question: Did any edition ever stat up Thermite? How quickly it burns, and how it compares to, says, C-4, C-6, and C-12? Sometimes you want to burn through something without a loud blast...

Gahhhhh... I know it was mentioned in Fields of Fire (2e), but I don't recall stats ever been published.

[JustIgnoreMe]

SR3 question. 2062. I'm a human rigger. I need a shadow-polite way of discouraging people from messing with me when I'm not in the van, just walking around. Not an "instant death to approach" method, but a "find an easier victim" method.

My first thought was (of course) an armed drone, but I'm struggling to think of a small enough drone that can carry a big enough punch. Also, my remote control deck is not cranial, so I'd be looking for something that can simply follow me (or be carried I suppose) and can fire on targets I designate.

Any suggestions as to how I'd go about this? And what sort of flaws there are that could lead to this working against me?

[Lord Torath]

An AZ-150 Super-Stun Baton hung from your belt. Can you use it? Doesn't really matter. Helps if you can, but just having one will warn people away.

I'm not certain on the legality of carrying one, but it's non-lethal, which should keep Lone Star's/Knight Errant's eyes on the guys carrying more dangerous weapons.

Edit: Legality is 5-C (Intent - Clubs/Shock Weapons). You can legally own one, transport it as desired, and openly carry it. You can even use it on non-human/metahumans - dogs, rats, etc¹. Just don't get caught actually using it on a human/metahuman!

1. At least as I understand the Shadowrun legal codes...

[Telok]

Several of my old characters went with (depending on the time, place, and customer) a shock glove, a dud grenade, and/or a smg/big pistol. Because you're really talking about intimidation as much as you are about firepower.

[Lord Torath]

Alternatively, get a big dog. Probably cost you 2,000¥ per year to take care of, and probably another 2,000¥ to purchase. Snag a Special Skill: Dog Training and teach it to behave.

[comicshorse]

If you've got the money you can always cyber them up a bit for that edge. But don't cyber paranaturals, they don't respond well to it

Cyberpunk had rules for robotic hounds for the police which a Rigger in a game I was in adapted to produce his own. Minimal intelligence programming but they knew what he meant when he pointed at someone and said 'Kill' ! Or 'Hold' as he packed a net gun into them.

3ed doesn't have a Flaw system but the problem with threatening someone with a gun/drone/dog/shock club is that someone will decide they REALLY want said item and try to back stab you for it one dark night
Or the idiot Ganger you cause to back down in public turns out to be the nephew of the local Don who decides that his nephew being humiliated reflects badly on him and so something must be done to regain the face his lost. Something you're character won't like

[LibraryOgre]

If you've got the money you can always cyber them up a bit for that edge. But don't cyber paranaturals, they don't respond well to it

Cyberpunk had rules for robotic hounds for the police which a Rigger in a game I was in adapted to produce his own. Minimal intelligence programming but they knew what he meant when he pointed at someone and said 'Kill' ! Or 'Hold' as he packed a net gun into them.

The Writer: Now he said, "Sic'em, boy!" But what I heard was, "Chopper! Sic balls!

Just sayin'... if you've got a robotic dog, you've got options.

[DigoDragon]

a dud grenade

Careful about openly carrying one of those. Lonestar does NOT like filling out the associated paperwork dealing with one.


On the flip side, I ran for a group that would cut open cans of beer, replace the liquid with plastic explosives, and reseal them with a detonator cap that will go off when you pull the can tab. It was a marvel of engineering (and I'm pretty sure a war crime in most countries). It was a pretty insidious method for getting rid of street gangs that wandered close to the teams safe house.

[JustIgnoreMe]

An AZ-150 Super-Stun Baton hung from your belt. Can you use it? Doesn't really matter. Helps if you can, but just having one will warn people away.

Can use it. Had one (well, a regular Stun Baton, but same applies). Had to use it. Worked just fine, but I'd rather not be in that position again.

Several of my old characters went with (depending on the time, place, and customer) a shock glove, a dud grenade, and/or a smg/big pistol. Because you're really talking about intimidation as much as you are about firepower.

Yeah, I'm not so much intimidating to look at. And the Ares Pred 3 is in a concealed holster. I suppose I could carry it openly where appropriate, but I'm not convinced it would help.

Alternatively, get a big dog. Probably cost you 2,000¥ per year to take care of, and probably another 2,000¥ to purchase. Snag a Special Skill: Dog Training and teach it to behave.

That's not a bad idea. Probably an extra 10% to Lifestyle (like supporting an Dependent). You can probably already buy trained dogs, although I'd love a book and page number (probably in one of the Paranormal Animals books: if you can train a paranatural, you can train a natural). On the other hand, it's an easy way to identify the character (Distinctive Style Flaw: takes a really big dog on runs) and it will leave Material Links everywhere.

Cyberpunk had rules for robotic hounds for the police which a Rigger in a game I was in adapted to produce his own. Minimal intelligence programming but they knew what he meant when he pointed at someone and said 'Kill' ! Or 'Hold' as he packed a net gun into them.

That's sounding like a custom-designed Robot with an appropriate Pool. Probably beyond my abilities to create, probably beyond my resources to buy.

3ed doesn't have a Flaw system but the problem with threatening someone with a gun/drone/dog/shock club is that someone will decide they REALLY want said item

The potential flaws in the drone idea are that someone will take over my network and fly it off. Solution would be to not have it remote-capable and so not on any network, which means programming it with simple tasks and commands in advance, right? That's possible, isn't it?

I remember seeing a post on Dumpshock where someone fitted tiny rockets to a spy-drone (the centipede one, I think), but the tiny rockets are from SOTA 2063, so currently not available.

[Lord Torath]

That's not a bad idea. Probably an extra 10% to Lifestyle (like supporting an Dependent). You can probably already buy trained dogs, although I'd love a book and page number (probably in one of the Paranormal Animals books: if you can train a paranatural, you can train a natural). On the other hand, it's an easy way to identify the character (Distinctive Style Flaw: takes a really big dog on runs) and it will leave Material Links everywhere.

Oh, this is for while on a run? I just figured you needed it in everyday life. Not all of us can live on Council Island, after all. While on the run, just stay close to the Street Sammy, or stay in your van, and send a Doberman/Steel Lynx.

I suppose much of this really depends on your role in the average Run. I (once I figured out how to Rigger right) used my drones to scope out the site beforehand (Condor LTA drone, Gaz-Niki Snoop), and then send in a combat drone from the safety of my armored Bulldog. If there was no easy way to get a drone in (making a roof-top insertion, and no one wants to lug my Steel Lynx to the roof), I'd stay out and keep watch for off-site reinforcements.

What do you do during your runs that you need a Keep Away sign to hand? What role do you play?

Are you trying to Intimidate them into leaving you alone, or non-lethally disable them?

Would a Yamaha Pulsar Taser be helpful? Narcojet Pistol/Rifle? One player I know has a Decker with a Walther MA-2100 Sniper Rifle loaded with Gel Rounds (hits at 12S Stun). A Berret Model 121 is even better (12D stun) if you can get one (but 5.5 kg more massive, too). IPE Concussion grenades are useful - if loud - in this regard as well.

[JustIgnoreMe]

No, it's not for on a run, but the character lives alone and where am I going to find a dog-sitter? :)
Responsible pet owner, yo.

Edit to add: all the advice is much appreciated, by the way. I basically want something to make gangers at Crime Mall keep their distance. A large dog or equivalent seems perfect, if I can just work out the logistics. It's an intimidation tool that no-one will want to try to steal (as opposed to a Barrett-50 which will just attract muggers).

[Lord Torath]

Well, doggie hotels are a thing. Whenever you have a run that'll last more than 24 hours onsite (anything less, and your well-trained dog should be fine on his own), check Fluffy in to the hotel. Cost you maybe 150¥ a night.

Do you have an Encephalon or Chipjack? Get a Dog Training Knowsoft, and train your pooch to be just the most obedient dog ever!

[Spookykid]

Wear dual katanas and maybe some shoulder pads or bulky jacket to buff you up? Fake cyberwear?

[Lord Torath]

Wear dual katanas <snip>

Nah. Wearing twin katanas is just begging any and all wannabe aspiring street samurai within 100 km to challenge you. Who needs all that noise? Plus, you don't want Lone Star/Knight Errant coming after you for very visible deadly weapons.

Seriously, just get a big dog.

[Telok]

Got it. A weed wacker.

Get a modestly durable model. Beat an animal/ganger down with it to bloody it up. Carry it around with a big grin.

They should know better than to mess with a crazy.

[Lord Torath]

My Brain is refusing to help here. Where are the costs (1E/2E) for converting a standard weapon for use on a vehicle hard/firmpoint found?

I've been all over the Rigger Black Book, and I haven't been able to find it in the 2E Rulebook, either.

Thanks in advance!